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View Full Version : Anti gun grassroots organizations.


nicki
08-11-2008, 11:45 AM
Gene made a comment about wheter or not there really is any significant anti gun grassroots groups.

Perhaps if they have a weak presence, forget about just sending moles into their groups, why not just take them over.

In their case, sometimes the best course of action is just to let them open their mouths.

It would also allow us to gather local intelligence, especially on local officials who may be playing both sides of the fence.

Many state gun control laws start out as 'local proposals", having ground intelligence and the ability to crush stupid proposals when they are small keeps us from having to put out bigger fires at the state level.

Let's say we get control of a gun control group, we have a city council hold hearings on some gun issue with public notice and comment.

We give fair notice to the anti gunners, but we also make sure pro gunners definitely know about the issue, when the hearings happen, the elected officials see that the ratio of pro gun to anti gun is 5 to 1 or better.

After a few hearings like that, local politicians probably won't want to consider any gun measures except those that expand our rights.

A few hearings like this would give us tools to start maybe changing the direction of local media to try to be balanced.

Nicki

mikehaas
08-11-2008, 7:55 PM
Maybe we should just make our own grassroots organization a little stronger, eh? Because Gene's right - they have no grassroots and your idea would cause us to just spin our wheels. And while we DO have grassroots, we don't want to waste a moment of a volunteer's time.

This is why the association with NRA is so important. They know the enemy and the task that has to be done. They are focused. And they care enough about grassroots to try to make sure we don't waste our time.

I belong to the NRA Members' Councils of California (http://calnra.com/) and we meet once-per-month. Please join me. CLICK HERE (http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/) to find your local Members' Council and where/when they meet

http://nramemberscouncils.com/gfx/mapsmall.gif (http://nramemberscouncils.com/mc/directory/)

M. Sage
08-11-2008, 8:01 PM
+1 to Mr. Haas.

There are a couple flaws to "taking over" an anti group. One: finding an actual grassroots one. Two: hoping that the group is structured in a way that you can take over (anti groups aren't).

csmintel
08-11-2008, 8:06 PM
I think NRA name is played out, though may look to some as a great. What we need is organizations with names like" Citizens for Peace" " Rebuilding Communities", "Retaking Community", " Moms against violance", "californians for street control" or something like that. We need organizations that sound right. All we have is NRA name that is clearly gun-nut to all democrat and liberal electorate alike.

When we have petition from " Californians for street control" collecting signatures for to allow CCW in the state of CA.......we might get more signatures then if it was from nra. Does this makes sense to you guys?

M. Sage
08-11-2008, 8:09 PM
I think NRA is played out, though may look to some as a great.

Examples and reasons beyond the fact that they're hated by the antis?

csmintel
08-11-2008, 8:13 PM
Examples and reasons beyond the fact that they're hated by the antis?

For this discussion only let's focus on the played out name. Democrats are furioius about nra and we don't have any other good organizations to show another example. When there is a chance, the SF mayor blames NRA for all deaths in the city. It would be hard to say that "moms against violence" are responsible for recent shooting of the whole family. Do you see where im getting at?

Corbin Dallas
08-11-2008, 8:51 PM
I look at it this way.


Anti-anything has something to prove...

Pro-anything has nothing to prove because it's already out there...

Let these idiots open their mouths and promote their agenda. The majority of people are tired of being lied to and cheated. All it takes is a little preponderance of the so called evidence these anti's spew and the listening audience will start to wonder.

You cannot change the mind of the anti's, only the lost sheep they are attempting to corral.

movie zombie
08-12-2008, 11:00 AM
I think NRA name is played out, though may look to some as a great. What we need is organizations with names like" Citizens for Peace" " Rebuilding Communities", "Retaking Community", " Moms against violance", "californians for street control" or something like that. We need organizations that sound right. All we have is NRA name that is clearly gun-nut to all democrat and liberal electorate alike.

