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Paladin
08-15-2008, 12:11 AM
I was just looking at the final results of the NRA-ILA's most recent online poll and 96% of the respondents said they were male.

This is a crisis, folks. Like it or not, women too have the vote. We won't make major headway, esp not in this state, w/o getting more women on board w/us here and/or plugged in w/the NRA (or even the Liberty Belles or the Second Amendment Sisters). To a VERY large extent, politics is merely a numbers game -- if you've got the numbers (people, money, votes, whatever) on your side, you win the game.

How do we get women to join our cause? Rationally, they should flock to our side. In general, they being smaller and weaker than men, they have a greater need for an "equalizer." They are a HUGE untapped market. Without them, we're fighting w/one arm behind our back -- no wonder we've lost so much, esp in this state.

Why do we have this problem?

Is CGN any better? If not, why not? Is the atmosphere around here too thick w/testosterone for the ladies?

Does CA need a new online gun forum by women for women?

Thoughts?

Fobjoe
08-15-2008, 12:13 AM
All of us need to get involved in more book clubs and sewing circles first and then we may begin bringing them to our meetings :)

dexter9659
08-15-2008, 12:21 AM
I try to teach at least one different woman to shoot a month. In fact it is the only reason I own a 9mm. Money well spent I think, considering: 1) I bought it with coins I found over the years. 2) We need more women to see the light. 3) Its a P7M8.

sorensen440
08-15-2008, 12:27 AM
I would say women were are less likely to be going to the nra ila website
lately when I go to the range in livermore there have been at least 5 women shooting

sorensen440
08-15-2008, 12:28 AM
In general, they being smaller and weaker than men


Id be careful with that one true or not

berto
08-15-2008, 12:49 AM
Last time i went to the range it was Ladies Night and at one point each of the 9 lanes that were rented were occupied by women. There were groups of women, women with s.o.'s, and a couple lanes with dads teaching their daughters.

Greater involvement by women is a wonderful goal. Drawing much of anything from an online poll is too much of a stretch.

JimmyD
08-15-2008, 1:20 AM
there are no women in the internetz :TFH:

CalNRA
08-15-2008, 2:39 AM
women often see no use for guns until they need it, and a relative period of tranquility and comfort makes it easy for one to be morally-superior and denounce gun ownership. of all the people I know who own guns most family's mothers are anti and the dad pro, with the dad calling the shots(no pun intended). my fiance is an exception, coming from a staunch Republican family and lived in some shady areas and understands the need for guns for single women.

even the gun owning women are unlikely to participate in the NRA after decades of indoctrination by the public schools and media that NRA is the evil behemoth out to kill baby seals. No easy way to reverse that trend when literally hundreds of billions of dollars over the years are put into paint a negative image of gun owners in general, and the NRA in particular.

RomanDad
08-15-2008, 8:13 AM
My wife is TOTALLY in favor of gun rights and she votes.

But she doesn't like to shoot, and she would never join the NRA, because thats just not her thing.

Paladin
08-15-2008, 8:39 AM
My wife is TOTALLY in favor of gun rights and she votes.

But she doesn't like to shoot, and she would never join the NRA, because thats just not her thing.Sounds great, RD, and I think all of us guys around here need to ask ourselves if we're being a positive, pro-RKBA influence on the women in our lives. Then, in the cases like yours, ask those pro women (in a non-judgmental way) why they would not join the NRA (or at least get on their email alert system (e.g., CalNRA's or the NRA-ILA's)). We really need all the help we can get.

Edit: A Moderator found my poll and decided to add it to this thread. Thanks Mod.!

movie zombie
08-15-2008, 8:45 AM
All of us need to get involved in more book clubs and sewing circles first and then we may begin bringing them to our meetings :)

and the OP wonders why women aren't more supportive of the NRA?! keep putting us down....even with humor....and then expect us to support you and your organizations?!

movie zombie

bulgron
08-15-2008, 9:04 AM
I'll be teaching both my daughters to shoot. In fact, I'm currently shopping for a good .22 rifle (probably a Ruger 10/22) to start my oldest daughter on right now. And, yes, I'll be buying them NRA memberships while I'm at it.

If we want to bring women into shooting, most certainly it helps to start by teaching them to shoot while they're still young and before the "zero tolerance" nonsense taught in our schools has a chance to firmly take hold.

CHS
08-15-2008, 9:05 AM
I make it a point to take as many women as possible to the range, teach them firearms safety, and show them how to shoot. I make sure they have fun over everything else.

In fact, I have two "dates" next week where I'll be bringing different girls to the range.

What I run into (generally) though, is that while women seem to always have fun (with very few exceptions) shooting with me, guns just turn out to not really be their thing. They enjoy shooting, but they aren't interested in actually going out and buying guns and getting into the hobby and going shooting on their own.

I've never understood why. But I keep taking them to the range, and I keep getting them POSITIVE exposure to firearms.

Now, on the other hand there's my girlfriend. She's buying guns like they're going out of style because she wants to own as many as I have. hahah.

Nemo
08-15-2008, 1:52 PM
and the OP wonders why women aren't more supportive of the NRA?! keep putting us down....even with humor....and then expect us to support you and your organizations?!

movie zombie

Agreed. Treat women as true equals and you'd be much more likely to have us as political (and personal) allies. And...ever consider politically supporting women's issues (equal pay for equal work, child care in the workplace, abortion rights, more domestic violence resources, etc.)? Some reciprocity on that front would be appropriate, if you want alliance...

That said, I'm an NRA member, as is my girlfriend...and her mom. :D

Annie Oakley
08-15-2008, 2:02 PM
I have not posted recently because I havn't seen anything interesting to respond to. This boys club is just that, and while I do read some of the posts for content, it takes about five minutes before I'm through and I move on to other things.

As for my need to have a man teach me how to shoot, I'm familiar with weapons that some of the boys here dream about getting their hands on. So if you want women to frequent your website more often, act like intelligent gentlemen and we will reciprocate with intelligent responses. Beyond that, I have no more to say.

CHS
08-15-2008, 2:54 PM
CREEPY.

As I was reading this thread right now, I got a text message from my friend Caroline asking me to take her shooting soon...

So now I've got *3* dates for next week to get girls shooting.

motorhead
08-16-2008, 10:11 AM
:43:need to revise your poll. this is ca, you have to include UNDECIDED!
most women i meet have the "eeew guns" attitude. it's still mainly a guy thing.

tunder
08-16-2008, 1:56 PM
This woman is currently in Beijing with another Gold.

http://beaconmedianews.com/?p=1454

Santa Cruz Armory
08-16-2008, 2:50 PM
Sausage fest! :rolleyes:

RossRinSD
08-16-2008, 3:01 PM
I'm not sure how to answer the poll...

They say you are what you eat.





















I guess that makes me a chicken :D

Ford8N
08-16-2008, 6:46 PM
I very rarely see women alone in gun stores, the range or even shooting in the hills. In fact, never ever in the hills alone. It is strange. I'll have to ask some women I know why they aren't into guns. This just might be some kind of physiological/psychological thing.

Fobjoe
08-16-2008, 7:58 PM
DUH. a woman with a gun shooting alone in the hills is VULNERABLE!!! :rolleyes:;)

Meplat
08-17-2008, 7:54 PM
I want to know how Niki voted.

No offense intended Niki, just good humor.


Sounds great, RD, and I think all of us guys around here need to ask ourselves if we're being a positive, pro-RKBA influence on the women in our lives. Then, in the cases like yours, ask those pro women (in a non-judgmental way) why they would not join the NRA (or at least get on their email alert system (e.g., CalNRA's or the NRA-ILA's)). We really need all the help we can get.

Edit: A Moderator found my poll and decided to add it to this thread. Thanks Mod.!

Meplat
08-17-2008, 7:58 PM
It's your organization too, and you know it. You have to overlook the meatheads sometimes.;)


and the OP wonders why women aren't more supportive of the NRA?! keep putting us down....even with humor....and then expect us to support you and your organizations?!

movie zombie

CCWFacts
08-17-2008, 8:01 PM
It's really bad that there are so few women involved in this forum, and in the RKBA movement in general. The NRA and the various gun rights groups have not done a good job at creating an environment that is truly women-friendly. I know they have created programs to introduce women to shooting (women-only classes etc) but the problems are deeper than that.

Meplat
08-17-2008, 8:17 PM
Both my granddaughters have their own Chipmunks. They got them for Christmas when they were seven. But, only after they could tell me the three most important firearm safety rules whenever asked. They are now nine and ten and coming along quite well with reduced lodes in the S&W J frame. I bought the rifles when the second was born, but right now I would recommend the Cricket as it comes in many stock colors including a quite lovely shade of purple, which is the younger ones' favorite color. The older one would LOVE their Red White and Blue laminated. Semi-autos are not the best trainers. Single shots are best for the small ones, but if your daughter is older the 10/22 may be OK. They are Lifers in the NRA.



I'll be teaching both my daughters to shoot. In fact, I'm currently shopping for a good .22 rifle (probably a Ruger 10/22) to start my oldest daughter on right now. And, yes, I'll be buying them NRA memberships while I'm at it.

If we want to bring women into shooting, most certainly it helps to start by teaching them to shoot while they're still young and before the "zero tolerance" nonsense taught in our schools has a chance to firmly take hold.

nobs11
08-17-2008, 8:20 PM
Look at some of the members posting here and look around you at the range. Many gun owners people are civil and polite gentlemen with families and can respect other individuals, but there is no lack of 20 something armchair rambos, loud mouths and impolite *****s. Misogyny, crude jokes, leg humping, excess testosterone and machismo are rampant in this community. I wouldn't want my girlfriend, wife or daughter to hang out with some of the characters around here. It is no real secret why there are so few women.

Annie Oakley
08-17-2008, 8:47 PM
I very rarely see women alone in gun stores, the range or even shooting in the hills. In fact, never ever in the hills alone. It is strange. I'll have to ask some women I know why they aren't into guns. This just might be some kind of physiological/psychological thing.

I really can't pass up responding to this. If you were a woman you would understand why most women don't go to gun stores alone. But since 95% of the people are men I will give you a little insight. I won't deal with a man because all of the times that I did, I was treated like I was stupid and weak. Not to mention the honey and sweetie trash that was thrown at me.

I spent 22 years in the army, I attained the rank of Seargeant First Class. I was an intelligence analyst and I qualified with the M16, M203, M60, 1911A2, and the M9. I know how to set up a claymore mine and I was taught how make IED's. I was a CBR NCO and I'm capable of doing a fallout report in the event of a nuclear explosion and yes I can read a map. I could go on with all of my training and experience, but I'll stop there for the moment and just say that if men would just take a moment and think about how they would feel if they were treated like that, maybe things would be different.

CCWFacts
08-17-2008, 9:03 PM
I won't deal with a man because all of the times that I did, I was treated like I was stupid and weak. Not to mention the honey and sweetie trash that was thrown at me.

I've observed all that. It's awful and it's really hurting us as gun owners. I wish I had some idea of what we could do to make the shooting world a friendlier environment (to women, and to minorities and other groups) but I don't know what to do. It's a big big problem.

Meplat
08-17-2008, 9:35 PM
I hate to break this to the world but there is a difference between men and women. Guns are a guy thing. Most women, left to their own devices, donít care any more about a gun than a pairing knife. Itís a tool.

Some women, motivated by the realization that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety, or the discovery of the sheer fun of shooting, or whatever, take an active roll in the 2a struggle. But most do not. I too have introduced single women to shooting. All have enjoyed it, most understand the desirability of having the skills involved, if only for safety reasons. Most do not become firebrand activists.

