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View Full Version : Civil disobedience, risks


nicki
08-05-2008, 10:41 AM
We have many lawsuits going and I just want to make a comment about the use of the judicial system for "Public Education" on "government policy".

Our "public servants" have adopted the attitude that they are our "Masters" and the courts have let them get away with it.

Take a look at what happens when we pass voter intiatives and how they drag their feet and undermine the will of the people.

The majority of the Public doesn't understand the real issues, all they see is kids dying on the streets, the "police trying to keep them safe" .

Anti gun Police say "Guns cause crime", then we come around and talk about our rights. When it is us against the police, we lose.

The track record in "gun hostile" counties speaks for itself. Any chance the DA's get, they will push for the max.

The concept of the DA's offices engaging in what I call political prosecutions to send a message scares me.

It also worries other political groups also and perhaps it is an issue that we and some of our opponents such as the ACLU can set aside our differences and work to end such practices.

Misdemeanor arrests for carrying without a license are now carrying court imposed penalties of probation and the terms of the probation are that you can't own any guns.

I confirmed this when I read a story on a woman who was prosecuted in San Mateo who unfortunately had an expired restraining order against a psycho ex husband and she inadvertently left her purse in a food store.

I had thought that ccw without a license would be a fine until this happened.

I called the Cal DOJ firearms division and they told me that it was something that judges were doing in various parts of the state.

Recall that 4 out of 5 SCOTUS judges would rule that the DC handgun ban is reasonable gun control.

Cal guns is stretched on cases and comments were made don't do anything unless you have 10 to 20K to spend on lawyers.

Cal Guns and others are dealing with a cesspool of a broken judicial system, crorrupt politicians and opponents that will stop at nothing to destroy our freedoms because what our opponents want is control.

What we and the general public sees is an illusion, reality is ugly.

I would like to add that you also should consider that you could wind up with max jail time. On a loaed gun charge, you could in theory get 1 year in jail.

If you have 20K, can take the time to sit it out in jail, don't have to worry about things like a job, carrer, business, spouse, kids, then maybe you are in a position to go all out.

I don't think most of us fit this bill.

It doesn't matter if the jails are over crowded, you are a political example, you would be special.

I view 1913 as the year our Republic was officially murdered, as much as I hate to say it, we are a socialist democracy now.

We live in what I call "soft tyranny".

Soft tyranny works because the people who are controlled are in their comfort zones like a Frog in a pot of slowly heating water.:

Of course the pot is really hot now and some frogs are hopping out:D

Nicki

BroncoBob
08-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Nicki: You continue to amaze me with your topics and writtings. You have a gift that I can only dream of. Keep up the great work!!

rayra
08-05-2008, 10:42 PM
Meh. Telling us what we already know. How about some ideas for a public education campaign to deconstruct the massive anti-gun frauds perpetrated by those same authoritarian socialists? Say something like Oleg Volks' pictures or a viral campaign to expose the fraud in things like the Brady nonsense re 'Kids killed by guns'. Or the fraud underpinning the string of anti-gun bills put forward every session.
Something that can make plain the blatant lies engaged in by our political enemies. Or the massive hypocrisy of a Perata or Feinstein who go about armed while endevouring to disarm the rest of us?
Something that exposes the fraud and lobbyist manipulations behind ammo serialization and the three liberal douchebags who are behind it all, primarily for their own get-rich patent scheme?
We need education and outreach programs to inform and sway the general public to our cause.
The lack of such is one of my primary beefs with the NRA - during the run-up tot he 1994 AWB they did next to nothing to inform and stir the public about the fraud being perpetrated. About what an 'assault weapon' actually is AND ISN'T. They did their usual inside-the-Beltway nonsense and failed to block the useless garbage that was the '94 AWB. And in the fourteen years since, they've STILL failed to educate the masses about such issues. The general public remains as ignorant as ever (if not more so) re the elemental issues at the heart of the enemy's anti-gun propaganda.

Guess I need to take my own advice / complaint and start doing something about it. Fomenting / rehashing on gun forums doesn't do any good.

Theseus
08-05-2008, 10:52 PM
I have an idea. . Why don't we work with some school systems to build a "Gun Club". They will be able to learn about weapons, the history of them, safety, even nurture them to prepare for competitions!

The schools are looking for some after-school programs, and if we can fund them properly I don't see why we wouldn't be able to pull it off.

PanzerAce
08-06-2008, 12:05 AM
I have an idea. . Why don't we work with some school systems to build a "Gun Club". They will be able to learn about weapons, the history of them, safety, even nurture them to prepare for competitions!

The schools are looking for some after-school programs, and if we can fund them properly I don't see why we wouldn't be able to pull it off.

