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View Full Version : MD cops raid home b/c man buys ammo for gun not in state records


Davidwhitewolf
08-15-2008, 9:29 AM
Found here. (http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2008/08/from-dept-of-make-em-mad.html) Just scroll down past the pic.

Supposedly the NRA Chief Counsel was notified of this incident. If the description at the link is true, I think we can expect to see a writeup in American Rifleman or America's First Freedom sometime soon.

pbchief2
08-15-2008, 9:39 AM
Sounds like Sacramento's not far behind in this kind of scenario.

Bruce
08-15-2008, 9:48 AM
Don't forget that Pelosi is a transplanted Marylander.

rue
08-15-2008, 10:03 AM
Sounds like Sacramento's not far behind in this kind of scenario.

Exactly what I was thinking....
Ol mayor Fargo would love this kind of thing. She's already unleashed the code enforcement nazis on the city to try and collect revenue.
I was just watching the news the other night and the city counsel and Sac PD were celebrating the success of the ammo reg. ordinance in Sacramento. The story featured about 50 guns on a table and they spouted about collecting like 800 rounds or something. After hearing the story about the guy who was harassed by the Homicide divison I'm convinced they're on the way. I went ahead and wrote a nice little email to the news asking why they aren't reporting that little incident.

GenLee
08-15-2008, 10:07 AM
This is an outrage!

Matt C
08-15-2008, 10:27 AM
HOly @#$#@$ @#$@!#$23 12$#$!@#$OJ oilkgja'sdf #@$%#@%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

If that's even remotely true..... I know what I would have had to say about it.

RomanDad
08-15-2008, 10:41 AM
Don't forget that Pelosi is a transplanted Marylander.
Im suffering from transplant rejection.

Two Shots
08-15-2008, 11:06 AM
Sad this happens in America, Tac team should spend the time going after Drug Dealers and other criminals. Oh wait they would need warrents to raid them.

DIG
08-15-2008, 11:07 AM
I think this is the article....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Henry.

I just wanted your organization to know what Our State Police are up too. The incident below happened to me, a legal gun owner in La Plata, Maryland two nights ago (August 4, 2008 at 12:30 PM). Next time, they won't get in without a warrant. You live and you learn. Below, is the e-mail I sent to Mr. Chris Contee NRA, Chief Counsel at his request. I know I'm not an isolated incident so I hope your members keep their doors locked.

Dear Chris,

It was great to speak with you today by phone. Sorry but also glad you are so busy with our legislative matters. What would we do without you and the NRA?

As I told you by phone, my Wife and I were unfairly besieged late last night by the Maryland State Police. I have also relayed this occurrence to "Citizens Group for the right to keep and bear arms". I believe they are in Seattle Washington. Enclosed is my summation for your review. Good luck on your trip and safe travel.

Last night at 12:30 pm a MD State Police "Armed Response Team" showed up at our door. I was dead asleep, my Wife was laying some ceramic tile on our basement floor when our driveway alert went off several times. She looked at the camera monitor and screamed that Police in Assault gear were running up to our front door. That made me sit straight up from a dead sleep.

We thought they were there for my Brother in Law who had just been mailed Bench Warrants to our home, but he doesn't live here and he is already incarcerated, so my Wife opened the door for them. Then I heard one of them say he had some papers for me or needed to speak with me,so I got up to speak with them 6 or 7 officers in full assault vests, etc. and NO ONE in uniform. Four heavily armed police came into the house while at least two others walked around outside of our home.

One, began to talk to me asking me about the types of weapons I own. Remember now, I was just startled from a dead sleep and I kept asking why are you here, why do you want to know about my guns? Every gun I bought in Maryland I bought from a MD Dealer. Well this Trooper said that I had purchased a "large amount" of ammunition recently and wanted to know why. When I questioned why he was asking, then he changed his tune to what type of Handguns I had. I told him I just purchased my first handgun in Maryland last week, but had not even picked it up from the Store . He questioned me about other handguns I might own and I realized that he was "fishing" to match his list of my ammunition purchases with handguns that I owned. Then I told him about my C&R license that I had purchased 2 with that but was not required to register them with ST. Police. Moreover, I told him it was the MD. ST. Police who approved me as a "designated collector" so why are they here in storm trooper fashion at 12:30 pm maybe to kill me because I legally bought some handgun ammo? He told me that most of the ammo I purchased was for weapons that they had no record of me having registered so the "SYSTEM" Flagged me. Flagged me for what? Death, Harassment at midnight by 7 Storm Troopers?

