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tenpercentfirearms
08-21-2008, 9:59 PM
Ok, this thread has me inspired.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=116164&page=2

There is obviously a problem of FFL dealers not processing PPTs as they should. Further these FFLs also try to charge more than they are legally required. The cap is clearly set at $35. PERIOD.

So why don't the members of Calguns make a PPT application that clearly shows what a dealer can charge and when a dealer must perform a PPT.

The rationale behind this is that since the citizens of this state are required to conduct a PPT through a dealer, we shouldn't just accept that some dealers do the PPT correct and we should only deal with those dealers. You should not have to drive an extra 2 hours or even 10 minutes to deal with a friendly PPT dealer. You should receive a service that dealers are required to perform.

So here is what we need in our application.

#1: The Penal Code and CCR section dealing with PPTs.

PC 12072(d) - Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082. 12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

In regards to 12082(b) you have CCR 4033.

§ 4033. Criteria for Processing Section 12082 Transactions.


(a) All dealers shall process a section 12082 transaction upon the request of the transferor. All such requests shall:

(1) Be in writing and contain all of the terms of the transaction, and


(2) Be signed by the transferor and the transferee.


(b) Except as otherwise provided in Penal Code section 12082, a dealer shall process a section 12082 transaction in the same manner as if it were a dealer retail sale.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12082, Penal Code. Reference: Section 12071, 12072, 12073, 12076 and 12077, Penal Code.

#2: The only way FFLs can balk on this is if the transferor does not make the written request that contains all terms of the transaction. We need to collectively come up with what "all terms of the transaction" includes and insert them in our paper. We also need to have a signature section for both the buyer and seller.

#3: I would like include the DOJs phone number on this form and I want Calgunners to call the DOJ at the gun shop if the gun shop refuses to do a PPT.

So here is what I am seeing.

Page 1: The relevant code with prices and requirement to process on written request highlight or bolded.

Page 2: An actual application style format where anyone could fill out the appropriate boxes and hand it over to an FFL so they are required to process the PPT. Also on this page something with teeth to help persuade dealers that they will be reported to the DOJ if they fail to process the request.

We might even be so bold as to have me use my contacts in the DOJ and find out if someone there actually cares about this. We might be able to use their direct line and actually use the DOJ support for this.

Some people might not like that we are going to hold FFL's feet to the fire on this. Personally, I think it is unacceptable that you have to do a PPT and many dealers put up so many obstacles in completing one. Dealers know they are going to have to do PPTs when they sign up to get their FFL. They should stop shirking their responsibility and I don't care the reasons they complain about it.

So lets do this. Lets make something along the lines of the AW Chart that we can publish and circulate and start to make a difference in this state.

CavTrooper
08-21-2008, 10:08 PM
Im waiting for someone else to say it.

ChessRatz
08-21-2008, 10:27 PM
Im waiting for someone else to say it.
OK Cav, I'll say it... Wes, there seems to be something wrong with this...
The cap is clearly set at $45. PERIOD. It was a long post and a lot of information gathering, so we'll just laugh with you :rofl2:

Edited to add: This is a great idea and I can't wait for the look on the face of the next dealer with misinformation about PPT's.

CenterX
08-21-2008, 10:38 PM
Ok,

There is obviously a problem of FFL dealers not processing PPTs as they should. Further these FFLs also try to charge more than they are legally required. The cap is clearly set at $45. PERIOD.



$25 for the DOJ documentation fee on a hand gun and $10 for the FFL = $35

$45?

M. Sage
08-21-2008, 10:42 PM
$25 for the DOJ documentation fee on a hand gun and $10 for the FFL = $35

$45?

New math.

Hmm... if I knew how the hell to operate this computer for anything more than forums and video games, I'd give it a go!

aplinker
08-21-2008, 11:05 PM
I think this is a good idea. I've been enraged by seeing how Rettings (not just in this thread, but what I've seen when in the shop) treats people for PPTs.

________________________

Relevant items that (potentially) should be on the request form:

1.) Names of parties involved (buyer/seller)
2.) addresses/contact info of parties involved
3.) Make, model, barrel length, finish and SN of gun
4.) price paid
5.) Signatures
6.) date

Anything that should be added? Removed?

I think the firearm details are important as they're a part of the DROS. I can't remember if there's additional info recorded.

blackberg
08-21-2008, 11:22 PM
$25 for the DOJ documentation fee on a hand gun and $10 for the FFL = $35

$45?

He's a Bruin...what do you expect? :D












do I hear football around the corner :p

-bb

tenpercentfirearms
08-21-2008, 11:46 PM
I was watching soccer and was thinking, "Should I go back and edit this?" No, screw it. DOH!

Well it is fixed now. Just seeing if you guys were paying attention. Plus I had to add a bunch of products to the website that I have been slacking on.

Leave me alone, I am a busy man.

All your base are belong to us.

Two weeks.

Librarian
08-21-2008, 11:57 PM
I think this is a good idea. I've been enraged by seeing how Rettings (not just in this thread, but what I've seen when in the shop) treats people for PPTs.

