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View Full Version : ATF changes definition of "Gunsmith" to "Manufacturer" - we are skrewed!


berg
08-17-2008, 12:28 PM
I would imagine this would have some terrible implications for CA. If you send your pistol out of state to a gunsmith, for new sights or grips, the gun would be considered a newly manufactured pistol. If this new variation was not "listed" how would it ever be allowed to be imported again to CA?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/081508manufacturing-of-firearms.pdf

8. A gunsmith regularly buys military-type firearms, Mausers, etc., and sporterizes" them for resale. The gunsmith is in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer.

9. A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols and modifies the slides to accept a new style of sights. The sights are not usually sold with these firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

10. A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs "drop-in" precision trigger parts or other "drop-in parts" for the purpose of resale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms, and selling them. The gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

11. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

12. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public. This would be considered manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.:eek:

C.G.
08-17-2008, 12:36 PM
What a load of crap!:eek:

ke6guj
08-17-2008, 12:40 PM
Not sure if it is bad as you fear.

Those items listed are if a gunsmith BUYS firearms, adds value to them with modifications, and sells the modified firearm.

IF you send a firearm to a gunsmith for modification to YOUR firearm, that is not a listed activity that requires a manufacturing license.



Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the
person: 1) is performing operations that create firearms or alter firearms (in the
case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers,
rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the
changes, and then reselling them); 2) is performing the operations as a regular
course of business or trade; and 3) is performing the operations for the purpose of
sale or distribution of the firearms.

emc002
08-17-2008, 12:43 PM
If you send your pistol out of state to a gunsmith, for new sights or grips, the gun would be considered a newly manufactured pistol. No, you're misreading the interpretation. See bolded section below.

9. A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols and modifies the slides to accept a new style of sights. The sights are not usually sold with these firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

10. A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs "drop-in" precision trigger parts or other "drop-in parts" for the purpose of resale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms, and selling them. The gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

11. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

12. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public. This would be considered manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.:eek:


So all of the sections you listed state that it's not the service that is manufacturing, its the service + resale.
So sending your pistol to get duracoated, new trigger or new sights is NOT MANUFACTURING by these definitions as he's not reselling the firearm.

*SIGH* :willy_nilly:

leelaw
08-17-2008, 12:49 PM
So all of the sections you listed state that it's not the service that is manufacturing, its the service + resale.
So sending your pistol to get duracoated, new trigger or new sights is NOT MANUFACTURING by these definitions as he's not reselling the firearm.

*SIGH* :willy_nilly:

Agreed. The ruling seems to cover "Purchase, modification, and resale" as manufacture.

Gunsmithing at request of a customer is not covered.

aileron
08-17-2008, 3:23 PM
Its still wrong.

Its the equivalent of me going out and buying an Acura (which ever one floats you boat), putting new rims on it, exhaust, new stereo, and maybe leather seats. Then selling it because this is what I like to do for fun and the government insisting that I am now a manufacturer of vehicles. :(

FEDUPWBS
08-17-2008, 3:28 PM
NBD if you have the proper license;) In spite of what you are thinking this particular rules change is all about $$$$$$$ looks like they are after heavier FET (excise tax) collection. So be prepared to pay big $ when buying items that are listed or an added line item for FET=11%.
Think this is bad? This ain't **** like whats going to happen when BHO wins in '08!

nobs11
08-17-2008, 4:02 PM
Its the equivalent of me going out and buying an Acura (which ever one floats you boat), putting new rims on it, exhaust, new stereo, and maybe leather seats. Then selling it because this is what I like to do for fun and the government insisting that I am now a manufacturer of vehicles. :(

Guns are regulated. Cars are not to the same extent so your comparison isn't fair. I could be wrong but if you buy cars in bulk, add value and resell, you would require a business license. Buying in bulk, adding value and reselling is not a hobby -- that is a business.