I asked, "... does your system know that it is stupid to buy ammo with your own ID if your are going to do something illegal, Does your system know that I have a C&R and can buy weapons of various calibers without your knowledge, Does your system know that you yourselves registered me as a designated collector, who "collects" so it is not unusual for me to buy any type or manner of ammunition and finally, Does your system know that it is NOT illegal to purchase handgun ammunition in the State of Maryland whether or not you own that caliber handgun?"

The Trooper (plain clothes), had a list of ammo calibers that he referred to and I agreed, there's no secret that I bought the ammo, but so what? And I'm still not sure of the States definition of a "large amount". Look, I'm not outfitting a Militia, hate group, or giving it to someone who can't buy it, or even buy ammo for a stolen weapon I don't want to register. Any weapon I have every owned has either been purchased at a Gun Store or I personally knew the individual I bought it from and its origin. And, last time I looked it is not illegal to buy handgun ammo, even if you don't own the caliber weapon OR you don't own a weapon at all !! So unless the law is changed, Police cannot harass people who do so.

That being said, the young Trooper told me I "should" voluntarily register all my weapons or this would happen again... because the "system" flagged me. And another thing, he kept asking where I kept my weapons, in a safe? I never answered him and he asked me three separate times as to the locations of any weapons I might have. I got the distinct impression he wanted me to voluntarily let him see/inspect the handguns for the calibers I bought ammo for, but I was ready for that. No warrant, no see. I mean, I would hope you could trust the Police, but why should I let six or seven or so strangers know where I keep guns? If indeed I had the calibers he was inquiring about?

The point here though, is that Police came to my home without a warrant, dressed to kill, trying to intimidate me about something that is NOT illegal !! This was not an Interview it was an interrogation under duress.

Funny the last thing he said to me before leaving was "... Mr. Curtis, sorry to have HARASSED you, you have a good night."

DIG
08-15-2008, 11:08 AM
yeah, that would definitely piss me off too.:mad: I hope this gets a little more attention.

.

nobody_special
08-15-2008, 11:09 AM
If that's even remotely true..... I know what I would have had to say about it.

One of the moderators on mdshooters.com reported that he was in contact with the person in question, and verified the story.

See posts by user "Norton" here (http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=8891&page=7).

ETA: at least they didn't shoot any dogs this time...:rolleyes:

ZapThyCat
08-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Wow. I wonder what happens if I go out and buy some 7.62x25, .38 caliber, and .45.

I wonder if I'm in the "system" because I was mistakenly sold some .45 earlier on.

Love your country. Fear your government.

56Chevy
08-15-2008, 11:22 AM
I have over 1000 rounds of .45 and no .45 gun. I guess I'd be on a list too, but I'm just trying to narrow down my wife's birthday shopping list.;)

MikeH1
08-15-2008, 11:49 AM
time to get a GOOD lawyer

bulgron
08-15-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm going up to the Reno gun show next weekend, and I was thinking about swinging through Sacramento to buy some 9mm pistol ammo just to give them one more record in their database. If enough people do that, the database can start to be meaningless. They can start to have a needle in haystack problem, plus it might even screw with their database's performance, depending on how it was implemented.

The kicker is that I don't own a pistol chambered in 9mm. So if they ever came to see my 9mm pistol, good luck with that. :D

lazyworm
08-15-2008, 12:23 PM
Now how did the police know he bought ammo?
Does MD have the ammo purchase registration laws?

leelaw
08-15-2008, 12:26 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.

glockman19
08-15-2008, 12:35 PM
Ammo...:rolleyes:...What ammo?...:shrug:

BroncoBob
08-15-2008, 12:44 PM
WOW..... :eek:

Davidwhitewolf
08-15-2008, 1:42 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.

I based my use of "raid" in the thread title on this description, apparently based on what the man's wife called out to him after she screamed: "Police in Assault gear were running up to our front door."

Yes, they didn't kick the door down. However, I myself would characterize a house call by a squad of "heavily armed" non-uniformed and plainclothes troopers in assault gear as a "raid," regardless of whether or not they actually had to bash the door in.

radioburning
08-15-2008, 2:00 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.

I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't cooperated with the authorities?

Is it just me, or is this a complete trampling of civil liberties? Who's keystone kops idea was this?

nicki
08-15-2008, 2:10 PM
When a armed swat team shows up at your door, and they start interogating you, few people would say no or where is your warrant.

The only rights you have are the ones you know about, and the police know most people are ignorant or afraid to exercise your rights.

This not only applies about guns by the way.