________________________

Relevant items that (potentially) should be on the request form:

1.) Names of parties involved (buyer/seller)
2.) addresses/contact info of parties involved
3.) Make, model, barrel length, finish and SN of gun
4.) price paid
5.) Signatures
6.) date

Anything that should be added? Removed?

I think the firearm details are important as they're a part of the DROS. I can't remember if there's additional info recorded.
I think, because they're already part of the DROS, firearms details and addresses are not needed on the extra form. The CCR does require the signatures, so a printed name to go with that makes sense.

How about this for a first draft?

aplinker
08-22-2008, 1:04 AM
I think, because they're already part of the DROS, firearms details and addresses are not needed on the extra form. The CCR does require the signatures, so a printed name to go with that makes sense.

How about this for a first draft?

Nice 1st draft.

The reason for including the firearm details is to eliminate any question of having sufficient "transaction details" - which could include all of the pertinent details regarding the firearm to be transferred (i.e., anything on the DROS) and method of payment.

allenst65
08-22-2008, 3:51 AM
Seems all a bit redundant when you could just print out the DOJ's readily available worksheet which includes the requisite info, fill it out and hand it to your dealer saying we want to PPT this ...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf

Oh well, some kids need a canvas for their crayons.

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2008, 6:17 AM
Seems all a bit redundant when you could just print out the DOJ's readily available worksheet which includes the requisite info, fill it out and hand it to your dealer saying we want to PPT this ...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf

Oh well, some kids need a canvas for their crayons.

I already responded to this in the other thread, so here is a cut and paste.

First the only purpose of a dealer's worksheet is to have DROS information when you are at a guns how or your computer goes down and you can't submit the information while the customer(s) are there with you. You fill out the DROS worksheet only if you have to and never if you don't.

A dealer's worksheet is about the worst thing you could hand a gun dealer if you want to force them to run your PPT. #1: it does not even educate the FFL that they must perform a PPT nor what the maximum fee they may charge is. #2: it does not contain all terms of the transaction. #3: the DROS worksheet is pointless if you run the DROS through electronically. #4: I as a dealer would simply throw it away and tell you as I laugh, "Sorry, try again, this isn't a form that applies and you obviously don't know what you are talking about, no PPT for you today. Now get lost."

Not to mention even if I did accept it or if a dealer wanted to use a DROS worksheet, it is just one more piece of paper to add to my stack of papers. No thanks. I give away free gun locks just to avoid having to have a safe affidavit hanging around.

Seriously, if you want to get laughed out of a gun shop, hand them a DROS worksheet period. Most dealers out there should know exactly what the form is and they are going to not want to touch it because it is one more piece of paperwork that is absolutely unecessary when DROS is submitted electronically. Handing this to a dealer pretty much tells them you definitely don't know what you are talking about and will not convince them they should have to do your PPT.

Again, the idea of this project is to force dealers who are reluctant to run your PPT on your demand. These dealers are charging more than they are supposed to and they are refusing PPTs during certain times of the day. The law is clear that they must perform them on written request and the fee is never to exceed $35. However, they think they know the law and they are going to be stubborn. You are going to have to have clear proof of your case right then and there on the spot and not only that, you must comply with the law by having a written request with all terms of the transaction.

The DROS worksheet is not the answer and not by a long shot. Some people think crayons are going to solve this. We need a Mona Lisa or you will be told to go back to the Romper Room.

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2008, 6:34 AM
I think, because they're already part of the DROS, firearms details and addresses are not needed on the extra form. The CCR does require the signatures, so a printed name to go with that makes sense.

How about this for a first draft?

A good start. I think it is important we keep all parts of the PC and CCR in there instead of editing some of it out. I like the part where it says the AG can make regulations and then we show the regulations.

We should probably have a few more details in there like which guns and maybe even selling price. The question is, if we include selling price, will the stupid dealer try to say they need to collect sales tax and will we need to reference tax code to make sure they can't do that too?

To help with the guns part and for the rest of you who like to buy more than one gun at a time, here is the info we need with maybe just a selling price column added in.

Librarian
08-22-2008, 11:28 AM
I am persuaded about the firearms info - the Part D stuff.

The couple of PPTs I've done, the dealer didn't even want to know the price - I think that needs some more discussion. One could add a "$______________" after or under the CASH option.

There's certainly room for the whole PC section - I envision that as the back of the form, if printed double sided - but all the stuff about returning a gun if the background check fails on the transferee is just clutter - the dealer already knows that. But putting back the indication of (b), for regulations, and all of (c) and (d) seems to make sense. Shoves it all to a whole page, though. My old eyes just don't like 'fine print', but the font could be smaller.

Draft 2

383green
08-22-2008, 11:49 AM
Is the price really relevant, anyway, or even the "Transaction Type" and "Terms" fields? The FFL is processing a transfer of ownership, but a transfer doesn't necessarily need to be a sale or trade of like value. One person could simply be giving the firearm(s) to the other person as a gift. Is there anywhere in the DROS or 4473 where the FFL needs to enter the nature of the transfer and/or the value in trade?

gunsnrovers
08-22-2008, 11:59 AM
Price is not an issue. This is a transfer of ownership, not a sale.

