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oaklander
08-10-2008, 10:51 PM
There is a lot of interest in AR and AK pistols. Contrary to what some might think, they can be legally acquired in California. You just need to jump through some serious hoops.

WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. YOU CAN ONLY GET LEGAL ADVICE FROM YOUR LAWYER, AND I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER.

That being said, here is how to get an AR / AK pistol in California. . .

1) You must start from either a DEDICATED pistol receiver or an 80 percent receiver. Whatever you do, NEVER ever build a pistol from a rifle receiver.

2) You can get a 100 percent pistol receiver by PPTing it from a LEO or someone who got one from a LEO. You can't just order one from out of state (or in state), since bare pistol receivers don't meet California's "safe handgun" laws.

3) When you build the pistol, you must be aware of ATF "constructive possession" issues. For example, having a short AR barrel and a bunch of unbuilt AR rifle receivers laying around is not a good idea. The general rule is to NEVER have the components for making an SBR in your custody or control. Unless, of course, you have a tax stamp from the ATF that allows you to possess a SBR! Even then, it would only apply to that specific SBR. So see above.

4) With respect to AK pistols (I am not an expert on building AR pistols), you MUST use a pistol trunnion for the rear trunnion. Using a rifle trunnion opens you up to constructive possession of an SBR, even if you do not affix a rifle buttstock to the pistol. I guess you could somehow weld up a rifle trunnion to not accept a stock, but it's easier to just buy one.

5) When you BUILD the pistol, it must be built as a single shot pistol. This is how you avoid the unsafe handgun laws (they don't apply to single shot pistols over a certain size).

12133. [. . .] (b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

6) There appears to be no law that forbids you from LATER converting the single shot pistol to fire more than one shot. But you might wish to document your original build so that you can prove that you built a single shot pistol.

7) AR and AK pistols MUST have a fixed magazine (such as a BB) and must hold no more than 10 rounds in the mag.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: [. . .] (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (B) A second handgrip. (C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. (5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

8) DO NOT affix a forward vertical grip to your AK or AR pistol unless you have an AOW stamp from the ATF.

////////////


WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. YOU CAN ONLY GET LEGAL ADVICE FROM YOUR LAWYER, AND I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER.

Now, you have a pistol. What is the next step?

There is SOME thought that there might be certain advantages to "voluntarily" registering your pistol. I can't go in to the details just yet.

There are drawbacks as well. One drawback is that the DOJ might just decide to come knocking on your door. IF you want to "register" your pistol, here is how to do it. Please remember that I am NOT YOUR LAWYER, and I disclaim any liability if anything bad happens to you!!!

Note that registration does not mean that you can unfix the magazine. It just means that you are in the DOJ's computer system, and this MIGHT give you certain advantages dealing with LEOs.

That being said, go to http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf and fill out the application online and print it. Here is how to fill it out:

Put "semi-auto" for the type of handgun. EDIT: I put "semi-auto" on mine, but Bill has suggested putting "single shot."

The "Make" can be anything you want, as I will explain later.

The "Model" can be anything you want (just don't duplicate a banned model). My AK pistol is a "Model K."

The caliber is 5.56 or 7.62 (or 5.45). Note that they are not asking for the cartridge size.

The "Origin" is U.S. or United States.

Where is says "Acquired From" put "other" then write in "Self Built."

The make, model and serial number should be stamped or etched on the receiver. The markings must be at least .005 deep to match federal requirements. I know there are some 07's and SOT's on the board, and they may suggest other things that you may put on the gun as well. What I'm talking about is the bare minimum to allow you to truthfully fill out the volreg form. I am not referring to what 07's must put on firearms (like location where made).

Once you have filled out the form and sent your $19 check to the DOJ, be prepared to wait about 3 months to hear from them. If you DON'T hear from them, call this person:

Shannon at 916-227-3680.

Be nice to her, as she is the person that actually enters YOUR data into their database.

She will probably want to know the "make" of your pistol and will tell you that "Joe Smith Armory" is not in their database. That is fine.

What you should tell her is that you built the pistol from a kit, and that YOU are the "make." Then *very nicely* ask her to enter "Made in the USA" as the make. That is what they use when they don't have a make in their database. Shannon is not concerned about the fact that your pistol is single shot, that it has a mag-lock, or that it is based on the Stoner or Kalish design. She is not concerned about Calguns. So don't waste her time with that information. All she needs to do her job is the information that you provided on the form, and your respectful request to use "Made in the USA" as the make.

The main thing is to be nice to Shannon. She is a nice woman, so you should be nice to her. Talk ONLY to Shannon. Do not talk to anyone else.

Whatever you do, DO NOT talk to the following people:

Brent George
Dana McKinnon

Brent George is under the impression that an 80 percent receiver can never be bent into a pistol receiver. He gave me a line of crap about that until he realized that I was a lawyer. Then he clammed up, and refused to document his statements in an email. Here is his email:

Mr. X,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding your "single-shot pistol that I built from an 80 percent receiver" (your words). You did not identify yourself as an attorney when asking the Bureau of Firearms for information. Unfortunately, all specific inquiries from attorneys must be submitted to the Department of Justice Public Inquiry Unit. You may contact the Public Inquiry Unit at (916) 324 - 5500 for further assistance. Bear in mind that the Bureau of Firearms cannot offer you legal advice, legal opinions, or legal interpretations.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

Dana McKinnon is no better:

He tried to tell me that AK and AR pistols were illegal because they were "series" weapons. He got quiet after I cited Harrot to him.

Now I've basically given you guys some real inside information. Eventually the DOJ will see this post and try and shut down pistol registration for AK's and AR's. If they do that, they will get hit with another petition to the OAL, since any attempt to do that would be an underground regulation.

It's also possible that Shannon might get some instructions around these registrations. If you get ANY pushback from Shannon, please realize that it is not her. Please let me know, and I will take the appropriate action (such as calling her boss to find out what's up).

Although PERFECTLY LEGAL to the letter of the law, AK and AR pistols are a new thing. And it has not been determined how the DOJ will react when they find out that hundreds of California citizens are building them.

EDIT: please remember that this whole pistol registration tactic is in "beta" right now. I can't predict how the DOJ will react to getting a bunch of these. So this endeavor is most appropriate for those Calgunners who are not risk adverse, and/or have ready access to an attorney.

thedrickel
08-10-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned ;)

oaklander
08-10-2008, 11:50 PM
Is it that new-fangled device known as a camera?

:D

I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned ;)

JeffM
08-11-2008, 12:17 AM
You're making it too easy Oak!



If you want it, you should work for it!

oaklander
08-11-2008, 12:19 AM
LOL! My singular purpose in life is to help spread the EBR disease!

You're making it too easy Oak!



If you want it, you should work for it!

thedrickel
08-11-2008, 12:23 AM
Is it that new-fangled device known as a camera?

:D

Nope, much more tangible than images or video. Much better to CYA. You will probably want one yourself ;)

oaklander
08-11-2008, 12:24 AM
Ah, I already know what it is. . .

:)

Nope, much more tangible than images or video. Much better to CYA. You will probably want one yourself ;)

Ford8N
08-11-2008, 4:30 AM
"You did not identify yourself as an attorney when asking the Bureau of Firearms for information. Unfortunately, all specific inquiries from attorneys must be submitted to the Department of Justice Public Inquiry Unit. You may contact the Public Inquiry Unit at (916) 324 - 5500 for further assistance. Bear in mind that the Bureau of Firearms cannot offer you legal advice, legal opinions, or legal interpretations."

So...this is the DOJ's policy. If you are not an attorney, they can spread FUD to the little people. I wonder if Jerry Brown is aware of these cowboys spreading lies?

oaklander
08-11-2008, 8:03 AM
LOL, yes right after that happened, I got to thinking "do I have to identify myself as an attorney every time I make a phone call to anyone?"

"I'd like to make dinner reservations, but you must know that I'm an attorney."

:rolleyes:

The reason that I didn't identify myself as an attorney was that I was calling for MYSELF. If this rule was true, and I doubt it is, then it means there's a whole class of people in California, who are forbid by policy, from talking with anyone at the DOJ (except to the PIU).

"You did not identify yourself as an attorney when asking the Bureau of Firearms for information. Unfortunately, all specific inquiries from attorneys must be submitted to the Department of Justice Public Inquiry Unit. You may contact the Public Inquiry Unit at (916) 324 - 5500 for further assistance. Bear in mind that the Bureau of Firearms cannot offer you legal advice, legal opinions, or legal interpretations."