A few years ago in Alaska, the local police were going around asking to search peoples houses for drugs, and what they did was mark down all the houses where people said no so that they could be watched.:43:

After all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you say no.:D

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, don't think so anymore:(

Nicki

ChibiPaw
08-15-2008, 2:21 PM
When a armed swat team shows up at your door, and they start interogating you, few people would say no or where is your warrant.

The only rights you have are the ones you know about, and the police know most people are ignorant or afraid to exercise your rights.

This not only applies about guns by the way.

A few years ago in Alaska, the local police were going around asking to search peoples houses for drugs, and what they did was mark down all the houses where people said no so that they could be watched.:43:

After all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you say no.:D

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, don't think so anymore:(

Nicki

And not so long ago, Oakland started a program doing the same thing. The idea so that cops can find what their kids have been hiding..

katphood
08-15-2008, 3:23 PM
I've been searching for news stories on this, including

http://www.topix.com/city/la-plata-md

but can't find a shred.

Sniper3142
08-15-2008, 3:25 PM
Thanks for posting this story about a bunch of JBTs trying to indimidate a citizen.

We all need reminders like this so we remember how to respond to similar situations.

NO WARRANT... NO ENTRY.

In other words... move along before you get stepped on!

And I'd call it harrassment instead of a raid, does that make you feel better leelaw?

:mad:

pnkssbtz
08-15-2008, 4:15 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.
They entered into the property without permission (backyard) at 12:30am in full tactical gear. While not as "Action Packed" as our typical raid, I fail to see how this was anything but?

Simply because they didn't kick down the door and follow a flashbang it's not a raid?

leelaw
08-15-2008, 5:10 PM
And I'd call it harrassment instead of a raid, does that make you feel better leelaw?

:mad:

It's not a matter of my being happy or not, I was merely pointing out the mischaracterizing of the event from one point of view.

Funny how when the media does this, CGN has a big outroar demanding that proper terminology is used, but when it's the evil JBT fools, well then the double standard comes in.

Regardless, I'm still waiting for all sides of the story, not one side from a guy who is drumming up support online.

SteveH
08-15-2008, 5:41 PM
The guy doesnt even know how to tell time. Makes it hard to believe the rest of the story.

SOneThreeCoupe
08-15-2008, 6:15 PM
Eh, and you forgot an apostrophe.

This is yet another example of the garbage we gun owners have to deal with.

We have no rights except those we sue to keep.

M. Sage
08-15-2008, 6:54 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.

The PM seems to be a typo. He does say "last night" right before that.

And I'm sorry, but if you're decked out like soldiers on patrol, you're dressed to kill...

tankerman
08-15-2008, 7:56 PM
The PM seems to be a typo. He does say "last night" right before that.

And I'm sorry, but if you're decked out like soldiers on patrol, you're dressed to kill...
Exactly, and if they just came by to talk, why did they show up in the middle of the night. Also, why did they tell the guy to register his guns so it wouldn't happen again? Sounds like a threat to me, a threat made by a bunch of stormtrooper NAZIS.

OCArmory
08-15-2008, 8:05 PM
Sorry but my backyard is my property. If you enter it with out a warrant then you are trespassing. If you enter it in plain cloths with firearms out I would consider you a bad guy! There is no reason that officers should be out of uniform will serving a warrant. Cool black tactical cloths makes you no more bullet proof than putting your extra vest on over your uniform. It makes it very hard to tell the difference between them and bad guys there to do you and your family harm.

Kestryll
08-15-2008, 9:49 PM
I've had about enough of the 'LEO=NAZI' stuff.

Nazi's gassed people by the hundreds of thousands, they slaughters families wholesale and torture was an amusement to them.
Comparing that to LEOs is not only ridiculous it is insulting to both the LEO and the people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

I assume my position on this comparison is clear.

Kestryll
08-15-2008, 9:54 PM
Dressed to kill really is an exaggeration we can do without as well.
I doubt any of the people in question set out to kill someone.

Adding such language just act to inflame emotion.

fleegman
08-15-2008, 10:28 PM
Dressed to kill really is an exaggeration we can do without as well.
I doubt any of the people in question set out to kill someone.

Adding such language just act to inflame emotion.

"All I know is, I finally get to kill somebody"
Psycho from the movie STRIPES

I remember watching an episode of "American Detective", the now-defunct spin-off of "Cops", hosted by the uber-annoying Sheriff John Bunnel. He was showing us an LEO team (I don't recall the department or location), as they practiced doing no-knock warrant searches on residences. They yelled "Police!" (or some such), broke down the door, then immediately proceeded to shoot at every single human shaped target that was set-up in the mock house. After the dust cleared, one of the cops walked up to a human target with the middle completely blown away, laughed, and said "This guy's dead!".