Good luck with that. I helped start the Sport Shoot Club at the UC Merced campus. It took us almost two years just to become a club from the point that the first paperwork was submitted to the point we could hold events, and that was WITH most of the school body and administration on our side.

Matt C
08-06-2008, 12:09 AM
You talk about not being in a position to go all out, but then you say that our Republic is dead and we are in a socialist democracy.

Maybe it's because no one stood up and took the risks that we got here.

But maybe we have realized that we are on a precipice, and are standing together and doing something about it, because if not now, then when?

I see that you are a new member here, and maybe things seem hopeless, but I can tell you that since I joined this forum in early 2006 Things Have Changed, calgunners have made a difference, and we are winning battles.

We may not win every battle, but slowly and surely we are taking the lead, making those who would take our freedoms very nervous, and, I think, winning them back one at a time.

"I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law...I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live...

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

nicki
08-06-2008, 2:32 AM
I strongly believe in taking ACTION, but having done some majorily dumb things in my life because I thought that we actually lived under the constitution and the rule of law was certainly a pricey education.

But I lived, I'm here and I went on to do other things like jump out of planes, go to a Anthony Robbins UPW event and actually walk across hot coals after signing a waiver of course(estimated coal temp 1200 to 1400f).

Ever see the movie the Matrix. The veterans on this forum have swallowed the red pill, but their are many newcomers who visit who are green.

The amount of posts we got of people doing unloaded open carry when many of these people don't realize how much they really are sticking there necks out.

We need court cases, but on our terms, we need our lawyers to be on OFFENSE, not defense.

It is refreshing to see people who will jump in the fire, it appears that gun owners are finally coming back to life in this state.

I just don't want to see people getting burnt and that was the main emphasis of the post is to beg people not to unnecessarily throw themselves onto the tracks so to speak.

The socialist democracy we have won't last and it will collapse very soon because our country cannot support the culture of dependency.

Donald Trump and Robert Kiyosaki cowrote a book last year, Why we want you to be Rich. If we continue the course, the middle class will get wiped out.

I bring this up because people fear economic collapse.
Our rights are most in danger during times of crisis.

Collapse of the German Marc and the economic chaos that followed is why the Germans elected Hitler. People will give up freedom for security.

Democracies destroy rights, Republics protect them. The trouble is most people don't know the difference.

Most people don't know history and as such, will repeat it.

I am not a doom and gloom, I honestly belief that we can fix many of our big problems such as medicare, social security, energy dependence and economic competitiveness because the solutions do exist.

Many solutions can be started by individuals first, we don't need the government nor do we really want the government to lead the way.

I'm not going to go into details here since I am in the process of having my own website built.

I have many parts of my life and as a result, it is a time consuming process putting content together.

Let's keep in mind that we are all interdependent on each other. .

This forum has about 15,000 registered members. We need to grow in size so that we can have a effective presence in every county of this state.

I believe the best court cases are the ones we never have to file because we blocked the law from passing in the first place.

Fjold
08-06-2008, 6:45 AM
4 out of 9 Justices didn't agree with the majority decision, not 4 out of 5 said that the DC restrictions were reasonable.

motorhead
08-06-2008, 8:00 AM
signs of the times. the general public (hereafter referred to as "sheeple") have come to depend on government intervention in their daily lives. when they begin to surrender their rights in exchange for a promise of protection, is there really any turning back? most have welcomed the "nanny state" laws. they seek government prtection from every ill in their lives from crime to a bug in their cheerios. our wise and benevolent legislators will continue to pass what laws they deem necessary "for our own good" until enough citizens stand up and say no.

oaklander
08-06-2008, 8:56 AM
I've got an idea!

Let's start a non-profit organization whose goals are to educate the general public about gun rights, to defend people wrongly accused of breaking the law, and to help support free discourse regarding run rights and gun laws.

This organization would work closely with existing gun rights organizations to make the above happen.

;)

WokMaster1
08-06-2008, 9:47 AM
I've got an idea!

Let's start a non-profit organization whose goals are to educate the general public about gun rights, to defend people wrongly accused of breaking the law, and to help support free discourse regarding run rights and gun laws.

This organization would work closely with existing gun rights organizations to make the above happen.

;)

Oakland Guitar Case Foundation;)

battleship
08-06-2008, 10:35 AM
Not sure as to why this woman in San Mateo was prosecuted - left her purse in the food store, are you saying she was packing a pistol in that purse to protect her from her Ex-husband, with out a CCW.

nicki
08-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Story about 2 years ago.

Woman left pursue in Lucky's in Half Moon Bay, store opens purse, finds gun, calls police, police arrest woman.