Men protect the family. Women nurture the family. No matter how politically incorrect these statements may be, you cannot wipe out 100,000 years of evolution. Most real women, with their head screwed on straight, will defer to their man to protect them and their offspring. Itís not that they wont or canít or donít protect themselves their children and their family, itís that it is not their primary mission. They will support their man in a tight spot. If their man is disabled, dead, or absent, they will fight to the death for their family. And they will use the firearm skills you have taught them.

Buy the same token they defer to you to figure out what legislation is good, bad, or indifferent in regards firearms, itís not their mission, itís not their bailiwick. They will support you but donít expect more than a small fraction to be activists. They are there for us, they will vote the right way if we give them the facts they need. But itís not their thing.

Man up, do what you need to do, and trust the girls to support you.




I make it a point to take as many women as possible to the range, teach them firearms safety, and show them how to shoot. I make sure they have fun over everything else.

In fact, I have two "dates" next week where I'll be bringing different girls to the range.

What I run into (generally) though, is that while women seem to always have fun (with very few exceptions) shooting with me, guns just turn out to not really be their thing. They enjoy shooting, but they aren't interested in actually going out and buying guns and getting into the hobby and going shooting on their own.

I've never understood why. But I keep taking them to the range, and I keep getting them POSITIVE exposure to firearms.

Now, on the other hand there's my girlfriend. She's buying guns like they're going out of style because she wants to own as many as I have. hahah.

lehn20
08-17-2008, 9:36 PM
I think everyone should buy their wife,GF,mistress,hooker,escort,sister, daughter, etc a NRA membership that way memberships would go up fast and they would save money on car rentals, etc by showing their membership.

CCWFacts
08-17-2008, 9:47 PM
I think everyone should buy their wife,GF,mistress,hooker,escort,sister, daughter, etc a NRA membership that way memberships would go up fast and they would save money on car rentals, etc by showing their membership.

I think we should start by creating a women-friendly environment right here, starting by watching the language we use.

nobs11
08-17-2008, 9:59 PM
They are there for us, they will vote the right way if we give them the facts they need. But it’s not their thing.

Man up, do what you need to do, and trust the girls to support you.

Sounds to me like "women vote the same way as their husbands tell them because the man of the house knows best. Educate the little woman so she'll vote the right way." The last time something like this was heard was when the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage) was debated. And we wonder why women aren't into guns :rolleyes: This is 2008, women are independent and can make their own choices. They don't need "big, strong men" to protect them.

Paladin
08-17-2008, 11:28 PM
Annie, don't feel bad. Gun store salesmen act like jerks to guys too. I had one get into an argument telling me that Ruger never made a certain model in a certain barrel length -- when years earlier I had bought that model new in that barrel length! :rolleyes: I often thought about opening a gun store called, "The Friendly Gun Shoppe" and make millions.

Re. women deferring to their guys re. voting: I don't hang out on gun forums like I used too, but I all the time I read about guys complaining about how their gals don't like guns/shooting/etc and vote that way too.

Re. women being more nuturing: I'd guess that, yes, *in general* they are. My guess is that some of them take this too far by taking it into the political arena and thinking that by voting "liberal" they will make the state "nuturing" too (welfare, entitlements, gun control, etc -- the "Nanny State" that Maggie Thatcher spoke against). Instead, what works in a family for raising kids is destructive in a state when applied to adults.

BTW our stats now mirror the NRA-ILA's result. :(

Perhaps we really do need a CA gun forum by women for women.

Ford8N
08-18-2008, 5:36 AM
I really can't pass up responding to this. If you were a woman you would understand why most women don't go to gun stores alone. But since 95% of the people are men I will give you a little insight. I won't deal with a man because all of the times that I did, I was treated like I was stupid and weak. Not to mention the honey and sweetie trash that was thrown at me.

I spent 22 years in the army, I attained the rank of Seargeant First Class. I was an intelligence analyst and I qualified with the M16, M203, M60, 1911A2, and the M9. I know how to set up a claymore mine and I was taught how make IED's. I was a CBR NCO and I'm capable of doing a fallout report in the event of a nuclear explosion and yes I can read a map. I could go on with all of my training and experience, but I'll stop there for the moment and just say that if men would just take a moment and think about how they would feel if they were treated like that, maybe things would be different.

Thank you for a womens insight. As you can see, most of the posters to this thread are men, responding like a man would. If more females would at least type something, it would educate the males how the females see the firearms world. And I'm sorry how you are treated, you probably run into a bit of misogyny. It's quite rampant in all male environments. I work in an all male environment and notice that when a woman enters that environment, the dynamic changes. It's quite amusing to see the cavemen change. A good book to read is "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation" by Deborah Tannen.

Meplat
08-18-2008, 8:49 AM
Excellent suggestion



I think we should start by creating a women-friendly environment right here, starting by watching the language we use.

Meplat
08-18-2008, 9:37 AM
Sounds to me like "women vote the same way as their husbands tell them because the man of the house knows best. Educate the little woman so she'll vote the right way."

I was not being at all condescending. And, yes, the man of the house does know best on some things. And the woman of the house knows best on others, itís a partnership. And itís not the same specialties in every family. My son can cook rings around his wife but can barely find his way back from the mailbox without her, she is the uncontested navigational leader of the family. If you find my comments condescending you are LOOKING for a grievance.

The last time something like this was heard was when the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage) was debated. And we wonder why women aren't into guns :rolleyes:

The 19th amendment has nothing to do with guns. Please try to hold a coherent thought.:TFH:

This is 2008, women are independent and can make their own choices. They don't need "big, strong men" to protect them.

But, unless their wires are crossed they like it that way.

Give a little girl without an ax to grind a Barbie and she will start swapping outfits and accessories. Give a little boy a Barbie and he will bend her at the middle and pretend she is an automatic pistol. Being 2008 dose not erase 100,000 years of evolution.



:chris:

Glock22Fan
08-18-2008, 10:14 AM
My wife is an excellent shot, and nearly as pro-gun as I am. However, she has no interest in discussing them, here or elsewhere, and she does not see guns as the first and/or only reason to vote for politicians.

liketoshoot
08-18-2008, 10:28 AM
Annie, you would feel at home at my local FFL, they know that women are as if not more capable then men.
My wife use to shoot but an ear condition has her staying away from guns, my daughter on the other hand is as interested in guns as I am.

grywlfbg
08-18-2008, 2:04 PM
My wife was on a murder trial jury a few months ago on the SF peninsula) and during the selection process, they asked the prospective jurors who owned guns. Out of the whole room only 2 people raised their hands; my wife and another woman (a court reporter). This place is VERY different from where I grew up (OK) ;)

Glock22Fan
08-18-2008, 2:42 PM
Out of the whole room only 2 people raised their hands,

And perhaps up to half of the rest of them might have been lying. My wife wouldn't tell you unless she was under oath or knew you very well.

PTL
08-18-2008, 9:49 PM
only 5 women here. geeesh

we need more!

Piper
08-18-2008, 9:58 PM
Geez, this is pathetic. Maybe we should start a women's only section of Calguns. I mean after all, they have women only hunts and shooting classes. Why not a section for women in Calguns ?

aileron
08-19-2008, 12:37 PM
I really can't pass up responding to this. If you were a woman you would understand why most women don't go to gun stores alone. But since 95% of the people are men I will give you a little insight. I won't deal with a man because all of the times that I did, I was treated like I was stupid and weak. Not to mention the honey and sweetie trash that was thrown at me.

I spent 22 years in the army, I attained the rank of Seargeant First Class. I was an intelligence analyst and I qualified with the M16, M203, M60, 1911A2, and the M9. I know how to set up a claymore mine and I was taught how make IED's. I was a CBR NCO and I'm capable of doing a fallout report in the event of a nuclear explosion and yes I can read a map. I could go on with all of my training and experience, but I'll stop there for the moment and just say that if men would just take a moment and think about how they would feel if they were treated like that, maybe things would be different.

Don't some of them have enough wits about them to ask what your experience with firearms is??? You would think that would be a starter in this day and age.

Don't know what to say about the sweety stuff, but in regards to your training I am envious. :p

Nefarious
08-19-2008, 12:41 PM
only 5 women here. geeesh

we need more!

There were more than that before ... I think you guys scared them all away :D

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 2:07 PM
Don't some of them have enough wits about them to ask what your experience with firearms is??? You would think that would be a starter in this day and age.

Don't know what to say about the sweety stuff, but in regards to your training I am envious. :p

In a word, no. As some have said here, we are just supposed to listen to our men and follow their lead and those men who I have dealt with in the past made assumptions about me that they apologized for in some cases or as one man said, "well okay, I guess you know what you're doing." :censored:

nicki
08-19-2008, 2:30 PM
Everyone on this board is here because the board appeals to something that interests you.

Boys play with guns, girls play with dolls and that carries over into adulthood.

Unless someone has a interest in guns, they are not going to be looking at gun sites. Hell, considering how many gun owners we have in the state, what percentage of them even visit sites such as this?

The shooting sports are percieved as a male dominated sport. Our sport is male dominated, but it is not male exclusive, and that is something we need to emphasis.

Many women equate male dominated with male exclusive and the two are different.

Women don't want to step into our zone because many have the perception that they would not be welcome.

The perception comes from things like Golf Clubs and other Male only clubs where alot of business is conducted. Of course some women have filed discrimination suits since they feel it puts them at a economic disadvantage.

Years ago I used to bowl, and most bowlers were men, today alot leagues are mixed leagues since they are more social than competitive.

Perhaps what needs to be done is members of calguns need to set up regular monthly shoots where they invite women as guests.

Alot of women complain that they can't find decent guys who aren't creeps.

Now, lets face it, most of you guys are not creeps, in fact you are probably nice, stable, clean cut, non drug or alcohol addicted, hard working with conservative/libertarian values which in theory would make this board a great place for single professional women to find single guys.

Right now most women don't realize that legal gun owners are effectively guys who have be background checked and if dealing with a legal gun owner, they are dealing with a responsible law abiding guy.

So if you guys want more girls on the board, get them to the range first.

You can start with single female friends who complain about how they can't meet non creep guys.

Nicki

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 2:35 PM
Everyone on this board is here because the board appeals to something that interests you.

Boys play with guns, girls play with dolls and that carries over into adulthood.

Unless someone has a interest in guns, they are not going to be looking at gun sites. Hell, considering how many gun owners we have in the state, what percentage of them even visit sites such as this?

The shooting sports are percieved as a male dominated sport. Our sport is male dominated, but it is not male exclusive, and that is something we need to emphasis.

Many women equate male dominated with male exclusive and the two are different.

Women don't want to step into our zone because many have the perception that they would not be welcome.

The perception comes from things like Golf Clubs and other Male only clubs where alot of business is conducted. Of course some women have filed discrimination suits since they feel it puts them at a economic disadvantage.

Years ago I used to bowl, and most bowlers were men, today alot leagues are mixed leagues since they are more social than competitive.

Perhaps what needs to be done is members of calguns need to set up regular monthly shoots where they invite women as guests.

Alot of women complain that they can't find decent guys who aren't creeps.

Now, lets face it, most of you guys are not creeps, in fact you are probably nice, stable, clean cut, non drug or alcohol addicted, hard working with conservative/libertarian values which in theory would make this board a great place for single professional women to find single guys.

Right now most women don't realize that legal gun owners are effectively guys who have be background checked and if dealing with a legal gun owner, they are dealing with a responsible law abiding guy.

So if you guys want more girls on the board, get them to the range first.

You can start with single female friends who complain about how they can't meet non creep guys.

Nicki

Very well said Nicki. Well done.

Guntech
08-19-2008, 2:39 PM
I was just looking at the final results of the NRA-ILA's most recent online poll and 96% of the respondents said they were male.