That's how these people were trained, to shoot to kill at the outset.

This episode stuck in my mind because it aired not long after Snohomish County (WA) Sheriffs swat executed a 28 year old mother (Robin Pratt) in her apartment with an MP5. I lived in the same aprtments.

Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!

Kestryll
08-15-2008, 10:32 PM
Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!

You might want to reconsider that last comment.

sorensen440
08-15-2008, 10:39 PM
Is the language too inflammatory for you? Tough!

Eeek I'm sensing either a ban in the future or maybe a Mr. Bear

tankerman
08-15-2008, 10:44 PM
I've had about enough of the 'LEO=NAZI' stuff.

Nazi's gassed people by the hundreds of thousands, they slaughters families wholesale and torture was an amusement to them.
Comparing that to LEOs is not only ridiculous it is insulting to both the LEO and the people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

I assume my position on this comparison is clear.
I was not making a generalization, the comparison was to this particular group of LEO, not all LEO. Regardless, you are correct I do not want to be insulting to those that died at the hands of the NAZIS. A better description would have been SS or BrownShirts/Sturmabteilung after all their primary function was to be an "organization that could inflict more subtle terror and obedience".

thefifthspeed
08-15-2008, 11:13 PM
Some guy on a blog writes this and the only validation is another random person vouches for it? I'm going to need so more proof this happend. The whole situation and circumstances around it don't add up.

By the way I heard a couple days ago 2 people found bigfoot. That turned out to be true :rolleyes:

f00lish1
08-15-2008, 11:25 PM
I'm not entirely schooled up on the law or police procedure, but here's my .02 cents on this:

Assuming that this guy was as clean as a whistle, it would seem that the police were wrong in the entire execution of this "visit". Regardless of the way the man wrote the letter (I'll come back to this) his description of the actions of the police are almost sterotypical of those bad small town police departments you see in tv shows. Law abiding citizens should not be paid this type of visit in the middle of the night and I would think that actions like this would be reserved for "known" or "suspected" criminals. Did they bother to see if this guy had/ has a criminal record before dropping by? I won't assume whether or not they did... yet, but if they suspected this man of illegal activity as pointed out by their "system", then how or why would they not secure a search warrant? Here I can only assume that it's because they thought they could intimidate this guy under the color of the law into being cooperative.

Now, as for the man that this happend to, we have no idea of his past and, like I touched on earlier, maybe the police response was based on how short or long his wrap sheet was. Additionally, it's obvious that he wrote his letter in an emotional state (I probably would've done the same), but look at it's effect on some of those who've posted before me. Anybody can tell a story, but add a dash of emotion, some great adjectives, and a few sympathetic listeners and bam! You have an enraged mob.

So what am I trying to get at? There's a lot of missing facts in this story that we all should wait for to come to light before we rally to support this guy or demand badges be turned in.

katphood
08-16-2008, 7:33 AM
Methinks this story is BS. I can't find a shred in the news anywhere, not even on the NRA site.

The only place it shows up is on forums like this one.

tankerman
08-16-2008, 8:50 AM
Methinks this story is BS. I can't find a shred in the news anywhere, not even on the NRA site.

The only place it shows up is on forums like this one.
It seems to be getting around the internet forums, no other media outlets though.

motorhead
08-16-2008, 9:16 AM
i'm sure they had a legitimate reason for "visiting" this guy's house in full tactical gear after midnight to "inquire" about a legal ammo transaction.

nobody_special
08-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Some guy on a blog writes this and the only validation is another random person vouches for it? I'm going to need so more proof this happend. The whole situation and circumstances around it don't add up.

That's some corroboration, at least. Hey, it's the internet... we're all "random people."

By the way I heard a couple days ago 2 people found bigfoot. That turned out to be true

Or not...

FortCourageArmory
08-16-2008, 11:21 AM
By the way I heard a couple days ago 2 people found bigfoot. That turned out to be true :rolleyes:
Might want to check that one out again. Turned out to be a very BAD hoax.

Solidsnake87
08-16-2008, 12:40 PM
Wow. I can't help but think of that line from super troopers. "Ok guys, next time this happens I want you take a deep breath and pull your heads out of each other's asses."

aileron
08-16-2008, 1:04 PM
12:30PM? Midnight? Officers talking to the residents at the door = raid?

I must be reading a different article, because this one, though an inherently dangerous situation for rights, doesn't describe a raid. The colorful "dressed to KILL!" language is a nice attempt to pull at emotions, but adds nothing to the story.

And if they are decked out in swat gear what exactly are they dressed for?

Sniper3142
08-16-2008, 1:31 PM
You might want to reconsider that last comment.

