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View Full Version : Replace broken receiver on Reg AW Questions


ptoguy2002
08-12-2008, 10:22 AM
I've got a registered AW where the receiver is unservicable (at least not without major $$$, and it would never be the same afterwards).
It is not a named AW, and falls under ban by feature.
Can I purchase a new rifle that is the same make and model as the registered one in a calif compliant configuration, and ask DOJ to simply change the serial number on the registration to the new #?
I would imagine that this scenerio you could call this "repair", as the receiver is just going to be replaced with a new one of the same type. Its not longer mfg'd now though, so it would be a used one with different #.

I am thinking that I will probably go ahead and try and do this regardless, as the rifle is almost unusable as is, but was wondering what my odds were, and need to know where and who do I need to write to at the DOJ to figure this out and try and do it.

It would be nice if there were precedent for this, cause then I could reference that if neccessary.

M1A Rifleman
08-12-2008, 10:36 AM
Without understanding the problem with your firearm or what it is, in general, my understanding is the receiver is the firearm if it is the part with the serial number. My last understanding of the AW laws is there is no provision for replacement when damaged, broken, or worn out. Can you provide details, what firearm, what happend?

CCWFacts
08-12-2008, 10:46 AM
A manufacturer can re-manufacture a receiver with a given serial number as a replacement. There was another thread where BW mentioned that the DoJ can do this. Look for that other thread; you should be able to get it replaced.

ptoguy2002
08-12-2008, 11:52 AM
Its an HK clone.
Bought it back in the last couple weeks of '99 without knowing much about them.
If you know about HK clones back then, it was real hit and miss.
Mine was a miss.
Its just all outa whack, would need to cut all cut up and put back together right, but even then thats a crap shoot.

bwiese
08-12-2008, 12:03 PM
I don't have the DOJ letter on hand, but have been told by Right People it exists.

Registered AWs are registered and tracked by make, model and serial number.

Your receiver manufacturer would have to:

receive your old defective receiver;
destroy it;
delete that serial# out of their BATF manufacturing logbook;
apply your serial# to a just-finished receiver;
reenter the replacement item in their mfgrs' logbook;



The reman'd receiver's serial # should be exactly the same as your original serial # and should not have any "-R" suffix or odd added prefix. If they for some reason wanted to put some other small supplementary mark *elsewhere* on the receiver indicating reman'd status (which could be for product QA tracking as much as anything), I don't see an issue.

Some manufacturers may not want to do this. [IIRC, this was discussed on ARFcom or AR15-L mailing list back in late '90s about Bushmaster receivers: Bushy would not do it at the time, but Colt would. Besides the crushing wait for Bushy receivers in 1998-1999, this another factor in why I purchased Colt Match Target lowers despite their nonstandard trigger pin sizes and lack of front pivot detent pin.]

Offer to pay, expect some wait and $$ in addition to cost of new receiver.

But if your receiver were foreign-sourced (say, Imbel, etc.) or no longer in biz, you're probably SOL.

[In theory, this latter scenariou would certainly be justification for issuance of an AW *permit* - even though the law indicates AW *permits* are shall-issue and are npt discretionary, DOJ just treats them that way.]

But this reminds me to dig up the letter.

Since it's a Cat III and you're dealing with a receiver, there's no issues of named AWs or any requirement that you go thru a CA FFL w/AW permit. So just go deal with the mfgr directly. In addition, you can receive the
'repaired' replacement receiver without an FFL.

bwiese
08-12-2008, 12:04 PM
Its an HK clone.
Bought it back in the last couple weeks of '99 without knowing much about them. If you know about HK clones back then, it was real hit and miss.
Mine was a miss. Its just all outa whack, would need to cut all cut up and put back together right, but even then thats a crap shoot.

Was this a Todd Bailey Speshul Weppunz gun or a Bobcat Arms gun or was it a Vector clone?

If it's a Vector you have half a chance.