So...this is the DOJ's policy. If you are not an attorney, they can spread FUD to the little people. I wonder if Jerry Brown is aware of these cowboys spreading lies?

Python2
08-11-2008, 9:47 AM
Well then if BoF cannot offer legal interpretation how in tarnation can they enforce such law? Geeez.

ptoguy2002
08-11-2008, 9:48 AM
Big question, seeings how you mentioned 5.45 pistols:
I was under the impression (vaguely) that nobody makes (or at least doesn't advertise the fact that they have made) a 5.45 pistol due to the federal law issues regarding pistols and imported steel core ammo.
I do not believe that there is anything illegal about making a 5.45 pistol, but if a lot of people in Cali register 5.45 pistols, then are we risking the ATF then saying that its a pistol caliber and people can't import the surplus ammo anymore?
If I am wrong, school me.

bwiese
08-11-2008, 10:52 AM
Big question, seeings how you mentioned 5.45 pistols: I was under the impression (vaguely) that nobody makes (or at least doesn't advertise the fact that they have made) a 5.45 pistol due to the federal law issues regarding pistols and imported steel core ammo. I do not believe that there is anything illegal about making a 5.45 pistol, but if a lot of people in Cali register 5.45 pistols, then are we risking the ATF then saying that its a pistol caliber and people can't import the surplus ammo anymore?
If I am wrong, school me.

You may very well have a valid point. Remember how Olympic Arms screwed the pooch for us with their OA9x pistol chambered in 7.62x39?

If however the 5.45 ammo were regarded as functionally/structurally equivalent to M855 5.56 ammo then things may be OK though.

ptoguy2002
08-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Can a pistol caliber be registered as "multi"?

snobordr
08-11-2008, 11:26 AM
This is going to get interesting.

bwiese
08-11-2008, 11:31 AM
Can a pistol caliber be registered as "multi"?

In theory it should. If they won't, register it in its original/primary caliber.

The "multi"/"8888" caliber designator was for SB23 AW registrations in 2000.
(It was supplementary identifying info not required by law.)

There's no law banning changes of calibers - must be tons of 357/40 conversion out there, 10mm or 22LRs on 45ACPs, 9mm cylinders for 38/357 revolvers, etc.

ptoguy2002
08-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Or register it as a Caliber .215?
Same thing, less obvious?

Rumpled
08-11-2008, 12:49 PM
In theory it should. If they won't, register it in its original/primary caliber.

The "multi"/"8888" caliber designator was for SB23 AW registrations in 2000.
(It was supplementary identifying info not required by law.)

There's no law banning changes of calibers - must be tons of 357/40 conversion out there, 10mm or 22LRs on 45ACPs, 9mm cylinders for 38/357 revolvers, etc.

Not to mention Thomson/Centers handguns.
Before "safety" laws when you COULD buy a bare receiver, what did they put for caliber then?

eaglemike
08-11-2008, 1:08 PM
Not to mention Thomson/Centers handguns.
Before "safety" laws when you COULD buy a bare receiver, what did they put for caliber then?
There was a box on the form to check that was "frame only" - but I don't remember which form it was. I'm sure someone else will be along soon with a better memory.

all the best,

Mike

RossRinSD
08-11-2008, 3:06 PM
5) When you BUILD the pistol, it must be built as a single shot pistol. This is how you avoid the unsafe handgun laws (they don't apply to single shot pistols over a certain size).

6) There appears to be no law that forbids you from LATER converting the single shot pistol to fire more than one shot. But you might wish to document your original build so that you can prove that you built a single shot pistol.

<SNIP>

Put "semi-auto" for the type of handgun.



Is the part in bold correct?

bwiese
08-11-2008, 3:16 PM
Oak, I'd register it as an SSP. Any semiauto conversion can come after reg submitted/received.

oaklander
08-11-2008, 3:57 PM
Oak, I'd register it as an SSP. Any semiauto conversion can come after reg submitted/received.

Bill, good point - I will edit.

vandal
08-11-2008, 5:53 PM
What was the initial holdup with the registration? They cashed my check back in January or February, I haven't got anything back.

thedrickel
08-11-2008, 6:07 PM
What was the initial holdup with the registration? They cashed my check back in January or February, I haven't got anything back.

You need to do this:

Once you have filled out the form and sent your $19 check to the DOJ, be prepared to wait about 3 months to hear from them. If you DON'T hear from them, call this person:

Shannon at 916-227-3680.

Be nice to her, as she is the person that actually enters YOUR data into their database.

She will probably want to know the "make" of your pistol and will tell you that "Joe Smith Armory" is not in their database. That is fine.

What you should tell her is that you built the pistol from a kit, and that YOU are the "make." Then *very nicely* ask her to enter "Made in the USA" as the make. That is what they use when they don't have a make in their database. Shannon is not concerned about the fact that your pistol is single shot, that it has a mag-lock, or that it is based on the Stoner or Kalish design. She is not concerned about Calguns. So don't waste her time with that information. All she needs to do her job is the information that you provided on the form, and your respectful request to use "Made in the USA" as the make.

The main thing is to be nice to Shannon. She is a nice woman, so you should be nice to her. Talk ONLY to Shannon. Do not talk to anyone else.

Whatever you do, DO NOT talk to the following people:

Brent George
Dana McKinnon

vandal
08-11-2008, 7:48 PM
Right, I'm just trying to understand where the problem is with home-builts in the DOJ registration process that can be fixed with a phone call. Is it a "Just don't register it until he complains" passive-aggressive thing?

I have done voluntary regs on normal pistols in the past and it is straightforward.

hoffmang
08-11-2008, 9:01 PM
DOJ doesn't appear to have the ability to add new manufacturers to their registration database.

-Gene

oaklander
08-12-2008, 2:13 AM
Gene is correct. There's a "fall back" called "made in the USA" but they won't tell you about it unless you ask.

DrunkSkunk
08-12-2008, 2:41 AM
This is just for homebuilds right?

I was under the impression that when I bought all of my dedicated AR single shots that they were registered.

Wiggawam
08-12-2008, 3:09 AM
This is just for homebuilds right?

I was under the impression that when I bought all of my dedicated AR single shots that they were registered.

Yes, if you got them via a FFL then this does not apply.

vandal
08-12-2008, 6:19 AM
Is it even worth having it registered under the "wrong" manufacturer? If somebody ran the numbers would they say "Nope, not registered" since the manufacturer is not what is on the gun?

Gene is correct. There's a "fall back" called "made in the USA" but they won't tell you about it unless you ask.

AJAX22
08-12-2008, 6:47 AM
7) AR and AK pistols MUST have a fixed magazine (such as a BB) and must hold no more than 10 rounds in the mag.




I just wanted to add that the above only applies to pistols that are configured as semi automatic.

there is no magazine detachment/capacity restrictions on pump action pistols, straight pull bolt action pistols or other manually operated types.

If you can figrue out how to run a lever action ar15, then you can do it with detachable mags.

Thanks for getting this out in the open oaklander. you're a credit to the community.

PolishMike
08-12-2008, 7:08 AM
Add something concerning threaded barrels/flash hiders/other attachments - Legal with fixed mag? Permanent attachment? ect.

oaklander
08-12-2008, 5:00 PM
Thanks AJAX!

Good points, and yes - I do really enjoy sharing information like this!!!

:D

I just wanted to add that the above only applies to pistols that are configured as semi automatic.

there is no magazine detachment/capacity restrictions on pump action pistols, straight pull bolt action pistols or other manually operated types.

If you can figrue out how to run a lever action ar15, then you can do it with detachable mags.

Thanks for getting this out in the open oaklander. you're a credit to the community.

oaklander
08-12-2008, 5:05 PM
Here's the code. Just don't install a forward grip - that violates Federal law unless you have a tax stamp.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: [. . .] (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (B) A second handgrip. (C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. (5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Add something concerning threaded barrels/flash hiders/other attachments - Legal with fixed mag? Permanent attachment? ect.

torsf
08-12-2008, 11:51 PM
Yes, if you got them via a FFL then this does not apply.

So, if I purchased this yugo m82 (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=200), have it's gas piston removed out of state, then shipped into the state as a single shot, same thing? DROS takes care of the registration?

gordoe
08-13-2008, 10:46 AM
So, if I purchased this yugo m82 (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=200), have it's gas piston removed out of state, then shipped into the state as a single shot, same thing? DROS takes care of the registration?

