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View Full Version : Want to Help Get Incorporation on RKBA? READ THIS!


Gray Peterson
08-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Ok everyone, I'm sure as everyone is well aware of the Nordyke, the Doe case in San Francisco, and the McDonald case in Chicago. There's also cases in New York City as well that's moving through the criminal courts there.

The argument I've heard is that the incorporation won't happen without SCOTUS intervention, meaning that we'll lose the incorporation battle unless we're lucky enough to get SCOTUS to hear it.

The most memorable incorporation cases are the ones that have been released from SCOTUS, but just as important, especially to us in the gun rights movements, are the decisions made by the District Court and the Court of Appeals on the question. To wit, did they do any sort of analysis on "incorporation", or did they continually pass the buck to SCOTUS and say that only they can incorporate? I'm willing to bet that's what the City Attorneys of Chicago, San Fran, New York, and Alameda County are going to say.

We need to prove them wrong with real life examples from the district courts and courts of appeal where they engaged in incorporation analysis without SCOTUS direction. The first case to decide "incorporation" is the Gitlow case on the 1st Amendment.

This is considered a "Fire Mission", because the more knowledge we can pool together on this, the more we can get information to Gura, Kilmer, Michel and the rest of them so that they can convince the lower courts to do the right thing and incorporate a fundamental right as the Second Amendment.

Liberty1
08-07-2008, 10:07 AM
Wish I knew how to research this.

aileron
08-07-2008, 11:32 AM
hmmm.


Maybe librarian, and some of our legal scholars can write up a quick way to get people to scan through the legal sections looking for pertinent stuff in law libraries, and online.

Then have the more trained eyes browse what was found and parse that for relevance.

Knowing very little about how legal libraries work, and how fast someone can exhaust resources in them, I dont know if thats a good idea at all.

But thought Id throw it out there, in case it breeds a better idea.

EastBayRidge
08-07-2008, 11:41 AM
Don't know how a wide ranging search on this would any more useful more than a junior associate with a few hours of Lexis/Westlaw access (law journals included) and a good treatise on con law. May even throw up more noise than signal.

bwiese
08-07-2008, 1:10 PM
I believe the paths to incorporation are well underway.

Adding more fire or cooks will not result in a better meal.

Gray Peterson
08-07-2008, 6:25 PM
I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to do here.

For example, Gitlow v. New York. This case with SCOTUS incorporated the 1st amendment. 4th, 5th, 6th, and the 8th amendment have also been incorporated onto the states. It would be incumbent to find: What specific SCOTUS cases incorporated these amendments onto the states, and trace their steps back to the district court.

Again, Westlaw access is recommended, but we have 40,000 members and lots of people looking. The cooks obviously are Gura, Michel, and Kilmer, but I'd like to be able to hand them the ingredients that knocks the cases out of the park in the lower courts.

jmlivingston
08-08-2008, 6:39 AM
For example, Gitlow v. New York. This case with SCOTUS incorporated the 1st amendment. 4th, 5th, 6th, and the 8th amendment have also been incorporated onto the states. It would be incumbent to find: What specific SCOTUS cases incorporated these amendments onto the states, and trace their steps back to the district court.



I'll bet any constitutional law professor could answer that off the top of their head. I'm not sure why you need 40,000 people with Westlaw access to find that information out. Heck, a few minutes on Wikipedia will probably give you half the answers you're looking for. (I just found the details of the 4th being incorporated in about 5 minutes while typing this note and turning on cartoons for my son) I'd suggest that all you're going to end up doing is filling up mailboxes with stuff that the attorneys already have/know and will spend weeks just sifting out.

I understand the help you're trying to provide, but I really think it's going to be more detrimental than anything.

John

Gray Peterson
08-08-2008, 10:31 AM
I found the information that I'm looking for on Wikipedia, on incorporation. Must have not been typing it right.

I didn't say 40,000 people with Westlaw access. 40,000, some of whom May have Westlaw access, etc. No one was suggesting just wildly emailing the plaintiff attorneys, just a collection of information into one particular thread.

Besides, I generally found what I looked for. Unfortunately all of the cases that I've seen on incorporation has been certiorari from the highest appellate courts of the particular state (State Supreme Courts). With the exception of the Everson case (a first amendment establishment clause case), the state courts almost universally would not apply incorporation principles. In the Everson case, the court of original jurisdiction (state superior court) agreed with the plaintiffs that filed suit against that school district, but they may have agreed with the plaintiffs under the NJ constitution at that time.

So a whole lot of nothing. :/

Good news, though, is that it seems that none of these are referrals from the Federal Court of Appeals system. So that means that if Chicago, Alameda County, or San Francisco tries to tell the federal court system that it can't incorporate or do incorporation analysis, it would be completely without any merit.

hoffmang
08-09-2008, 2:55 PM
To get a concise history of the cases, I suggest either finding my thread on incorporation or just reading Gura and team's filing in Chicago here (http://www.chicagoguncase.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/chicago_summary_judgment_brief.pdf).

-Gene