As goofy as they can be sometimes with some of their stuff, I really do like the additional form Turners puts out with their PPT's. Includes a lot of information on the gun, any included accessories, and rating of condition.

Finish, barrel length, country of origin, etc.

Good reference paperwork to have when you pick it up.

Adonlude
08-22-2008, 1:47 PM
If a dealer blatantly commits a misdemeanor by refusing a PPT cant you call the police over to issue a citation? Police do enforce the PC/CCR don't they, isn't that pretty much their entire job?

Librarian
08-22-2008, 1:48 PM
Is the price really relevant, anyway, or even the "Transaction Type" and "Terms" fields? The FFL is processing a transfer of ownership, but a transfer doesn't necessarily need to be a sale or trade of like value. One person could simply be giving the firearm(s) to the other person as a gift. Is there anywhere in the DROS or 4473 where the FFL needs to enter the nature of the transfer and/or the value in trade?
If you go back to the first post in the thread, the included CCR says a PPT doc must
(1) Be in writing and contain all of the terms of the transaction, and

We're still working out what 'all the terms' is supposed to include, but remember this is IN ADDITION to the DROS and 4473, to clarify a PPT transaction so a dealer knows what to do.

I agree, a gift is also possible. I'm of the opinion that sale/trade/gift is a necessary 'term' in this context.

We could also get a transaction like
"Librarian has a Raven, a Lorcin, and a Davis, all in .25, and he is trading them and a Starbuck's Vente Latte for 383green's Wilson Combat .45" (I wish :) ) or
"Librarian has a Raven, a Lorcin, and a Davis, all in .25, and he is trading them all to 383green for a dozen fresh quail eggs and a sixpack of Anchor Porter" (probably closer to the value).

I suppose one could use the old real estate dodge, "for one dollar and other valuable consideration", though I think that's frowned upon these days.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 1:50 PM
How about a web application that ANYONE can get to? I've been wanting to do an interactive cgi of the AW flowchart for install on calguns. Interested?

383green
08-22-2008, 1:55 PM
If you go back to the first post in the thread, the included CCR says a PPT doc must [...]

My bad. DURR! :stuart:


I agree, a gift is also possible. I'm of the opinion that sale/trade/gift is a necessary 'term' in this context.

Yes, I agree.

We could also get a transaction like
"Librarian has a Raven, a Lorcin, and a Davis, all in .25, and he is trading them and a Starbuck's Vente Latte for 383green's Wilson Combat .45"

How did you know that I have a Starbucks habit like a monkey on my back, and drink a danged venti latte every danged day?! :TFH::hide:

hawk1
08-22-2008, 2:07 PM
After you have this "ppt application" and present it to the FFL, whats to stop him from saying, "sorry, no PPT's today or until I have enough room in my safe to accommodate them". ie, what DOJ bust did to the Milpitas buy.

Assuming he really didn't want to do them he has a legal out with this excuse. Can also make it sound as if DOJ is stopping him from doing them.

If not, please explain why?

Librarian
08-22-2008, 2:26 PM
How about a web application that ANYONE can get to? I've been wanting to do an interactive cgi of the AW flowchart for install on calguns. Interested?

I think it's an interesting idea, if outside my skill set.

I was wondering how we could be flexible in producing something like me trading three guns to you for two different guns; that looks like it needs 5 distinct firearm description blocks with identification of which gun goes to which party.

It'd also cost $50 for the PPT (5 guns @$10 each) and I have no idea how one would DROS such a transaction.

Librarian
08-22-2008, 2:28 PM
My bad. DURR! :stuart:
How did you know that I have a Starbucks habit like a monkey on my back, and drink a danged venti latte every danged day?! :TFH::hide:

You mean I could keep the Lorcin? :cool2:

383green
08-22-2008, 2:29 PM
I was wondering how we could be flexible in producing something like me trading three guns to you for two different guns; that looks like it needs 5 distinct firearm description blocks with identification of which gun goes to which party.

It'd also cost $50 for the PPT (5 guns @$10 each) and I have no idea how one would DROS such a transaction.

Wouldn't there need to be a separate DROS for each of the two parties, since both are receiving guns? I'd think that would make the total cost $100 ($25 + $25 + 5x$10).

383green
08-22-2008, 2:31 PM
You mean I could keep the Lorcin? :cool2:

I had to look up the Lorcin. Yeah, I think I'd rather have the latte! :smilielol5:

scootergmc
08-22-2008, 2:32 PM
Add something about redacting personal information in copies of requested paperwork given to buyers and sellers at transaction time... 12076(c)(5) PC.

aplinker
08-22-2008, 3:03 PM
I'm of the opinion the "terms" is unlikely to be an issue.

I think the BEST way to handle it would be to leave your check boxes as they are, and include an "additional info" section with lines, so if the dealer wants prices, etc, it can be added later. I think this is a case where less is really more. 99% aren't going to care the price (even the evil dealers).




