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fullrearview
08-16-2008, 8:15 PM
something that we learned about in class today... pay attention to the weapons choice section. Even the FBI knows gun laws effect the wrong people

http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/force-science/articles/1243754/

BigDogatPlay
08-16-2008, 8:30 PM
From the article...

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team “did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don’t hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant.”

So given this apparent amd complete disregard for human life why is it, exactly, that as a law abiding citizen I can't defend myself in a public place should one of these jokers decide I'm his next victim?

JDoe
08-16-2008, 8:37 PM
Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

This should be required reading by every politician and every voter.

Chev
08-16-2008, 8:58 PM
"none of the attackers interviewed was 'hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws."

Also it mentioned that guns used WERE NOT purchased at gun shows, contrary to the anti's view that gun shows were prime sources for illegal guns (in less regulated states obviously.)

Felons have a general disregard for laws, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE FELONS. Why don't politicians get this and continue to punish law abiding gun owners?

M. Sage
08-16-2008, 9:00 PM
Felons have a general disregard for laws, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE FELONS. Why don't politicians get this and continue to punish law abiding gun owners?

... because we're not the dangerous ones.

5968
08-16-2008, 9:11 PM
Go figure.... 99% of the firearms used by the felons were obtained illegally. Gunlaws only restrict those who are willing to follow the law. :banghead:

pizzatorte
08-16-2008, 9:18 PM
Each of us should send a copy of this to our legislators every single time a gun rights infringement law comes up for a vote.

Mikeb
08-16-2008, 9:32 PM
Each of us should send a copy of this to our legislators every single time a gun rights infringement law comes up for a vote.


Good Idea...+1

this is a very scary report.
take care
Mike

M. Sage
08-16-2008, 9:35 PM
this is a very scary report.
take care
Mike

How so? Did you learn something new?

About the only thing I learned is that criminals actually practice with their guns.

I will say, though, that I don't believe that it's a gap in training that gives police a lower hit ratio. Most of them honestly haven't been properly trained to be able to use deadly force. An average of 2.5 range sessions a year isn't enough to overcome the mental blocks that keep most people from being able to shoot another. You have to shoot frequently, and you have to shoot at person-shaped targets, and you have to get positive things from hitting those targets.

Mikeb
08-16-2008, 9:44 PM
I thought the most telling part of the training comment is that the emphisis is on points on paper. I'm surprised that police don't train in an IDPA or tactical program.

No, all in all it's not surprizing. THe antis say they don't want the "wild west" the truth is it is much worse than the "wild west"
Take care
Mike

FreedomIsNotFree
08-16-2008, 9:46 PM
Agreed. About the only thing I learned from this report that I didn't already know was how little the average LEO actually trains with his/her sidearm.

Of course, that isn't to say this report cant be useful as an addition to the growing arsenal of facts/reason we gun rights folks utilize.

Ford8N
08-17-2008, 5:21 AM
"In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this “may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills,” the study says."

Sad

But I think these are big city cops. Most LEO's that I know are into hunting and shooting. Some are even have BRD.:gunsmilie:

MrPlutonium
08-17-2008, 7:15 AM
Could I get a quick clarification as to why the researchers only picked 40 out of a pool of 800? I'm sure the results would be pretty similar had they picked a larger pool but I'm not so sure that a pool of 40 data points is enough to convince an anti...

Fate
08-17-2008, 7:30 AM
Could I get a quick clarification as to why the researchers only picked 40 out of a pool of 800? I'm sure the results would be pretty similar had they picked a larger pool but I'm not so sure that a pool of 40 data points is enough to convince an anti...

Why not? 200 service people are being used as a sample set for 50,000 in the Obama 6:1 thread! :rolleyes:

chrisdesoup
08-17-2008, 7:44 AM
Good reading and a real eye opener...

SOneThreeCoupe
08-17-2008, 7:47 AM
Could I get a quick clarification as to why the researchers only picked 40 out of a pool of 800? I'm sure the results would be pretty similar had they picked a larger pool but I'm not so sure that a pool of 40 data points is enough to convince an anti...

I wondered the same thing when I researched this report for a pro-2A speech I gave in one of my classes.

