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View Full Version : Pre-ban owned hicap mags


eltee
08-17-2008, 6:50 PM
Guy cleans out his closet and finds a forgotten and presumed lost stash of 10-22 "hotlips" hicap .22 caliber rimfire mags. Receipt shows they were purchased from a Calif. gunstore years before the hicap mag restrictions took effect.

He does not now own a 10-22, but intends to purchase one in 2009 shortly after Christmas with anticipated Xmas gift money.

1. Is he legally able to hang on to his newly found, long owned mags?
2. Can he use them in a newly bought firearm?

My read on the laws, through a non-lawyer's eyes, is that he owned the mags before the ban and he can prove it so he is good 2 go and the mag laws were all about mags, not guns. However, I'd like to be sure my opinion has merit before I tell him yay or nay.

THANK YOU.

5968
08-17-2008, 6:52 PM
Yes, you can keep them and use them when you get your new 10-22.

hawk1
08-17-2008, 7:08 PM
You don't have to prove that you own(ed) them, they have to prove you didn't.

5150Marcelo
08-17-2008, 7:10 PM
You don't have to prove that you own(ed) them, they have to prove you didn't.

Thats the way it should be, but now a days, its guilty till proven innocent:rolleyes:

And to the OP, yes, use'm up!

ZombieKiller
08-17-2008, 7:15 PM
I remember a little while back when one of these posts popped up and all of the sudden, everyone and their mom began finding old hi-caps in the attic, garage, etc....

finfan
08-17-2008, 9:42 PM
I just found some!:p

Sniper3142
08-18-2008, 11:01 AM
YES.

He can use them.

No.

He does not have to prove he owned them prior to 2000.

I've got lots of 20 and 30 round AR magazines (and M1A / AR10, Mini-14, and 10-22). I don't have or need receipts for any of them. Possesion is legal... period.

USN CHIEF
08-18-2008, 11:04 AM
I love opening boxes old boxes in my garage:)

bwiese
08-18-2008, 12:14 PM
1. Is he legally able to hang on to his newly found, long owned mags?
2. Can he use them in a newly bought firearm?


Absolutely "Yes" to both questions.

In 1999, some of us bought hicap mags for guns we didn't even own yet.


Thats the way it should be, but now a days, its guilty till proven innocent:rolleyes:

Not true.

The hicap mag laws are almost unenforceable except for blatant cases (i.e., gun didn't exist on or before 12/31/99, or someone witnessed acquistion on or after 1/1/00 outside CA and was able to establish it crossed the border - i.e., DOJ observation at Reno gunshows).

But then again, most people talk themselves into jail.

Fantasma
08-18-2008, 12:18 PM
What about if he lost the receipt?

bwiese
08-18-2008, 12:26 PM
What about if he lost the receipt?

Hell, I don't have receipts for quite a bit of my hicaps. I own hundreds of 'em. And I don't worry.

Burden of proof is always on the prosecution.

Possession is legal, they'd have to prove you acquired them illegally, which would include one or more:

direct stupid confession by defendant;




direct witness statements (challengeable: does the witness know what a hicap mag looks like, or was that a 10/30, etc.?)




were mags are unique and for a gun not in production 'til after 2000;




you bought assembled mags at (say) a NV or AZ gunshow, were witnessed by DOJ folks (who use Reno gunshow monitoring as cover for a gambling trips on state $$) and were pulled over crossing into CA - and those mags were proved to be the same ones that were sold at the show, and not hicaps you just happen to have with you (since it's legal to travel out then return with legitimately-owned hicaps).

dfletcher
08-18-2008, 1:14 PM
Hell, I don't have receipts for quite a bit of my hicaps. I own hundreds of 'em. And I don't worry.

Burden of proof is always on the prosecution.

Possession is legal, they'd have to prove you acquired them illegally, which would include one or more:

direct stupid confession by defendant;




direct witness statements (challengeable: does the witness know what a hicap mag looks like, or was that a 10/30, etc.?)




were mags are unique and for a gun not in production 'til after 2000;




you bought assembled mags at (say) a NV or AZ gunshow, were witnessed by DOJ folks (who use Reno gunshow monitoring as cover for a gambling trips on state $$) and were pulled over crossing into CA - and those mags were proved to be the same ones that were sold at the show, and not hicaps you just happen to have with you (since it's legal to travel out then return with legitimately-owned hicaps).