Wow...

I can't be sure but that almost sounded like a threat.

:(

I really hope it wasn't a threat. I also hope it wasn't an attempt at intimidation.

If you have a problem with anything I said or the views I expressed, please feel free to attended the next SoCal meet & shoot at the Angeles range and say it to my face.

;)

Bad Horse
08-16-2008, 1:54 PM
I'm not entirely schooled up on the law or police procedure, but here's my .02 cents on this:

Assuming that this guy was as clean as a whistle, it would seem that the police were wrong in the entire execution of this "visit". Regardless of the way the man wrote the letter (I'll come back to this) his description of the actions of the police are almost sterotypical of those bad small town police departments you see in tv shows. Law abiding citizens should not be paid this type of visit in the middle of the night and I would think that actions like this would be reserved for "known" or "suspected" criminals. Did they bother to see if this guy had/ has a criminal record before dropping by? I won't assume whether or not they did... yet, but if they suspected this man of illegal activity as pointed out by their "system", then how or why would they not secure a search warrant? Here I can only assume that it's because they thought they could intimidate this guy under the color of the law into being cooperative.

Now, as for the man that this happend to, we have no idea of his past and, like I touched on earlier, maybe the police response was based on how short or long his wrap sheet was. Additionally, it's obvious that he wrote his letter in an emotional state (I probably would've done the same), but look at it's effect on some of those who've posted before me. Anybody can tell a story, but add a dash of emotion, some great adjectives, and a few sympathetic listeners and bam! You have an enraged mob.

So what am I trying to get at? There's a lot of missing facts in this story that we all should wait for to come to light before we rally to support this guy or demand badges be turned in.

There is a lot of information that would be nice to have here. Did it really happen? Is this guy's record clean? Is this the way this department acts in general? Was there a "COPS" film crew riding with them?

There are LEO actions, especially militarized home invasions, that are reprehensible and should be stopped. There's a long string of people that have been killed in no-knock, wrong house raids - New York City worker Alberta Spruill, Boston minister Accelyne Williams, and a Mexican immigrant in Denver named Ismael Mena. A 92 year old Atlanta grandmother Kathryn Johnston, a 61 year old granfather named John Adams in Lebanon, Tn. Corey Maye is spending the rest of his life in prison after he killed a policeman who kicked in the wrong door, invading May's house instead of his drug dealing neighbor's. Maye did what many of us would have done - grabbed a gun to defend his child. He was convicted of murder.

The poster's story is incredible, but because of what we've seen LEOs do over the past 10 years it's believable. I'd just want some more details and confirmation before I get worked up about it.

M. Sage
08-16-2008, 1:56 PM
If you have a problem with anything I said or the views I expressed, please feel free to attended the next SoCal meet & shoot at the Angeles range and say it to my face.

;)

Yeah... cause that doesn't sound like an actual physical threat right there...

Telling Kes that if he doesn't like something, "too bad" on the forum that's, well.. his... Umm. That's going to end badly.

Relax, guys.

If this is on the up and up, we'll hear more about it. If it's not, we'll see it again in its present form in about six months.

762cavalier
08-16-2008, 3:08 PM
Wow...

I can't be sure but that almost sounded like a threat.



I really hope it wasn't a threat. I also hope it wasn't an attempt at intimidation.

If you have a problem with anything I said or the views I expressed, please feel free to attended the next SoCal meet & shoot at the Angeles range and say it to my face.



:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

:shock::shock:

:lurk5:

Kestryll
08-16-2008, 6:36 PM
You might want to reconsider that last comment.

Wow...

I can't be sure but that almost sounded like a threat.

:(

I really hope it wasn't a threat. I also hope it wasn't an attempt at intimidation.

If you have a problem with anything I said or the views I expressed, please feel free to attended the next SoCal meet & shoot at the Angeles range and say it to my face.

;)

Think of it more as a friendly nudge.
Perhaps a tap on the shoulder to get someones attention.

And not to put to fine a point on it but telling me that if I don't like the language that you use on my forum, 'tough' is a bit like me telling you that if you don't like me peeing on the sofa in your living room, too bad.
At the risk of sounding like the fascist some claim I am, I make the rules so if I don't like the language used it's not going to be used.

As for saying it to your face, I won't type something I won't say to your face. I expect the same out of everyone here. We may not like what the other has to say but I would hope that all here are mature and civil enough to be able to disagree without coming to blows and still be able to enjoy our day.

Matt C
08-16-2008, 6:59 PM
Intimidation seems like a valid method obtaining compliance with the forum rules.

f00lish1
08-16-2008, 11:38 PM
Setting aside this story that's missing a lot of facts, I think the one real issue here is that the police/ state/ govt are trying to keeping tabs on what ammunition I buy.