This is a crisis, folks. Like it or not, women too have the vote. We won't make major headway, esp not in this state, w/o getting more women on board w/us here and/or plugged in w/the NRA (or even the Liberty Belles or the Second Amendment Sisters). To a VERY large extent, politics is merely a numbers game -- if you've got the numbers (people, money, votes, whatever) on your side, you win the game.

How do we get women to join our cause? Rationally, they should flock to our side. In general, they being smaller and weaker than men, they have a greater need for an "equalizer." They are a HUGE untapped market. Without them, we're fighting w/one arm behind our back -- no wonder we've lost so much, esp in this state.

Why do we have this problem?

Is CGN any better? If not, why not? Is the atmosphere around here too thick w/testosterone for the ladies?

Does CA need a new online gun forum by women for women?

Thoughts?

Good luck finding em in this state, in other states I always find that women are more than willing to shoot, even animals. Not saying all women in this state wont, but most wont. Heck I have gone shooting and some guys invite some random lady they know and they are so unsafe it is scary to think of them owning their own gun. I'm talking turning around with gun loaded to ask a question like "is this the safety" while she points the gun at you. And then she dropped the gun after the first shot because "it scared her". There are a lot of male shooters that are just as bad if not worse, but it seems like a lot of women are more anti gun to me.

Guntech
08-19-2008, 2:45 PM
I think everyone should buy their wife,GF,mistress,hooker,escort,sister, daughter, etc a NRA membership that way memberships would go up fast and they would save money on car rentals, etc by showing their membership.

WTF! I have a membership and I didnt know I can save money on stuff! What car rental places give discounts for NRA memberships! Surely none in PRK!

shellyzsweet
08-19-2008, 4:01 PM
I think there are several factors involved in why more women aren't into guns...let alone a gun forum.

For one...people have been brainwashed to be scared of guns! Then when you pull the trigger it goes BANG! REALLY LOUDLY! and if your not doing it right....IT HURTS! -well if it hurts...don't do it right??? So if you have never shot a gun....they are scared and worried about it hurting.....who would wanna do that? -not most women!

When was the last time you saw a girl into cars?? I mean a girl who can ID different years of certain makes...I.E a 69 charger from a 68. -its not "rare" but it doesn't happen all that often. So take those girls who are into cars and select the ones that can pick out a certain engine and transmission setup from a different one....find the girls who know how to physiclly work and fix their car and have modified or improved their cars with their own hands. Its not very common. Call these girls your "car girls"

Now apply the same concept to firearms. Find a girl who can ID a Glock from an XD....then take those girls and see if they have any guns of their own and if they have mods or improvements on their guns, I.E. Night sights, red dots, different stocks....etc. Call these girls your "gun girls"

-women and men are fundamentally different. Men are more naturally prone to working with mechanical things. Some women have been blessed with this natural ability and you can see it in their hobbies. Firearms are much like cars in the fact that everyone has their own opinion and everyone likes to discuss either rudely or politely the pro's and con's of their opinions. IMHO the large majority of women are not interested in mechanical things such as cars and guns, so their lack of interest translates into less females being involved in firearms.

-Another factor is intimidation. I had never been to my local gun range till my BF took me up there. I owned a Shotgun and I knew how to shoot it and that was good enough for me. My dad lived in a different state and I went shooting with him, but never alone. NO WAY would I go out to my local gun range and shoot by myself. Why? -well personal embarrassment for one....two cause I feared of being surrounded by a bunch of guys who would try to hit on me simply cause I was into guns.....sorta like zombies after "fresh meat" Don't get me wrong....I love guns! and have always loved shooting....but I would have never gone by myself! Its too intimidating....what if I mess up?? what if I get in trouble?? what if I look like an idiot and some guy makes fun of me?? -No thanks!!!....and I'm a lot more outgoing than most girls and can "hang with the boys" -I work with guys who want to be firefighters for Christs sake....but still was intimidated. So I always went with someone...still do but now I am more comfortable with the thought of being alone there.

-I still feel the sense of it when I go into my local gun shop to buy ammo and I am willing to bet that I know more about guns than most the guy customers in there...but I fear being looked or talked down upon. -personally I would rather wait 20 minutes to be helped by another women than a guy....its a comfort thing....its just uncomfortable for a girl to walk into a gun shop with lots of guys, and guns (which society has done a superb job at symbolizing manliness and a sense of macho-isum and rarely portrays beautiful and elegant women with) and expect a girl to walk up and start talking to a guy about a kind of gun she wants to buy, or ammo....only to be insulted by "sweetie" or "honey" or "are you sure you can handle this?" kind of remarks?? Forget it! Its easier to not worry about it than deal with that kind of stuff!
-I almost didn't join CalGuns cause I didn't wanna deal with this kind of BS that even I have experienced in the past!!!! (thank god I did join tho!)

This has largely been how the gun community has been percieved for a long time.....just a bunch of macho guys who are totally into guns and are really intimidating and most women except the "gun girls" much like the "car girls" are going to be interested in and "put up with it"....right or wrong it is our stereotype
-but then....a break through happened. Over the last 10-15 years when I used to be one of the few girls at a range....I am now one of many. Usually there are many girls at my local range. I see them in the gun stores too! Granted usually they are with their hubby's or BF's but our numbers are growing! More and more girls are getting into guns as a means to defend themselves and possibly as a hobby. Most girls aren't going to want "two of everything!" but they will want one gun to defend themselves. We just have to convince them that they need to stand up for their 2A rights and join the NRA.

I also think more women need to see other women shooting...I didn't know about the Second Amendment Sisters till this thread....totally gonna check that out! -I had a women come up last time I was shooting and ask me what kind of gun I had and how to shoot better...I did my best to help her, but I am willing to be she wouldn't have asked my BF that! Women are more comfortable with talking to more experienced women about stuff like that. If you want more women to shoot...take a women out shooting (like many of you do) and KEEP THEM COMING OUT AND SHOOTING -doing it once or twice is gonna get them to prolly buy a gun, but the more you take them out the higher their chances of falling in love with the sport and networking and getting them shooting on a regular basis and then get an NRA membership and then voting! But even then I don't know if they will come to the online forums....thats a mystery even to me....

-Its a long road, but I was never into guns as much as I am now until my BF did that with me. Yea I was pro gun, and had a gun....but now I am Pro-gun, and active participant here, own a OLL, and 5 other guns, hunting, and now a candidates 2A views is a make or break issue for me! and I am trying to teach other women how to shoot!

As far as gun stores go: I suggest hiring some women (if you haven't yet) and try your best to be open, friendly and relaxed with them. Be very polite and courteous.....also realize that if she is by herself, she is probably nervous and if she is with another guy, he might get something that might not work for her (like a .45 vs a 9mm) but I am willing to bet having a women behind the counter will get more women to buy more guns.

-sorry for the long post but I am trying to answer the "what can we do better" questions along with the "I would like some understanding" comments.

Ding126
08-19-2008, 4:33 PM
As far as gun stores go: I suggest hiring some women (if you haven't yet) and try your best to be open, friendly and relaxed with them. Be very polite and courteous.....also realize that if she is by herself, she is probably nervous and if she is with another guy, he might get something that might not work for her (like a .45 vs a 9mm) but I am willing to bet having a women behind the counter will get more women to buy more guns.

-sorry for the long post but I am trying to answer the "what can we do better" questions along with the "I would like some understanding" comments.

Shelly,
I think your statement is very accurate on how a woman feels intimidated. I also think more gun owners need to have women working in their stores, It's just good business. My wife doesn't feel so awkward when she wants to discuss firearm stuff with the lady behind the counter. Also women have their own language that they both can communicate much better than if I try to explain things. 2 of the shops I frequent in AZ have women behind the counter and they are as knowledgeable as most men.

movie zombie
08-19-2008, 4:44 PM
Many women equate male dominated with male exclusive and the two are different.

Women don't want to step into our zone because many have the perception that they would not be welcome.


Alot of women complain that they can't find decent guys who aren't creeps.

Now, lets face it, most of you guys are not creeps, in fact you are probably nice, stable, clean cut, non drug or alcohol addicted, hard working with conservative/libertarian values which in theory would make this board a great place for single professional women to find single guys.

Right now most women don't realize that legal gun owners are effectively guys who have be background checked and if dealing with a legal gun owner, they are dealing with a responsible law abiding guy.

So if you guys want more girls on the board, get them to the range first.

You can start with single female friends who complain about how they can't meet non creep guys.

Nicki

or they would be too welcome: my interest is in guns, not hooking up.

i know many male calgunners would love to hook up with a pro-gun woman, but i'd hate to think that's the only reason you want us to participate. as much as i hear <where are the women>, i agree with annie's original statement: this is a boys club. if you want women to participate, calguns.com will have to change and become more inclusive.....and i don't think many or most members would like that.

i repeat: take us seriously if you want us to actively support the 2nd amendment in more ways than just buying and shooting a gun.

movie zombie

shellyzsweet
08-19-2008, 5:03 PM
or they would be too welcome: my interest is in guns, not hooking up.

i know many male calgunners would love to hook up with a pro-gun woman, but i'd hate to think that's the only reason you want us to participate. as much as i hear <where are the women>, i agree with annie's original statement: this is a boys club. if you want women to participate, calguns.com will have to change and become more inclusive.....and i don't think many or most members would like that.

i repeat: take us seriously if you want us to actively support the 2nd amendment in more ways than just buying and shooting a gun.

movie zombie

I hope that the new Womens Section will help this.....I really hope it gets up and going soon....its still a go right??

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 5:18 PM
I hope that the new Womens Section will help this.....I really hope it gets up and going soon....its still a go right??

OMG, is there really going to be women's section ?

dragonbait1a
08-19-2008, 5:21 PM
I can only speak about the women I've known but in general they keep their opinions on most controversial subjects to themselves.

My wife loves guns, she is adamant about our personal need for more and more ammo, accessories etc. But she doesn't care about the differences between the H&K 45 and the XD9. Looking at guns doesn't stir her "gotta have it" response (two exceptions, submachineguns and rocket launchers), and her only concern for firearms are that they protect our family.

She prefers to go to a well-stocked gun store and feel out guns. She doesn't like to window shop, she doesn't care about brand name. She detests the "bullets come out this end" talk of salespeople. (It was my fault, we were at big box retailers and I wanted to know if she liked certain shotguns, now we shop exclusively at gun shops). Shes a big believer in counting ammo by the thousands and big heavy bullets going very fast. Or smaller bullets in rapid fire.

But getting her to discuss guns is like pulling teeth. I like to say that she cares more about the idea for being armed then the weapons themselves. And that makes it hard to track down the sort of stuff she would like. As far as the forums go, they are more technical then she prefers. She will shoulder-surf whatever I'm looking at it it seems cool, and sometimes she'll discuss a thread or two personally but she'd rather spend her computer time elsewhere.

Personally I've always wanted to create a document kind of like a FAQ for new shooters and people with guns in mind. The four rules, gun range etiquette, basic firearms types and nomenclature. Break down calibers into groups with their pros and cons (not getting technical but things like better range, good for small deer etc), have a good plain explanation of what pistols (in general) are good for, what shotguns are for, and what rifles are for.

I haven't got around to typing it, so if anyone feels motivated to try and help ALL sorts of newbies who get confused with what to expect from what caliber or why someone should buy a shotgun over a pistol of vice versa, it'd make a fine gunwiki article.

RGB
PS second hand insight is just that, I can only speak for what I've seen through the lens of my judgment.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 5:58 PM
I have not posted recently because I havn't seen anything interesting to respond to. This boys club is just that, and while I do read some of the posts for content, it takes about five minutes before I'm through and I move on to other things.

As for my need to have a man teach me how to shoot, I'm familiar with weapons that some of the boys here dream about getting their hands on. So if you want women to frequent your website more often, act like intelligent gentlemen and we will reciprocate with intelligent responses. Beyond that, I have no more to say.
Your reply relies on two predispositions that are not supported in fact.