Bill,

Having participated in the discussion, I don't think I've seen you venture an opinion regarding the hi cap law, with respect to it not specifically banning possession of hi caps manufactured after 2000. If the law prohibits importing, offering for sale, lending, giving and such but doesn't specifically ban possession does that mean possession of a mag manufactured after 2000 is legal? If the possession is legal can a person be charged with a related crime? Conspiracy to import?

In short, I don't understand (and may be missing something) why the legislature would list all sorts of prohibitions regarding post 2000 hi caps, but not also specify possession of them as being prohibited.

bwiese
08-18-2008, 1:42 PM
....I don't think I've seen you venture an opinion regarding the hi cap law, with respect to it not specifically banning possession of hi caps manufactured after 2000.

That falls into a 'proof' area and 'other reasonable legal pathways' area.

A unique mag for a unique gun, neither of them in production (or ownership in CA) before 2000 would be a pretty prima facie demonstration that it was illegally acquired.

I do find the statements from others about "finding" hicaps laughable.

I think a mag with new post-2000 parts, for a gun that existed before 2000, would be defendable as a 'replacement parts' matter: prosecution would have prove that orig mag-to-be-repaired didn't exist/wasn't in possession in CA before 2000.


If the law prohibits importing, offering for sale, lending, giving and such but doesn't specifically ban possession does that mean possession of a mag manufactured after 2000 is legal?

The basic general function of the law was to allow existing pre-1/1/00 hicap mag owners to retain their hicaps and travel outside CA and to return with them after on or after this date.

Given repair parts acquisition and repair of existing mags is legal, and that mags are not serialized, it's a fairly high burden of proof except for the special cases I described in prior post. Note that this is a defense.


If the possession is legal can a person be charged with a related crime? Conspiracy to import?

I believe the importation or illegal transfer would/could be charged. Not sure they'd burn time on a conspiracy charge for just a mag charge.

Of course understand that junior 27yo female DAs don't know crap about this and charges are filed without thinking of the details.

In short, I don't understand (and may be missing something) why the legislature would list all sorts of prohibitions regarding post 2000 hi caps, but not also specify possession of them as being prohibited.

There is some poor phrasing in there but I would not rely on


[N.B. My above post and the one prior to it in this thread should in no way be regarded as recommendation for any illegal conduct, but merely showing difficulties in proof beyond a reasonable doubt.]

Sniper3142
08-18-2008, 5:55 PM
What about if he lost the receipt?

None are needed.

In other words...

We don't need no stinkin receipts!!!

:)

leitung
08-18-2008, 7:19 PM
I just found some!:p

I wish a couple of Glock 33 round mags would show up in my garage..:cool2:

you bought assembled mags at (say) a NV or AZ gunshow, were witnessed by DOJ folks (who use Reno gunshow monitoring as cover for a gambling trips on state $$)

LOL!!!!

Ding126
08-18-2008, 7:29 PM
Someone clear this up for me.

If I have pre banned mags..let say Hk91 20rnd. I can use them??? How does the max of 10 rnds play into this. I'm a bit confused. :confused:

I was under the impression you could own them but going public requires a 10 rnd mag. ?:confused:yes/ no

sorensen440
08-18-2008, 7:31 PM
Someone clear this up for me.

If I have pre banned mags..let say Hk91 20rnd. I can use them??? How does the max of 10 rnds play into this. I'm a bit confused. :confused:

I was under the impression you could own them but going public requires a 10 rnd mag. ?:confused:yes/ no

You cant use them with fixed mag builds but you can use them on featureless rifles
the issue would be the pistol grip on your hk and or any of the other evil features

packnrat
08-18-2008, 7:33 PM
i am just glad i have been collecting mags for some time now.
as i have lots of mags for guns i did not own then, some i do own now, some i do not own now...and others i might never own...at least while i live in ca :D.

and yes it is great opening boxes that have been in storage for some time, like opening up a time capsule that was sealed up decades. or life times back.
(not just gun stuff).


:TFH:

.

bwiese
08-18-2008, 7:37 PM
If I have pre banned mags..let say Hk91 20rnd. I can use them???


If you acquired/possessed these mags within CA on or before 12/31/99, you have legit hicaps.

You are free to use hicap mags in any firearm that allows a detachable magazine


How does the max of 10 rnds play into this. I'm a bit confused. :confused:]


An alternate definition of assault weapon is triggered if a semiauto centerfire rifle has a fixed mag holding over 10rds. (12276.1PC).


