PDA

View Full Version : Makers mark removal.


moab
08-04-2008, 6:01 PM
I posted this little joke about CAI's maker mark being the "shameful mark of humiliation" for any firearm:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1413960#post1413960

But an interesting issue got brought up that I'd like the legal eagles over here to weigh in on. The CAI MOS (Mark of Shame) on my M1 is electro penciled. Some say it can be removed, some say it can't. Some say electro penciled marks are not legal in the first place so it doesn't matter what you do with it. The original Inland Manufacturing Division, General Motors maker mark is clearly placed on top of the receiver. And all of the parts appear to have period correct subcontractor marks.

1) Can you remove a makers mark in general? I would think not.
2) Can you remove a second makers mark like in the case of my rifle?
3) Is electro pencil not a legal form of marking? And if not, can it be legally removed.

I don't care either way. I'm keeping this rifle forever. So value/MOS has no meaning to me. And luckily the mark on mine is hidden under the stock. You don't have to see the ugly scratch writing.

But it is to bad that a possibly otherwise period correct rifle gets the cosmoline wiped off, electro penciled by an 8 yr old, and then the subsequent value of the gun drops by a significant amount.

4) What if like in the case of a Mauser where the bolt or really visible parts are electro penciled and it looks uglier than hell. Can you replace the electro pencil with nicely stamped marks?

FEDUPWBS
08-04-2008, 6:05 PM
To answer #4: I left my ATF code book at home but the Electro pencil will not scribe to the proper depth which is .005 IIRC.

bwiese
08-04-2008, 6:11 PM
(1) Do check CAI rebarreled Garands for headspace if you haven't already (!!!)

(2) Ordinarily such an extraneous mark is legally irrelevant since "Inland" or "Remington" are the make, and the serial # is on there too.

(3) However, there is a chance that CAI is the (re)importer of these Garands in which case the mark may have some legal significance - the ATF may have changed their marking depth regulations after this occurred. (Many if not all Garands have been reimported; it likely has to do if it was a more recent reimportation when rules were tighter.) If indeed this were a CAI-reimported Garand, I'd be wary of taking that CAI marking off. [For a more modern example, on my Imbel FAL clone receivers I would not take the PacWestArms importation mark off.] C&R status may or may not have something to do with this too, not sure.

Equalizer2
08-04-2008, 6:25 PM
Found It!

PENAL CODE
SECTION 12090-12094



12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment in the state prison.



12091. Possession of any pistol or revolver upon which the name of
the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark of
identification has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated,
shall be presumptive evidence that the possessor has changed,
altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
__________________

thefifthspeed
08-04-2008, 6:35 PM
Where is it being removed to?

http://www.alexanderphotoimaging.com/Product_Images/MakersMark.jpg

aplinker
08-04-2008, 6:37 PM
Many marks are allowed to be removed (think scrollwork).

I would definitely contact the ATF (then DOJ) about removing an import mark.

Found It!

PENAL CODE
SECTION 12090-12094



12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment in the state prison.



12091. Possession of any pistol or revolver upon which the name of
the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark of
identification has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated,
shall be presumptive evidence that the possessor has changed,
altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
__________________

icormba
08-04-2008, 6:50 PM
(1) Do check CAI rebarreled Garands for headspace if you haven't already (!!!)



Hey Bill, he has a M1 carbine not a Garand. ;)

I am also probably reading your quote wrong when you mention that "Many if not all Garands have been re-imported"... this is not 100% accurate. Many M1 Garands (and Carbines) have been returns from the US Military from overseas to the CMP and have NO import marks at all. They are NOT considered re-imports.

Moab's is.

m24armorer
08-04-2008, 7:16 PM
It's OK per ATFE to remove the import markings.

I have the letter.

FEDUPWBS
08-04-2008, 7:18 PM
It's OK per ATFE to remove the import markings.

I have the letter.



;)


Validation!

taloft
08-04-2008, 7:33 PM
It's OK per ATFE to remove the import markings.

I have the letter.I'd love a copy of that. When I contacted them about the same issue, they informed me that any serial number that didn't use standard letters and numbers (i.e. Cyrillic characters on a russian rifle serial number) wasn't considered a valid serial number. As a result, they used the import serial number as the only valid number. As such, removing the import serial number would be illegal. However, it must be noted that I was addressing my concerns regarding a Mosin Nagant going into my bound book.