1.) That the content of this board, provided for by an overwhelming predominance of males, constitutes a deficiency in maturity when compared to content provided by females.

2.) That until the content of the board, again provided for by an overwhelming predominance of males, lacks intelligent content when compared to content provided by females.



Predisposition #1 assumes that 1.) The content here, in general, lacks maturity and 2.) That by the evident of lack of female participation in what is deemed to be lacking in maturity, that women are in fact possessed of greater maturity than men and/or only engage in such discourse that can be deemed as "having maturity".

Predisposition #2 assumes that 1.) The content here, in general, lacks intelligence and 2.) That by the evident lack of female participation in what is deemed to be lacking in intelligence, that women are in fact possessed of increased intellect than men and/or only engage in such discourse that can be deemed as "being intelligent".


I find such assumptions rather presumptuous and intellectually dishonest as there is zero evidence to support either assumptions.

Instead of simply stating that there exists personal motivations and/or personal detractions that preclude you (personally) from participation. To present it in such a fashion as to claim superiority in both maturity and intellect of one sex over the other quite disingenuous.


The more substantiated and supported reason for this issue is exactly as Nicki, shellyzsweet and even you yourself (Annie Oakley) have stated in other posts here. While I personally can't think of any male that would not want more female participants in this hobby, there most likely exists those who are incapable of dealing with such female participation due to ego/pig-headedness/traddition, and that these persons can disparage such interests. (Annie Oakley's gun shop story is a prime example).


Why can't we address the real and factual reason for this discrepancy (as Nicki so eloquently detailed) than to turn this into a male vs. female "war of the sexes" issue that it is not?

Meplat
08-19-2008, 6:23 PM
Annie:


I never said you should, I just said most do. I challenge you to refute that. If you got the expertise, You Go Girl. I don't see any need to apologize for anything. I support you, but I won't cater to you
.


In a word, no. As some have said here, we are just supposed to listen to our men and follow their lead and those men who I have dealt with in the past made assumptions about me that they apologized for in some cases or as one man said, "well okay, I guess you know what you're doing." :censored:

Meplat
08-19-2008, 6:37 PM
Are these ancidotes really helpful in this thread. I have taken many women shooting for the first time and have never had this problem. I don't take anyone shooting for the first time without going over the basic safety rules. You must date a less intelligent grade of girls than I do.



Good luck finding em in this state, in other states I always find that women are more than willing to shoot, even animals. Not saying all women in this state wont, but most wont. Heck I have gone shooting and some guys invite some random lady they know and they are so unsafe it is scary to think of them owning their own gun. I'm talking turning around with gun loaded to ask a question like "is this the safety" while she points the gun at you. And then she dropped the gun after the first shot because "it scared her". There are a lot of male shooters that are just as bad if not worse, but it seems like a lot of women are more anti gun to me.

Meplat
08-19-2008, 7:04 PM
My favorite gun shop has one female working behind the counter. She is at least as knowledgable as any man in the store. Furthermore, she shares my affinity for good triggers and Sig pistols. I will wait to talk to her instead of any man in the place. BTW, I'm male. I think the addition of a knowledgeable woman would be a very smart move for any gun shop owner. Women will be much more comfortable dealing with her, and men who are grownups, will judge her by her performance, just like any one else.


Shelly,
I think your statement is very accurate on how a woman feels intimidated. I also think more gun owners need to have women working in their stores, It's just good business. My wife doesn't feel so awkward when she wants to discuss firearm stuff with the lady behind the counter. Also women have their own language that they both can communicate much better than if I try to explain things. 2 of the shops I frequent in AZ have women behind the counter and they are as knowledgeable as most men.

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 7:16 PM
I really don't like to argue with anyone because it serves no purpose other than to create a division.

pknssbtz:
As I was writing my post, I was thinking about the NSFW threads that are frequently posted, or how about the nearly naked women with guns that some of the guys post. And then there are the little macho pissing contests that the guys get into here or the posts where the boys act like children throwing sand at each other in the sand box because everyone in a particular thread is trying to out do the others. I was also thinking of the little hypotheticals that accomplish nothing except to take up bandwidth. Now does that mean that I think you are unitelligent as in lacking intelligence...no. But I neither have the time nor the inclination to engage in a conversation about how sexy some chick looks with a gun and how many ways somone wants to "do" her.

Meplat:
You suggested that women can't make important political decisions without a man giving guidance in how to vote. You also suggested that we were there for your "support" suggesting that you still have some quaint outdated vitorian concept that we are there to cook your dinner, clean your house and have your children. I find that offensive and insulting. As for you catering to me, I don't believe you have anything I want.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 7:40 PM
I really don't like to argue with anyone because it serves no purpose other than to create a division.
First, I must disagree. I've learned a great deal from discussing differing opinions and point's of view with people, provided both parties are open to new ideas. If anything, I've taken a new appreciation on certain issues because of being shown a contrary point of view and explained the merits of it. (Much to the chagrin of those in debate against me).

pknssbtz:
As I was writing my post, I was thinking about the NSFW threads that are frequently posted, or how about the nearly naked women with guns that some of the guys post. And then there are the little macho pissing contests that the guys get into here or the posts where the boys act like children throwing sand at each other in the sand box because everyone in a particular thread is trying to out do the others. I was also thinking of the little hypotheticals that accomplish nothing except to take up bandwidth. Now does that mean that I think you are unitelligent as in lacking intelligence...no. But I neither have the time nor the inclination to engage in a conversation about how sexy some chick looks with a gun and how many ways somone wants to "do" her.How many "NSFW" threads get posted in the 2nd Amendment Section? The Gunsmithing Section? The California handguns section? Etc? What is wrong with the hypotheticals that accomplish nothing? Do women not also get into 1-up style arguments on the web?


Are you telling me that women don't engage in such antics / discourse on message boards, and that they are above such puerile venues? Because again, that is what you are saying. You are pointing at an infinitesimal fraction of offending content and arguing from a position as if that represented the majority and associating the cause for this with the fact that the predominantly overwhelming member base is male, then that is blatantly a straw man argument and cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The only section of the board that even comes close to what you speak of is the off topic section.


I can find many instances of females participating in exactly the same behavior. But that is irrelevant to the issue; as Nicki has already most excellently explained the reasons why. I must reiterate that this is not a war of the sexes type issue, so why make it such?


While your opinion and participation here is greatly valued (and appreciated), It appears that your have issue as towards what your consider to be male maturity and intellect (or lack thereof) of which you claim to base your participation upon.

I fail to see how someone posting a thread of a subject / topic that you do not approve in the off topic section of the board some how detracts from the entirety of the rest of the site.

But then that is entirely your prerogative; regardless of whether or not it is represented in fact or merely falsely assumed.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 7:46 PM
Meplat:
You suggested that women can't make important political decisions without a man giving guidance in how to vote. You also suggested that we were there for your "support" suggesting that you still have some quaint outdated vitorian concept that we are there to cook your dinner, clean your house and have your children. I find that offensive and insulting. As for you catering to me, I don't believe you have anything I want.
Seriously, where are you getting this from? I just re-read meplat's post and I can't find anything saying anything like this.

Are you basing these claims on statements made outside of this thread, or are you exaggerating what he said to make your point?

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 8:13 PM
Meplat wrote:

"They are there for us, they will vote the right way if we give them the facts they need. But it’s not their thing.

Man up, do what you need to do, and trust the girls to support you."

I wonder how it would be perceived if I said this regarding men ?

As for threads in second amendment, politics and law, it would take me awhile to go through all of the threads that were locked or moved because they were NSFW, inflamatory, inappropriate, bashing of one group or another, considered trolling, or any number of other reasons that have been mentioned by the moderators.

The question of this thread is "where are all of the women ?" These are my reasons why I limit my time here. I'm sorry that you don't see that.

I almost forgot your question about women trying to one up one another on the web. My answer to you is, not on the websites that I frequent. We are too busy comparing notes about the ratio of creepy guys to good guys. Unfortunately, there are more creepy guys than good ones.

movie zombie
08-19-2008, 8:18 PM
good god its happening again: and this time in a thread asking where the women are! this is a prime example of why most women won't post.

guys, we're entitled to our opinions. we don't have to back them up with exact quotes to please you. we were asked a question and we're responding. if you don't want us to participate just say so. we're telling you OUR experience of calguns which is very different than your experience, obviously. yes, you are entitled to your opinion but since everyone wonders where more of our gender is and why we're not participating on calguns and supporting 2nd amendment activities , perhaps its time to listen to some of us that do attempt to participate.

i can say that i find many of the postings in women with guns are nothing more than soft porn and many women looking to find a friendly gun website aren't going to stick around because of that thread. i'd like to see some guy greased up, thonged, and a pistol stuck in the top of that thong but it appears that calgun soft porn is only allowed if its a woman doing the revealing.

if the original poster had only wanted to hear from men, i wish that had been stated. if the original poster was really interested in what the few of us women that participate here have to say, then its time to say that. its not our problem if you guys don't want to hear what we say.

and i guess i'm just not <wired right> ....to use a phrase written by a poster.....because my dad taught me to protect myself, not rely on a man to make my decisions, and to take care of myself. thanks dad!

i question if calguns and its membership really does want women participating.

movie zombie

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 8:49 PM
I give up, it seems everything is a "war of the sexes" issue. Everyone is a victim!

Hooray! Lets all be victims and claim we are being oppressed because we don't like what other people post in the off topic section!

nobs11
08-19-2008, 9:03 PM
But, unless their wires are crossed they like it that way.


I guess too bad for me that I like dating the ones with "crossed wires." You attitude smacks of sexism. Again, this is 2008, not the 20s. Women expect and should expect to be equal except in physical strength.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 9:10 PM
I guess too bad for me that I like dating the ones with "crossed wires." You attitude smacks of sexism. Again, this is 2008, not the 20s. Women expect and should expect to be equal except in physical strength.Wait... so women should be treated equally, except on message boards we are all to tip-toe around their sensibilities; lest we offend them?

Double Standard?

nobs11
08-19-2008, 9:14 PM
Wait... so women should be treated equally, except on message boards we are all to tip-toe around their sensibilities; lest we offend them?

Double Standard?

I don't think anyone is asking to tiptoe around and I don't think you will offend women. They will just think that we are sexist douches and ignore us. But the OP specifically asked women what the problem is, which is why they are voicing their opinion and if you guys can't figure it out from their comments, I don't know what to say. I don't think anyone is asking for special treatment.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 9:30 PM
I don't think anyone is asking to tiptoe around and I don't think you will offend women. They will just think that we are sexist douches and ignore us. But the OP specifically asked women what the problem is, which is why they are voicing their opinion and if you guys can't figure it out from their comments, I don't know what to say. I don't think anyone is asking for special treatment.You are right, no one is asking for special treatment. However, claiming to with hold participation until set criteria are met is de-facto asking for special treatment.

Either everyone is treated equally, or certain classes get preferential treatment and those not of the privileged class must abide by the rules set forth against them, lest the privileged class take offense and remove their participation.

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 9:45 PM
You are right, no one is asking for special treatment. However, claiming to with hold participation until set criteria are met is de-facto asking for special treatment.

Either everyone is treated equally, or certain classes get preferential treatment and those not of the privileged class must abide by the rules set forth against them, lest the privileged class take offense and remove their participation.

I'm going to ask you some honest questions, and I expect honest answers. Do you go to websites like Second Amendment Sisters or Liberty Belles ? Why or why not ? If you do, what is it about those websites that interest you ? Do you read Women and Guns ? Why or why not ? This is not to embarass you, I want to hear a mans perspective.