I was under the impression you could own them but going public requires a 10 rnd mag. ?:confused:yes/ noNo. You can indeed own and go public with them. In fact it is perfectly legal to walk down the street juggling your collection of legal hicap mags (i.e, ones you got in CA on or before 12/31/99).

Just don't use a an over-10-rd magazine in fixed-mag (screwdown, Raddlock, Prince50, BulletButton, etc.) semiauto centerfire rifle configuration.

Ding126
08-18-2008, 7:42 PM
If you acquired/possessed these mags within CA on or before 12/31/99, you have legit hicaps.

You are free to use hicap mags in any firearm that allows a detachable magazine



An alternate definition of assault weapon is triggered if a semiauto centerfire rifle has a fixed mag holding over 10rds. (12276.1PC).

No. You can indeed own and go public with them. In fact it is perfectly legal to walk down the street juggling your collection of legal hicap mags (i.e, ones you got in CA on or before 12/31/99).

Just don't use a an over-10-rd magazine in fixed-mag (screwdown, Raddlock, Prince50, BulletButton, etc.) semiauto centerfire rifle configuration.

Seems kinda backwards..You would think having a fixed mag, you could use any capacity and limit the detachable ones to 10...I'm not complaining, but it seems funny.

dfletcher
08-18-2008, 8:09 PM
Seems kinda backwards..You would thing having a fixed mag, you could use any capacity and limit the detachable ones to 10...I'm not complaining, but it seems funny.

Agree - makes no sense to allow detach 20 or 30 rounders on a featureless Mini 14 or M1 Carbine, M1A but ban a fixed 15 rounder on the same gun. I suppose the expectation was that over time hi cap mags in CA would wear out and be replaced by 10 rounders. I guess this is what happens when laws are passed by folks with no technical knowledge and deal with lobbyists (on our side) who know how to insert gun friendly language.

sorensen440
08-18-2008, 8:14 PM
Seems kinda backwards..You would thing having a fixed mag, you could use any capacity and limit the detachable ones to 10...I'm not complaining, but it seems funny.

It is backwards
I guess they had a hard time finding anyone who knew about guns to write this law lol

bwiese
08-18-2008, 8:17 PM
Seems kinda backwards..You would think having a fixed mag, you could use any capacity and limit the detachable ones to 10...I'm not complaining, but it seems funny.

This was put in for the SKS with those big ol fixed 20 or 30 rounders.

56Chevy
08-18-2008, 8:43 PM
None are needed.

In other words...

We don't need no stinkin receipts!!!

:)
I throw away all of my gun related receipts, except those for the guns.

56Chevy
08-18-2008, 8:46 PM
I wish a couple of Glock 33 round mags would show up in my garage..:cool2:



LOL!!!!
There's probably someone in another state wishing they could get rid of theirs so that they can park a car in their garage.

RustyMusket
08-19-2008, 1:11 PM
What about hi-cap fix it kits I know there are some people out of state who sell these for alittle extra fee, but alot of other people wont do it. I tried buy some rebuild kits for my old worn out mags from outta staters but they wouldnt do it with out some kind of official documentation (DoJ) saying rebuild kits were ok and legal. I looked everywhere for it but cant find it. What am i missing?

Josh3239
08-19-2008, 1:23 PM
RustyMusket, I don't have a link but it is a letter from Attorney General Bill Locklyer written Nov. 10th 2005 which he answers a long series of questions all pertaining to magazines. It is floating around somewhere on this board, you could try shooting a PM to BWeise or Hoffmang as I am sure they could provide you a link to it.

MudCamper
08-19-2008, 1:38 PM
I don't have a link but it is a letter from Attorney General Bill Locklyer ...

Here ya go:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

But then again, most people talk themselves into jail.

So true. Good excuse to repost this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

RustyMusket
08-19-2008, 1:53 PM
Wow this is a big help thanks alot mudcamper and josh

leitung
08-19-2008, 6:37 PM
Now tell me, I can buy high cap mags, I just cant bring em back to cali right? Reason I ask is that I shoot in nevada on occasion, I could buy some and give them to my uncle who lives in carson to hang onto for my shooting trips in nevada right? I have been considering a 33 & 15 round Glock mags for fun shooting while over state lines.