We're still working out what 'all the terms' is supposed to include, but remember this is IN ADDITION to the DROS and 4473, to clarify a PPT transaction so a dealer knows what to do.

I agree, a gift is also possible. I'm of the opinion that sale/trade/gift is a necessary 'term' in this context.

We could also get a transaction like
"Librarian has a Raven, a Lorcin, and a Davis, all in .25, and he is trading them and a Starbuck's Vente Latte for 383green's Wilson Combat .45" (I wish :) ) or
"Librarian has a Raven, a Lorcin, and a Davis, all in .25, and he is trading them all to 383green for a dozen fresh quail eggs and a sixpack of Anchor Porter" (probably closer to the value).

I suppose one could use the old real estate dodge, "for one dollar and other valuable consideration", though I think that's frowned upon these days.

mikehaas
08-22-2008, 3:15 PM
How about a web application that ANYONE can get to? I've been wanting to do an interactive cgi of the AW flowchart for install on calguns. Interested?
At this link, I've thrown together the first few steps of what I meant...

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

Remember, it's only done a few questions deep. Should I continue? (When done, it should be easy to install on calguns.)

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2008, 6:18 PM
After you have this "ppt application" and present it to the FFL, whats to stop him from saying, "sorry, no PPT's today or until I have enough room in my safe to accommodate them". ie, what DOJ bust did to the Milpitas buy.

Assuming he really didn't want to do them he has a legal out with this excuse. Can also make it sound as if DOJ is stopping him from doing them.

If not, please explain why?

First, if they have guns on the wall, in display cases, or anywhere else not locked up because the building is secure, then they are lying. Second, the only people that usually have a small location where safe space is an issue aren't the ones denying PPTs to begin with. This is more of an effort for brick and mortar shops that are screwing us around.

So I would say this will be a non issue. Simply ask them if they lock the 100s of guns up that are behind the counter every night. When they say no, then remind them they do not need safe space and must process your PPT or you will be notifying the DOJ and their license can be revoked. If they say yes, tell them you think they are lying and you are reporting their misdemeanor to the Department of Justice.

At this link, I've thrown together the first few steps of what I meant...

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

Remember, it's only done a few questions deep. Should I continue? (When done, it should be easy to install on calguns.)Mike, for the AW chart, that is a good idea. For the PPT thing, probably not. We need a form that customers can take into a gun shop with them as evidence that the dealer must process the PPT.

hawk1
08-22-2008, 7:30 PM
First, if they have guns on the wall, in display cases, or anywhere else not locked up because the building is secure, then they are lying. Second, the only people that usually have a small location where safe space is an issue aren't the ones denying PPTs to begin with. This is more of an effort for brick and mortar shops that are screwing us around.

So I would say this will be a non issue. Simply ask them if they lock the 100s of guns up that are behind the counter every night. When they say no, then remind them they do not need safe space and must process your PPT or you will be notifying the DOJ and their license can be revoked. If they say yes, tell them you think they are lying and you are reporting their misdemeanor to the Department of Justice.



You may call it a non-issue but it can and will be an excuse they'll use to deny doing them and get away with it. You and the buyers application will mean squat if they say they do not have the space. Zero you can do about and zero DOJ can do about it.
As for asking him anything, he's not going to stand around and answer questions. Keep in mind they are hell bent on not doing them.
As for the DOJ, I don't think they really care if a FFL will not process a PPT. It won't be one their priorities to confirm a complaint...

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2008, 8:45 PM
You may call it a non-issue but it can and will be an excuse they'll use to deny doing them and get away with it. You and the buyers application will mean squat if they say they do not have the space. Zero you can do about and zero DOJ can do about it.
As for asking him anything, he's not going to stand around and answer questions. Keep in mind they are hell bent on not doing them.
As for the DOJ, I don't think they really care if a FFL will not process a PPT. It won't be one their priorities to confirm a complaint...
How can any retail store that uses a secure location claim they don't have space? The safe excuse will only work at shops or kitchen table operation who lock up their inventory every day. I would bet good money the little guy is not denying a PPT.

And you are assuming the DOJ doesn't care. What happens when consumers are armed with the truth and start holding FFLs accountable? What if the DOJ does care and does investigate, but no one ever calls?

We will see.

chrisdesoup
08-22-2008, 8:57 PM
Maybe I’m slow, but why would you want to force someone who obviously does not want to do business with you to do so? If someone is a jerk in a store I leave and go to another store… example: I went to Sportsmens Supply in Campbell to ask about getting a lower transferred there, the guy says they refuse to do them. Okay, now why would I want to push the issue? The guy was not a jerk and actually suggested Gun Exchange may do the transaction and told me he just did not feel comfortable with AR types…now I saw a kel-tek for sale there but whatever.

Please Educate a NooB

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2008, 9:03 PM
Maybe I’m slow, but why would you want to force someone who obviously does not want to do business with you to do so? If someone is a jerk in a store I leave and go to another store… example: I went to Sportsmens Supply in Campbell to ask about getting a lower transferred there, the guy says they refuse to do them. Okay, now why would I want to push the issue? The guy was not a jerk and actually suggested Gun Exchange may do the transaction and told me he just did not feel comfortable with AR types…now I saw a kel-tek for sale there but whatever.