Remove the piston and Mag-Lock or BB it and get LEO can PPT it to you, but since it's a pistol it has to be on the "Safe-Approved" gun roster for California, so that's the only way to do it.

bwiese
08-13-2008, 10:58 AM
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1435760#post1435760)
So, if I purchased this yugo m82 (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=200), have it's gas piston removed out of state, then shipped into the state as a single shot, same thing? DROS takes care of the registration?



Remove the piston and Mag-Lock or BB it and get LEO can PPT it to you, but since it's a pistol it has to be on the "Safe-Approved" gun roster for California, so that's the only way to do it.

Incorrect. due to partial info. While an LEO PPT sale is allowable, a functional single shot is indeed exempt from Rostering - if done properly. In fact, most off-list AR pistols imported into CA are being imported as 12133PC Roster-exempt single-shot pistols.

Damn, I'm seeing misconceptions about single-shot status. A piston-removed gun is not a friggin' single shot, dammit! Getting a pistol out of AW status is not the same as making it an exempt single-shot pistol. YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH, otherwise you're just choosing the way you wanna get screwed.

To be clearly 12133PC "Roster-exempt" via single-shot pistol status:

be dimensionally compliant (6" min bbl length/10.5" min overall length);
remove gas piston/close gas port (the latter is also for safety);
install single-shot 'sled' (on ARs these exist for 80gr VLD loads that don't feed in magazines) device;
lock down sled device with some kinda lock just to be on safe side;
if importing gun/receiver, have these changes done OUTSIDE CA before crossing into state to avoid issues w/unclear 12125PC importation language: DON'T have your FFL import the pistol into CA (as a non-AW) then render single-shot status in his shop.

torsf
08-13-2008, 6:01 PM
Incorrect. due to partial info. While an LEO PPT sale is allowable, a functional single shot is indeed exempt from Rostering - if done properly. In fact, most off-list AR pistols imported into CA are being imported as 12133PC Roster-exempt single-shot pistols.

Damn, I'm seeing misconceptions about single-shot status. A piston-removed gun is not a friggin' single shot, dammit! Getting a pistol out of AW status is not the same as making it an exempt single-shot pistol. YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH, otherwise you're just choosing the way you wanna get screwed.

To be clearly 12133PC "Roster-exempt" via single-shot pistol status:

be dimensionally compliant (6" min bbl length/10.5" min overall length);
remove gas piston/close gas port (the latter is also for safety);
install single-shot 'sled' (on ARs these exist for 80gr VLD loads that don't feed in magazines) device;
lock down sled device with some kinda lock just to be on safe side;
if importing gun/receiver, have these changes done OUTSIDE CA before crossing into state to avoid issues w/unclear 12125PC importation language: DON'T have your FFL import the pistol into CA (as a non-AW) then render single-shot status in his shop.


Thanks for clearing that up.

GMONEY
08-13-2008, 6:40 PM
How do you deal with this:

(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip

I mean all of these are outside of the pistol grip?

bwiese
08-13-2008, 6:53 PM
How do you deal with this:

(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip

I mean all of these are outside of the pistol grip?


A fixed magazine firearm with fixed mag in place and/or BB installed does not have capacity to accept a detachable magazine - remember, 'detachable magazine' is defined in 11 CCR 5469(a).

TheDM
08-13-2008, 6:54 PM
"You did not identify yourself as an attorney when asking the Bureau of Firearms for information. Unfortunately, all specific inquiries from attorneys must be submitted to the Department of Justice Public Inquiry Unit. You may contact the Public Inquiry Unit at (916) 324 - 5500 for further assistance. Bear in mind that the Bureau of Firearms cannot offer you legal advice, legal opinions, or legal interpretations."

So...this is the DOJ's policy. If you are not an attorney, they can spread FUD to the little people. I wonder if Jerry Brown is aware of these cowboys spreading lies?

I'd be MORE upset that the fact remains, that attorney or not, you are still a citizen and for all realistic interpretations, a "Customer" of the Bureau of Firearms. If I was a lawyer, I'd take this BS all the way up. Your legal profession does not give the government a right to treat you differently and relieve them of their duties providing the proper services that their agency is paid for by the tax payers to perform, including, assisting you as a citizen to comply with the law. If their role is to uphold the law, seems only logical to me, that their agency would desire to help you perform the task you wish if it is legal... well.. legally! That's their whole mission to the taxpayers who desire to keep within the law voluntarily, even if it means dealing with their sorry excuse for professionalism and relevant knowledge in the area for which they are responsible to serve the public good.

But hey, I'm from Kansas.. we look at things a little differently.

Ford8N
08-13-2008, 8:16 PM
I'd be MORE upset that the fact remains, that attorney or not, you are still a citizen and for all realistic interpretations, a "Customer" of the Bureau of Firearms. If I was a lawyer, I'd take this BS all the way up. Your legal profession does not give the government a right to treat you differently and relieve them of their duties providing the proper services that their agency is paid for by the tax payers to perform, including, assisting you as a citizen to comply with the law. If their role is to uphold the law, seems only logical to me, that their agency would desire to help you perform the task you wish if it is legal... well.. legally! That's their whole mission to the taxpayers who desire to keep within the law voluntarily, even if it means dealing with their sorry excuse for professionalism and relevant knowledge in the area for which they are responsible to serve the public good.

But hey, I'm from Kansas.. we look at things a little differently.


In California, firearm owners are not well liked by the ruling elitists who govern the people of this state. The culture of these elitists is that there is no reason for any person to own a firearm. Period. Especially a firearm that looks "scary". And our DOJ/BOF is influenced, if not controlled, by the Brady organization at the highest levels. But now that we have a ruling from the SCOTUS, the future looks better.;)

CHS
08-14-2008, 7:09 PM
So, here's another method that I thought of, and I'm not exactly sure if this is easier (it's definitely more time consuming).

1.) Buy a stripped AR receiver (HAS to be stripped, no stock attached)
2.) Fill out the ATF form X to manufacture an AOW on your serialed AR receiver, send in 200$ (You'll probably want an NFA trust before you do this)
3.) wait.
4.) When you get your tax stamp, purchase a normal gas operated semi-auto pistol upper receiver (and buffer/spring/tube). It will help if this has a railed handguard.
4a.) Purchase a vertical forward grip
4b.) Purchase a 10rd magazine and bullet button (or prince50)
5.) Install VFG on upper
6.) Assemble lower receiver, following correct order for Mag and bullet button or mag lock.
7.) Put upper on lower.

You now have a AWB-compliant, semi-auto pistol/AOW.

Thoughts? Comments? Not sure if the threaded barrel statute applies since it's an AOW, but it's also technically a pistol.

The VFG is the important part, as it is what makes the gun an AOW. The receiver doesn't have to be purchased as a pistol receiver because you can legally manufacture an AOW out of a normal receiver, as long as it didn't come from the factory with a buttstock (I believe).

Am I missing something?

This would seem to me to be the easiest way of making a semi-auto AR "pistol" in California, but more expensive and time consuming (200$ tax, NFA trust, etc).

The good news is, with the NFA trust, several people can "own" this firearm.

bwiese
08-14-2008, 10:19 PM
Bdsmchs,
That's good from a Fed standpoint... but...
...there may be a risk of a lotta crossover in the state arena (haven't even thought of all the interplay yet) where it could be regarded as state violation of rifle->pistol SBR issues.

I don't really see any benefit of it since it still requires non-AW config, all you get is a useless front pistol grip, and the single-shot exemption is the easiest cleanest way.

SJgunguy24
08-15-2008, 7:02 AM
Well then if BoF cannot offer legal interpretation how in tarnation can they enforce such law? Geeez.

They fear what they do not understand..............Hey!!! WHAT THE F*** DIDN'T THOSE IDIOTS WRITE THE DAMN LAWS!!!!!

swhatb
08-15-2008, 1:01 PM
what about volunteering registering with DOJ a compliant oll, rifle? what steps should one go through and what should be put down on the form?

bwiese
08-15-2008, 1:45 PM
what about volunteering registering with DOJ a compliant oll, rifle? what steps should one go through and what should
be put down on the form?

Do please hold off for a bit, some interesting positive issues may exist and are being analyzed.

But to answer your direct question, just make/model caliber/bbl length (whatever the form says). I will note that there is no semiauto/bolt action etc. choice for rifles on the form - just "Long gun/Handgun" and "If long gun, rifle? shotgun?" check boxes.

Python2
08-15-2008, 2:10 PM
They fear what they do not understand..............Hey!!! WHAT THE F*** DIDN'T THOSE IDIOTS WRITE THE DAMN LAWS!!!!!