I just bet every dealer at the reno gun show is gonna be asking for ID on mag purchaces this weekend to cover their ***** against Cal DOJ investigators.

Ding126
08-19-2008, 7:30 PM
I would think or hope everyone realizes you don't need an ID to buy magazines. No matter where you live. The law is broken when you transport them into Ca.

And if you wanted to legally..I believe you can break them down and transport as parts to repair EXISTING, PRE BANNED MAGS in your possession.

Josh3239
08-20-2008, 12:17 AM
Nothing illegal about buying and/or receiving high cap mags in CA. Never has been illegal either. Hell, your receipt could show you purchased them last week. All of the burden of the high cap mag law falls sqaurely on the shoulders of the seller/giver. Hopefully (presumably) the person you buy and/or receive your high capacity magazines from next week will have his act together (read: he will be a licensed operator of an armored car).

What you are describing doesn't break the hi cap magazine ban, however it does describe conspiracy to commit a crime... which is a crime.

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 12:19 AM
What you are describing doesn't break the hi cap magazine ban, however it does describe conspiracy to commit a crime... which is a crime.

Conspiracy to commit what crime exactly?

MudCamper
08-20-2008, 12:41 AM
CONSPIRACY - 18 U.S.C. 371 makes it a separate Federal crime or offense for anyone to conspire or agree with someone else to do something which, if actually carried out, would amount to another Federal crime or offense. So, under this law, a 'conspiracy' is an agreement or a kind of 'partnership' in criminal purposes in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member.

So, if you help another person commit a crime, you have commited conspiracy. I'm sure there's a CA state penal version of conspiracy also, but I just found a federal one first when I did a search.

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 12:49 AM
CONSPIRACY - 18 U.S.C. 371 makes it a separate Federal crime or offense for anyone to conspire or agree with someone else to do something which, if actually carried out, would amount to another Federal crime or offense. So, under this law, a 'conspiracy' is an agreement or a kind of 'partnership' in criminal purposes in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member.

So, if you help another person commit a crime, you have commited conspiracy. I'm sure there's a CA state penal version of conspiracy also, but I just found a federal one first when I did a search.

I was unaware of that federal law
but the magazine law is state not federal so that doesn't not apply here

MudCamper
08-20-2008, 1:00 AM
I was unaware of that federal law
but the magazine law is state not federal so that doesn't not apply here

Damn. Naysayers to the bitter end.

OK I looked it up. In CA it's PC 182.

However, it looks like both parties have to know that there's a crime being broken in order to convict.

MudCamper
08-20-2008, 9:54 AM
Yes yes, that's all fine and good. But we still haven't answered the question: WHAT CRIME? What crime am I helping this other person commit? No crime no conspiracy.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Buy buying the magazines, you and the seller commit conspiracy to sell and possibly import.

The seller could be charged with 12020 (a) (2) and 182. The buyer could be charged with 182.

Bizcuits
08-20-2008, 12:22 PM
If you owned them before the ban your good to go.

MudCamper
08-20-2008, 1:49 PM
Like I said, no crime is being committed. Do you check the liquor license status of a restaurant before you order a glass of wine? No? Uh oh, looks like you could be guilty of conspiracy too. Oh wait, that's absurd. When a seller needs to satisfy certain criteria for legally selling a product, it is not the responsibility of the purchaser to verify the vendor's legal status. Therefore, even if the vendor is not in compliance with the law, there is no conspiracy. In the specific case of purchasing high capacity magazines in CA, there are no prohibitions/regulations governing the actions of the purchaser, and there are several possibilities for the seller to "stay legal".

blackrazoe, if you were to buy high-cap mags, you would be guilty of conspiracy. This thread proves it, unless you go back and delete all your posts.

It appears to me that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't stand that. I wasn't sure that that's the type of person you are until now. I'm done. Have fun with somebody else now.

bwiese
08-20-2008, 2:21 PM
You don't seem to be listening. I buy high cap mags = NOT ILLEGAL. Seller operates and armored car business, so when he sells the mags = NOT ILLEGAL. You have two parties engaging in a totally lawful transaction. Where's the conspiracy?

For that particular instance, there is none because there is no crime in that path.

bwiese
08-20-2008, 2:30 PM
Exactly. That's the whole point.

Buying high cap mags in CA is a lot like buying a firearm. You can own a firearm, but you can't just purchase one from anyone you like. You need to purchase it from someone who's licensed to sell you a firearm. A similar situation exists for high capacity magazines; Not everyone can sell them, but the right people can.