Please Educate a NooB

Did you ask about a PPT or a transfer? A dealer has no requirement to do a transfer. A transfer being you ordering an OLL from gunbroker and wanting the dealer to do the background check on it. A dealer has a requirement to do a PPT. You are required to do a PPT if you are doing a face to face transaction.

If the state mandates you do a PPT and the store down the street is mandated to perform your PPT, why should you have to drive any extra miles just because a dealer doesn't feel like it?

Keep in mind we are talking $10 here. PPTs are not worth $10 (nothing a gun dealer does is worth $10 except a gun lock!). If you use someone else near your home to do a PPT instead of driving two hours to see me, I completely understand and it is not hurting me.

We should reward those that work with us with our business and our money. PPTs are not business nor money. They are a public service that FFLs agree to when they receive their license. Forcing the guy down the street to do his job is a good thing.

Trying to force someone to do your standard transfer or to order you something they don't want to is not.

ke6guj
08-22-2008, 9:07 PM
Maybe I’m slow, but why would you want to force someone who obviously does not want to do business with you to do so?Because we are being forced to take our Private Pary Transfers to an FFL so that the buyer can be DROSed. Since we are required to go to the FFL, CA requires the FFLs to process the PPT transfers (one exemption is that if a FFL does not sell handguns, they don't have to do handgun PPTs).

If any FFL can blow off PPTs, then the legal method of selling a used handgun goes bye-bye.

chrisdesoup
08-22-2008, 9:08 PM
Okay, I get it... It was a x-fer I was thinking about getting one of these lowers http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=116394 shipped to them. Just so I understand, If I wanted to buy an OLL from my buddy they are bound to process the PPT BUT if I order one from say stag they can refuse?

chrisdesoup
08-22-2008, 9:09 PM
Because we are being forced to take our Private Pary Transfers to an FFL so that the buyer can be DROSed. Since we are required to go to the FFL, CA requires the FFLs to process the PPT transfers (one exemption is that if a FFL does not sell handguns, they don't have to do handgun PPTs).

If any FFL can blow off PPTs, then the legal method of selling a used handgun goes bye-bye.

OOOOOHHHH, I get it now.... (Guess I am slow) :)

tenpercentfirearms
08-23-2008, 9:14 AM
Okay, I get it... It was a x-fer I was thinking about getting one of these lowers http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=116394 shipped to them. Just so I understand, If I wanted to buy an OLL from my buddy they are bound to process the PPT BUT if I order one from say stag they can refuse?

That is correct. Now it is going to be tricky to try and force dealers to PPT OLLs and other such firearms. Many of them still think they are illegal and don't deal with them. A dealer should not and will not transfer something they think is illegal. If they call the DOJ and the DOJ gives them some BS answer, I don't blame a dealer for not PPTing OLLs and other firearms that the DOJ refuses to acknowledge are legal.

PIRATE14
08-23-2008, 10:00 AM
We do PPT all the time, anytime but....

If a dealer makes certain restrictions on PPT.....it's thier business....run it the way they like...

Getting the gov't involved at any level is always a bad idea.......

AngelDecoys
08-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Additional.

May not be necessary but since it looks like there may be room near the bottom of the second page where you have the DOJ's phone number listed, I thought an additional item might be considered.

I think it would be powerful to list the consequences for not doing the PPT, or playing games like some additional fee, or only providing the service on certain days, etc. Consequences like possible fine, reprimand, loss of license, etc. FFL's know it already, but some seem to assume the public doesn't know or wouldn't have the information to file a complaint if needed.

I don't know, but if I was an FFL, and someone came into my shop with a form and it had the consequences with phone number to file a complaint, I might reconsider an additional $1 admin fee, or sales taxes fairly quickly.

Just a thought.

chrisdesoup
08-23-2008, 12:18 PM
I am going back and forth…. It would be nice for an FFL to have a level of discretion ie., budding gangbangers buying from his homeboys shotty…. like the ones that shoot at target masters sometimes.

Then again that same level of discretion could lead to discrimination ie, the FFL just does not like your ugly mug and tells you to piss off.

Freedom and liberty are double edged swords I guess.

383green
08-23-2008, 12:36 PM
It would be nice for an FFL to have a level of discretion ie., budding gangbangers buying from his homeboys shotty…. like the ones that shoot at target masters sometimes.

Why would a budding gangbanger go to an FFL to transfer a shotgun? The people who are most dangerous to society aren't affected by laws such as the requirement to process a firearms transfer through an FFL. Only the law-abiding citizens are affected.

We are required by law to do our PPTs through an FFL. I don't like that law, but it's the one we're stuck with at the moment. The FFL is also required by law to process that transfer, and if they are given the discretion to refuse the transfer because they don't like the way you look, or they don't want to do five minutes of work for $10 profit, or any other reason, then we are faced with a de-facto ban on firearms transfers if enough of them in a given area don't want to be bothered.