Whitesmoke
08-17-2008, 4:25 PM
The one that stands out to me is #14:


14. A company produces firearms or firearm receivers and sends the
firearm/receivers out for colorizing (bluing, camouflaging, phosphating, or
plating) and/or heat treating. Do the companies performing the colorization
and/or heat treating need to be licensed as manufacturers, and are the
companies required to place their markings on the firearm?
ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are
manufacturing processes. The companies performing the processes are required
to be licensed as manufacturers. If the companies providing colorization and/or
heat treating have not received variances to adopt the original manufacturer’s
markings, they would be required to place their own markings on any firearm on
which they perform the manufacturing process of colorization and/or heat
treating.



So all these guys that do camo jobs on firearms now must be mfg's...they used to just have to have an FFL to recieve the recievers. But there is no verbage about them having to buy the firearms in this one.....just doing the process seems to be enough.:eek:

Crazed_SS
08-17-2008, 4:27 PM
Its still wrong.

Its the equivalent of me going out and buying an Acura (which ever one floats you boat), putting new rims on it, exhaust, new stereo, and maybe leather seats. Then selling it because this is what I like to do for fun and the government insisting that I am now a manufacturer of vehicles. :(

IIRC, this is what Saleen does/did to Mustangs and they're considered to be manufacturers. They take Mustangs and hop them up. They actually got in a bit of trouble awhile back for selling cars that didnt have CARB-Legal parts.. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/04/saleen-gets-fined-700k-for-selling-uncertified-cars-in-cali/

paladin4415
08-17-2008, 8:39 PM
Guns are regulated. Cars are not to the same extent so your comparison isn't fair. I could be wrong but if you buy cars in bulk, add value and resell, you would require a business license. Buying in bulk, adding value and reselling is not a hobby -- that is a business.

You are correct, but these gunsmiths already have business licenses and FFL's for that matter. Buying a Springfield 1911 Milspec, putting on modern sights, and selling it makes you business, NOT a manufacturer. ATF just made another in a very long line of bad rules. It must be nice to make up your own rules as you go along.
Asshats....just Asshats!

tombinghamthegreat
08-17-2008, 8:46 PM
http://lonelymachines.org/images/posters/atf.jpg

EastBayRidge
08-17-2008, 9:12 PM
T-ham - just use an old Jedi mind trick -

"These are not the sears you're looking for."

m24armorer
08-17-2008, 10:15 PM
Just back from Roseville, just too fn tired to type.

I will get back to this.

blackberg
08-18-2008, 12:00 AM
Its still wrong.

Its the equivalent of me going out and buying an Acura (which ever one floats you boat), putting new rims on it, exhaust, new stereo, and maybe leather seats. Then selling it because this is what I like to do for fun and the government insisting that I am now a manufacturer of vehicles. :(

actually CA DMV says that if you buy a with the Intent to make a profit, you need Dealer's Lic

-bb

SteveH
08-18-2008, 2:15 AM
This ruling appears to be directed at bulk weapon "assemblers" who build guns for retail sale out of parts actually produced by someone else.

There are "gun" companies out there who have an entire business model built around that. BATF has basically decided that those companies must have a manufacturers license.

Say you were to start a company and decided to call it CMMX. You didnt actually forge or machine anything. But you bought lots of parts from DPMS, Wilson, CMT, ect and assembled those components into complete rifles for commercial sale. BATF says you need a manufacturers license.

Say you were to start a company called Scatterxxx Xxxxnologies. You didnt actually forge or machine anything. But you bought basic Reminton shotguns and customized them with aftermarket parts then restamped them with your own company name and model numbers. BATF says you need a manufacturers license.

This isnt an attack on gunsmiths. Its expected when there are only a few companies actually forging and machining parts but several new companies every year selling complete firearms built from those subcontractors parts.

BillCA
08-18-2008, 3:46 AM
The ones that I see as objectionable (and questionable) are both 12 & 14.

12. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public.
This would be considered manufacturing of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

Since item #13 describes merely cleaning military rifles doesn't mandate a MFR's license, the question is whether merely replacing a damaged stock (with an OEM stock) or the bluing requires a MFR's license, or both.

I can see a distributor offering rifles for sale and on the ones with damaged stocks, offering a "special" deal to install a new stock before shipping... e.g. a rifle in excellent shape is $189, but with a damaged stock is only $119. For $70 you get a new stocked gun and a "credit" for $30. Thus, the company sells you the rifle, THEN modifies your rifle at your request, before it ships.