My problem is (besides being a noob) is that I can see how this would be both good and bad practice and I'm having trouble choosing a side. Good in that police can discover that "homeboy" is buying ammo for his stolen gun and bad that I'm being watched by big brother (what's new?) even closer now.

So, what's right?

Sniper3142
08-16-2008, 11:46 PM
Think of it more as a friendly nudge.
Perhaps a tap on the shoulder to get someones attention.

And not to put to fine a point on it but telling me that if I don't like the language that you use on my forum, 'tough' is a bit like me telling you that if you don't like me peeing on the sofa in your living room, too bad.
At the risk of sounding like the fascist some claim I am, I make the rules so if I don't like the language used it's not going to be used.

As for saying it to your face, I won't type something I won't say to your face. I expect the same out of everyone here. We may not like what the other has to say but I would hope that all here are mature and civil enough to be able to disagree without coming to blows and still be able to enjoy our day.

Holy Mother of...!!!

Of all the stupid...!!!

I am so sorry Kestryll!!!

I didn't mean to offend the owner of the AWESOME board!

:(

I thought you were speaking as a LEO telling him to watch what he said, not as this boards Top Dog. I apologize for what I said.

Chev
08-17-2008, 12:20 AM
My problem is (besides being a noob) is that I can see how this would be both good and bad practice and I'm having trouble choosing a side. Good in that police can discover that "homeboy" is buying ammo for his stolen gun and bad that I'm being watched by big brother (what's new?) even closer now.

So, what's right?

What's right is not giving up your right to privacy and right to bear arms because of the possibility that someone may be buying ammunition illegally. How far should the government pry into your life to make sure you aren't doing anything illegal? I like my privacy, thank you.

Punish those proven guilty, not those who are innocent.

mattmcg
08-17-2008, 2:01 AM
Wow! How close to "Unintended Consequences" is this???!!!

For anybody who has read this book, you'll know what I'm talking about.

These ammo regulations allow law enforcement to make assumptions, many of which will be uninformed and faulty. In the process, your rights will be violated...... I hope the sheeple that voted for these legislators will finally wake up and begin to appreciate their freedoms.... Maddening.

thefifthspeed
08-17-2008, 3:27 AM
Might want to check that one out again. Turned out to be a very BAD hoax.

LMAO...back to back posts. I guess the sarcasm didn't come across well with the whole smiley face with rolling eyes...

I guess you guys don't take me for much? :cool2:

pieeater
08-17-2008, 6:45 AM
Some guy on a blog writes this and the only validation is another random person vouches for it? I'm going to need so more proof this happend. The whole situation and circumstances around it don't add up.

By the way I heard a couple days ago 2 people found bigfoot. That turned out to be true :rolleyes:


Story does sound a little strange. I like how the guys wife is setting tile at 1230 am.:confused:

762cavalier
08-17-2008, 9:30 AM
Story does sound a little strange. I like how the guys wife is setting tile at 1230 am.:confused:

I found that one strange as well. Screamed "TWEAKER" to me;)

pieeater
08-17-2008, 12:31 PM
I found that one strange as well. Screamed "TWEAKER" to me;)

LoL I thought the same thing.

CA_Libertarian
08-17-2008, 1:18 PM
Some people suffer from insomnia. I, for example, rarely get to bed before 1AM, often later. I just don't sleep much.

Besides, so what if she is a 'tweaker'?

I work with a guy that's addicted to meth. He's an excellent employee, a very nice guy, and he happens to make enough money to pay for his habit. I don't think he deserves to be harassed by the police unless he actually does something that violates another person's rights.

Pvt. Cowboy
08-17-2008, 1:24 PM
I work with a guy that's addicted to meth. He's an excellent employee, a very nice guy, and he happens to make enough money to pay for his habit. I don't think he deserves to be harassed by the police unless he actually does something that violates another person's rights.

Because if there's one thing that meth doesn't do is quickly turn the user into an amoral scuzzball...

emc002
08-17-2008, 1:50 PM
Because if there's one thing that meth doesn't do is quickly turn the user into an amoral scuzzball...

Heading off the responses that will make my head hurt with stupidity...
THIS WAS SARCASM IDIOTS!

Damn we need a sarcastic smiley!!! MODs, can you help us out?

Wulf
08-17-2008, 2:27 PM
I found that one strange as well. Screamed "TWEAKER" to me;)

My first thought was menopausal.