How can we be angered when a sheriff uses their discretion to deny all CCW applicants, yet not be angered when FFLs use their discretion to deny transfers? Particularly when that sheriff is given this power of discretion by law, but the FFL is compelled by law to process the transfer? If we were in a shall-issue state and a local sheriff refused to issues CCWs, we'd all be in a righteous fury. How can there be any debate when we are in a "shall-transfer" state, and the people who are required to perform those transfers refuse to do so?

I don't like getting the government involved in things any more than anybody else, but this is one of those cases where it is justified because of the situation we have been placed in by the legislature.

hawk1
08-23-2008, 1:09 PM
I am going back and forth…. It would be nice for an FFL to have a level of discretion ie., budding gangbangers buying from his homeboys shotty…. like the ones that shoot at target masters sometimes.

Then again that same level of discretion could lead to discrimination ie, the FFL just does not like your ugly mug and tells you to piss off.

Freedom and liberty are double edged swords I guess.


Very naive to think gangbangers go to FFL's to transfer firearms between themselves...:rolleyes: You've swallowed too much of the Kool Aid...

chrisdesoup
08-23-2008, 1:40 PM
Very naive to think gangbangers go to FFL's to transfer firearms between themselves...:rolleyes: You've swallowed too much of the Kool Aid...

I think it’s naïve to rule that out as a possibility… I see them shooting at the range, I agree that BG’s are the least likely people to legally purchase a firearm but to say it’s an impossibility is to burry your head in the sand.. My point is that there are valid points, CAN an inexperienced (no record YET) gangbanger buy a legal firearm? YES!!!! Is it likely? NO! but, criminals are not born with a records so how can one distinguish without discrimination? You can’t… just like you can’t say that every person that legally purchases a firearm is going to act in a responsible and safe manner. If you want to wear your blinders and hang out on the right the by all means do so! but I choose to accept reality be it good or bad.

chrisdesoup
08-23-2008, 1:48 PM
Why would a budding gangbanger go to an FFL to transfer a shotgun? The people who are most dangerous to society aren't affected by laws such as the requirement to process a firearms transfer through an FFL. Only the law-abiding citizens are affected.

We are required by law to do our PPTs through an FFL. I don't like that law, but it's the one we're stuck with at the moment. The FFL is also required by law to process that transfer, and if they are given the discretion to refuse the transfer because they don't like the way you look, or they don't want to do five minutes of work for $10 profit, or any other reason, then we are faced with a de-facto ban on firearms transfers if enough of them in a given area don't want to be bothered.

How can we be angered when a sheriff uses their discretion to deny all CCW applicants, yet not be angered when FFLs use their discretion to deny transfers? Particularly when that sheriff is given this power of discretion by law, but the FFL is compelled by law to process the transfer? If we were in a shall-issue state and a local sheriff refused to issues CCWs, we'd all be in a righteous fury. How can there be any debate when we are in a "shall-transfer" state, and the people who are required to perform those transfers refuse to do so?

I don't like getting the government involved in things any more than anybody else, but this is one of those cases where it is justified because of the situation we have been placed in by the legislature.


Yes, everyone who buys guns legally are law-abiding people and if FFL's had any discretion the world would end and seventh seal would be broken.....

It would be great if you responed to my entire post rather than an example I used.

tenpercentfirearms
08-23-2008, 2:06 PM
I am going back and forth…. It would be nice for an FFL to have a level of discretion ie., budding gangbangers buying from his homeboys shotty…. like the ones that shoot at target masters sometimes.

That is what a background check is for. If I don't think it is a straw purchase and they don't tell me they intend to commit a crime, then it is none of my business what they guy is doing with his shotgun. If they want to PPT, then they get to PPT. I am not the police and I am not going to deny a sale because of my own personal judgement on someone's possible firearms handling experience.

I have had hispanic guys with tats come into my shop. Guess what, they knew more about AKs than I did and they were extremely knowledgable. Not the "hold it sideways foo!" type at all. They made me glad I didn't judge them one way or another and I would not mind having them as customers again.

My job is to sell guns, not make societal judgements of firearms ownership fitness. The criminal justice system will deal with law breakers.

I think it’s naïve to rule that out as a possibility… I see them shooting at the range, I agree that BG’s are the least likely people to legally purchase a firearm but to say it’s an impossibility is to burry your head in the sand.. My point is that there are valid points, CAN an inexperienced (no record YET) gangbanger buy a legal firearm? YES!!!! Is it likely? NO! but, criminals are not born with a records so how can one distinguish without discrimination? You can’t… just like you can’t say that every person that legally purchases a firearm is going to act in a responsible and safe manner. If you want to wear your blinders and hang out on the right the by all means do so! but I choose to accept reality be it good or bad.

So you want me to be the gun police? You want me to determine who gets to buy guns and who doesn't based on my opinion? Screw that.