The sample group just isn't large enough to be indicative of a criminal trend. Then again, leave it to the FBI to screw up statistics.

movie zombie
08-17-2008, 8:50 AM
This should be required reading by every politician and every voter.


so print it out and send it to your elected officials....and ask for a response.

i found it interesting that female officers are more thorough in their search and that officers are making a mistake in thinking women [i assume those associated with the gangs] won't be armed and ready to kill as well.

movie zombie

fullrearview
08-17-2008, 8:55 AM
How so? Did you learn something new?

About the only thing I learned is that criminals actually practice with their guns.

I will say, though, that I don't believe that it's a gap in training that gives police a lower hit ratio. Most of them honestly haven't been properly trained to be able to use deadly force. An average of 2.5 range sessions a year isn't enough to overcome the mental blocks that keep most people from being able to shoot another. You have to shoot frequently, and you have to shoot at person-shaped targets, and you have to get positive things from hitting those targets.

well, I think the main reason for the difference in accuracy is cops are always playing on the bad guys terms. they know the surroundings, they know when to attack and they always get the jump, often hitting the officer before he even gets to return fire.

chris
08-17-2008, 8:59 AM
of course felons and criminals ignore the law. and legislators are very well aware of that. they know that the criminals in this society and state will not obey the laws the shove down our throats year after year. they propose these insane laws to appear to be doing something. yeah their doing something it's called screwing the lawfull citizen while ignoring the fact the law they are proposing will do NOTHING!!!!

i was not surprised at the fact LE does not train with their firearms. it should be mandatory they practice once a week! they have potential to injure innocent bystanders thus they need to be at the top of their game so to say. it is unacceptable that someone who is privaleged to carry a firearm not practice often. i use the privelaged as that we the sheeple are not allowed to CCW because we are not be trusted as LE or not connected to the various commads of LE.

LE should be on target at all times. remember there is more of a chance they could miss their target and that is unacceptable.

bohoki
08-17-2008, 9:04 AM
well the only way i see gun laws affecting the criminals is the trickle down effect

which is if the good guys don't have a certain gun then the bad guys have a harder time stealing it

of course if smugglers can get bails of weed across the border then why not a norinco in with the load

i guess the banners theory is take away all the guns from the good people and watch the carnage and hope eventually the bad guys will be caught or their guns wear out

bulgron
08-17-2008, 9:30 AM
i guess the banners theory is take away all the guns from the good people and watch the carnage and hope eventually the bad guys will be caught or their guns wear out

No, the theory is that if they take all the guns away from the good people, and carnage ensues, then the budget for the police and other government agencies will balloon as the frightened sheep demand their keepers do something to keep them safe.

Step one has been accomplished: create a class of uber-violent people who want to prey on the weak the helpless.

Now for step two: make everyone not well-connected to government policing activities a member of the "weak and helpless" class.

movie zombie
08-17-2008, 11:08 AM
No, the theory is that if they take all the guns away from the good people, and carnage ensues, then the budget for the police and other government agencies will balloon as the frightened sheep demand their keepers do something to keep them safe.

Step one has been accomplished: create a class of uber-violent people who want to prey on the weak the helpless.

Now for step two: make everyone not well-connected to government policing activities a member of the "weak and helpless" class.

+1.....especially the last sentence......

movie zombie

Fantasma
08-17-2008, 11:26 AM
They practice getting the gun out and using it,” Davis explained. “They shoot for effect.” Or as one of the offenders put it: “[W]e’re not working with no marksmanship….We just putting it in your direction, you know….It don’t matter…as long as it’s gonna hit you…if it’s up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever….Once I squeeze and you fall, then…if I want to execute you, then I could go from there.”

Crazy stuff....

CA_Libertarian
08-17-2008, 1:09 PM
well the only way i see gun laws affecting the criminals is the trickle down effect

which is if the good guys don't have a certain gun then the bad guys have a harder time stealing it

of course if smugglers can get bails of weed across the border then why not a norinco in with the load

Trust me, the trickle down effect doesn't amount to much. Weapons that are already illegal to purchase, such as fully automatic firearms, are fairly easy to acquire.

I had the opportunity to talk to a gentleman who was a 'retired' gang member who had been a big player in one of Sacramento's major gangs. He related a story about how he was once arrested for possession of such a fully automatic AK47. After posting bail he claims he was able to locate a replacement within a couple hours.

The criminal elements do not suffer from lack of weapon selection.

CA_Libertarian
08-17-2008, 1:12 PM
Two things to note, which I have pointed out to local LE: the bad guys don't carry legally possessed guns, and they don't use holsters. So, if you see a guy walking down the street open carrying, he's probably not a bad guy.