Dont think they did, our good old legislators did.

swhatb
08-15-2008, 3:19 PM
Do please hold off for a bit, some interesting positive issues may exist and are being analyzed.

But to answer your direct question, just make/model caliber/bbl length (whatever the form says). I will note that there is no semiauto/bolt action etc. choice for rifles on the form - just "Long gun/Handgun" and "If long gun, rifle? shotgun?" check boxes.

noted...

looking to find out / know what the positive issues exist and are being analyzed.

bwiese
08-15-2008, 4:31 PM
noted...

looking to find out / know what the positive issues exist and are being analyzed.

You'll hear of it here soon if it's worthwhile.

vandal
09-05-2008, 2:47 PM
9/5/08: "Shannon no longer works here."

trinydex
09-05-2008, 5:11 PM
3) When you build the pistol, you must be aware of ATF "constructive possession" issues. For example, having a short AR barrel and a bunch of unbuilt AR rifle receivers laying around is not a good idea. The general rule is to NEVER have the components for making an SBR in your custody or control. Unless, of course, you have a tax stamp from the ATF that allows you to possess a SBR! Even then, it would only apply to that specific SBR. So see above.


this scares me now... if you have an ar pistol... a full sized buffer tube could possibly accept some sort of butt stock attachment (ace skeleton), or a carbine buffer could accept a collapsable butt fixture...

does that count as constructive possession?

9/5/08: "Shannon no longer works here."

uh oh?

bwiese
09-05-2008, 6:03 PM
this scares me now... if you have an ar pistol... a full sized buffer tube could possibly accept some sort of butt stock attachment (ace skeleton), or a carbine buffer could accept a collapsable butt fixture...

does that count as constructive possession?

If you had/have an AR pistol *only* I would not have a full length buffer tube and buttstock alone unless you also had a rifle upper or a rifle/rifle receiver.

trinydex
09-05-2008, 6:34 PM
oh... that's no problem then...

so it's ok to have "spare parts" right? i mean i'd have to have to mate something every buffer tube to some lower or buttstock to make sure that i don't have something lying around that would constitute constructive possession... that's scary.

bwiese
09-05-2008, 7:10 PM
oh... that's no problem then...

so it's ok to have "spare parts" right? i mean i'd have to have to mate something every buffer tube to some lower or buttstock to make sure that i don't have something lying around that would constitute constructive possession... that's scary.

Spare parts or parts for a legal configuration you can make from what you have are OK.

If you have a buttstock, have provisions to make a rifle if you own a pistol/pistol lower.

trinydex
09-05-2008, 7:39 PM
awesome... fear quenched with information.

JeffM
09-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Any news about the "Shannon no longer works here" from vandal?

vandal
09-12-2008, 7:51 AM
I called last week to check on my registration and asked for Shannon. Was told she was no longer there. I may have been one of the first to try it when I sent it in back in January/February. They cashed my check, alerted ATF that I was manufacturing guns, but did not complete my reg. ATF asked me about it during my C&R inspection and there was no problem on their end.

Got a call back Tuesday from someone else. I explained the situation. She checked with her boss and called me back on Wednesday. They want me to resubmit my reg (payment waived of course.)

Any news about the "Shannon no longer works here" from vandal?

bwiese
09-12-2008, 11:38 AM
I called last week to check on my registration and asked for Shannon. Was told she was no longer there. I may have been one of the first to try it when I sent it in back in January/February. They cashed my check, alerted ATF that I was manufacturing guns, but did not complete my reg. ATF asked me about it during my C&R inspection and there was no problem on their end.

Got a call back Tuesday from someone else. I explained the situation. She checked with her boss and called me back on Wednesday. They want me to resubmit my reg (payment waived of course.)

Vandal, please coordinate with Oaklander.

studiojon
09-12-2008, 2:46 PM
Can you move here from another state with an AR pistol if you Make it Cali legal? and Register it with the State?

bwiese
09-12-2008, 4:01 PM
Can you move here from another state with an AR pistol if you Make it Cali legal? and Register it with the State?

You can move here with any pistol that is not a CA-defined assault weapon, "unconventional pistol", etc.

If you render an off-list AR pistol into a CA-compliant fixed-mag configuration (assuming that gun started as a legit pistol as far as ATF was concerned) then you can move into CA with it afterward.

There is no issue regarding "Rostering" and no requirement for single-shot conversion for those moving into CA - these really only apply to CA residents having their FFLs import dimensionally-compliant single-shot AR pistols to avoid Roster considerations.

oaklander
09-12-2008, 9:26 PM
Vandal, please coordinate with Oaklander.

On it.

k

ironpete
10-05-2008, 8:49 PM
I appreciate all the information in this thread and am hungry for more. I know it might seem strange but I feel like an activist. We are playing by the rules but "the Man" still doesn't like it. By providing a united front and being organized and informed it looks like headway is being made...slowly and grudgingly.

Any updates to the upside/downside?
Any more info on who should be contacted during registration?

I'm just awaiting the final info to finish my 80%s.

Thanks for your efforts,
-pete

CHS
10-30-2008, 3:10 PM
I'm just awaiting the final info to finish my 80%s.

Thanks for your efforts,
-pete

Yeah, I posted in the other "80%" receiver thread. There was a letter from the DoJ quoted in that thread, but it APPEARED to only be talking about completing a homebuilt rifle. There was no mention of pistol/handgun in that letter.

I would like some clarification on the legalities of completing a homebuilt handgun.

bwiese
10-30-2008, 3:32 PM
I would like some clarification on the legalities of completing a homebuilt handgun.

You should not build an 'unsafe handgun' (although though there are some Alison letters that say you can, in reference to homebuilt 1911s).

You can build a Roster-exempt single-shot pistol (dimensionally compliant per 12133PC) or single-action revolver (per 12133PC also).

Of course this really only applies to homebrew receivers since it's hard to get a legit virgin/pistol receiver unless it were PPTd to you by someone else (and who also acquired it legally).

Most other folks doing things like AR pistols are importing 'em as 12133PC exempt single shot pistols (with locked-in single-shot sled instead of mag, and no gas tube + blocked gas port).

CHS
11-04-2008, 1:15 PM
You should not build an 'unsafe handgun' (although though there are some Alison letters that say you can, in reference to homebuilt 1911s).

You can build a Roster-exempt single-shot pistol (dimensionally compliant per 12133PC) or single-action revolver (per 12133PC also).

Of course this really only applies to homebrew receivers since it's hard to get a legit virgin/pistol receiver unless it were PPTd to you by someone else (and who also acquired it legally).


Back on the topic of 80% receivers, how do the state zip gun laws apply or not apply?

And do you have any more links to letters from the DoJ about building your own gun? (80% or otherwise).

I want to start a new project (CA-compliant MAC11/9mm), but need to know that I'll be totally covered, legally.

D-FENS
11-04-2008, 5:45 PM
The problem with registering as an AOW is the California has a definition of a pistol separate from the federal definition.

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

This means a gun could be both a CA-pistol and a FED-AOW at the same time.

hoffmang
11-04-2008, 6:14 PM
Back on the topic of 80% receivers, how do the state zip gun laws apply or not apply?


As long as the resulting firearm follows the design of a firearm made or sold by an 07 FFL in the USA, there is an exception in the zip gun definition for that firearm.

-Gene

hoffmang
11-04-2008, 6:15 PM
The problem with registering as an AOW is the California has a definition of a pistol separate from the federal definition.



This means a gun could be both a CA-pistol and a FED-AOW at the same time.

Once an AOW, you remain in "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" land but it is not a pistol since it is an AOW defined in other parts of the Penal Code.

-Gene

bwiese
11-04-2008, 8:30 PM
Once an AOW, you remain in "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" land but it is not a pistol since it is an AOW defined in other parts of the Penal Code.

Yes, and NFA reg'd AOW status takes it out of any other 12020-based 'thou shalt not...." entity (but not AW).

jchen76@gmail.com
11-05-2008, 9:30 AM
Let's say a person owns both an 1 AR style rifle and 1 AR pistol. If that said person owns multiple length pistol uppers and rifle uppers, 1 upper in 7.5 inch, another in 10 inch, two 16 inch would having the extra uppers with no matching lowers constitue constructive possession?

bwiese
11-05-2008, 10:51 AM
Let's say a person owns both an 1 AR style rifle and 1 AR pistol. If that said person owns multiple length pistol uppers and rifle uppers, 1 upper in 7.5 inch, another in 10 inch, two 16 inch. would having the extra uppers with no matching lowers constitute constructive possession?