Part of living in a free society is that people are innocent until proven guilty. I don't know about the rest of you, but I believe everyone has a right to keep and bear arms. Blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, Asians, nerds, mall ninjas, and women all have a right to come into my shop and buy a gun. If the state doesn't want them to have one, they will deny them. If they approve them, it is up to the individual to abide by the laws and shoot safely. If it becomes my job to police this, what is to stop me from saying no to minorities, gays, and women? "You people have no reason to own a gun." F that. Live free or die.

Plus I am a good capitalist. The only color I see when a customer walks in the door is green! ;)

chrisdesoup
08-23-2008, 2:13 PM
I think I have taken this thread off track..... My only real question was asked and answered. :hurray:

tenpercentfirearms
08-14-2009, 1:22 PM
It only took nearly a year, but I just e-mailed this to Karen Milami at the CA DOJ. I will let you know what response I get.

joe4702
08-14-2009, 5:20 PM
I'm betting almost all FFLs know the laws regarding PPT. Some choose to ignore them. At the last handgun PPT I did, the FFL got extremely defensive when I pointed out he was overcharging in violation of the regs (the DOJ price sheet was posted right on the register for chris sakes). He said the state had no business telling him what to charge and we could take it (@$75) or leave (and yes, he knew the difference between PPT and an out-of-state xfer). I was the seller or I would have walked. The buyer didn't know the law and sheepishly agreed to the extra $40 charge.

tenpercentfirearms
08-14-2009, 6:26 PM
I'm betting almost all FFLs know the laws regarding PPT. Some choose to ignore them. At the last handgun PPT I did, the FFL got extremely defensive when I pointed out he was overcharging in violation of the regs (the DOJ price sheet was posted right on the register for chris sakes). He said the state had no business telling him what to charge and we could take it (@$75) or leave (and yes, he knew the difference between PPT and an out-of-state xfer). I was the seller or I would have walked. The buyer didn't know the law and sheepishly agreed to the extra $40 charge.

What will the FFL do when you call the DOJ right then and there and report them to the field agents? What will the FFL do if the field agent requests to speak to them? What will the FFL do if the field agents has to remind them to follow the PPT directions or face a misdemeanor?

FFLs will keep getting away with this as long as we keep letting them. I follow the law, so you don't have to worry about me. However, are some of you tired of this and ready to make it an issue?

barrykay
08-14-2009, 10:28 PM
I already responded to this in the other thread, so here is a cut and paste.

First the only purpose of a dealer's worksheet is to have DROS information when you are at a guns how or your computer goes down and you can't submit the information while the customer(s) are there with you. You fill out the DROS worksheet only if you have to and never if you don't.

A dealer's worksheet is about the worst thing you could hand a gun dealer if you want to force them to run your PPT. #1: it does not even educate the FFL that they must perform a PPT nor what the maximum fee they may charge is. #2: it does not contain all terms of the transaction. #3: the DROS worksheet is pointless if you run the DROS through electronically. #4: I as a dealer would simply throw it away and tell you as I laugh, "Sorry, try again, this isn't a form that applies and you obviously don't know what you are talking about, no PPT for you today. Now get lost."

Not to mention even if I did accept it or if a dealer wanted to use a DROS worksheet, it is just one more piece of paper to add to my stack of papers. No thanks. I give away free gun locks just to avoid having to have a safe affidavit hanging around.

Seriously, if you want to get laughed out of a gun shop, hand them a DROS worksheet period. Most dealers out there should know exactly what the form is and they are going to not want to touch it because it is one more piece of paperwork that is absolutely unecessary when DROS is submitted electronically. Handing this to a dealer pretty much tells them you definitely don't know what you are talking about and will not convince them they should have to do your PPT.

Again, the idea of this project is to force dealers who are reluctant to run your PPT on your demand. These dealers are charging more than they are supposed to and they are refusing PPTs during certain times of the day. The law is clear that they must perform them on written request and the fee is never to exceed $35. However, they think they know the law and they are going to be stubborn. You are going to have to have clear proof of your case right then and there on the spot and not only that, you must comply with the law by having a written request with all terms of the transaction.

The DROS worksheet is not the answer and not by a long shot. Some people think crayons are going to solve this. We need a Mona Lisa or you will be told to go back to the Romper Room.

You have far to much time on your hands. This whole idea is stupid and not needed. Dealers know what to charge and if you are not happy with it, move on to another dealer.:mad:

obeygiant
08-14-2009, 11:26 PM
I am persuaded about the firearms info - the Part D stuff.

The couple of PPTs I've done, the dealer didn't even want to know the price - I think that needs some more discussion. One could add a "$______________" after or under the CASH option.

There's certainly room for the whole PC section - I envision that as the back of the form, if printed double sided - but all the stuff about returning a gun if the background check fails on the transferee is just clutter - the dealer already knows that. But putting back the indication of (b), for regulations, and all of (c) and (d) seems to make sense. Shoves it all to a whole page, though. My old eyes just don't like 'fine print', but the font could be smaller.

