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Mikeb
08-09-2008, 9:04 AM
I was just reminded that solids are considered Armor Piercing, and AP rounds are illegal in handguns per ATF. So does that mean you can't use or even carry a handgun in condor country?
Thanks
Mike

Bobula
08-09-2008, 9:32 AM
Solids?
ATF?
Dude what are you talking about?

Mikeb
08-09-2008, 9:43 AM
AP rounds in pistol calibers are illegal as per ATF. Brass bullets and copper bullets are considered AP.

Gunaria
08-09-2008, 9:49 AM
This is one of those times I say take these questions to the BATFE & DOJ/BOF and see what they say and please post the answers that you get.

Bobula
08-09-2008, 10:00 AM
Isn't a sidearm, if for defensive purposes, exempt from the lead free requirement? You also can carry lead free fragnible.

Mikeb
08-09-2008, 12:31 PM
OK looks like this guy did some of the heavy lifting... If I could just figure out what it says
From: jbardwel@cassandra.cair.du.edu (JAMES O. BARDWELL )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Armor Piercing Ammunition
Date: 11 Sep 1994 09:14:36 -0400

Below is my revised article on federal regulation of armor
piercing (ap) ammunition. The Crime Bill re-wrote the definition.
Does anyone know what brands of ammo were meant to be banned by the
new sub-paragraph (ii)? I presume it is meant to cover the handgun
equivalents of Barnes Solids; solid copper bullets. But I am not
aware of any such ammo. Solids for handguns made out of most other
metals would have been banned by the superseded langauge.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The definition of ap ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of ATF]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill,
primarily by the addition of bullets intended to be used in a
handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to transfer AP ammo.
#From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above does not
constitute "making" AP ammo; making the bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type
bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its
weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 bullets are not covered,
because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead
is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead
are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not
covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC 922(a)(8)
(with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC 922(b)(5)).
No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
27 CFR 178.121, and 27 CFR 178.125.

18 USC 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
with the record keeping noted above.

Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
to my knowledge, but the definition and sort of
regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - "The term 'armor
piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which
may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

James

SO maybe it says you can own it and shoot it but you can't make it.
reading law gives double vision and a headache
Mike

mister dize
08-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Why would you hunt condors with a handgun? A shotgun is much better.

:D

Mikeb
08-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Why would you hunt condors with a handgun? A shotgun is much better.

:D

AN excelent point, and it does say that shotguns are exempt. It also seems to say the berilium copper is AP so maybe regular copper is not...
hmmm
Mike

CSACANNONEER
08-09-2008, 1:33 PM
If a condor has AP ammo in it's handgun and points it in my direction, I will fill it full of lead free projectiles.:43:

r08ert209cali
08-09-2008, 8:15 PM
since when where condors armor plated?

mister dize
08-09-2008, 11:20 PM
since when where condors armor plated?

DFG saw it fit to give them body armor. It's getting harder and harder to blow those suckers away. I've heard of some hunters having luck with pre-ban .50 BMG, though.

r08ert209cali
08-09-2008, 11:42 PM
DFG saw it fit to give them body armor. It's getting harder and harder to blow those suckers away. I've heard of some hunters having luck with pre-ban .50 BMG, though.

id better just start looking for an rpg then this is getting way to complicated...

CSACANNONEER
08-10-2008, 7:33 AM
DFG saw it fit to give them body armor. It's getting harder and harder to blow those suckers away. I've heard of some hunters having luck with pre-ban .50 BMG, though.

That's a great idea! I've got close to 1000 rounds of turned brass solids and 300+ rounds of turned copper solids. So, I guess I could go varmitting with my 50s.

nothing4u
08-10-2008, 5:23 PM
Isn't a sidearm, if for defensive purposes, exempt from the lead free requirement? You also can carry lead free fragnible.

Only if you're not hunting.