I think not - unless the dude had 100 shorty uppers or something. A DA can "charge a ham sandwich".

The bottom line is there's a legitimate outcome possible for those shorty uppers.

Flat Broke
11-07-2008, 8:21 PM
I know this thread is based around building single shot AR 15 pistols, but would the same steps apply if I wanted to build a 1911 from a 60% forging? I've been searching on and off for a couple of days before posting my other thread, and anything having to do with single shot relates back to AR pistols (which I may well build from 0% forgings as well).

If I build a single shot pistol (1911 or AR) it is my understanding that it should be marked as a pistol prior to turning the forging into a frame/receiver. Since this would be a home-build as opposed to a purchased single shot, when I register it (which I would so there was a paper trail establishing that it started life as a SSP) do I need to leave the pistol with an FFL for 10 days like other transfers etc? I'm guessing no, but if not, then what mechanism would be in place to ensure that the orriginal SSP met the 6" barrel 10" OAL requirement?

Last but not least, once I have received my registration on the SSP, I might want to convert the pistol to a semi auto. If it were an AR pistol, I understand the need for the fixed magazine. How does that differ (if at all) with a 1911 pattern pistol? Does the fact that the magazine is in the grip of the pistol remove the requirement for a fixed magazine?

I know there are multiple questions in this post, but I've had a tough time finding any definitive info on this subject with the "built from forgings" aspect thrown in.

Chris

CalCop
11-17-2008, 7:50 PM
So, since CA LEOs are exempt from the unsafe handgun law...could I legally own a SIG 556 pistol with 10 round mag and bullet button?

ke6guj
11-17-2008, 8:34 PM
So, since CA LEOs are exempt from the unsafe handgun law...could I legally own a SIG 556 pistol with 10 round mag and bullet button?
As long as you bought the pistol in a non-AW configuration, as a LEO, you should be able to own it, even if it was not on the Roster. And if you could get a AW letter from the CLEO, you could even run it without the BB and use full-capacity mags.

rastro
04-06-2009, 5:44 PM
Bump for good info. :thumbsup:

Sticky?

AG2
04-12-2009, 10:03 PM
Thoroughly confused!

I purchase an CMMG AR 15 pistol stripped lower from a private party and transfered it at my FFL as a pistol.

Can I build out the lower, install a BB and 10 round mag, then purchase a complete upper that has a 7.5" barrel while staying legal?

I am looking at the PWS Diablo and building a 7.5" upper using a Larue Tactical Billet upper.

I have two other CA compliant AR rifles fully built. Is there an issue with having two uppers for one pistol?

There is so much traffic on the issue that it makes it difficult to understand the single-shot verses semi-auto.

TheBundo
04-12-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm confused a little too. Do you NOT HAVE TO register a homemade pistol, even though it's well-advised?

hoffmang
04-13-2009, 1:08 AM
I'm confused a little too. Do you NOT HAVE TO register a homemade pistol, even though it's well-advised?

There are only 2 major reasons to register a homemade pistol:

1. You want to be able to take advantage of the illegal CCW misdemeanor versus a felony for illegal CCW of a non registered handgun.

2. You want the handgun to show up if/when a LEO runs it which may make them think it's "registered" as an AW too.

-Gene

Seesm
05-08-2009, 12:23 AM
I peeked at this post via a buddy because I called him (he has afew pistol AR build) because a local black rifle shop said a pistol build is illegal. I hate FUD and it is all around us... It makes me sick, I need to turn that shop onto THIS thread.

Gene, Bill and Oak you guys rock. I have said it before and suspect I will say it again!! Thanks for all you guys do!!

I want to finish my 80% pistol build up soon but do not want to end up in Club Fed!!

wash
05-08-2009, 8:53 AM
There are only 2 major reasons to register a homemade pistol:

1. You want to be able to take advantage of the illegal CCW misdemeanor versus a felony for illegal CCW of a non registered handgun.

2. You want the handgun to show up if/when a LEO runs it which may make them think it's "registered" as an AW too.

-Gene
That's interesting.

First, when I think about AR and AK pistols, I don't think of CCW, they are a little too big unless you are using a trench coat and you probably wouldn't do that unless you were looking for trouble. It's not that you shouldn't be able to do it, it's just not very practical.

Second, unless it has pistol "AW" features, who cares if they think it's a RAW?

As long as it's legal and registration isn't required, I personally wouldn't register.

There might be other considerations, like if they wanted to prove that an AR/AK pistol is common by a large number of registrations but I haven't heard of that as a goal.

DDT
05-08-2009, 9:10 AM
Second, unless it has pistol "AW" features, who cares if they think it's a RAW?

You are assuming that all police officers in the field have an adequate grasp of the AW laws. It is clear from stories here of rifles being confiscated that this is not the case. Add to this the fact that there are different rules regulating handguns and that the police officer is less likely to encounter evil black handguns and this adds up to drama if an LEO sees your AR pistol. If he runs it and comes up blank he's more likely to hook you up than if he runs the gun and it comes back as a clean, registered gun. The officer may also not believe that there is a registration exemption for homebuilt pistols. If it's a clearly new pistol and not registered you are likely to run into drama.


There might be other considerations, like if they wanted to prove that an AR/AK pistol is common by a large number of registrations but I haven't heard of that as a goal.

I suspect you are coming at this from a "heller" angle and this is not likely the legal interpretation that we will see of "common."

wash
05-08-2009, 9:59 AM
Who cares about a cop that doesn't know the law?

Assuming that you aren't doing anything illegal, if your unregistered pistol is confiscated, you'll get it back. It might be a hassle, but not much more than getting it registered.

Now look at your chances of having your legal pistol confiscated. It's pretty low unless you are doing something stupid.

I would rather stay legal, not register and avoid drawing attention to myself than go to the BOF and say "look at this cool toy I have".

Do you know the saying "registration leads to confiscation"? I wouldn't give them the chance as long as it's not required.

DDT
05-08-2009, 11:04 AM
Who cares about a cop that doesn't know the law?

Assuming that you aren't doing anything illegal, if your unregistered pistol is confiscated, you'll get it back. It might be a hassle, but not much more than getting it registered.

Now look at your chances of having your legal pistol confiscated. It's pretty low unless you are doing something stupid.

I would rather stay legal, not register and avoid drawing attention to myself than go to the BOF and say "look at this cool toy I have".

Do you know the saying "registration leads to confiscation"? I wouldn't give them the chance as long as it's not required.

Some folks would rather be able to use their pistols at a range without having to worry about spending the weekend in jail because a cop doesn't know the law.

You are more than welcome to do as you wish.

wash
05-08-2009, 12:06 PM
I don't worry about that in the least because cops that try to bust people at a firing range actually know and understand gun laws.

The ones you have to worry about are traffic stops, regular beat cops, law enforcement on BLM land or some other random police encounter. Those are all pretty avoidable if you aren't doing stupid/illegal stuff.

I would avoid shooting an AR/AK pistol on BLM land and just use it at the range. I would keep it locked up out of sight when I transport it and follow traffic laws. I wouldn't UOC it (although if it's not marked that would be a good way to avoid having it's numbers run and an arrest might make a good legal case). Do that and there is probably a better than 99% chance that it will never be an issue.

I'll probably never own an AR pistol, it just doesn't appeal to me. I hope that I will eventually make an AK smooth bore pistol AOW, that's way eviler than an AR pistol, it will not be registered with CA.

ke6guj
05-08-2009, 12:10 PM
I hope that I will eventually make an AK smooth bore pistol AOW, that's way eviler than an AR pistol, it will not be registered with CA.doesn't need to be smooth-bore to be AOW, a VFG will work as well.

wash
05-08-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm going to fire it from the hip too.

Lifeofahero
05-13-2009, 2:28 PM
Since Receivers are now documented as just that, a receiver. Not a rifle/ shotgun/ pistol. Yet it is still a firearm and can only be purchased by someone over 21. Can a stripped virgin receiver be made into a single shot pistol if documentation could prove it was never a rifle? DROSed as a 'receiver'. Then later be converted to semi? I know this has been brought up before but I can't find if it has been settled anywhere. Links would help, thanks!

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 2:34 PM
it should be legal to use a stripped receiver to build a pistol out of. But it is DROSed as a long gun, not a pistol, and the right people feel that it is not worth it to risk an SBR charge even though it should be legal to do so.

A receiver is NOT DROSed as a receiver. It may be 4473'd as an "other", but CA does not have that option, so it ends up being DROSed as a long gun.

