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163marco
08-04-2008, 2:21 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm gaining a lot of interest in purchasing a shotgun in the near future. Primary use will be standard target practice, 3-gun events, clay pigeons and the like. I actually don't hunt animals, so I wont be using it in that scenario if it's a factor on your suggested models.

With 3-gun events in mind, I think I'd like to get something that holds magazines as opposed to using the standard tube. From what I read, semi-auto shotguns are CA-illegal when used with a pistol grip and/or telescoping/folding stock. I'd definitely like to have a pistol grip and an adjustable stock/cheek rest. The pump action doesn't bother me, even though having a semi-auto would be preferable.

Cost isn't too huge of a factor, so I'd rather spend a little extra dough on something that's considered better quality. I'd prefer something more tactical than traditional. I wouldn't really use it as a home defense weapon since I have a .45 cal.

In a nutshell...

- Used for targets, 3-gun, clay, etc. No hunting.
- Holds 10-round magazines.
- Tactical and modifiable (stock, pistol grip, rails, etc.)
- Wont be used for home defense.
- Cost isn't too big of a factor. American, European or Russian-made makes are fine if quality/reliability is really good.

Something along the lines like this is nice...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=94944

But would prefer something "out-of-the-box" that already has box magazine functionality instead of modifying/converting a shotgun to do it. Does anything like that exist?

Thanks for anyone's help. I do appreciate it.

gose
08-04-2008, 2:40 PM
Semi-auto and detachable magazine -> AW, so if you want a detachable mag, pump is the only way you can get one.
You could get a Saiga-12 with a mag lock, but a mag change with a mag lock is going to be sloooow, so you're better of getting a shotgun with a regular tube. Also, a mag fed shotgun will land you in open, so from a competition stand point it makes no sense to go with anything but a regular tube, at least in California.

C_1
08-04-2008, 3:31 PM
Semi-auto shotguns with a detachable mag is considered an assault weapon and is illegal. However, a pump-action shotgun, with a detachable mag is exempt.

The Siaga 12 is illegal in CA as normally configured. You would have to find one, have someone install a bullet button out of state, and ship it to a FFL who is willing to go through the process. A little complicated and time consuming.

The Valtro USA PM5(?) is made here in CA and is a legal pump shotgun with a detachable box mag. Dont know too much about it. Google it real quick.

Another option, which requires a little more work, is the Knoxx SideWinder kit. Its discontinued so finding it is hard and its probably going to be expensive. They are suppose to come out with another kit or something. Not too sure.

But like gose said, having a box mag fed shotgun is going to put you in open, so it might not be worth it.

If youre set on a box mag fed shotgun, those are your 3 options (I think).

163marco
08-04-2008, 4:58 PM
Thanks for the quick replies. Yeah, I knew magazine-fed semi-auto shotguns were CA-illegal when paired with pistol grip and/or telescoping/collapsible stocks. However I didn't know a pump-fed box magazine threw you into open class, which I don't really want to do. Kind of shame because I *really* like the idea of a box magazine for a shotgun since I'm a semi-auto rifle person by nature.

So in production class for 3-gun, are people just manually feeding each shell into the tube one by one when they need to reload? I know some guys use the funnel system to ram all their shells into the tube, but isn't that used in open as well?

Thanks for the gun recommends... I still may want one just for the fun of it. That Valtro sounds like it could be nice.

Thanks again.

kdm
08-04-2008, 5:11 PM
JUst a quick note regarding the Sidewinder...I had one for my 590. Used a 6 round stick and a 10 round drum with it. Function was perfect, ergonomics weren't. The conversion kit added a good pound, and the weight of the drum added at least another. With my shortish arms, working the pump was awkward.

I could see no advantage of the Sidewinder over a +2 tube.

In short, if you're built like Dolph Lungren, the Sidewinder is for you.

163marco
08-04-2008, 5:34 PM
Good to know, KDM. That will actually be an important consideration (ergonomics and weight). Thanks.

E. Fudd
08-04-2008, 6:41 PM
Thanks for the quick replies. Yeah, I knew magazine-fed semi-auto shotguns were CA-illegal when paired with pistol grip and/or telescoping/collapsible stocks.