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 10:15 PM
I'm going to ask you some honest questions, and I expect honest answers. Do you go to websites like Second Amendment Sisters or Liberty Belles ? Why or why not ? If you do, what is it about those websites that interest you ? Do you read Women and Guns ? Why or why not ? This is not to embarass you, I want to hear a mans perspective.
I don't go to those websites because I wasn't aware they existed.

And I honestly don't know if I would go to those websites, and not because the predominant membership base was female, only because I find calguns.net sufficient as far as receiving all the 2A I need and four message boards is enough for me. IF a cross-post were to come to my attention that seemed interesting, I would maybe head over and read the posts, and maybe even participate.

Also, I do the predominant amount of my off-topic posting on a specific website that isn't tied to any specific activity. Calguns is probably the most tame off-topic board I have seen yet. Do I even need to mention ar15.com?


P.S. I can't tell if you are being hostile by the ultimatums in which you demand answers. So I am going to ask if you are?

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 10:35 PM
I don't go to those websites because I wasn't aware they existed.

And I honestly don't know if I would go to those websites, and not because the predominant membership base was female, only because I find calguns.net sufficient as far as receiving all the 2A I need and four message boards is enough for me. IF a cross-post were to come to my attention that seemed interesting, I would maybe head over and read the posts, and maybe even participate.

Also, I do the predominant amount of my off-topic posting on a specific website that isn't tied to any specific activity. Calguns is probably the most tame off-topic board I have seen yet. Do I even need to mention ar15.com?


P.S. I can't tell if you are being hostile by the ultimatums in which you demand answers. So I am going to ask if you are?

I'm sorry, how are my questions and my expectations of honest answers ultimatums ? I will grant that you were probably unaware of the aforementioned websites and magazines, but you are aware of them now. I'm not going to challenge you to do anything that you do not want to do but unless you've been to SAS or liberty belles, how do you know that Calguns is sufficient along with the other 2A places. Perhaps if you visit, you may just learn something new.

sorensen440
08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
Shelly,
I think your statement is very accurate on how a woman feels intimidated. I also think more gun owners need to have women working in their stores, It's just good business. My wife doesn't feel so awkward when she wants to discuss firearm stuff with the lady behind the counter. Also women have their own language that they both can communicate much better than if I try to explain things. 2 of the shops I frequent in AZ have women behind the counter and they are as knowledgeable as most men.

Men are also more likely to buy from a woman in my experience

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm sorry, how are my questions and my expectations of honest answers ultimatums ? I will grant that you were probably unaware of the aforementioned websites and magazines, but you are aware of them now. I'm not going to challenge you to do anything that you do not want to do but unless you've been to SAS or liberty belles, how do you know that Calguns is sufficient along with the other 2A places. Perhaps if you visit, you may just learn something new.
Because Calguns has things like HoffmanG and BWeise, and scores of other individuals. Besides, message boards aren't the only source of information for me.

As to why I feel you were being hostile?

I'm going to ask you some honest questions, and I expect honest answers.
Because you didn't ask, you demanded.

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 10:52 PM
Because Calguns has things like HoffmanG and BWeise, and scores of other individuals. Besides, message boards aren't the only source of information for me.

As to why I feel you were being hostile?


Because you didn't ask, you demanded.

OMG, I'm so sorry. Did my expectation of an honest answer victimize you ?

I'll admit that HoffmanG and Bwiese are insightful, but is that it ?

sorensen440
08-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Because you didn't ask, you demanded.

Seemed like an expectation rather then a demand to me

Charliegone
08-19-2008, 11:14 PM
This is getting interesting. Well, I just want to say that most men wouldn't visit SAS or Liberty Belles, mostly because it probably doesn't appeal to them. In other words, since it involves a focus on women, mainly, men probably wouldn't feel welcomed (even though they probably will be welcomed.) I'm guessing most women probably feel the same way about Calguns. I'm not saying women stay out, it would be great if we had more point of views, but I guess some of our actions or representation doesn't appeal to many women.

Paladin
08-19-2008, 11:22 PM
if the original poster had only wanted to hear from men, i wish that had been stated. if the original poster was really interested in what the few of us women that participate here have to say, then its time to say that. its not our problem if you guys don't want to hear what we say.I was hoping to get a constructive dialog going as to why things are so bad re the male:female ratio as indicated by the NRA-ILA's online poll and, now, by my CGN poll. I was looking for constructive comments by both genders, but esp females since they should have better insights into why the problem exists.

I was going to suggest that the gals around here use "female-type" avatars to remind us guys that this is not a men's locker room. But then I realized it might just draw unwanted attention to the ladies by creeps/jerks and drive them away. But then again, if they merely report the c/j to the Mods, I'm confident that they will take care of the c/j.

In another thread recently I mentioned how we all need to be a little more considerate of each other and I'm going to try to be a little more polite online (less use of the rolling eyes smilies, etc.).

I don't really know what, if anything, will change things for the better. It might be that gals really do need their own forum. If so, that says volumes about us pro-2nd A RKBA guys, and none of it good.

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 11:24 PM
Men are also more likely to buy from a woman in my experience

And why is that ? Do you feel less intimidated ? Do you feel at ease because you don't feel pressured ? Do you feel less of a need to sift through the overabundance of information that you didn't ask for ? Or perhaps you don't have that sense of being patronized and she actually listens to what you are looking for.

sorensen440
08-19-2008, 11:38 PM
And why is that ? Do you feel less intimidated ? Do you feel at ease because you don't feel pressured ? Do you feel less of a need to sift through the overabundance of information that you didn't ask for ? Or perhaps you don't have that sense of being patronized and she actually listens to what you are looking for.

well Its likely a combination of things
I wouldnt say less intimidated but men often try to impress women and whats the best way to do that to a sales woman? buy something

Not feeling pressured definitely helps too

sorensen440
08-19-2008, 11:39 PM
and I'm going to try to be a little more polite online (less use of the rolling eyes smilies, etc.).


:rolleyes:;)

Kestryll
08-19-2008, 11:41 PM
OMG, is there really going to be women's section ?

Yes, that is one of the additions I am looking at in the near future.
It will have it's own rules set to try to minimize the feeding frenzy and leg-jumpers that always seem to materialize when a lady posts.

When I get some time tomorrow I want to address this thread, it is an issue that needs to be looked at and not just in reference to this forum.

To answer some of your questions Annie, I don't go to the SAS or LB sites mainly because I rarely get to go to any other forums nowadays. This place takes up a fair amount of my online time. ;)

sorensen440
08-19-2008, 11:43 PM
Yes, that is one of the additions I am looking at in the near future.
It will have it's own rules set to try to minimize the feeding frenzy and leg-jumpers that always seem to materialize when a lady posts.

When I get some time tomorrow I want to address this thread, it is an issue that needs to be looked at and not just in reference to this forum.

To answer some of your questions Annie, I don't go to the SAS or LB sites mainly because I rarely get to go to any other forums nowadays. This place takes up a fair amount of my online time. ;)

how about a flat out no men posting rule?

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 11:45 PM
This is getting interesting. Well, I just want to say that most men wouldn't visit SAS or Liberty Belles, mostly because it probably doesn't appeal to them. In other words, since it involves a focus on women, mainly, men probably wouldn't feel welcomed (even though they probably will be welcomed.) I'm guessing most women probably feel the same way about Calguns. I'm not saying women stay out, it would be great if we had more point of views, but I guess some of our actions or representation doesn't appeal to many women.

OMG, that's my point Charlie, they are 2A sites for women, but about the only thing that I can see men having a problem with is the tee shirts and hats. Everything else is 2A related, and the last time I looked, that was pretty much gender neutral. What they don't have is women posting men in thongs with big guns and objectifying them in some perverted way. I know this may be hard for some guys to understand, but sometimes the comments some guys make here about women is dehumanizing and humiliating. So all I'm saying is be a little more considerate if you are incapable of empathizing with women.

shellyzsweet
08-19-2008, 11:46 PM
OMG, is there really going to be women's section ?

yup!! Kes is making a "mini" expansion. Personally I can't wait!! I look forward to having a "girls only" zone if you will where we can sit back and be girls!

- I would honestly LOVE to have a group of girls who I go shooting with on a semi-regular basis. I see it as a way for women to expand and teach other women how to shoot and get them to become activists and all the while enjoy the social aspects of spending time with one another in a non-intimidating enviorment. Our great great grandmothers did it for YEARS as quilting parties! Now that shooting is more socially acceptable I would love to do it with women around where I live....problem is finding them. But once we got a group going I think it would grow and more and more women would join in. We could meet every month and go shooting and get coffee or something after...it would be GREAT! and we could bring new women....it would just be awesomeness!!!

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 11:50 PM
yup!! Kes is making a "mini" expansion. Personally I can't wait!! I look forward to having a "girls only" zone if you will where we can sit back and be girls!

- I would honestly LOVE to have a group of girls who I go shooting with on a semi-regular basis. I see it as a way for women to expand and teach other women how to shoot and get them to become activists and all the while enjoy the social aspects of spending time with one another in a non-intimidating enviorment. Our great great grandmothers did it for YEARS as quilting parties! Now that shooting is more socially acceptable I would love to do it with women around where I live....problem is finding them. But once we got a group going I think it would grow and more and more women would join in. We could meet every month and go shooting and get coffee or something after...it would be GREAT! and we could bring new women....it would just be awesomeness!!!

This is very cool. Kestryll, you're so such a sweetie !

nobs11
08-19-2008, 11:52 PM
What they don't have is women posting men in thongs with big guns and objectifying them in some perverted way. I know this may be hard for some guys to understand, but sometimes the comments some guys make here about women is dehumanizing and humiliating. So all I'm saying is be a little more considerate if you are incapable of empathizing with women.

The fact is that when you get a bunch of men in a room, sex and girls is one of the first things that they talk about and men are visual. But I agree that they guys here should be reminded that this is not a gym locker room.

shellyzsweet
08-19-2008, 11:54 PM
OMG, that's my point Charlie, they are 2A sites for women, but about the only thing that I can see men having a problem with is the tee shirts and hats. Everything else is 2A related, and the last time I looked, that was pretty much gender neutral. What they don't have is women posting men in thongs with big guns and objectifying them in some perverted way. I know this may be hard for some guys to understand, but sometimes the comments some guys make here about women is dehumanizing and humiliating. So all I'm saying is be a little more considerate if you are incapable of empathizing with women.

IDK....SAS has a women connotation to it in the name itself. I don't think that its about WHERE you get the information, but THAT YOU GET IT. If guys wanna get info on cal guns and girls wanna get it on SAS, thats AWESOME! cause pro 2A people all around win! I think the issue we need to focus on is how do we get more women involved in both?? I don't have a problem with guys not wanting to go to SAS cause its targeted towards women to speak to that specific group. CGN is NOT specifically targeting men, I think its as nikki said a male dominated area and thats a problem kes wants to fix, along with myself and many other women on here!

pnkssbtz
08-19-2008, 11:59 PM
OMG, I'm so sorry. Did my expectation of an honest answer victimize you ?

I'll admit that HoffmanG and Bwiese are insightful, but is that it ?
Seriously, is that the kind of hostile and antagonistic demeanor you are going to conduct yourself in this dialog? Do we really need to stoop to such immaturity? I'm scrolling up, and I think I see a post condemning the member base here for their lack of maturity and their machismo...

Good night to you.

Annie Oakley
08-19-2008, 11:59 PM
IDK....SAS has a women connotation to it in the name itself. I don't think that its about WHERE you get the information, but THAT YOU GET IT. If guys wanna get info on cal guns and girls wanna get it on SAS, thats AWESOME! cause pro 2A people all around win! I think the issue we need to focus on is how do we get more women involved in both?? I don't have a problem with guys not wanting to go to SAS cause its targeted towards women to speak to that specific group. CGN is NOT specifically targeting men, I think its as nikki said a male dominated area and thats a problem kes wants to fix, along with myself and many other women on here!