M1 rifles re-imported via CAI would have standard characters in the original serial number. As such they are probably still valid by BATFE standards. I find the whole concept very intriguing. I would be very grateful if you could either post for public consumption or PM me a copy of that letter. The wording is of great interest to me.

bohoki
08-04-2008, 7:38 PM
say the importer mark were on the barrel and you replace the barrel is that obliterating a mark?

1911su16b870
08-04-2008, 9:00 PM
Where is it being removed to?

http://www.alexanderphotoimaging.com/Product_Images/MakersMark.jpg

As long as you crack the red wax around the cork, the Makers Mark can be removed quite easily...hic...:D

moab
08-04-2008, 11:55 PM
The CAI mark of shame is on the receiver. But as a matter of fact they were on the barrel too at one point.

That is good news for those with firearms that would otherwise be diminished by the MARK OF SHAME! CA puts on every one of it's imports. You see that mark and immediately assume its a gun that was put together number one, and number two put together badly. I really don't think that is the case with this gun. But I'd have to have an M1 Carbine expert look at it. I'm sure there were thousands of Carbines (like they have now at the CMP - whatever it's called) that are complete and original guns. Why should they suffer that association if they are actually original guns. You'd think CA would put a mark on guns that needed replacement parts and ones that were complete.

Now the question is how to best remove it and cover up the grinding?

GuyW
08-05-2008, 12:35 AM
The CAI mark of shame is on the receiver. That is good news for those with firearms that would otherwise be diminished by the MARK OF SHAME! CA puts on every one of it's imports.

The import marking is a federal requirement.

I think grinding off the marking would be more damaging than the original marking. My vote is for "leave it alone".

Moonclip
08-05-2008, 1:46 AM
I hate CAI "billboards" I try to buy older ones or PW arms or other importers guns that have discreet marks.

There has been heated debate before on gunboards.com before about the legality of removing import marks.

moab
08-05-2008, 1:08 PM
I hate CAI "billboards" I try to buy older ones or PW arms or other importers guns that have discreet marks.

There has been heated debate before on gunboards.com before about the legality of removing import marks.

And what was the outcome? This time it's looking like it's ok to remove import marks. As long as the manufacturers mark is left in tact. :confused:

FEDUPWBS
08-05-2008, 1:15 PM
If you dont know what you are doing to remove it your better off NOT touching it.

1911su16b870
08-05-2008, 1:22 PM
If you dont know what you are doing to remove it your better off NOT touching it.

A big +1

-hanko
08-05-2008, 2:28 PM
You see that mark and immediately assume its a gun that was put together number one, and number two put together badly.

Then number one, you'd have zero idea of what you're looking at. Number two, you'd also probably have no idea if the gun were put together 'badly' or not;).

Century is the largest importer of surplus military (C&R) weapons in the US. They're required as the importer to re-mark the rifle with their name, city, and state. I agree that a non-import-marked rifle is preferable to a marked gun, but it's a lot harder (not impossible) to find. It's also gonna' be more expensive. But century doesn't assemble their C&R guns, they just resell them.

Different deal with a Century-made gun. Those that work work well, but there are a ton that never should have left the 'angry beavers' at CAI.

hth

-hanko

moab
08-05-2008, 10:29 PM
If you dont know what you are doing to remove it your better off NOT touching it.

I have no intention of removing anything. If you read back through the referenced thread you'll see this was more about discussion that anyone wanting to remove anything.

Knowing whether removing an import mark is legal or not - is an important discussion. And an interesting one. There obviously is not a consensus on whether it is or is not legal. Which is a little disappointing.

"How" you would remove an import mark (if it were legal) is another discussion altogether.

I see the validity of needing to know if a gun has been touched by CAI. My only comment is that it's to bad a gun (not talking about mine) with a rich history and possibly period correct parts and markings, can have much of that value taken away with the swipe of an electro pencil.

Or even like in the case of my rifle. I tend to believe there were West German marks on the receiver (as suggested in the referenced thread and a website). But that history was ground away by CAI. And covered in black paint. You'd think it would be illegal to take that away as well. It would certainly be an even more interesting weapon had those marks remained.

But it would be nice if they'd just stop using electro pencils wouldn't it?! lol! :) It looks so ugly. Cheapens the gun so much IMHO. Let's take up a collection and get them a set of alpha numeric dies. :43:

moab
08-07-2008, 4:23 PM
Still wish there was a consensus on whether or not you can remove an import mark. Assuming there is a makers mark separately placed on the firearm that you aren't removing.