No, semi-auto shotgun w/ detachable magazine = CA AW period, regardless of pistol grip, telescoping/folding stock, or standard stock.

163marco
08-04-2008, 9:23 PM
Yup, my bad. I got these two mixed together...

- You may not have both a pistol grip and a telescoping/folding/collapsible stock on a semi-automatic shotgun. Break this rule, and you have an assault shotgun.

- You may not have any semi-automatic shotgun with a detachable magazine. Break this rule, and you have an assault shotgun.

Damn state laws. :mad:

gose
08-05-2008, 9:30 AM
Thanks for the quick replies. Yeah, I knew magazine-fed semi-auto shotguns were CA-illegal when paired with pistol grip and/or telescoping/collapsible stocks. However I didn't know a pump-fed box magazine threw you into open class, which I don't really want to do. Kind of shame because I *really* like the idea of a box magazine for a shotgun since I'm a semi-auto rifle person by nature.
So in production class for 3-gun, are people just manually feeding each shell into the tube one by one when they need to reload? I know some guys use the funnel system to ram all their shells into the tube, but isn't that used in open as well?
Thanks for the gun recommends... I still may want one just for the fun of it. That Valtro sounds like it could be nice.
Thanks again.

Speed loaders are usually just allowed in open, so practice those reloads ;)

A decent speed is ~1 loaded round / second. The top dogs do "shoot one, load eight, shoot one" in ~6 seconds.

163marco
08-05-2008, 2:22 PM
Yeah, I think I'll have to buy some snap caps and do some practicing in front of the TV or something!

So with that in mind, does anyone have a good suggestion on a 12-gauge shotgun that can be good for both production class 3-gun, clay/skeet/trap and general target practice? Again, no hunting. Would still like something that can accept a modified stock, grip, rails etc.

How's the overall quality on the Mossberg? I felt it at the gun shop yesterday and it didn't feel as beefy as something like a Benelli M4. Obviously there's a huge price difference as well.

Thanks again.

Baron
08-15-2008, 3:59 PM
LOL that's my 500 with sidewinder... I wouldn't recomend it for 3-gun matches even if it didn't put you in open class.

It adds alot of weight and the mags can be a pain to insert into the magwell. Specially the 10 round drum... but with practice you get used to how the mags need to be inserted... it's not like an AR or AK.

If you want a fun Shotgun to use in the desert or BLM then the sidewinder is fun
But I would recomend the Valtro over the Sidewinder... It was made to accept magazines out of the box, where as the Sidewinder is a kit to modify the 500/590. Also the Valtro has the mag well in the reciever, so it looks a bit more balanced then the 500 with Sidewinder. The 500 with Sidewinder was really front heavy till I added the Mesa Tactical High tube Stock Adaptor with the Endine Shot stock.... Now it's equally heavy... 10lbs

Both the Sidewinder and the Valtro are hard to find, as well as magazines for each... And the Magazines are expensive for each too. To put it into perspective I have three 6 round box magazines and one 10 round drum for my sidewinder. For what I paid I could have got 2 to 3 shotguns, I might have even been able to get 4 If I found a good deal or two.

I like my ZB500. It's fun to shoot and gets lots of looks from people at the range, most just scratch their heads trying to figure out what the heck it is. I wouldn't depend on it though. That's why I have a regular stock 500 unmodified, plus my other firearms. If it came down to a clubbing match I just might grab my ZB500 LOL:D

So I'll leave you with this advice:
Make sure you have a second unmodified shotgun before you get a sidewinder, heck use it as an excuse to buy another Shotgun. Because you can never have too many

StraightShooter
08-15-2008, 4:28 PM
The best way to go is get a semiauto with a fixed stock and a pistol grip. Learn to hold the shotgun hard against your shoulder with the pistol grip allowing yout other hand to move to your belt to stuff shells in the tube simultaneously while firing (weak hand reloading). It doesnt get much faster than that.

double_action
08-15-2008, 4:47 PM
There's a Valtro on gunbroker right now, one mag and the guy says he won't ship to CA :(