Oh BTW, what I wrote above may be impacted by whether or not the manufacturer changed hands/ownership but kept the same name (i.e, changed FFL under same DBA name). If that's the case, there's a fair chance the mfg books may be closed to such 'editing' as in my prior post.

bohoki
08-12-2008, 12:27 PM
hmm i heard somewhere that a gun manufacturer can rebrand guns

isnt there some way to buy a simalar have a manufacturer remark it with the broken ones marks and then remark the broken one with the origionals markings and then log it as destroyed?


ive oftern wondered about the mak-90 situation

my mak-90 sporter has the serial on the barrel trunnion so if anything happens to it i assume i could change its trunnion to another mak-90 (with a little but of work aquiring another) to another mak-90 stamping

my origional premise was what if i right now duplicated the serial number from my trunnion to the stamping then removed the trunnion from my reciever

then took a similar mak 90 removed its trunnion from the reciever and placed my serialed trunnion on it ending up with what looks just like my origional registered mak-90

now i have a trunnion with a serial on it but its not a gun so i grind off the numbers and attadch that to my old origional receiver do i end up with 2 registered mak-90s?

bwiese
08-12-2008, 4:40 PM
hmm i heard somewhere that a gun manufacturer can rebrand guns

isnt there some way to buy a simalar have a manufacturer remark it with the broken ones marks and then remark the broken one with the origionals markings and then log it as destroyed?

I'm fairly sure that under Federal law that wouldn't be possible, you can't just 'rebrand' something. One exception would be if the source receiver were destroyed enough into "non-gun status" by ATF standards that it would be considered remanufactured from scratch (i.e, a "reweld").

CA ended up in an odd situation with the Evan's Gunsmithing/GBSales drama, where Iggy'd approved of Evan's welding up magwells of rifles with 'named' receivers. After a half-day meeting (late Nov 2006) of top brass in DOJ BoF - upon realizing what Iggy'd done - it appears they gave *California* AW manufacturing permits to Evan's/GBSales to clean up the matter, and that Evans was to round up the Bushies & Colts he sold and re-mark them: while they were still Bushmaster rifles to ATF, it seems they became an "Evan's-Bushmaster" or "Evan's-Colt" brand in California.

Your MAK90 situation is unique/weird in that the receiver is not serialized but trunnion is.

Ding126
08-12-2008, 8:09 PM
Contact Derick:

http://www.azexarms.com/refinishing.html

They do custom work on Hk style weapons. And it's not uncommon to remark a receiver from Hk94 to MP5 in AZ.

They do make flats for all hk9 series rifle which are not considered an BATF item until its formed into a receiver..so I don't see why he couldn't repair yours

Give em a call

bwiese
08-12-2008, 9:06 PM
Contact Derick:
(website)
They do custom work on HK style weapons. And it's not uncommon to remark a receiver from Hk94 to MP5 in AZ.

They do make flats for all hk9 series rifle which are not considered an BATF item until its formed into a receiver..so I don't see why he couldn't repair yours

FAIL WARNING. DO NOT DO THIS.

What "you don't see" is the problem. Dude, you're simply not getting the issue.

Firstly, you cannot 're-mark' a registered Calif. AW and still have it be a reg'd Calif. AW!! That's the original poster's problem.
It's primarily a CA issue, with just some overlap into Fed issues. CA AWs are registered by make/model/serial#.

[Only the DOJ and Evan's Gunsmithing can re-mark guns to change AW status, to cover up an Iggy screwup - an "Iggsception".]
The matters you are referring to regard making a receiver from scratch, or making a receiver from one that's destroyed enough to be considered starting from scratch. The ones made as such would NOT be identical make and model and serial #. The original poster needs to talk with his original manufacturer, should it still exist.

Derrick Martin CANNOT take a piece of metal, form it, and legally call it a Heckler & Koch HK94 nor can he call it a Bobcat Weapons Bobcat 94.

Also, Derrick Martin doesn't have that great a rep here. Some people like his gunsmithing, others don't - and he's not held in great regard by a lot of Calgunners because he came blustering in here taunting Californians and spouting a lot of irrelevant political BS on how to fight the gun war in CA and telling us how to do things from hot-as-Hades Arizona. His brilliant marketing makes me wonder about his gunsmithing. He's probably talking to Kenpo Professor right now.

Ford8N
08-13-2008, 5:58 AM
Your MAK90 situation is unique/weird in that the receiver is not serialized but trunnion is.


ROMAK 991's made by Ohio Ordnance Works (o.o.w.) did not mark the receivers with a serial number either.;) Just really light "OOW, Chadron Ohio" laser etching in the park finish. So the trunnion is what has to be used for the serial.

ptoguy2002
08-14-2008, 7:15 AM
The mfg only said to send it in and they will look at it.
They don't / won't make new receivers with the same serial number, and even if they did, it would have some sort of designator, like a "-B" at the end.

