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SteveBooth
08-03-2008, 3:37 PM
Okay, here's the scenario. I recently read a USGS evaluation of the results of a 7.8 quake near Los Angeles. The reference is here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080522104754.htm

Without going into the sordid details, things will be grim, to say the least.

One of the most revealing aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Catrina was the lawlessness, looting, and violence that followed the utter collapse of Louisiana's regional and local law enforcement. There were numerous reports that the only people that were able to fend off being robbed and worse were those that were armed.

So, here is my question. Is there any legal bases for suspension of the Assault Rifle ban during times of emergency? If LA goes up in flames, and my home is threatened by looters, what will happen if I defend it and myself with a technically illegal AR-15?

Theseus
08-03-2008, 3:49 PM
I think it is nonsense to worry about it. If the event you described happens, I am sure that there will be next to no one that will ever be able to tell exactly what happened, and especially can't charge you with anything. . . But who knows?

pullnshoot25
08-03-2008, 4:02 PM
Hey, I'm not telling anyone.

Makes me nervous since my dad works in Pasadena. I think it is time I had a chat with him and make sure he has the right stuff with him in his car...

Guntech
08-03-2008, 4:08 PM
Okay, here's the scenario. I recently read a USGS evaluation of the results of a 7.8 quake near Los Angeles. The reference is here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080522104754.htm

Without going into the sordid details, things will be grim, to say the least.

One of the most revealing aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Catrina was the lawlessness, looting, and violence that followed the utter collapse of Louisiana's regional and local law enforcement. There were numerous reports that the only people that were able to fend off being robbed and worse were those that were armed.

So, here is my question. Is there any legal bases for suspension of the Assault Rifle ban during times of emergency? If LA goes up in flames, and my home is threatened by looters, what will happen if I defend it and myself with a technically illegal AR-15?

First off you shouldn't be asking about what ifs that may or may not be "legal" honestly who's going to know what you do in that situation because if they get close enough to see your AR either you'd be expired or they'd be am I right? I mean in that kind of a situation no one should be on your property so....do what you gotta do.

I am not a lawyer, and I am not giving you legal advice, nor am I advocating breaking the law, or taking the law into your own hands.

hawk81
08-03-2008, 4:26 PM
You do what you need to do to stay safe and alive. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

ojisan
08-03-2008, 4:33 PM
I think it is nonsense to worry about it. If the event you described happens, I am sure that there will be next to no one that will ever be able to tell exactly what happened, and especially can't charge you with anything. . . But who knows?
I know some folks who defended their businesses during the last L.A. riots with ARs etc. No problems with the rioters or LE. ; )

HowardW56
08-03-2008, 4:40 PM
I know some folks who defended their businesses during the last L.A. riots with ARs etc. No problems with the rioters or LE. ; )

They were rioters, not suicidal...

If you are hell bent on doing damage and encounter a building, or block of buildings with a few or a group of obviously well armed individuals there, you are going across the street...

They wanted to steal and damage buildings, not die...

Saigon1965
08-03-2008, 4:42 PM
I know some folks who defended their businesses during the last L.A. riots with ARs etc. No problems with the rioters or LE. ; )


Yay to them -

Guntech
08-03-2008, 4:44 PM
I know some folks who defended their businesses during the last L.A. riots with ARs etc. No problems with the rioters or LE. ; )

Too bad they didn't get all of the rioters ;)

Better have more than one gun too just in case SHTF and you have a failure

BillCA
08-03-2008, 7:43 PM
Steve's question is legitimate. Someone may have an AR (or other model rifle) purchased before registration requirements which was never registered or moved out of state.

Is there any legal basis for suspension of the Assault Rifle ban during times of emergency?

No. Not unless you can find it in a California Code somewhere.

The report Steve refers to describes a 7.8 quake in LA, with 1800 dead and over 50,000 injured. Depending on the time of day and time of year, those numbers may be half of what to expect.

Things will be busy for EMS workers, including police. They may do nothing about your AW then, but a later visit could prove expensive.

If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.

CCWFacts
08-03-2008, 7:52 PM
Things will be busy for EMS workers, including police. They may do nothing about your AW then, but a later visit could prove expensive.

If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.

If there's a big quake like that, I assume that the authorities will confiscate any gun they see, and will put that at a higher priority than any other activity. In other words, if they have a choice between forcibly disarming a gun owner, or moving on and digging someone out of a collapsed house, the guy who is buried is going to have to wait.

I realize that Arnie signed a "Katrina bill" to try to make that impossible, and also the 2A will soon be incorporated, protecting our rights here, but my hunch is that all that will go out the window if there's a 7.8 quake.

Which is why I think having a video camera as part of your earthquake kit is so vitally important. I don't mind giving up one of my guns, under duress, if I can video tape the incident and then use it to win millions of dollars when the dust settles.

Guntech
08-03-2008, 8:23 PM
Steve's question is legitimate. Someone may have an AR (or other model rifle) purchased before registration requirements which was never registered or moved out of state.



No. Not unless you can find it in a California Code somewhere.