Lifeofahero
05-14-2009, 11:04 AM
it should be legal to use a stripped receiver to build a pistol out of. But it is DROSed as a long gun, not a pistol, and the right people feel that it is not worth it to risk an SBR charge even though it should be legal to do so.

A receiver is NOT DROSed as a receiver. It may be 4473'd as an "other", but CA does not have that option, so it ends up being DROSed as a long gun.

Dang. So, if worst case scenario... someone made a pistol out of a stripped receiver then was investigated by yada yada... try to prove... yada yada... they loose because in writing it is DROSed as a 'long gun'...

I think the DROS form needs a revision!

*sigh* looks like I'll be making an 80%er then... lol

vandal
06-12-2009, 3:58 PM
Today, 1.5 years after submitting my CADOJ reg for two AK pistols, they sent me my money back. They did not include interest.

The accompanying letter basically states that because I marked Semi-Auto (which they were at the time I sent in the registration but not at the time of manufacture), I would have to have had them tested by the DOJ-certified laboratory to avoid them being deemed "unsafe handguns". They were kind enough to remind me that manufacturing an unsafe handgun is a misdemeanor.

Note -- I did these regs before Oaklander started this thread and recommended registering them as Single Shot as they were originally built.

I do find it strange that they won't enter these guns they consider unsafe into the system, but if my grandfather wanted to register a non-roster gun that he had before there was registration, they would let him.

Some Guy
06-15-2009, 9:40 PM
I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned ;)

Did anything happen with this?

bigbob76
07-01-2009, 8:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrickel
I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned


Did anything happen with this?

2 weeks

Peter W Bush
07-02-2009, 8:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrickel
I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned




2 weeks

i hope so..........................

vandal
07-02-2009, 9:10 PM
Building an AK pistol from a flat with AK-builder guides gives you a single-shot pistol initially because you can't even insert a magazine until you file down the lower guides, and that's after the gun is all together.

Safonator
08-09-2009, 8:18 PM
OK i've gathered that you cannot have a fore grip mounted. My question is this. Would a nylon strap that enables you to keep a hold on the front to keep muzzle flip down considered a grip? It would be removeable as well.

Flopper
08-09-2009, 11:19 PM
OK i've gathered that you cannot have a fore grip mounted. My question is this. Would a nylon strap that enables you to keep a hold on the front to keep muzzle flip down considered a grip? It would be removeable as well.

A forward strap is considered a VFG for NFA purposes.

Although the VFG issue has yet to be ruled on by a court, the BATFE interprets this as manufacturing an Any Other Weapon.

The safest route (unless you want to risk being a test case) would be to just register it as an Any Other Weapon.

Safonator
08-10-2009, 5:44 PM
A forward strap is considered a VFG for NFA purposes.

Although the VFG issue has yet to be ruled on by a court, the BATFE interprets this as manufacturing an Any Other Weapon.

The safest route (unless you want to risk being a test case) would be to just register it as an Any Other Weapon.

Thanks.

SI-guru
08-16-2009, 10:56 PM
Will this sling mount be a VFG then ?
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/12301129/aview/K7-MOUNT-1.jpg

Never Convicted
01-05-2010, 6:33 AM
should be stickied !

bm-bill
01-05-2010, 8:12 AM
I am getting ready to build an 80% AR pistol, has anybody here registered one lately? How did it go?

I have the form printed out and plan to send it in as soon as I am done with my build.

Thanks.

GoodEyeSniper
01-27-2010, 2:43 PM
I have a question, must it be registered because it is a pistol? Or is that strictly voluntary. Reading a few other topics, some people have commented that you don't even have to register it, since you built it yourself, but it's always so hard to find the real answers to California's laws...

I know you don't have to register a home built AK RIFLE, but not sure if there is something more strict about pistols, which I would imagine there is.

oaklander
01-27-2010, 3:46 PM
There is some thinking that "registering" via "volreg" might make things easier in a traffic stop if they discover your guns. Read between the lines to understand why.

The problem is that the woman who was approving the volregs for AK pistols now does not appear to work for the DOJ anymore (or at least in that department).

I only know of TWO people (I am one) who were able to volreg a home built AK pistol.

I would like to hear from others who were able to do it. . . if there are any. . .

I have a question, must it be registered because it is a pistol? Or is that strictly voluntary. Reading a few other topics, some people have commented that you don't even have to register it, since you built it yourself, but it's always so hard to find the real answers to California's laws...

I know you don't have to register a home built AK RIFLE, but not sure if there is something more strict about pistols, which I would imagine there is.

Ford8N
01-27-2010, 4:12 PM
There is some thinking that "registering" via "volreg" might make things easier in a traffic stop if they discover your guns. Read between the lines to understand why.

The problem is that the woman who was approving the volregs for AK pistols now does not appear to work for the DOJ anymore (or at least in that department).

I only know of TWO people (I am one) who were able to volreg a home built AK pistol.

I would like to hear from others who were able to do it. . . if there are any. . .

Me too. :gene:

sytfu_RR
01-27-2010, 5:41 PM
Me too. :gene:

me 3.

airwright
02-18-2010, 7:38 PM
I've spent the last hour reading this thread and quite a few more reading the calguns forums, lots of great info.
A few pages back the subject was brought up concerning a 1911 80% frame build, and then it seemed to slip through the cracks.
I want to build a 1911 from the 80% frame, should i regester as discussed in this thread as a single shot gun? or can i register it as a "normal" 1911?

Flat Broke
02-18-2010, 9:47 PM
As I understand it, and I could well be in error, the problem with the 80% receiver single shot 1911 build is going to be the dimensionally compliant aspect of the exemption. IIRC you would have needed to do something custom to get to the minimum OAL or barrel length. I would still like to get a firm answe on this because it would be cool to do, but after looking at the cost of parts etc, by the time you buy an 80% frame a decent parts kit, and tooling, you're already over the cost of basic Rock Island Armory 1911. It'd be cool to do a full custom job, but it would only be for the "I built it" factor, not a cost savings.

Chis

Swift Justice
02-27-2010, 11:16 PM
Posted this same question under a separate thread in the handgun forum, then I found this thread so I'm posting the same question here.

I'm familiar with all the other AR pistol requirements (single shot, locked bobsled mag for DROS, etc.), my specific question is this (assume no LEO exemption):

Can an FFL receive a pistol marked lower, you assemble it into a completed firearm at his store with your pistol components prior to transfer (he retains possession of it always), and once completed then do the DROS to you under the single shot exemption?

If not possible, then why not? Technically the stripped lower is the pistol (so it wouldn't be manufacturing), as long as the compliant build is completed prior to beginning the DROS you should be GTG, right?

An FFL can technically receive any pistol they want regardless of roster status, it just can't be transfered to a civilian unless it is on the roster or some other exemption applies, correct?

Flat Broke
02-27-2010, 11:32 PM
Posted this same question under a separate thread in the handgun forum, then I found this thread so I'm posting the same question here.

I'm familiar with all the other AR pistol requirements (single shot, locked bobsled mag for DROS, etc.), my specific question is this (assume no LEO exemption):

Can an FFL receive a pistol marked lower, you assemble it into a completed firearm at his store with your pistol components prior to transfer (he retains possession of it always), and once completed then do the DROS to you under the single shot exemption?

If not possible, then why not? Technically the stripped lower is the pistol (so it wouldn't be manufacturing), as long as the compliant build is completed prior to beginning the DROS you should be GTG, right?

An FFL can technically receive any pistol they want regardless of roster status, it just can't be transfered to a civilian unless it is on the roster or some other exemption applies, correct?

I believe the problem here is going to be the ambiguity of the term "manufacturing". Because the FFL hasn't transfered the "pistol" to you, it is still technically their pistol. If you assemble the pistol lower, when the FFL transfers you the completed "pistol", the transformation from the lower to completed pistol appears to have been conducted by the FFL because it couldn't have been done by you because you couldn't have legally owned the pistol lower due to its lack of roster status. So now the FFL becomes a manufacturer in the eyes of the DA, CalDOJ, the Feds, and whoever else wants in on the party; which obviously ends poorly for them.

I could be wrong, but that's my take on why it's a no-go.

Chris

JeffM
02-27-2010, 11:35 PM
Can an FFL receive a pistol marked lower, you assemble it into a completed firearm at his store with your pistol components prior to transfer (he retains possession of it always), and once completed then do the DROS to you under the single shot exemption?

If not possible, then why not? Technically the stripped lower is the pistol (so it wouldn't be manufacturing), as long as the compliant build is completed prior to beginning the DROS you should be GTG, right?