Woman had restraining order, but it supposedly expired, so she is prosecuting for carrying without ccw permit.

She is fined, few days in jail, then stripped of gun rights for 18 months.

If you have a valid and current restraining order for against someone for violence, it is a affirmative defense to carry a gun without a ccw permit.

She had a psycho ex who had threatened to kill her. I tried to follow up on her case, her first lawyer screwed up the case, I tracked down her wecond lawyer and her second lawyer said the first lawyer screwed up because she had a valid restraining order and she was trying to work something out with the San Mateo DA.

This is off my memory, this happened I guess about 2 years ago. This case had me make a few calls to the Cal DOJ firearms division since I thought the penalities were excessive for misdemeanor convictions.

If you carry without a license, they charge you with loaded carry and concealed carry. In theory, you could get 2 years in jail, all the judge would have to do is make your sentence concurrent.

This is why we need to fix the ccw system. I know many gun owners carry without a license with the attitude, better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Prison should be for real criminals, not for people who are just trying to protect themselves.

Nicki

csmintel
08-06-2008, 2:09 PM
I strongly believe in taking ACTION, but having done some majorily dumb things in my life because I thought that we actually lived under the constitution and the rule of law was certainly a pricey education.

But I lived, I'm here and I went on to do other things like jump out of planes, go to a Anthony Robbins UPW event and actually walk across hot coals after signing a waiver of course(estimated coal temp 1200 to 1400f).

Ever see the movie the Matrix. The veterans on this forum have swallowed the red pill, but their are many newcomers who visit who are green.

The amount of posts we got of people doing unloaded open carry when many of these people don't realize how much they really are sticking there necks out.

We need court cases, but on our terms, we need our lawyers to be on OFFENSE, not defense.

It is refreshing to see people who will jump in the fire, it appears that gun owners are finally coming back to life in this state.

I just don't want to see people getting burnt and that was the main emphasis of the post is to beg people not to unnecessarily throw themselves onto the tracks so to speak.

The socialist democracy we have won't last and it will collapse very soon because our country cannot support the culture of dependency.

Donald Trump and Robert Kiyosaki cowrote a book last year, Why we want you to be Rich. If we continue the course, the middle class will get wiped out.

I bring this up because people fear economic collapse.
Our rights are most in danger during times of crisis.

Collapse of the German Marc and the economic chaos that followed is why the Germans elected Hitler. People will give up freedom for security.

Democracies destroy rights, Republics protect them. The trouble is most people don't know the difference.

Most people don't know history and as such, will repeat it.

I am not a doom and gloom, I honestly belief that we can fix many of our big problems such as medicare, social security, energy dependence and economic competitiveness because the solutions do exist.

Many solutions can be started by individuals first, we don't need the government nor do we really want the government to lead the way.

I'm not going to go into details here since I am in the process of having my own website built.

I have many parts of my life and as a result, it is a time consuming process putting content together.

Let's keep in mind that we are all interdependent on each other. .

This forum has about 15,000 registered members. We need to grow in size so that we can have a effective presence in every county of this state.

I believe the best court cases are the ones we never have to file because we blocked the law from passing in the first place.

:hurray: I agree.

SOneThreeCoupe
08-06-2008, 9:43 PM
I like this.

You're angry. Other people are angry. Angry people are motivated people.

How is it that we've allowed it to get so far that even if we're BELIEVED to have broken laws that don't exist, we're charged with a crime and exonerated only after throwing thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer and court fees down the drain?

How is it that our Constitutional rights mean NOTHING until we PROVE they mean something?

This is disgusting. How did we allow it to get this bad? We need to revolt against this unjust "justice" system.

Piper
08-07-2008, 2:59 PM
12025.5 PC should protect people who violate 12025 because someone is trying to kill them. Unfortunately Nicki is right, the criminal justice system in most of California ignores laws that interfere with their disarmament agenda and focuses on laws and penalties that would futher disarm law abiding citizens that choose to rely on themselves for self defense instead of an inefficient government. I can't emphasize how important it is for us to remember and pass on to those within our spheres of influence that police have no obligation to protect us and our families. In fact their only responsibility is to the state. Remember that Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police is the law of the land.

IllTemperedCur
08-07-2008, 4:19 PM
Depends on your definition of civil disobedience, nicki. As I understand it, the CCW, open carry and OLL movements are assertions of our 2A rights, but they are LEGAL. Folks that are involved in these activities generally aren't looking to get arrested or charged with a crime. The legal conflicts over these issues are largely initiated by a government entity that doesn't follow the procedures set forth in the law. The point is to have both the citizen and the government follow the law to the letter, even if one isn't in agreement with it.