OK, I won't twist their arms, but at least they know they can and not be offended by the content.

Kestryll
08-20-2008, 12:00 AM
Is there a reason why this is getting confrontational?

Better yet, is there a reason why the confrontational aspects shouldn't stop now?

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 12:01 AM
Seriously, is that the kind of hostile and antagonistic demeanor you are going to conduct yourself in this dialog? Do we really need to stoop to such immaturity? I'm scrolling up, and I think I see a post condemning the member base here for their lack of maturity and their machismo...

Good night to you.

Good night. Pleasant dreams.

I'll be good Kes.

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:05 AM
good god its happening again: and this time in a thread asking where the women are! this is a prime example of why most women won't post.


i can say that i find many of the postings in women with guns are nothing more than soft porn and many women looking to find a friendly gun website aren't going to stick around because of that thread. i'd like to see some guy greased up, thonged, and a pistol stuck in the top of that thong but it appears that calgun soft porn is only allowed if its a woman doing the revealing.

if the original poster had only wanted to hear from men, i wish that had been stated. if the original poster was really interested in what the few of us women that participate here have to say, then its time to say that. its not our problem if you guys don't want to hear what we say.

i question if calguns and its membership really does want women participating.

movie zombie

I agree that the "girls with guns" thread is pretty much soft porn. If its someones GF and they are posting of "real" girls thats fine, but do it tastefully and show some respect for the women in your life. If you want your girl to dress up and take pics with your guns....leave those pics where they belong....on your personal computer, NOT the internet! but by all means if you wanna post pics of your girls shooting or showing off her new paint job or what have you, Please do so!

-I also think the OP DOES want to here what we have to say, and so does Kes....cause he obviously is reading this thread since he just posted here which tells me that we are getting a voice and I am willing to bet that until this thread happened there was largely not a voice on how to make CGN more girl friendly and help with the overall purpose behind this and get MORE women into firearms! My mom tells me all the time "guys aren't mind readers" so unless the ladies here have been blowing up mods e-mails and reporting guys left and right....idk if they even knew it was a problem, let alone how to fix it and we really can't blame them for that cause they can't fix something that they didn't realise was a problem.

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:11 AM
Is there a reason why this is getting confrontational?

Better yet, is there a reason why the confrontational aspects shouldn't stop now?

:hide:

We have angered him.....

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 12:14 AM
- I would honestly LOVE to have a group of girls who I go shooting with on a semi-regular basis.

Why do I feel like I'm about to lose my favorite shooting partner :P

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 12:16 AM
:hide:

We have angered him.....

I'm sorry, I won't do it again.:innocent:

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:23 AM
Why do I feel like I'm about to lose my favorite shooting partner :P

I'm telling John!!!!

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:24 AM
I'm sorry, I won't do it again.:innocent:

lol! So i checked out SAS...they don't have any forums :( I like the chit chat of forums to bounce new ideas off of one another, but seems like a great place to get a lot of info!

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:26 AM
ohh yea....

:useless:

hehehehe

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 12:27 AM
I'm telling John!!!!

bah even john knows your my favorate

shellyzsweet
08-20-2008, 12:34 AM
bah even john knows your my favorate
prolly cause I out shoot him! :D

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 12:40 AM
lol! So i checked out SAS...they don't have any forums :( I like the chit chat of forums to bounce new ideas off of one another, but seems like a great place to get a lot of info!

Point taken, and yes I agree I like to chat as well. Anyway, I'm going to go to bed, I've caused enough hate and discontent to last me for awhile and I'm sooo :yawn: tired. Good night everyone.

johnny_22
08-20-2008, 8:07 AM
However, it also lacks the chat and interaction that calguns.net offers.

http://www.corneredcat.com/

movie zombie
08-20-2008, 8:11 AM
I was hoping to get a constructive dialog going as to why things are so bad re the male:female ratio as indicated by the NRA-ILA's online poll and, now, by my CGN poll. I was looking for constructive comments by both genders, but esp females since they should have better insights into why the problem exists.

I was going to suggest that the gals around here use "female-type" avatars to remind us guys that this is not a men's locker room. But then I realized it might just draw unwanted attention to the ladies by creeps/jerks and drive them away. But then again, if they merely report the c/j to the Mods, I'm confident that they will take care of the c/j.

In another thread recently I mentioned how we all need to be a little more considerate of each other and I'm going to try to be a little more polite online (less use of the rolling eyes smilies, etc.).

I don't really know what, if anything, will change things for the better. It might be that gals really do need their own forum. If so, that says volumes about us pro-2nd A RKBA guys, and none of it good.

i love you, Paladin! can we clone you?! you actually listen and get it.

movie zombie

ps i loved the tv show of the same name also.

movie zombie
08-20-2008, 8:16 AM
The fact is that when you get a bunch of men in a room, sex and girls is one of the first things that they talk about and men are visual. But I agree that they guys here should be reminded that this is not a gym locker room.

there are soft porn online sites out there........and that's where many of the pictures at calguns belong. just what does big boobs, bikinis and guns tucked between said boobs or in the top of the bikini bottom have to do with 2nd amendment rights?

i'm not actually really excited about a women's forum at calguns: separate doesn't always mean equal.

movie zombie

movie zombie
08-20-2008, 8:22 AM
Look at some of the members posting here and look around you at the range. Many gun owners people are civil and polite gentlemen with families and can respect other individuals, but there is no lack of 20 something armchair rambos, loud mouths and impolite *****s. Misogyny, crude jokes, leg humping, excess testosterone and machismo are rampant in this community. I wouldn't want my girlfriend, wife or daughter to hang out with some of the characters around here. It is no real secret why there are so few women.

and you were right on with this one.

movie zombie

trashman
08-20-2008, 8:32 AM
My wife is TOTALLY in favor of gun rights and she votes.

But she doesn't like to shoot, and she would never join the NRA, because thats just not her thing.

Yep, ditto here. My wife has gone shooting with me a few times, and is enthusiastic about guns...or at least "enthusiastic for me to be enthusiastic about guns".

--Neill

Booshanky
08-20-2008, 9:30 AM
On some level, I think the lack of women in shooting sports (and likewise on this forum) comes from an ingrained societal training that boys like guns and girls like dolls. But with the liberalization of society and women becoming more and more equal with men I think that's becoming less of an issue with every year.

I'm 27, and I've taken a lot of girls out shooting and I have yet to have one say she didn't think it was fun.

Where I think the problem lies is in the guys themselves.

Unfortunately the shooting sports and gun-rights advocacy are things that have been almost entirely relegated to conservatives and republicans, who tend to be against women's rights issues and generally condescending and rude toward women who go against the patriarchal structure of society. A quick run down the conservative talk radio dial will net you all kinds of pejorative descriptions of strong women as "feminazis" (as Rush Limbaugh made popular) and the glorification of the "Traditional Family", with a hostility toward those who go against the traditional gender roles that are espoused by it.

A quick perusal of forums like this or a trip to the range will show you exactly what I'm talking about. Guys who talk down to women, condescendingly acting like the big strong men who are going to show the weak women how to shoot. Like the guy I talked about in this post. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1331773&postcount=5)

On the internet it tends to be even worse because of the anonymity that's afforded to men. The talk of women belonging in the kitchen, the constant depiction of women as little more than sex objects who are there just to look hot while holding guns.

The liberal/Democratic movement has a lot of responsibility for the status quo as well. Their adamant illogical effort to restrict the 2nd amendment has been the other force that has pushed both political ideologies into opposite camps. Their efforts have made the issues of gender equality and feminism antithetical to promotion of the 2nd amendment.

The thing is, there is absolutely no inherent reason for things to be the way they are. There is nothing inherently "conservative" about gun rights, nor is there anything inherently "liberal" about restricting the 2nd amendment.

So how do we change this? A big part of it is for men, especially conservative men, to stop looking at the issue of womens rights and feminism as something that's solely in the ideological purview of tree hugging hippies and gun grabbers. Start thinking about how you'd want your wife or your daughter treated when you deal with women. When you're at the range and you see women there, really treat them with the utmost respect, and don't let your buddies get away with any misogynistic talk. Also, guys can be really condescending and rude when they think they're being "gentlemanly". Women that are at ranges, especially women who are there by themselves, are expecting every dude there to be treating them like a piece of meat. Surprise them.

Another thing is that liberals need to start making the case that being pro-gun and pro 2nd amendment has nothing to do with coservative politics. I try to do this, and I try to convert as many people to the shooting sports as possible. More of us need to do this.

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 9:33 AM
On some level, I think the lack of women in shooting sports (and likewise on this forum) comes from an ingrained societal training that boys like guns and girls like dolls. But with the liberalization of society and women becoming more and more equal with men I think that's becoming less of an issue with every year.

I'm 27, and I've taken a lot of girls out shooting and I have yet to have one say she didn't think it was fun.

Where I think the problem lies is in the guys themselves.

Unfortunately the shooting sports and gun-rights advocacy are things that have been almost entirely relegated to conservatives and republicans, who tend to be against women's rights issues and generally condescending and rude toward women who go against the patriarchal structure of society. A quick run down the conservative talk radio dial will net you all kinds of pejorative descriptions of strong women as "feminazis" (as Rush Limbaugh made popular) and the glorification of the "Traditional Family", with a hostility toward those who go against the traditional gender roles that are espoused by it.

A quick perusal of forums like this or a trip to the range will show you exactly what I'm talking about. Guys who talk down to women, condescendingly acting like the big strong men who are going to show the weak women how to shoot. Like the guy I talked about in this post. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1331773&postcount=5)

On the internet it tends to be even worse because of the anonymity that's afforded to men. The talk of women belonging in the kitchen, the constant depiction of women as little more than sex objects who are there just to look hot while holding guns.

The liberal/Democratic movement has a lot of responsibility for the status quo as well. Their adamant illogical effort to restrict the 2nd amendment has been the other force that has pushed both political ideologies into opposite camps. Their efforts have made the issues of gender equality and feminism antithetical to promotion of the 2nd amendment.

The thing is, there is absolutely no inherent reason for things to be the way they are. There is nothing inherently "conservative" about gun rights, nor is there anything inherently "liberal" about restricting the 2nd amendment.

So how do we change this? A big part of it is for men, especially conservative men, to stop looking at the issue of womens rights and feminism as something that's solely in the ideological purview of tree hugging hippies and gun grabbers. Start thinking about how you'd want your wife or your daughter treated when you deal with women. When you're at the range and you see women there, really treat them with the utmost respect, and don't let your buddies get away with any misogynistic talk. Also, guys can be really condescending and rude when they think they're being "gentlemanly". Women that are at ranges, especially women who are there by themselves, are expecting every dude there to be treating them like a piece of meat. Surprise them.

Another thing is that liberals need to start making the case that being pro-gun and pro 2nd amendment has nothing to do with coservative politics. I try to do this, and I try to convert as many people to the shooting sports as possible. More of us need to do this.

:rolleyes:

trashman
08-20-2008, 10:39 AM
Another thing is that liberals need to start making the case that being pro-gun and pro 2nd amendment has nothing to do with coservative politics. I try to do this, and I try to convert as many people to the shooting sports as possible. More of us need to do this.

See, I think what you mean isn't "liberals" but "the other half of our two party system", i.e., Democrats.

Being pro-gun *is* an essential piece of conservative (and libertarian) politics, just as the urban focus on "eliminating" gun violence is a cornerstone of liberal identity politics.

But there are liberal Republicans (who aren't pro-gun) and Conservative Democrats (who are pro-gun).