This has been hashed out many times before.

Wrong. It's possible, but you are in fact preforming a "manufacturing" process per the law.

The dealer would need to be an 07 FFL, would have to engrave the pistol with their information, and would be required to pay the 11% FET (if manufacturing 50 or more guns per year). IIRC Bright Spot Pawn got their FFL taken away last year for doing it without having an 07 and following the requirements.

There is an exemption for an 01 FFL to do it on rare occasion "not in the course of normal business" but the actual wording of the law and where the line is drawn is very vague.

Swift Justice
02-27-2010, 11:54 PM
Not doubting the information (thanks all), but then how does anyone get to buy a stripped OLL, and then build it at their leisure? Technically, the lower is the part that is DROSed, regardless of whatever you build it into or never build it into anything.

The pistol lower cannot be DROS'ed to a civilian because it is off roster, not because it is not a pistol yet (like an 80% lower), right? An LEO could walk into a dealer and buy a stripped pistol lower because he is an exempt individual. It is still a pistol. He could take it home and never build it up, or PPT it to you as a stripped pistol lower and it would be roster exempt. Just trying to understand the disparity.

JeffM
02-27-2010, 11:56 PM
Not doubting the information (thanks all), but then how does anyone get to buy a stripped OLL, and then build it at their leisure? Technically, the lower is the part that is DROSed, regardless of whatever you build it into or never build it into anything.

The pistol lower cannot be DROS'ed to a civilian because it is off roster, not because it is not a pistol yet (like an 80% lower), right? An LEO could walk into a dealer and buy a stripped pistol lower because he is an exempt individual. It is still a pistol. He could take it home and never build it up, or PPT it to you as a stripped pistol lower and it would be roster exempt. Just trying to understand the disparity.

The info is out there. Google and the search button will help.

Flat Broke
02-28-2010, 12:06 AM
Not doubting the information (thanks all), but then how does anyone get to buy a stripped OLL, and then build it at their leisure? Technically, the lower is the part that is DROSed, regardless of whatever you build it into or never build it into anything.

The pistol lower cannot be DROS'ed to a civilian because it is off roster, not because it is not a pistol yet (like an 80% lower), right? An LEO could walk into a dealer and buy a stripped pistol lower because he is an exempt individual. It is still a pistol. He could take it home and never build it up, or PPT it to you as a stripped pistol lower and it would be roster exempt. Just trying to understand the disparity.

You have stated the reason within your question. The issue is the handgun roster. The stripped "pistol" AR lower is no different than a 1911 frame in the eyes of CA law. Neither exist on the roster, therefore they cannot be sold to civilians (excluding provisions for certain persons as enumerated in the actual law). As you pointed out, you could technically PPT one, but how many LEO's do you know that would do this? This actually raises another question/scenario. Assume an out of stater had purchased some AR lowers but never assembled them. That person then moves to CA. Because the CA economy sucks, he ends up having to sell some of his lowers. Could he then designate these lowers as pistols (assuming they've never had a stock attached and aren't rifles to the federal governement) and PPT them to a CA resident as a pistol? Since the roster doesn't apply to PPTs, if the seller indicated it was a pistol lower (and it was never built as a rifle) to the FFL, could it be transfered as a pistol? That might be a better question to ask.

As to your scenario, the "manufacturing" issue is at the federal level. The roster is at the state level. When trying to get around the roster, you can't have an 01 FFL behave in a manner that would allow them to be viewed as carrying out the business of an 07 FFL as the previous poster indicated. I think this was pretty well clarified a couple of posts ago.

Hope that helps,
Chris

ke6guj
02-28-2010, 12:15 AM
This actually raises another question/scenario. Assume an out of stater had purchased some AR lowers but never assembled them. That person then moves to CA. Because the CA economy sucks, he ends up having to sell some of his lowers. Could he then designate these lowers as pistols (assuming they've never had a stock attached and aren't rifles to the federal governement) and PPT them to a CA resident as a pistol? Since the roster doesn't apply to PPTs, if the seller indicated it was a pistol lower (and it was never built as a rifle) to the FFL, could it be transfered as a pistol? That might be a better question to ask.
I recall a new CA-resident tried to register some stripped receivers that he brought with him to CA. He tried to register as stripped pistol receivers, but CADOJ refused the application. Seems that the app needs you to declare dimensions for stuff like the barrel, and they had a problem with "N/A". He had to resubmit with the dimensions of the pistol he planned on making listed.

That then brings up the question, do those same "must have dimensions" apply when an LEO DROSes a stipped pistol receiver?

Swift Justice
02-28-2010, 12:18 AM
Thanks, I think I understand the nuances of the 01 FFL manufacturing issues now. Would like to see the Roster go the way of the dinosaur, as I'm sure everyone else does too.

Swift Justice
02-28-2010, 12:40 AM
Follow up question based on the 07 FFL manufacturing issue:
Could an individual (not a dealer or 07 FFL) in another state build a complete single shot roster exempt CA compliant AR pistol and then sell it to you through an 01 FFL? Must it be built by an 07 FFL?

ke6guj
02-28-2010, 1:04 AM
Follow up question based on the 07 FFL manufacturing issue:
Could an individual (not a dealer or 07 FFL) in another state build a complete single shot roster exempt CA compliant AR pistol and then sell it to you through an 01 FFL?yes. That individual would need to make sure that he did not do this on a regular basis. To do so could make him an unlicensed dealer or manufacturer, with bad conscequences. He must not also make that pistol with the intent of selling it to you.

Must it be built by an 07 FFL?unlicensed individuals may make firearms for personal use, and may sell them afterwards. But if an FFL makes a firearmifor sale, it must be made by an manufacturing FFL. In this case, an 07FFL.

ucb
07-07-2010, 9:20 AM
Bringing this back from the dead, has anyone had any luck with this

unusedusername
07-07-2010, 11:18 AM
It is much more mainstream now... there are FFLs (at least here in the bay area) that are selling complete AR pistols.

I know of (at least) Bay Area Gun Vault (Mountain View) and PRK arms (fresno) that sell complete AR pistols. They deal with all the legal madness so all you have to do is buy it.

ucb
07-07-2010, 11:53 AM
Yeah, I know this, however that doesn't address those who construct them from 80% lowers

bigbob76
07-07-2010, 1:04 PM
Yeah, I know this, however that doesn't address those who construct them from 80% lowers

Some people will spend a lot of time thinking about what they can't do. If I had a pistol I wanted in the system I would put the necessary markings on it and transfer it to somebody via PPT then have them transfer it back to me via PPT. So you spend $70 but if it makes you feel better to have it in the system that would do it.

Seesm
11-07-2010, 10:04 AM
I had a phone call from one buddy who built a ar pistol build and was worried that they had to be registered... He said Colfax Tactical had a CD with alot of peoples info put together to help home builders (which they do) But it said you had to reg (vol-reg) a pistol build... I think that info is FUD and have emailed a a few CGn'ers in the know...

My buddies pistol lower has no markings at all and is NOT registered in anyway. It was build as a single shot pistol with no gas system originally... Now it's semi auto and has a std buffer tube with a screw red locktighted on the bottom so a stock can NOT be put on...

I say this is 100% legal...

I also say he can have a couple pistol uppers laying around for THAT 1 pistol lower to change configurations... Am I correct as I think I am?? I know Necro post but this is something near and dear to my heart and I rent my mill out for 80% quite often... Thanks everyone.

thebrassnuckles
11-16-2010, 9:36 AM
I have a question that I could not find an answer to in this thread. (I'll admit, I skimmed)

Say I have a stripped AR reciever, that has never been built into anything...

its just been sitting around waiting...

I build a pistol out of it, and voluntary register it as a pistol... is there anything wrong with that?

long guns arent registered, they are only DROS'd correct? and after 30 days, the dros paperwork is not required to be kept on hand.. (the same reason if your safe full of pistols and rifles gets stolen you wont be able to collect your rifle if they are recovered, unless you have documentation of the serial numbers, but pistols are registered to you so they can trace them back to you.)

I could be way off base though..

safaridave
11-16-2010, 2:12 PM
If you did that, you just built a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)... which is waaaay illegal.