When we have petition from " Californians for street control" collecting signatures for to allow CCW in the state of CA.......we might get more signatures then if it was from nra. Does this makes sense to you guys?


yes.

as much as most people here at calguns put down anti-s and liberals, unless gunowners come to the table with something that makes sense to them, they aren't going to support changes within the state. its easy to call names and put them down, but in the end, they are needed and necessary if gunowners want effective change. the NRA just doesn't make it: my dad who has been a liberal all his life has owned guns all his life and is in his 80's doesn't belong to the NRA any longer as they pissed him off with something political some years back....i'll have to find out what that was and can do so today when i see him.

if we want to enlist more fence sitters and anti's into supporting the 2nd amendment in the way we that we do, then we're going to have to have a language and line of reasoning that makes sense to them and is inclusive of them. if we alienate them with language and rude comments, then why would they support us? unless we overcome the image that most gunowners are rude and obnoxious, we're going to continue to suffer the same errosions of our rights. the idea that you can continue to knock someone over the head and they'll change just isn't going to work.

if the real goal is to get a group together that will work to appeal to those fence sitters and anti's, then quit the name calling and get to work with a real plan. a statewide letter writing campaign with real facts about real people would be one place to start. a well worded letter with info re the founding fathers and quotes, crime statistics in areas where gunownership is high, etc.

movie zombie

movie zombie
08-12-2008, 11:03 AM
I look at it this way.


Anti-anything has something to prove...

Pro-anything has nothing to prove because it's already out there...

Let these idiots open their mouths and promote their agenda. The majority of people are tired of being lied to and cheated. All it takes is a little preponderance of the so called evidence these anti's spew and the listening audience will start to wonder.

You cannot change the mind of the anti's, only the lost sheep they are attempting to corral.

oh, yeah, this has worked really well....so well that we're recruiting more to our cause everyday and the laws have changed in our favor dramatically. :mad: unless we're organized in an intelligent and cohesive manner, we're going to continue to deserve the gunownership problems we have here in California.

movie zombie

Corbin Dallas
08-12-2008, 2:55 PM
oh, yeah, this has worked really well....so well that we're recruiting more to our cause everyday and the laws have changed in our favor dramatically. :mad: unless we're organized in an intelligent and cohesive manner, we're going to continue to deserve the gunownership problems we have here in California.

movie zombie

And our focused effort did so well with the laws that have passed here in Cali.

How do you fix it? Don't vote for the people who represent controls.

Simple as that.

Educate, not manipulate.

Librarian
08-12-2008, 3:39 PM
if the real goal is to get a group together that will work to appeal to those fence sitters and anti's, then quit the name calling and get to work with a real plan. a statewide letter writing campaign with real facts about real people would be one place to start. a well worded letter with info re the founding fathers and quotes, crime statistics in areas where gunownership is high, etc.

movie zombie
Well, generally a good idea but
<wet blanket>
there's a large group of people for whom no argument will ever be convincing.

Ever see the anti stuff saying "Every handgun is aimed at you (http://www.banhandgunsnow.org/)"? That's not a campaign to get people to think that way so much as it's permission for people to express what they already feel.

Some people think guns are to attack the gun-owners' neighbors. They cannot conceive that a gun owner would most likely use a gun defensively - offensive is all they see.

See also "More Statistics, Less Persuasion (http://www.law.uchicago.edu/academics/circulation5.pdf)" (PDF)
But inverting these meanings, other individuals find guns repugnant. Just as they signify traditionally masculine virtues to some citizens, so guns signify patriarchy and homophobia to others. While some see the decision to own a gun as expressing an attitude of self-reliance, others see it as expressing distrust of and indifference toward others: ď[e]very handgun owned in America is an implicit declaration of war against oneís neighbor.Ē 37

37 Don B. Kates Jr., Public Opinion: The Effects of Extremist Discourse on the Gun Debate, in The Great American Gun Debate 109 (D. B. Kates Jr. and G. Kleck ed., 1997) (quoting Gary Wills).
Lots more at Yale Cultural Cognition Project (http://research.yale.edu/culturalcognition/), for example "OVERCOMING THE FEAR OF GUNS, THE FEAR OF GUN CONTROL, AND THE FEAR ... (http://research.yale.edu/culturalcognition/documents/Overcoming_fear_cultural_politics.pdf)"

We'll probably never convince those people - guns just are not an acceptable part of their world view. They want a world where guns are not necessary, and they figure reverse-causation (getting rid of guns causes removal of need for guns) just has to work.