Guess I'm SOL, but like I said, can I try anyway? What is the right contact info for the DOJ?

bwiese
08-14-2008, 10:08 AM
The mfg only said to send it in and they will look at it.
They don't / won't make new receivers with the same serial number, and even if they did, it would have some sort of designator, like a "-B" at the end.

Guess I'm SOL, but like I said, can I try anyway? What is the right contact info for the DOJ?

Please let me look up/acquire some letters before you make contact.
It may take me a week.

CCWFacts
08-14-2008, 11:28 AM
Another question: what if the AW is stolen or illegally confiscated / destroyed? For the illegally confiscated / destroyed aspect, I'm imagining that, for example, I can imagine SFPD might just seize it and not give it back. In that case, the person really is 100% SOL?

Ding126
08-14-2008, 12:14 PM
Bwiese,
I was trying to give the guy a point of contact. I don't see why his receiver could not be repaired. As for your comments of Derick from AZEX I know nothing of his him, his quality, performance etc. or his actions here on the board.

I have heard that you can take a flat to make a receiver ( not in this case ) but a receiver flat may be used in the repair of an existing receiver.

Could the damaged receiver be cut in half keeping all existing ID numbers in tact and have a new section welded? I am not an expert not do I claim to be one.

It was just giving an idea....as a thinking out loud.

I know of sears being repaired in this fashion.

ptoguy2002
08-14-2008, 5:08 PM
Please let me look up/acquire some letters before you make contact.
It may take me a week.


10-4

6172crew
08-14-2008, 7:19 PM
www.m60joe.com can fix stuff.

ptoguy2002
08-29-2008, 10:33 AM
Please let me look up/acquire some letters before you make contact.
It may take me a week.

Bump for letters.....?

bwiese
08-29-2008, 11:30 AM
Still digging it up... the people that have it are a bit busy now :)

ptoguy2002
08-29-2008, 8:46 PM
Still digging it up... the people that have it are a bit busy now :)

10-4

ptoguy2002
11-18-2008, 1:32 PM
Still digging it up... the people that have it are a bit busy now :)

bumpity-bump-bump

bwiese
11-18-2008, 4:04 PM
The breif word I've heard is that such a substitution won't legally fly in CA.
(Whether or not it's detectable is whole 'nother situation.)

grammaton76
11-18-2008, 4:18 PM
The breif word I've heard is that such a substitution won't legally fly in CA.
(Whether or not it's detectable is whole 'nother situation.)

You mean the "half the receiver gone" substitution, or a "replacement receiver" substitution that's gone through the correct channels, ATF-wise?

That ought to also affect the folks who were buying chunks of steel that were supposed to become semi-auto 50cal rifles at some point in the future.

bwiese
11-18-2008, 4:23 PM
You mean the "half the receiver gone" substitution, or a "replacement receiver" substitution that's gone through the correct channels, ATF-wise?

The ATF approved "re-manufacturing" a receiver - destroying old one, clearing it off the books, and making the replacement w/same serial#.

CCWFacts
11-18-2008, 4:31 PM
The ATF approved "re-manufacturing" a receiver - destroying old one, clearing it off the books, and making the replacement w/same serial#.

Wait, earlier in this thread you said that a damaged receiver could be destroyed-and-recreated by the manufacturer, following all the ATF rules on that process. Now you're saying that if a receiver is "totaled", there's no way the manuf. can move the registered serial number to a new receiver while destroying the "totaled" old one?

bwiese
11-18-2008, 4:49 PM
Wait, earlier in this thread you said that a damaged receiver could be destroyed-and-recreated by the manufacturer, following all the ATF rules on that process. Now you're saying that if a receiver is "totaled", there's no way the manuf. can move the registered serial number to a new receiver while destroying the "totaled" old one?

I said I *thought* it was possible for reg'd CA AWs.

It IS possible on a FEDERAL basis - and was even possible during the Fed AW ban to retain Federal "preban" status.

However, it appears that that won't work for CA AW status - i.e, it'd be considered a new AW, not a 'fixed' old one.

adamsreeftank
11-18-2008, 4:50 PM
...
That ought to also affect the folks who were buying chunks of steel that were supposed to become semi-auto 50cal rifles at some point in the future.

Off track, but Mark has always planned on adding an "A" to your napkin rings serial number, so I'm not sure if that idea has ever been fully kosher.