14. A company produces firearms or firearm receivers and sends the firearm/receivers out for colorizing (bluing, camouflaging, phosphating, or plating) and/or heat treating. Do the companies performing the colorization and/or heat treating need to be licensed as manufacturers, and are the companies required to place their markings on the firearm?
ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are manufacturing processes. The companies performing the processes are required to be licensed as manufacturers.

Is bluing, hard chroming and other forms of finish considered a "manufacturing" process? Since camouflaging can be a spray-on application, if I decide to make pink "Hello Kitty" guns for a manufacturer, do I have to have a MFR's license? Does it matter if the process uses latex, enamel, polyurethane or epoxy coatings? Does this apply to production of parts too? Supposing one already applied teflon to AR magazine bodies as a subcontractor - would application of teflon to bolt handles and bolt carriers require the license? Or application to the upper receivers?

In re: Sights: the loophole I see is ATF says modifying the slide to accept a sight... if one were to manufacture an adapter that accomodates an aftermarket sight OR modify the sight itself to fit the slide, it might not trigger the license requirement.

aileron
08-18-2008, 6:21 AM
Guns are regulated. Cars are not to the same extent so your comparison isn't fair. I could be wrong but if you buy cars in bulk, add value and resell, you would require a business license. Buying in bulk, adding value and reselling is not a hobby -- that is a business.

And if I had a license to sell the cars, at what point did I manufacture anything?

Ever work at a bicycle shop, If you built a custom bike, did you manufacture a single thing? No. You put together all the parts to make the bike that someone else manufactured. How about your local Computer store, are they to be considered a manufacturer because they built your PC from off the shelf parts for you because you didn't know how?

This is just another attack to stop the flow of firearms and should be recognized for what it is.

Gunsmiths have been doing stuff like this before any of us were ever born.

gunn
08-18-2008, 8:50 AM
From how I read it, the ATF is primarily concerned when the business transfers ownership to the customer.

* If a business takes a previously purchased gun (from a different source or definitely different transaction) and then upgrades it, I fail to see how this would trigger a mfg definition unlike how the OP feels. After all, there are clearly two seperate transactions and the ownership of the completed (not just parts) firearm does not change.

* If you owned a pile of parts and paid a company to assemble it for you, does that trigger this new definition of "manufacturer"? The ownership of the parts does not change but when is a "firearm" a "firearm"?

* If the business sold the customer a gun and offered to add XXX feature onto it for $y dollars more, does that trigger this new "mfg definition"? After all, ownership did change AND value was added to the gun. The question about whether the value was added before or as part of the same transaction is probably up for debate. I suspect if you try to say that the sale was 1 transaction and the modification/upgrade was a second transaction, the ATF would probably lump them together as you trying to avoid getting a mfg's license.

IMO, the third scenario is much more of a concern for those businesses who specialize in making guns "CA-Legal" prior to shipment...
-g

savs2k
08-18-2008, 10:47 PM
a gunsmith also eats carls jr.

man i hate stupid rules. Why are there even rules like this I still dont get it. Like the stupid hands free cell phone law now... my friend got rear ended from a guy using a bluetooth today because he was trying to figure out how to use it.

what does it take to be a "manufacture" here in cali?

radioactivelego
08-19-2008, 9:48 AM
Its still wrong.

Its the equivalent of me going out and buying an Acura (which ever one floats you boat), putting new rims on it, exhaust, new stereo, and maybe leather seats. Then selling it because this is what I like to do for fun and the government insisting that I am now a manufacturer of vehicles. :(No, you are a flipper. Surprise! Do this more than a few times and the DMV will notice and require you to become a licensed dealer.

510dat
08-19-2008, 11:03 AM
No, you are a flipper. Surprise! Do this more than a few times and the DMV will notice and require you to become a licensed dealer.

That may be, but there's a difference between a dealer and a manufacturer.

Lateralus
08-19-2008, 11:46 AM
Seeing as how most of us build off of stripped lowers (a firearm) and build it up from there, does this mean none of us can sell our weapons without a manufacturers license? Im a bit fuzzy on the real world implications :confused:

M. D. Van Norman
08-19-2008, 12:15 PM
It means that if you’re in the business of manufacturing firearms, then you need a manufacturer’s license.