What you're really driving at (something Gene has relentlessly and correctly advertised) is that to be successful, especially post-Heller, we need to be able to pull support from both parties.

--Neill

Kestryll
08-20-2008, 11:12 AM
i'm not actually really excited about a women's forum at calguns: separate doesn't always mean equal.

movie zombie

As I mentioned, I want to address this issue and part of addressing it will be a new forum for women. I saw movie zombie's comment and wanted to start with that.
What I am looking at is not a 'separate but equal' scenario, wherein there is a Ladies Calguns and a Men's Calguns. Instead Calguns will continue to be open to all but there will be an area that will be kept free of the land-sharks, girlie-pics and 'clever' innuendos.
Less of a separation and more of a refuge in that the women can still post anywhere they want but in this area the guys will be expected to act as gentlemen.

The optimum would be to not need this however at this time that is not realistic. Human nature being what it is, there will likely always be that 5-10% of the guys that want to act like they are in the locker room. I don't know that this is something we want to totally kill of either. Trying to squelch basic aspects of human nature never works and the act of trying often causes bigger problems anyway. It may be that in the future we will need a Men's forum to go with the women's forum and kid's forum. We'll have to see.

As for the 'Where are the Women' question, most of the answers have been well covered here. I do think we will get more women in to this sport and this website if we either drop or curtail the scantily clad pics, 'I'd hit it!' comments and general debauchery.
As has been asked, would you like to be viewed as simply a piece of meat? Some guys will answer 'Sure!' I know but think about what that entails.
As 'cool' as it sounds you also have to remember that this strips away your identity as a person, you're just a chunk of flesh at that point and even the most hedonistic guy is going to eventually realize what he has lost.
You're not a person, you do not have a brain, opinions and ideas. You are devalued in almost every way, just a self-motivated, warm blow-up doll.
Doesn't sound too fun to me.
I think far too many of us forget the other end of 'I'd hit it!'.

Calguns isn't just about being a social club, it's about learning, teaching, making a difference and being a loud voice for gun owners. Many of those gun owners are women.

DParker
08-20-2008, 11:27 AM
My wife has a CCW and carries all the time. She is a rabid Republican and votes our way. That said, she has never even heard of any of these gun forums. She uses the internet only for email, school grades/assignments, and printing the occasional map.

She frankly doesn't understand 'forums' and thinks it's a big waste of my time.

Glock22Fan
08-20-2008, 11:43 AM
She frankly doesn't understand 'forums' and thinks it's a big waste of my time.

Mine too.

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 12:03 PM
On some level, I think the lack of women in shooting sports (and likewise on this forum) comes from an ingrained societal training that boys like guns and girls like dolls. But with the liberalization of society and women becoming more and more equal with men I think that's becoming less of an issue with every year.

I'm 27, and I've taken a lot of girls out shooting and I have yet to have one say she didn't think it was fun.

Where I think the problem lies is in the guys themselves.

Unfortunately the shooting sports and gun-rights advocacy are things that have been almost entirely relegated to conservatives and republicans, who tend to be against women's rights issues and generally condescending and rude toward women who go against the patriarchal structure of society. A quick run down the conservative talk radio dial will net you all kinds of pejorative descriptions of strong women as "feminazis" (as Rush Limbaugh made popular) and the glorification of the "Traditional Family", with a hostility toward those who go against the traditional gender roles that are espoused by it.

A quick perusal of forums like this or a trip to the range will show you exactly what I'm talking about. Guys who talk down to women, condescendingly acting like the big strong men who are going to show the weak women how to shoot. Like the guy I talked about in this post. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1331773&postcount=5)

On the internet it tends to be even worse because of the anonymity that's afforded to men. The talk of women belonging in the kitchen, the constant depiction of women as little more than sex objects who are there just to look hot while holding guns.

The liberal/Democratic movement has a lot of responsibility for the status quo as well. Their adamant illogical effort to restrict the 2nd amendment has been the other force that has pushed both political ideologies into opposite camps. Their efforts have made the issues of gender equality and feminism antithetical to promotion of the 2nd amendment.

The thing is, there is absolutely no inherent reason for things to be the way they are. There is nothing inherently "conservative" about gun rights, nor is there anything inherently "liberal" about restricting the 2nd amendment.

So how do we change this? A big part of it is for men, especially conservative men, to stop looking at the issue of womens rights and feminism as something that's solely in the ideological purview of tree hugging hippies and gun grabbers. Start thinking about how you'd want your wife or your daughter treated when you deal with women. When you're at the range and you see women there, really treat them with the utmost respect, and don't let your buddies get away with any misogynistic talk. Also, guys can be really condescending and rude when they think they're being "gentlemanly". Women that are at ranges, especially women who are there by themselves, are expecting every dude there to be treating them like a piece of meat. Surprise them.

Another thing is that liberals need to start making the case that being pro-gun and pro 2nd amendment has nothing to do with coservative politics. I try to do this, and I try to convert as many people to the shooting sports as possible. More of us need to do this.

Oh my gosh, where do I begin ? When I was a little girl, I had my Barbies and things, but I also played with the boys on my block, and my dad taught me to shoot a .22 rifle. I have two brothers that have always protected me, and when I went into the Army, they tried very hard to talk me out of it. In high school I learned how to surf and scuba dive, and during the summer I practically lived at Huntington Beach. I used to do some very daring things like jumping off of the Huntington beach pier (I got kicked off of the beach one time when I got caught).

Boo, I am a conservative, some people have likened me to being somewhat Anne Coulter-ish, which I wear as a badge of honor. I believe that groups like NOW do more harm than good for women because of their radical stances on issues like abortion and the second amendment. I despise Rosie O'Donnell, Ellen Degeneres, and the feminazis' like Patricia Ireland, or Catherine MacKinnon who made a really stupid comment that "all sex is rape". I like Rush Limbaugh, and if you have ever listened to him and can get through his parody, you would know that he has no problem with women making their own way in the world. In fact I think Rush would approve of my life decisions more so than Dr. Laura, but I'll save that for another thread. As for shooting sports and gun rights being a conservative thing, I believe liberals generally speaking have chosen to abandon the second amendment so as not to be placed in the same category with conservatives. That is a sad commentary on liberals who claim to be open minded and progressive. As for the traditional nuclear family, pediatricians, psychologists and sociologists have said that mom and dad in the home is better than a single parent.

I agree that alot of men have a condescending attitude toward women, but this is another issue that seems to cover the entire politcal spectrum. A girl in one of my classes challenged me to attend a Green Party rally one time and I accepted. Needless to say, the guys were just ewww. They tried to look so open minded and so enlightened. How they came off were just ridiculous. Even the women I met there pointed out guys that were just full of themselves and condescending to women. Back in the 60's there was the "free love" movement, a lie propagated by "enlightened, progressive" men. I don't think any of these men were conservative, but I could be wrong. Bill Clinton has the reputation of "womanizer", would you call him conservative ? As for the internet, I believe someone said that 75 percent of the internet is filled with pornography which I believe is supported by men worldwide.

Boo, I respect your opinion and in some respects you are right, but I don't think that conservatism is the problem, I believe that alot of guys just have an over inflated ego that begs to be stroked....I was going to say something else but that might be inappropriate. Anyway, I'll stop there.

Neil McCauley
08-20-2008, 12:16 PM
All of us need to get involved in more book clubs and sewing circles first and then we may begin bringing them to our meetings :)

I say Tupperware party but with pistols as well.

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 12:30 PM
I say Tupperware party but with pistols as well.

I think a Taser and pistol party would be better, and you can be the volunteer. :p

Ding126
08-20-2008, 2:44 PM
Not trying to promote another site but I see some have mentioned the possibility of a womens section.

http://arizonashooting.com

They have a section for women, and only women have access. Maybe a few of you can sign up and see what they offer and if there are anything in which you find interesting to relay to the admin here for ideas.

Meplat
08-20-2008, 9:12 PM
So, Annie, I don't really disagree with much of anything you say here, why do you insist on thinking I do? WTH did I say that triggered your animus?




Oh my gosh, where do I begin ? When I was a little girl, I had my Barbies and things, but I also played with the boys on my block, and my dad taught me to shoot a .22 rifle. I have two brothers that have always protected me, and when I went into the Army, they tried very hard to talk me out of it. In high school I learned how to surf and scuba dive, and during the summer I practically lived at Huntington Beach. I used to do some very daring things like jumping off of the Huntington beach pier (I got kicked off of the beach one time when I got caught).

Boo, I am a conservative, some people have likened me to being somewhat Anne Coulter-ish, which I wear as a badge of honor. I believe that groups like NOW do more harm than good for women because of their radical stances on issues like abortion and the second amendment. I despise Rosie O'Donnell, Ellen Degeneres, and the feminazis' like Patricia Ireland, or Catherine MacKinnon who made a really stupid comment that "all sex is rape". I like Rush Limbaugh, and if you have ever listened to him and can get through his parody, you would know that he has no problem with women making their own way in the world. In fact I think Rush would approve of my life decisions more so than Dr. Laura, but I'll save that for another thread. As for shooting sports and gun rights being a conservative thing, I believe liberals generally speaking have chosen to abandon the second amendment so as not to be placed in the same category with conservatives. That is a sad commentary on liberals who claim to be open minded and progressive. As for the traditional nuclear family, pediatricians, psychologists and sociologists have said that mom and dad in the home is better than a single parent.

I agree that alot of men have a condescending attitude toward women, but this is another issue that seems to cover the entire politcal spectrum. A girl in one of my classes challenged me to attend a Green Party rally one time and I accepted. Needless to say, the guys were just ewww. They tried to look so open minded and so enlightened. How they came off were just ridiculous. Even the women I met there pointed out guys that were just full of themselves and condescending to women. Back in the 60's there was the "free love" movement, a lie propagated by "enlightened, progressive" men. I don't think any of these men were conservative, but I could be wrong. Bill Clinton has the reputation of "womanizer", would you call him conservative ? As for the internet, I believe someone said that 75 percent of the internet is filled with pornography which I believe is supported by men worldwide.

Boo, I respect your opinion and in some respects you are right, but I don't think that conservatism is the problem, I believe that alot of guys just have an over inflated ego that begs to be stroked....I was going to say something else but that might be inappropriate. Anyway, I'll stop there.

DParker
08-20-2008, 9:38 PM
Mine too.

Then you are in big trouble. You out post me by a mile on all these forums. :eek:

sorensen440
08-20-2008, 9:45 PM
So, Annie, I don't really disagree with much of anything you say here, why do you insist on thinking I do? WTH did I say that triggered your animus?

It appears to me that it was directed to booshanky no?

Meplat
08-20-2008, 9:52 PM
Yes but much of Annies' vitriol has been directed at me.


It appears to me that it was directed to booshanky no?

Angie
08-20-2008, 10:08 PM
- I would honestly LOVE to have a group of girls who I go shooting with on a semi-regular basis. I see it as a way for women to expand and teach other women how to shoot and get them to become activists and all the while enjoy the social aspects of spending time with one another in a non-intimidating enviorment. Our great great grandmothers did it for YEARS as quilting parties! Now that shooting is more socially acceptable I would love to do it with women around where I live....problem is finding them. But once we got a group going I think it would grow and more and more women would join in. We could meet every month and go shooting and get coffee or something after...it would be GREAT! and we could bring new women....it would just be awesomeness!!!

Agreed!! I am actually taking a few of my female friends out tomorrow night to teach them how to trap shoot, without them feeling awkward about men hovering/watching/judging them. I would love if I knew more women to go shooting with, especially as a regular event! While I do love hanging with the boys at the range, it would be really nice to see more women like me getting into guns for the sake of shooting instead of going along with or trying to impress their men; I see that happening all too often :confused:

Annie Oakley
08-20-2008, 10:49 PM
I hate to break this to the world but there is a difference between men and women. Guns are a guy thing. Most women, left to their own devices, donít care any more about a gun than a pairing knife. Itís a tool.