</wet blanket>

We need a way to marginalize those "True Believer" people. We need to show other people that those views won't lead anywhere useful.

I don't know how to do that.

csmintel
08-12-2008, 3:52 PM
""""Ever see the anti stuff saying "Every handgun is aimed at you"?""""

I think that's more reasons to own guns for everyone. With carefull wording and language we can turn this to our favor::: as , look if every gun is turned on you by criminals....arm yourslef and educate yourslelf.

My grandparents told me when i was a kid, that back in 20's and 30's possibility of getting killed kept everyone sober and polite to each other. people smiled, were courteous and really nice to each other because you never know who has the gun under the belt or the purse.

And even those italian liquor smugglers had to succumb to be polite too as they were killed left and right because of their foul mouth. Not only by their own guys but by people in bars and restaurants. that's why they only went to their own clubs back then.

good old days.

M. Sage
08-12-2008, 6:01 PM
yes.

as much as most people here at calguns put down anti-s and liberals, unless gunowners come to the table with something that makes sense to them, they aren't going to support changes within the state.

You know, I don't find NRA to be conservative... They're pretty non-partisan. I'm actually a pretty liberal guy (socially, I'm a fiscal conservative, though), and have no problems with the NRA being "too conservative". The only place that image comes from is the liberal antis using the C word in a negative way.

movie zombie
08-12-2008, 9:08 PM
its called EDUCATION, dissemination, and just down right plain marketing. that's how the anti's did it and that's how we're going to have to do it. and to get enough votes to matter, its still going to take that kind of work.

the NRA is old hat in many ways and while some don't think its conservative, its tarnished with some baggage that appears to be redneck.

like it or not there is a lot of work to be done to show people that gunowners are responsible and that it is necessary to own guns for many reasons. states that are populated by people who understand these things don't have the gun restrictions we do. its easy to blame it on politicians but when it comes down to it, we get the government we deserve.

movie zombie

M. Sage
08-12-2008, 9:30 PM
Actually, it's called propaganda (or worse). And I'm sorry, but associating NRA with "rednecks" is yet another propaganda slur spread by the antis.

The biggest one lately, though, is that the NRA is the "powerful gun lobby", inferring that the NRA is lobbying exclusively or mainly for the gun industry.

I still haven't heard one valid reason why the NRA should be or is marginalized and should be abandoned. "Their image sucks". Well, it does to people who are dumb enough to listen to people like Boxer or Feinstein and their lies, and those two are going to continue, no matter what you call a group, and the people who believe them will always be stupid.

movie zombie
08-13-2008, 5:57 PM
i'm not saying it should be marginalized or anything else: but the reality is that fencesitters have a negative image of it. we can work within it or work in tandem with it. but if we continue what we're doing, we're going to continue to see our 2nd amendments erode.

movie zombie

Gunm
08-14-2008, 12:17 AM
Good arguments, Movie Zombie.

You will never convert flower child earth mothers who would rather be raped and killed than hold a gun. You know what? Thatís okay too. The world needs all sorts of people. It needs peaceful souls who are capable of creating great works of art free of violence. You donít have to be pro-gun to be a good (or even great) person. (Like say, Mother Teresa.) Donít call them Sheeple. You wonít win anyone over by calling them names.

Responsible gun owners need to show moderates that not all gun owners are White Male Redneck Gangsta Mall Ninja Doomsday Cultists, with ĎMolon Labe!í t-shirts to go with their high-capacity Evil Black Rifles and NRA baseball caps. Gun owners come from all races, genders, religions, and political views. Again, you wonít win anyone over by calling them names. Give respect, and you may get some respect back. If not from them, then perhaps their friends or relatives.

Dianne Feinstein has seen firsthand what a gun can do to a friend. But despite that, she carried. "I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." If gun owners could convince more moderates this is a reasonable view, perhaps progress can be made towards changing laws in favor of gun owners.