Synergy
08-17-2008, 1:26 PM
They practice getting the gun out and using it,” Davis explained. “They shoot for effect.” Or as one of the offenders put it: “[W]e’re not working with no marksmanship….We just putting it in your direction, you know….It don’t matter…as long as it’s gonna hit you…if it’s up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever….Once I squeeze and you fall, then…if I want to execute you, then I could go from there.”

Thats a load of BS, that banger has seen Boyz in The Hood too many times.

I have seen many bangers shot and seriously injured, but no one walked up and shot them point blank execution style. Bangers pull the trigger and they are like a cat on a hot tin roof, running/driving away.

Was on 2 shootings yesterday, one shot 3 times, Leg, Torso and nicked his head, he was conscious and alert, yet no feeling/movement to legs and arms.

2nd: Guy was a passenger in a car, someone rolled up stuck a gun through the passenger window and put 3 in his chest, so close he had powder burns on his skin. His parents will be burying him next week.

I like the article but its skewed. Bangers will talk it up as much as they can. They talk tough, but are not. Then again I know many cops that shoot like crap, which is very sad!

Ford8N
08-17-2008, 6:49 PM
No, the theory is that if they take all the guns away from the good people, and carnage ensues, then the budget for the police and other government agencies will balloon as the frightened sheep demand their keepers do something to keep them safe.

Step one has been accomplished: create a class of uber-violent people who want to prey on the weak the helpless.

Now for step two: make everyone not well-connected to government policing activities a member of the "weak and helpless" class.

I'm afraid you are right. We sheep should just call 911 after the scum have raped or killed our children.

ibanezfoo
08-18-2008, 8:07 AM
So given this apparent amd complete disregard for human life why is it, exactly, that as a law abiding citizen I can't defend myself in a public place should one of these jokers decide I'm his next victim?

Because they need you as a statistic for the next round of gun bans...:TFH:

-Bryan

MudCamper
08-18-2008, 9:09 AM
Two things to note, which I have pointed out to local LE: the bad guys don't carry legally possessed guns, and they don't use holsters. So, if you see a guy walking down the street open carrying, he's probably not a bad guy.

Yep.

"Concealment

The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, “most often a female companion.” None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon."

Also note that the article talks about how they conceal. It doesn't say that they do. Because, of course, they always conceal. A criminal would never open carry. Yet Open Carriers get harrased by LEO.

MrLogan
08-18-2008, 2:51 PM
I don't think this comes as a surprise to any of us. :mad:

fullrearview
08-18-2008, 3:54 PM
I don't think this comes as a surprise to any of us. :mad:

its not a surprise but it is frustrating how stupid we are as a nation to elect officials that just waste our time and money!:banghead:

anthonyca
08-18-2008, 5:47 PM
Trust me, the trickle down effect doesn't amount to much. Weapons that are already illegal to purchase, such as fully automatic firearms, are fairly easy to acquire.

I had the opportunity to talk to a gentleman who was a 'retired' gang member who had been a big player in one of Sacramento's major gangs. He related a story about how he was once arrested for possession of such a fully automatic AK47. After posting bail he claims he was able to locate a replacement within a couple hours.

The criminal elements do not suffer from lack of weapon selection.

Where there is demand supply will follow, it has always been this way just look at drugs, prostitution ect., Any demand will be supplied just affects the price. If all guns were outlawed the demand by criminals would remain. This would just cause more guns to be smuggled in from former Soviet block countries and even Chinese garbage knockoffs. Full auto, handguns, pager guns ect. I believe part of the reason not as many are smuggled in now is that the stolen guns are filling that demand. I read a story about some Italians who were arrested for working with other Europeans for smuggling FULL AUTO weapons. Too many laws will just make the situation worse. We all know that but the politicians, antis, and reg people who have not studied the facts or have no understanding of markets will not accept that either due to political aspirations or just plain ignorance. Our best bet is to take newbs shooting and casually educate people with articles like this FBI piece.

timdps
08-18-2008, 9:36 PM
I'm thinking the reference is specifically to wounded/down LEOs, not other gangers.

tim


Thats a load of BS, that banger has seen Boyz in The Hood too many times.

I have seen many bangers shot and seriously injured, but no one walked up and shot them point blank execution style. Bangers pull the trigger and they are like a cat on a hot tin roof, running/driving away.