As per the OP... You must NOT build a pistol from a rifle lower. The only way to come into possession of a pistol lower is to a) make it from an 80% reciever and NEVER BUILD THAT INTO A RIFLE, ever! (It must stay in pistol form) or b) buy a marked pistol lower from a LEO thats wants to sell one.

tpliquid1
11-16-2010, 2:35 PM
can a cop buy a bare pistol lower? Or does he have to buy fully built one with single shot?

safaridave
11-16-2010, 2:40 PM
Not sure, but I believe that a cop can buy a pistol thats not on the safety roster... which would include pistol lowers. Still, the easiest way for us "regular citizens" to acquire a pistol lower is to make one from an 80% receiver yourself. Check out the gunsmithing forums... they have 80% build parties all the time.

ke6guj
11-16-2010, 6:54 PM
If you did that, you just built a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)... which is waaaay illegal.

As per the OP... You must NOT build a pistol from a rifle lower. The only way to come into possession of a pistol lower is to a) make it from an 80% reciever and NEVER BUILD THAT INTO A RIFLE, ever! (It must stay in pistol form) or b) buy a marked pistol lower from a LEO thats wants to sell one.

that is debatable. until it has been assembled as a complete rifle, the feds say that you can use a lower (even one that had a shoulder stock) to assemble a pistol out of it. But that stripped lower has to be CA DROSed as a long gun, but long gun does not always equal rifle. But until there is CADOJ opinion letters taking a position on the matter, or supporting caselaw one way or another, it isn;t worth the risk since you can buy a completely assmembled pistol if you don't want to roll your own from an 80%er.

And there is no requirement that a pistol be built from a pistol-marked lower. Does your Glock have "pistol" marked on the frame? What about a 1911?

safaridave
11-16-2010, 8:26 PM
that is debatable. until it has been assembled as a complete rifle, the feds say that you can use a lower (even one that had a shoulder stock) to assemble a pistol out of it. But that stripped lower has to be CA DROSed as a long gun, but long gun does not always equal rifle. But until there is CADOJ opinion letters taking a position on the matter, or supporting caselaw one way or another, it isn;t worth the risk since you can buy a completely assmembled pistol if you don't want to roll your own from an 80%er.

And there is no requirement that a pistol be built from a pistol-marked lower. Does your Glock have "pistol" marked on the frame? What about a 1911?

Fair enough! Thanks for the quick lesson :)

rockdogz
12-22-2010, 8:08 AM
I've been searching and reading, so I think I know the answer but thought I'd post the question anyway.
So as soon as I have completed milling out my 80% lower, I'm good to go as far as taking delivery on a short barreled upper? And no registration is required for it since I made it myself? (Although I agree that engraving a serial number is a good idea)
Thanks

gozuki
05-25-2012, 6:57 AM
9/5/08: "Shannon no longer works here."

It is now Patricia, and they are currently 8-12 weeks behind on processing volregs.

tinman1
05-28-2012, 3:39 PM
Here's a new spin on the AR pistol in CA. Franklin Armory is now building an AR pistol with a 11.5" barrel and a vertical forward grip. They have a letter from BATFE that states it is not an AOW, a pistol or a SBR due to the configuration and it being over 26" long. CA still designates it as a handgun and requires it to be registered as such, but to the feds it's just a 'firearm' with no special registration, tax stamp, etc.
Could this rling by BATFE possibly make it legal to build a similar weapon from a stripped receiver in CA since BATFE hasn't designated it as either an AOW or SBR?
It was previously stated many times in this thread that you couldn't attach a VFG, but it seems you can if the weapon is over 26".
They actually build this thing in 450 Bushmaster, which seems rediculous. However, I have a couple of stripped lowers that are calling me! It could be fun in .556!

stilly
09-15-2012, 5:17 PM
Okay so I made my AK pistol at a build party and it has no markings (except for the trunion and receiver cover) and a mag lock and all but where is the law or letter that says this is legal and what ever happened to that "idea" for whatever was supposed to be made as a CYA in cases like this? I THOUGHT that I saw everything but did I miss a page or something?

Warhawk014
01-13-2013, 7:05 PM
need to bump this thread. some mis informed people on this sight is gonna get themselves into alot of trouble if they dont read the stuff on this thread

Mendo223
01-13-2013, 9:12 PM
so i recently dros'd an AR pistol everything went through fine...

but i was not aware of the constructive possession laws.....so if i have an AR pistol and an AR rifle in my gun safe, is that constructive possession because i can easily swap my uppers and make a rifle into an SBR?


and also what about just owning short barrel uppers? if i had a complete AR rifle, but had an extra 11.5in upper would that be illegal?

what if i had an AR pistol and an AR rifle, both completed, but had an extra short barrel ...could i say in court that it was simply an "extra" barrel for the pistol?

i kind of regret my AR pistol purchase because its made of cheap polymer lower...but maybe its worth keeping around simply to own a few extra short barrel uppers...

Mendo223
01-17-2013, 10:54 PM
btt.....still need to know if possession a short barrel upper is considered constructive possession if you own an AR15 rifle and store them together, since you can easily swap uppers. and if you own an AR15 pistol can you keep extra pistol uppers around?

vivalamexico
09-05-2013, 7:49 AM
Can anyone tell me what this issue with this process is?

Dad owns a virgin stripped OLL in Florida.

He ships it to my FFL with a letter gifting it to me.

FFL DROSes it to me as a roster exempt handgun. Do safety test with similar model.

I build the pistol within 30 days and submit volreg. Either as sb15 exempt or as a SSP (I know not necessary but maybe it makes the DOJ feel better?)

other option: ship lower to FFL07 bring upper and lower tube and all the things to complete pistol. have FFL assemble then DROS to me as a roster exempt handgun.

hawk1
09-05-2013, 9:27 AM
Can anyone tell me what this issue with this process is?

Dad owns a virgin stripped OLL in Florida.

He ships it to my FFL with a letter gifting it to me.

FFL DROSes it to me as a roster exempt handgun. Do safety test with similar model.

I build the pistol within 30 days and submit volreg. Either as sb15 exempt or as a SSP (I know not necessary but maybe it makes the DOJ feel better?)

other option: ship lower to FFL07 bring upper and lower tube and all the things to complete pistol. have FFL assemble then DROS to me as a roster exempt handgun.

First post, interesting. ;)

vivalamexico
09-05-2013, 9:46 AM
First post, interesting. ;)

Why is this interesting? I lurk a lot on these boards it's a wealth of information but I haven't been able to get a clear answer about this process.

VaderSpade
09-05-2013, 9:48 AM
AND the title of the thread IS "Newbies' Guide" so there you go.

Sorry, I don't have the answer.

blackhawke88
10-23-2013, 4:10 PM
If i chop the barrel and tack weld a plate to the back of my unregistered AK receiver blank build, will it become a legal pistol?

CMpapa
01-06-2014, 10:16 AM
Do these rules still stand for 2014? I was going to start building an AR pistol to hunt with but didn't want to start traveling down this road only to find out I was breaking the law.

DS94901
04-01-2014, 8:20 PM
gotta follow this thread

Jesse77
08-28-2014, 9:50 PM
Does anyone know if the muzzle break needs to be welded to the barrel on an AR-Pistol? I can't seem to find that info anywhere on here.

I'm concerned of the threaded barrel on a handgun law.

ke6guj
08-28-2014, 9:56 PM
Does anyone know if the muzzle break needs to be welded to the barrel on an AR-Pistol? I can't seem to find that info anywhere on here.

I'm concerned of the threaded barrel on a handgun law.there is no law that prohibits threaded barrels on semi-automatic pistols that have a fixed mag.

rpulido71
08-29-2014, 11:42 AM
I was wondering what impact would the passage of SB 808 have on a voluntarily registered home built pistol? Would it be subject to re-registration due to SB 808 having the retroactive clause?

Donnovin
08-29-2014, 8:13 PM
Anyone done a successful volreg in 2014? Any guidance on forms, schedule, who to talk to at DOJ,etc?

shaocaholica
11-21-2014, 6:46 PM
So the LEO route is pretty much a unicorn for most people. So that just leaves fully assembled pistols and 80% DIY lowers?

Jason95357
12-17-2014, 2:15 PM
So without SSE after 2014, is this method dead?

Tincon
12-17-2014, 2:38 PM
So without SSE after 2014, is this method dead?

Manufacturing an unsafe handgun is, was, and will be illegal. The type of "single shot" pistol which was exempted from being an unsafe handgun changes Jan. 1st 2015. Of course most people weren't really building a single shot pistol anyway, and having it be single shot at some point in the build doesn't change that.

So the answer, as before, as always, is that this is a grey area, you should consult a lawyer for legal advice, and you should only do what you feel comfortable with based on your understanding of the law and the advice you get from your lawyer.

loner1
12-21-2014, 9:15 PM
Anyone done a successful volreg in 2014? with a Ar Pistol