Some women, motivated by the realization that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety, or the discovery of the sheer fun of shooting, or whatever, take an active roll in the 2a struggle. But most do not. I too have introduced single women to shooting. All have enjoyed it, most understand the desirability of having the skills involved, if only for safety reasons. Most do not become firebrand activists.

Men protect the family. Women nurture the family. No matter how politically incorrect these statements may be, you cannot wipe out 100,000 years of evolution. Most real women, with their head screwed on straight, will defer to their man to protect them and their offspring. Itís not that they wont or canít or donít protect themselves their children and their family, itís that it is not their primary mission. They will support their man in a tight spot. If their man is disabled, dead, or absent, they will fight to the death for their family. And they will use the firearm skills you have taught them.

Buy the same token they defer to you to figure out what legislation is good, bad, or indifferent in regards firearms, itís not their mission, itís not their bailiwick. They will support you but donít expect more than a small fraction to be activists. They are there for us, they will vote the right way if we give them the facts they need. But itís not their thing.
Man up, do what you need to do, and trust the girls to support you.

Please read this again, I can't tell you how patronizing this is. Maybe you just don't realize how this sounds from a woman's perspective, maybe you should read this to a woman that you trust and get her reaction. BTW, I have never been angry when I've responded to posts, but I feel that a strong opinion is necessary to express how I feel when I read posts like this. If you will forgive my observation, it seems that the men have had the most emotional reactions on this thread.

aileron
08-21-2008, 6:29 AM
it seems that the men have had the most emotional reactions on this thread.

Yup.... :(

movie zombie
08-21-2008, 8:34 AM
Please read this again, I can't tell you how patronizing this is. Maybe you just don't realize how this sounds from a woman's perspective, maybe you should read this to a woman that you trust and get her reaction. BTW, I have never been angry when I've responded to posts, but I feel that a strong opinion is necessary to express how I feel when I read posts like this. If you will forgive my observation, it seems that the men have had the most emotional reactions on this thread.

+1.

movie zombie

Meplat
08-21-2008, 4:34 PM
Thank you zombie. I like to think of myself as one of the good guys but I seem to have stepped in it bigtime with my first post. Maybe I should not mix CalGuns and white wine?;)

Anyway: I am soliciting opinions of that first post I submitted, and any others for that matter from the women on this forum. Any one who wants to +1 Annie's post I promise I will not be offended only informed.:D

+1.

movie zombie

Meplat
08-21-2008, 5:18 PM
-1's would be nice too.

sorensen440
08-21-2008, 5:21 PM
I hate to break this to the world but there is a difference between men and women. Guns are a guy thing. Most women, left to their own devices, donít care any more about a gun than a pairing knife. Itís a tool.

Some women, motivated by the realization that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety, or the discovery of the sheer fun of shooting, or whatever, take an active roll in the 2a struggle. But most do not. I too have introduced single women to shooting. All have enjoyed it, most understand the desirability of having the skills involved, if only for safety reasons. Most do not become firebrand activists.

Men protect the family. Women nurture the family. No matter how politically incorrect these statements may be, you cannot wipe out 100,000 years of evolution. Most real women, with their head screwed on straight, will defer to their man to protect them and their offspring. Itís not that they wont or canít or donít protect themselves their children and their family, itís that it is not their primary mission. They will support their man in a tight spot. If their man is disabled, dead, or absent, they will fight to the death for their family. And they will use the firearm skills you have taught them.

Buy the same token they defer to you to figure out what legislation is good, bad, or indifferent in regards firearms, itís not their mission, itís not their bailiwick. They will support you but donít expect more than a small fraction to be activists. They are there for us, they will vote the right way if we give them the facts they need. But itís not their thing.

Man up, do what you need to do, and trust the girls to support you.

-1 :rolleyes:

Sam1
08-21-2008, 5:26 PM
:useless:

Nemo
08-21-2008, 5:35 PM
This thread, in and of itself, illustrates part of why there aren't more women in the shooting sports, and why there aren't more women politically supporting 2A causes: our very presence seems to provoke patronizing, hostile, prurient, or otherwise unpleasant reactions on the part of a small minority of men, which makes it an unwelcoming environment (though I've found much insight and comradeship from other men here, indeed).

Welcoming women as an absolutely, equally valued and trusted part of the peer group would go a long way towards forming male-female alliances for the greater good of the 2A.

Meplat
08-21-2008, 7:24 PM
Stop that!




:useless:

Meplat
08-21-2008, 7:25 PM
Thank you

-1 :rolleyes:

Meplat
08-21-2008, 8:02 PM
Aside from this subject. One of the first things I noticed about this forum was that there seemed to be a small abundance of immature people. I mentioned this to my son who explained that these were not the "gunnies" I was accustomed to associating with because I am an old fart and there are a lot of young people here. (Foot in mouth again) Now to the credit of the majority of the forum, only a small minority are really that bad. Annoying, but boys will be boys.

At least that's the way I see it. It is becoming obvious that a lot of the ladies do not suffer this behavior as lightly as I. They are really offended. Some to the point of intimidation that diminishes their enjoyment and participation in the forum. What to do? We need the ladies and we need the next generation. I have a viewpoint on this that will probably get me in even more trouble than I'm in already with all concerned. Later.:43:








This thread, in and of itself, illustrates part of why there aren't more women in the shooting sports, and why there aren't more women politically supporting 2A causes: our very presence seems to provoke patronizing, hostile, prurient, or otherwise unpleasant reactions on the part of a small minority of men, which makes it an unwelcoming environment (though I've found much insight and comradeship from other men here, indeed).

Welcoming women as an absolutely, equally valued and trusted part of the peer group would go a long way towards forming male-female alliances for the greater good of the 2A.

movie zombie
08-21-2008, 9:25 PM
Maybe I should not mix CalGuns and white wine?;)



this is perhaps not only true but one of the funniest things i've read on calguns! perhaps you should add this to your signature line?!:)

Booshanky
08-22-2008, 9:51 AM
Oh my gosh, where do I begin ? When I was a little girl, I had my Barbies and things, but I also played with the boys on my block, and my dad taught me to shoot a .22 rifle. I have two brothers that have always protected me, and when I went into the Army, they tried very hard to talk me out of it. In high school I learned how to surf and scuba dive, and during the summer I practically lived at Huntington Beach. I used to do some very daring things like jumping off of the Huntington beach pier (I got kicked off of the beach one time when I got caught).

Boo, I am a conservative, some people have likened me to being somewhat Anne Coulter-ish, which I wear as a badge of honor. I believe that groups like NOW do more harm than good for women because of their radical stances on issues like abortion and the second amendment. I despise Rosie O'Donnell, Ellen Degeneres, and the feminazis' like Patricia Ireland, or Catherine MacKinnon who made a really stupid comment that "all sex is rape". I like Rush Limbaugh, and if you have ever listened to him and can get through his parody, you would know that he has no problem with women making their own way in the world. In fact I think Rush would approve of my life decisions more so than Dr. Laura, but I'll save that for another thread. As for shooting sports and gun rights being a conservative thing, I believe liberals generally speaking have chosen to abandon the second amendment so as not to be placed in the same category with conservatives. That is a sad commentary on liberals who claim to be open minded and progressive. As for the traditional nuclear family, pediatricians, psychologists and sociologists have said that mom and dad in the home is better than a single parent.

I agree that alot of men have a condescending attitude toward women, but this is another issue that seems to cover the entire politcal spectrum. A girl in one of my classes challenged me to attend a Green Party rally one time and I accepted. Needless to say, the guys were just ewww. They tried to look so open minded and so enlightened. How they came off were just ridiculous. Even the women I met there pointed out guys that were just full of themselves and condescending to women. Back in the 60's there was the "free love" movement, a lie propagated by "enlightened, progressive" men. I don't think any of these men were conservative, but I could be wrong. Bill Clinton has the reputation of "womanizer", would you call him conservative ? As for the internet, I believe someone said that 75 percent of the internet is filled with pornography which I believe is supported by men worldwide.

Boo, I respect your opinion and in some respects you are right, but I don't think that conservatism is the problem, I believe that alot of guys just have an over inflated ego that begs to be stroked....I was going to say something else but that might be inappropriate. Anyway, I'll stop there.


You're totally right that guys acting the way they do toward women does go across the spectrum. I work for a super liberal democrat lawyer who treats his wife like garbage so I know what you mean.

My point is that it seems to me that conservative talking-heads seem to have made keeping women in their place a part of the party plank. I mean, you say that Limbaugh and their ilk are just joking when they say all that stuff, but I know from experience that a lot of the guys who listen to that stuff take it very seriously. They feel very threatened by women who aren't subservient to them and then along comes a political ideology that appeals to them by saying that those women are just *****es, or worse, intentionally trying to destroy society.

Appealing to this ridiculous idea that women are making white males a besieged minority is a huge problem, and while liberals and conservatives both tend to have problems with misogyny, it's the conservative side of the spectrum that uses that notion to appeal to men.

Annie Oakley
08-22-2008, 10:47 AM
Boo, when I was married to my lovely husband, we were married by a lutheran chaplain at Ft. Hood, Texas. Before he would marry us, he insisted that we go through what I can only describe as a premarital class. This class essentially spelled out how the Bible views marriage and it really hit home as to what I was doing.

We had a traditional marriage ceremony and our friends and CO's came to our wedding and it was so beautiful. He was so handsome in his dress blues, as were all of the guys. Anyway, as we were saying our vows, and we came to those words, love honor and obey, I was so happy to say yes, because I really do love my husband although we are separated by death. When it was his turn to say his vows, he was asked if he would love and honor me as Christ loved the church. Without reservation he said yes.

I've read alot of posts here and to some, christianity is something that is hated. Some feminists say that christianity makes a woman a second class citizen, but the words in the Bible that say "husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church" are awesome in their power. In essence pastor Mike asked my husband if he loved me so much that he would die for me.

As Mike counseled us on our duties and responsibilities to each other, we understood that marriage is a partnership, I was not his housekeeper, cook, and personal sex slave and he was not my personal bodyguard, gardner, trash collector, and mechanic. We were equals. Unfortunately, liberal and conservative men seem to remember the love, honor and obey part that women recite, but seem to conveniently forget their responsibilities. Or maybe they were never taught that.

Sorry to have such a long answer, between the tears and the memories I thought I would just share this with you. I hope this helps.

M. Sage
08-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Annie: That post is beautiful.

On some level, I think the lack of women in shooting sports (and likewise on this forum) comes from an ingrained societal training that boys like guns and girls like dolls. But with the liberalization of society and women becoming more and more equal with men I think that's becoming less of an issue with every year.

Wow, so you turn it into a liberal vs conservative issue?

I thought it was funny, considering how conservative I was raised, yet many of the women I knew and respected were gun owners and hunters. My grandmother, who is well into her 80s and one of the most conservative people I know recently started asking about a handgun for self-defense now that she's on her own. If you look back into "old-school" conservative thought, you may just find more equality than you realized was there.

Also, one of the first sports (possibly the first, as far as I know) where women and men competed "heads-up" was skeet shooting, back in the early 20th century. Women, equality and guns have been around for a long time.

Seriously... have you ever been outside the LA/SF areas and lived among these people who you look at with such contempt? You might want to try it sometime.

Annie Oakley
08-22-2008, 11:56 AM
Annie: That post is beautiful.

The memories are better, but thanks.

Meplat
08-22-2008, 11:23 PM
I also think this a touching post. And I cannot disagree with any of it. Men that "forget their responsibilities" are not actually men.