True. I just wanna stop the asshat discussions of "Oh, I can 'find' a hicap magazine". That crap doesn't pass the smell test esp given all the discussion here.

Sniper3142
08-20-2008, 2:41 PM
MudCamper seems to think it is illegal to buy high capacity magazines in CA, when it is not.

Let me repeat that...

It is perfectly LEGAL to buy or purchase high capacity magazines in the state of California

Please read the California high cap law. It covers transporting, manufacturing, lending, and selling. It mentions nothing about buying or finding them.

MudCamper
08-20-2008, 2:52 PM
MudCamper seems to think it is illegal to buy high capacity magazines in CA, when it is not.

Let me repeat that...

It is perfectly LEGAL to buy or purchase high capacity magazines in the state of California

Please read the California high cap law. It covers transporting, manufacturing, lending, and selling. It mentions nothing about buying or finding them.

No. I do not think that. Go back and read my posts.

If you sell a magazine, you viloate 12020.

If you buy a magazine, knowing that it is illegal to sell them, and the seller knows that it is illegal to sell them (we're not talking about armored car businesses here, despite what some might try and skew the argument with) then both the buyer and the seller are guilty of conspiracy. It doesn't matter that buying is legal. You are still guilty of conspiracy. You conspired with the seller to break the law.

Hopi
08-20-2008, 2:58 PM
No. I do not think that. Go back and read my posts.

If you sell a magazine, you viloate 12020.

If you buy a magazine, knowing that it is illegal to sell them, and the seller knows that it is illegal to sell them (we're not talking about armored car businesses here, despite what some might try and skew the argument with) then both the buyer and the seller are guilty of conspiracy. It doesn't matter that buying is legal. You are still guilty of conspiracy. You conspired with the seller to break the law.

Would it be similar to buying alcohol at a garage sale? You wouldn't assume the seller had a liquor license, would you be guilty of conspiracy in this case?

bwiese
08-20-2008, 3:04 PM
The idea that 'half a transaction' is legal while the other half is illegal/prohibited is just crazy.

If the selling of the mag is illegal the purchasing act (a necessary part of the selling act) is illegal too.

This BS is getting old.

DonnaBrazillee
09-10-2008, 5:54 PM
Here ya go:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf


Thank you for the link. Can someone recommend a good site(s) to purchase rebuild kits?

Thank you

CHS
09-10-2008, 6:05 PM
Thank you for the link. Can someone recommend a good site(s) to purchase rebuild kits?

Thank you

44mag.com

They have a rebuilt kit option, add it to your cart. Then add all the magazines to your cart. Before checkout, change the quantity on the rebuilt kit option to the number of magazines you purchased. They charge 1.50 per magazine as a disassembly fee.

Blacky
09-12-2008, 11:07 PM
Scenario, I owned a Sig Sauer 9mm P226 and a Ruger 10/22 (banana clip) in 1985. I no longer own these guns but I had extra mags for both guns. Recently I purchased a new Ruger 10/22 and I am planning on purchasing a new Sig P226. I should be able to buy rebuild kits for both of these gun and use them without any fear of breaking any laws.

Rich776
09-13-2008, 1:46 AM
What about buying 30rd pmags as rebuild kits? Is that legal?

44mag.com

They have a rebuilt kit option, add it to your cart. Then add all the magazines to your cart. Before checkout, change the quantity on the rebuilt kit option to the number of magazines you purchased. They charge 1.50 per magazine as a disassembly fee.

Blacky
09-13-2008, 9:51 AM
Are there any other legit resources for rebuilding old magazines besides 44mag?

sorensen440
09-13-2008, 9:54 AM
Are there any other legit resources for rebuilding old magazines besides 44mag?

I bought my parts from Cproducts directly

Hopi
09-13-2008, 7:21 PM
Are there any other legit resources for rebuilding old magazines besides 44mag?

Brownell's.

motorhead
09-13-2008, 8:07 PM
interesting discussion. i've always thought the hicap law was ridiculously written also. i guess they had to draw the line at magazine registration. i'll bet it was suggested when the law was drafted though.
BTW-congrats blackrazor, the last time i brought up the idiocy of the buyer/seller portion of the law i was accused of encourageing someone to break the law. oh s**t, that makes me a co-conspirator too!