I don’t necessarily like that idea, but that’s the way it has been for a long time now. This is just a clarification from the BATFE for all those who are pushing the envelope.

motorhead
08-20-2008, 12:31 AM
i agree with whitesmoke, the most evil implication of this is considering refinishing to be manufacture. most of the rest concerns mods for sale. they specifically exempt cleaning and sale of surplus weapons.

savageevo
08-20-2008, 6:40 AM
Is this law in affect now or is it a wish list that they are trying to push? Does this mean the end of home ak builders? Whats the deal?

radioactivelego
08-20-2008, 7:53 AM
That may be, but there's a difference between a dealer and a manufacturer.Manufacturer is "the organized action of making of goods and services for sale" so I'm pretty glad the ATF has it pretty well defined as to what gunsmithing and resale is. If you clearly read rule 5, that's what I do whenever I walk into a gunsmith. Do this for me, give me my gun back after I pay said amount. It's not "walk into gunsmith and buy $2,000 custom 1911."

dragonbait1a
08-20-2008, 9:54 AM
So I I spraypaint my old synthetic stock I'm now an ATF felon because I'm not a manufacturer? Seems pretty unenforceable on the small scale but another dumb crime that could be fished out

"Knock Knock. We have a warrant based of information that you have Assault Weapons and machineguns"
"No Officer, all my firearms are in compliance with the law"
They search for your guns, find a bluing tank in your workshop
"are you a licensed firearms manufacturer?"
"What?"
Refinishing a firearm must be done by a manufacturer, you have all the equipment to refinish a manufacturer, your under arrest for illegally manufacturing firearms etc etc."

Yes its a tinfoil hat story but more likely then getting busted for 922(r) compliance. Really the people this hurts are the custom gun refinishing companies. To go back to the car analogy, Earl Scheib isn't making cars, even if they do bodywork etc.

Maybe they REALLY want to stop the Pink Rifle Phenomenon ;)

RGB

Matt@EntrepriseArms
08-20-2008, 10:13 AM
So I I spraypaint my old synthetic stock I'm now an ATF felon because I'm not a manufacturer? Seems pretty unenforceable on the small scale but another dumb crime that could be fished out

"Knock Knock. We have a warrant based of information that you have Assault Weapons and machineguns"
"No Officer, all my firearms are in compliance with the law"
They search for your guns, find a bluing tank in your workshop
"are you a licensed firearms manufacturer?"
"What?"
Refinishing a firearm must be done by a manufacturer, you have all the equipment to refinish a manufacturer, your under arrest for illegally manufacturing firearms etc etc."

Yes its a tinfoil hat story but more likely then getting busted for 922(r) compliance. Really the people this hurts are the custom gun refinishing companies. To go back to the car analogy, Earl Scheib isn't making cars, even if they do bodywork etc.

Maybe they REALLY want to stop the Pink Rifle Phenomenon ;)

RGB

If you see the posts above, it does not apply to the home builder or tinkerer. It only applies to people who are trying to mod and sell the firearms, in quantity.

Scotty
08-20-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.

This doesn't apply to the homebuilder because you don't have a gunsmith FFL.

It doesn't apply to gunsmiths who are working on other people's guns.

The only thing this applies to is if you are a gunsmith with an FFL and you buy guns for the purpose of reselling them after you do some work to them. It doesn't apply if a customer calls up an orders a gun that the gunsmith has not completed.

dragonbait1a
08-20-2008, 3:36 PM
"ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are
manufacturing processes. The companies performing the processes are required to be licensed as manufacturers. If the companies providing colorization and/or heat treating have not received variances to adopt the original manufacturer’s markings, they would be required to place their own markings on any firearm on which they perform the manufacturing process of colorization and/or heat treating."

OK it says companies, but it still seems like the sort on stuff that BATF would do. Even at the business level the analogy stands, Painting/bluing/colorizing isn't manufacture by any stretch of the imagination and this kind of runaway licensing nonsense is nutty.

RGB