Draft 2

How about something along the lines of this:

CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r2.02 (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6765/caprivatepartytransferf.jpg)

We'd have to get permission to include the logos of course.

obeygiant
08-14-2009, 11:29 PM
You have far to much time on your hands. This whole idea is stupid and not needed. Dealers know what to charge and if you are not happy with it, move on to another dealer.:mad:

Thanks for sharing.

tenpercentfirearms
08-15-2009, 7:14 AM
You have far to much time on your hands. This whole idea is stupid and not needed. Dealers know what to charge and if you are not happy with it, move on to another dealer.:mad:

Thank you for your input. Let me guess, are you a dealer that charges more than $35? :p

Sorry, if two guys take the time to drive somewhere to do a PPT only to be turned away or taken advantage of in what is clearly a misdemeanor, I have a problem with that. As has been stated many times, when the state requires all firearms go through a dealer, us dealers lose our rights to do and charge what we want. If we are going to enjoy regular transfers and just plain gun business, then we also need to follow the law and do what is required of us.

For a stupid PPT, you should not have to drive out of your way or pay more than is required. Period.

How about something along the lines of this:

CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r2.02 (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6765/caprivatepartytransferf.jpg)

We'd have to get permission to include the logos of course.That is a good start, but I really want it to be on BOF letterhead. I want this to be a BOF project so it will have some teeth.

RP1911
08-15-2009, 9:05 AM
How about something along the lines of this:

CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r2.02 (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6765/caprivatepartytransferf.jpg)

We'd have to get permission to include the logos of course.

Nice work.

You may want to post the same without the logos for the interim use of the members.

ETA: May want to consider adding the word Firearm to the title.

ETA2: Need space in "if anyto Transferor" in the Trade Firearm(s) box.

obeygiant
08-15-2009, 9:24 AM
Thank you for your input. Let me guess, are you a dealer that charges more than $35? :p

Sorry, if two guys take the time to drive somewhere to do a PPT only to be turned away or taken advantage of in what is clearly a misdemeanor, I have a problem with that. As has been stated many times, when the state requires all firearms go through a dealer, us dealers lose our rights to do and charge what we want. If we are going to enjoy regular transfers and just plain gun business, then we also need to follow the law and do what is required of us.

For a stupid PPT, you should not have to drive out of your way or pay more than is required. Period.

That is a good start, but I really want it to be on BOF letterhead. I want this to be a BOF project so it will have some teeth.

I agree, in the interim though maybe we could use our own just to get the word out.

I suppose the alternative would be to have the BOF number on your cell phone and give them a call while you are onsite and explain the situation and ask if they would be willing to talk to the FFL.

obeygiant
08-15-2009, 9:40 AM
Nice work.

You may want to post the same without the logos for the interim use of the members.

ETA: May want to consider adding the word Firearm to the title.

ETA2: Need space in "if anyto Transferor" in the Trade Firearm(s) box.

No Logo PDF version can be found here:

CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r201-NoLogo (http://www.4shared.com/file/125233363/64ba0d9/CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r201-No-Logo.html
)

No Logo JPG version can be found here:

CA-PrivatePartyTransferForm-08-14-09-r201-NoLogo
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6765/caprivatepartytransferf.jpg)

Unfortunately the missing space was the result of converting it to pdf. I added some extra spaces in the "no logo" version as well as 2 additional lines for each type of firearm transfer.

RP1911
08-15-2009, 10:19 AM
Thanks!

ETA:

Not trying to nitpick.

The title sounds better (I believe grammatically also) if the word Firearm was moved after Party: California Private Party Firearm Transfer

obeygiant
08-15-2009, 10:26 AM
Thanks!

You're welcome.

tenpercentfirearms
07-11-2011, 11:30 AM
Ok, the DOJ isn't going to work with us on this. So let's get serious about making a form we can just use here on Calguns and start using them at these dealers and calling the DOJ on them.

tenpercentfirearms
07-11-2011, 12:36 PM
I am persuaded about the firearms info - the Part D stuff.

The couple of PPTs I've done, the dealer didn't even want to know the price - I think that needs some more discussion. One could add a "$______________" after or under the CASH option.

There's certainly room for the whole PC section - I envision that as the back of the form, if printed double sided - but all the stuff about returning a gun if the background check fails on the transferee is just clutter - the dealer already knows that. But putting back the indication of (b), for regulations, and all of (c) and (d) seems to make sense. Shoves it all to a whole page, though. My old eyes just don't like 'fine print', but the font could be smaller.

Draft 2

I just modded Librians original form. Here are the changes I made for simplicity's sake and also for your sake.

#1: The date didn't need to be that large

#2: I removed the titles for space and put them in the boxes.

#3: Why include dealer address if you don't know the address? Dealer name, city, and state should work. Heck, state probably doesn't matter either.

#4: I put in gift as a possibility for details and terms

#5: I made space for six different firearms. If you need to PPT more, do another page.

#6: Tired of buying more locks? What happens when they already come with it? Oh you need a receipt? Here it is!

What do yall think?

MudCamper
05-30-2014, 2:33 PM
Here it is!

What do yall think?

Has anyone ever used this form? Wes, is this "written notice" stuff actually required for FFLs to honor the law?