Cato
08-17-2008, 5:43 PM
When all is said and done, we dont have it that bad in Kalifornia; especially with OLLs. It could be worse, we could be from Mass or MD!


Of course there is still lots of room for improvement.

Davidwhitewolf
08-17-2008, 7:10 PM
All the skepticism seems justified with little corroboration out there at present.

That's why I noted the NRA house organs. If this actually happened I suspect we'll see it in print really soon.

One point: the fellow apparently made a LARGE ammo purchase at a retailer. Just how large might be part of "the other side of the story" we're all waiting to hear....

pieeater
08-17-2008, 8:13 PM
Some people suffer from insomnia. I, for example, rarely get to bed before 1AM, often later. I just don't sleep much.

Besides, so what if she is a 'tweaker'?

I work with a guy that's addicted to meth. He's an excellent employee, a very nice guy, and he happens to make enough money to pay for his habit. I don't think he deserves to be harassed by the police unless he actually does something that violates another person's rights.


Are you serial? Thats like saying he's a great school bus driver even though he is drunk all the time. Meth users are nuts.

Guntech
08-17-2008, 8:18 PM
hah Maryland is ahead of us making you show ID for ammo.

Guntech
08-17-2008, 8:19 PM
Are you serial? Thats like saying he's a great school bus driver even though he is drunk all the time. Meth users are nuts.

Yeah meth= wack job. As in blow up 5 houses with little kids inside because they ****ed up cooking it.

DD214
08-17-2008, 8:23 PM
All the skepticism seems justified with little corroboration out there at present.

That's why I noted the NRA house organs. If this actually happened I suspect we'll see it in print really soon.

One point: the fellow apparently made a LARGE ammo purchase at a retailer. Just how large might be part of "the other side of the story" we're all waiting to hear....

Quick intro - I'm the owner of MDShooters.com, which is the "CALGUNS" of Maryland. We share in your suffering, just in different ways. 'The Brotherhood of the Oppressed' seems appropriate.

Anyway, I think someone already linked to the thread on MDShooters regarding this issue, but just in case, here it is: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=8891

I share in your skepticism, but the more I learn the more it seems that this event did take place as stated. Gun owners in MD have too much at stake to look like babbling idiots, and I want to make damn sure that this actually happened before we start yelling about it in public. That said, I'm fairly certain that it did happen based on what I know now. We have numerous LEOs on the site that have contacted me regarding this and similar issues, and they have known about this policy for quite a while. This is just the first time that a victim has gone public. Most people are just happy to not have charges filed, so they keep quiet and move on with their lives. I'm glad this guy decided to make some noise, and we will continue to pursue the issue. The Baltimore Sun was contacted, and supposedly they are going to pursue this story, although I won't hold my breath because they are decidedly hard left and usually hang gun owners out to dry.

In the meantime, we are coordinating an effort to tighten the screws on ammo dealers in MD who take part in this voluntary program. If we can stop the flow of data to the Maryland State Police, then their database will be worthless. We are going to send groups of people to dealers who are known to use the logging system (including the one that sold the ammo to the victim in this incident), put a few hundred dollars worth of ammo on the counter, and when they bust out the log, cancel the sale and explain why, leaving a copy of the victims account with them. A sort of in-your-face boycott. The hard part is going to be convincing Wal-Mart to stop (yeah, right), so I guess we will just boycott them for ammo purchases altogether.

Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with your plight in The Golden State, but I figured I would add my 2 cents to this thread. One of your members had joined MDShooters and sent me a PM asking about what was going on and pointed me to this thread. I wish you guys luck in your own fight, and I hope you never have to deal with midnight raids for legal ammo sales like we are now facing in The "Free" State.

Roccobro
08-17-2008, 9:44 PM
Wow! I only have two issues with this thread and story:

1- Legally purchased ammo leading to a police house call AT ALL is OK how??? Felons already cannot be in possession of ammunition as a part of their parole/probation conditions, and a legal purchaser is just that legal. Who cares how much ammo he bought? I buy ammo by the CRATES.

2- Being a usual suspect in LEO defending, I am almost appalled at the discounting of a story of a very plausible police encounter that was unjustified and potentially dangerous for a normal gun owning citizen.

Yes, we should be jumping up and down, stomping our feet and getting royally pissed off that this kind of story could happen now days- let alone DID happen! Being an internet skeptic is ok, but defending even the notion of 7 guys not readily identifiable by a citizen, coming to YOUR door "0030 hours" smacks of just what we fear of our .gov.

Shoot, they don't even respond to ignored bench warrants like that without exigent circumstances...