But civil disobedience in the classic Thoreau/MLK sense is where one deliberately violates an unjust law. Arrest and conviction under the unjust law is expected, in order to highlight the injustice and overload the system. Basically, the protesters are daring the government to enforce the law on a large scale, especially when the government would rather rely on the quiet threat of enforcement. It's the "cockroaches in a darkened room" strategy. Flip the light switch, and watch 'em run.

But as a result of the present structure of US gun laws, the legal risks to the protesters are much greater than in any other civil rights issue. And the risk of damage to the cause by a single misstep is greater as well, because of the media hostility that would inevitably ensue. Basically, each of us is just one unjust protest-related felony conviction away from being taken out of the 2A protest pool.

Not really disagreeing with you, just making a distinction between following the unjust law, while working to repeal it, as opposed to willfully violating the law in order to publicize the law's unjust nature.

nicki
08-08-2008, 4:18 AM
If courts followed the law, the open carry and the OLL's wouldn't be an issue, but we have too many judges who are legislating from the bench.

Right now we have people in the legal system right now that at this point we should just let the cases pan out first.

The truth is the only rights you have are the rights you can enforce and right now our teeth are growing in:43:

nicki
08-08-2008, 4:32 AM
Some laws are stupid of course.

The national 55mph speed limit was a law I never obeyed. From 1976 till 1995 I got 2 speeding tickets. Most of the time I drove about 70 to 75mph, sometimes I would even hit 80mph:eek:

Of course now that we have 65mph and 70mph I have slowed down.

Today honestly I cruise around 75 to 80mph, on roads where 70 is posted, I usually run 80 to 90mph.

Back in the day, I would run 15 to 20mph over posted limits, today I run 10 to 15mph over the limits, I have slowed down.

I learned math from our elected officials from how they run budgets.:D

Seriously though, speeding tickets are annoying, but not something you are going to go to jail over as long as you post bail and don't ignore them.

Gun violations, especially for normal working folks like most of us on the board are treated harshly.

Most of us are just barely making it, while 30 days in jail is a non issue for career crooks, it is enough for most of us to loose our jobs and jeopardize everything else in our lives.

There are a few of us that can take the hit, but most of us can't and I certainly don't want to see someone who can't take such a hit, take one.

Until we can restore the real power of the 7th amendment by getting back Jury Nullification, I would not reccomend civil disobedience to anyone on our side.

Nicki

glockman19
08-08-2008, 7:31 AM
I'm all for Civil Disobedience. I believe that we ALL should withhold taxes. EVERYONE should put their tax burden into an Escrow Account titled "Jo Blow's California Tax" Hit them where it hurts. in the pocketbook.

Legislators have spent us all into debt in addition to social engineering by behavioral legislation. And today LA City Council Member and former police chief sill propose NO SMOKING EVERYWHERE people may congregate.

Until we vote them out we'll be hostage to their whims.

I also think we should pass a bill that makes legislators accountable for their actions and laws.

Taxes Taxes taxes that's what it's all about.

California Facts:

Over the last few years income to the state has increased by 40%, however over that time we also increased spending by 44%.

SOneThreeCoupe
08-08-2008, 2:53 PM
We can't vote them out, that's the problem. Too many people are too misinformed and lackadaisical about who they vote into office to really take a second look at their elected officials.

We've grown so large as a nation that our numbers breed ignorance. Back in the 1800s, one vote made a difference, nowadays one vote is a 300th of a percent. Also, every decision influenced the population back then, now people feel isolated from a bad decision. People feel that a vote aligned with celebrities is a correct choice, not because they are the intelligentsia but instead because they are famous.

Our votes matter, but we have no choice but to get the public on our side or we will fail in any non-court political battle.

We are hostages to their whims, glockman. We are hostages to our own success, to our growth and success as a nation.

We will not get this country back in our lifetimes. It may never come back. As countries mature, they lose sight of their origins. Unfortunately, we have no uncharted territory to make our own.

CA_Libertarian
08-09-2008, 10:43 AM
I'm a bit more optimistic. Look at the revolution that founded this country. (I'll admit up front that history is my weakest point.) They changed things so drastically so quickly. All it takes is a lot of people unhappy with the way things are going. Right now, that's almost everybody.

Don't let the media fool you. Most people don't like the police state. Most people aren't happy with our financial situation. Most people are not happy with either party. To rally support all we have to do is organize and propose some solutions, then get some leaders in the movement to sell the ideas to the people.

I am optimistic that we can have a non-violent revolution in my lifetime. My generation (I'm 27) is growing out of it's apathy. We're waking up.