[/rant]

Justin

tankerman
08-18-2008, 5:20 AM
Quick intro - I'm the owner of MDShooters.com, which is the "CALGUNS" of Maryland. We share in your suffering, just in different ways. 'The Brotherhood of the Oppressed' seems appropriate.

Both Maryland and California seem to be going further down a dark path of intollerance towards gunowners .

Thank you for posting, i'm sure we will all be following this reported ammo-raid incident very closely.

Davidwhitewolf
08-18-2008, 10:13 AM
Thanks DD214. Your post and the info are much appreciated.

M. Sage
08-18-2008, 10:27 AM
Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with your plight in The Golden State, but I figured I would add my 2 cents to this thread.

Maybe not directly, but it is related. Sacremento passed an ordinance last year to log ammunition sales inside its city limits, and at least one law-abiding gun owner has crossed paths with law enforcement because of it.

Thanks for the update. I'd love to hear more details as they come out.

Theseus
08-18-2008, 11:27 AM
I have, since being on this and other forums decided that the 2nd amendment doesn't need defending, it is the 4th & 5th!

I am concerned about the overall lack of verification of information before performing such actions. The guy has a C&R license! This means his criminal record had to be reasonably clean, right?

The thought by LEO's, agencies, or the overall criminal justice and enforcement thinks that exercising our Constitutional rights is proof of our guilt of SOMETHING needs to be addressed and fixed, even before the 2nd Amendment. Abuse of the 4th amendment is what allows them to invade our homes and take our lives without any problem. They can come in with unsubstantiated warrants signed by gun-hating judges and kill all in the home and get away with it because they were in fear from their lived of the residents.

Don't take this to mean that I am thinking all LEO's are like this. . . It is the ones that are doing it that I am talking about.

Vectrexer
08-18-2008, 11:59 AM
I've had about enough of the 'LEO=NAZI' stuff.

Nazi's gassed people by the hundreds of thousands, they slaughters families wholesale and torture was an amusement to them.
Comparing that to LEOs is not only ridiculous it is insulting to both the LEO and the people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

I assume my position on this comparison is clear.


Don't you know everyone is a Nazi? ;)

Sorry I just couldn't resist as it seems every conversation devolves into using a select list of labels to identify the the supposed evil person/group. The usage of the term Nazi only signals the end of the usefulness of the person using the label.

CA_Libertarian
08-18-2008, 1:19 PM
Are you serial? Thats like saying he's a great school bus driver even though he is drunk all the time. Meth users are nuts.

Two logical flaws here:
1) You're straw man analogy of a drunken bus driver. To my knowledge this guy isn't endangering anybody, so I don't see how your analogy applies.
2)You're making a broad generalization based on the stereotypical meth addict. Not all of them are street people, scum bags, theives, or "nuts." I've met some crazy ones, some violent ones, and some very kind ones that work hard to support their family and addiction.

CA_Libertarian
08-18-2008, 1:24 PM
Yeah meth= wack job. As in blow up 5 houses with little kids inside because they ****ed up cooking it.

Not all meth addicts are "wack jobs." (See my previous post about making broad generalizations.) Also, not all meth addicts manufacture.

And not all manufacturers do it in populated areas. My understanding is that most manufacturing in Central CA is done in rural areas. There's no way to know, but it's possible the people "cooking" it are doing so in a way that doesn't endanger anybody else's life or property other than their own. Again, if they're not hurting anybody else, we should just leave them alone.

(I know this zero agression stuff is still new to some of you, so here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle) so you read up. What you read may change your life; it did for me.)

M. Sage
08-18-2008, 1:49 PM
Don't you know everyone is a Nazi? ;)

Sorry I just couldn't resist as it seems every conversation devolves into using a select list of labels to identify the the supposed evil person/group. The usage of the term Nazi only signals the end of the usefulness of the person using the label.

Welcome to the internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Not all meth addicts are "wack jobs."

Maybe not, but if someone uses meth for long enough, they turn into a whack job.

Pvt. Cowboy
08-18-2008, 10:46 PM
Heading off the responses that will make my head hurt with stupidity...
THIS WAS SARCASM IDIOTS!


I guess it wasn't sarcasm after all. :confused:

Pvt. Cowboy
08-18-2008, 11:13 PM
(I know this zero agression stuff is still new to some of you, so here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle) so you read up. What you read may change your life; it did for me.)

Your non-judgmentalist ethos sucks. :D

robitrocks
08-18-2008, 11:34 PM
Quick intro - I'm the owner of MDShooters.com, which is the "CALGUNS" of Maryland. We share in your suffering, just in different ways. 'The Brotherhood of the Oppressed' seems appropriate.


Thanks for the post DD214. We'll be following this story closely.