The report Steve refers to describes a 7.8 quake in LA, with 1800 dead and over 50,000 injured. Depending on the time of day and time of year, those numbers may be half of what to expect.

Things will be busy for EMS workers, including police. They may do nothing about your AW then, but a later visit could prove expensive.

If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.

He means remove Mag Lock and get ready to rock.

gn3hz3ku1*
08-03-2008, 8:46 PM
i thought it was okay to shot people for a specific during a riot and not just for self defense or something? i recall someone posted some ca code.

Solidmch
08-03-2008, 9:04 PM
Ill never telll...:43:

U2BassAce
08-03-2008, 9:11 PM
If there's a big quake like that, I assume that the authorities will confiscate any gun they see, and will put that at a higher priority than any other activity. In other words, if they have a choice between forcibly disarming a gun owner, or moving on and digging someone out of a collapsed house, the guy who is buried is going to have to wait.

I realize that Arnie signed a "Katrina bill" to try to make that impossible, and also the 2A will soon be incorporated, protecting our rights here, but my hunch is that all that will go out the window if there's a 7.8 quake.

Which is why I think having a video camera as part of your earthquake kit is so vitally important. I don't mind giving up one of my guns, under duress, if I can video tape the incident and then use it to win millions of dollars when the dust settles.

Assuming the dust settles to the point you can sue in court. The dust will also settle to the point that people that broke the law will be in court too. Even if it seems like the end of the world as we know it. It might not be and you will be scr*wed! So don't go Rambo.

If you want to bug in your house or business and have your AR "unneutered" next to you is one thing. I would think twice before I strap it on and head down main street with it.

U2BassAce
08-03-2008, 9:12 PM
Steve's question is legitimate. Someone may have an AR (or other model rifle) purchased before registration requirements which was never registered or moved out of state.



No. Not unless you can find it in a California Code somewhere.

The report Steve refers to describes a 7.8 quake in LA, with 1800 dead and over 50,000 injured. Depending on the time of day and time of year, those numbers may be half of what to expect.

Things will be busy for EMS workers, including police. They may do nothing about your AW then, but a later visit could prove expensive.

If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.


They are talking 7.8 to 8 plus. Those casualty numbers are way low IMHO.

savageevo
08-03-2008, 9:25 PM
Damn, this got me thinkin, I travel an average of 1000 plus miles a week so I am away from home all the time. So if the big one happens and i am 120 miles a way. I am going to rough it home. Anything can happen along the way. This means I have to carry a back pack with all the essentials. I guess haveing a trunk gun would be handy by now. I myself do not have a trunk gun yet because of the uncertainties with leo's but maybe it could be viable to have one because of also the uncertainties of a big one happening

ZapThyCat
08-03-2008, 9:42 PM
There's absolutely no legal basis for temporarily "suspending" the ban on assault rifles.

However, how would you get an illegal AR15 when SHTF, when you can't get one now? Or are you talking about putting all the fun pieces on when things get hairy?

And of course you do have to think about the fact that LEO's will be busy enough. A homeowner defending his house isn't going to attract their ire...

And to be quite honest, I don't think there's too much you can do to the AR to make it *THAT* much more effective in defending yourself, anyway. And if they do come for it, claiming "it's illegal", then you can be sure to hold them off until you can take the "bad" mods off :)

retired
08-03-2008, 9:47 PM
CCWFacts, that video camera will be confiscated also, so I wouldn't get your hopes up that you will get a record of them taking your gun. Do you really believe they will let you keep it if they are already confiscating your weapons.:eek:

JeffM
08-03-2008, 9:53 PM
Post deleted

Don't have the PC in my back pocket at the moment, but I believe that "quelling a riot" is listed as a legal use of lethal force.

IIRC BWO posted it in another "riot" thread a while ago.

ETA: Pretty good Katrina lessons learned page. Just started reading, but seems good so far:
http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/index.html

CCWFacts
08-03-2008, 10:13 PM
There is something in the PC about use of force to suppress a riot.

Anyone who does that is a fool and is likely to be in big trouble from it. Society has changed since that law was created.

JeffM
08-03-2008, 10:16 PM
There is something in the PC about use of force to suppress a riot.

Anyone who does that is a fool and is likely to be in big trouble from it. Society has changed since that law was created.

Society has changed since a great many laws were created. They haven't changed enough to repeal them though, so I guess they're still laws huh?

Theseus
08-03-2008, 10:36 PM
This is what I figure. . If SHTF so bad that LAPD won't bash some heads I think I will circle the wagons and protect whats mine. Forget the rest. I don't think I have enough bullets to stop a riot. :red_indian:

elSquid
08-03-2008, 10:38 PM
So, here is my question. Is there any legal bases for suspension of the Assault Rifle ban during times of emergency? If LA goes up in flames, and my home is threatened by looters, what will happen if I defend it and myself with a technically illegal AR-15?

Don't make an AW. If you want an technically legal AR15, get an MMG or U-15 and learn how to use it.

Otherwise, buy a Mini14/Saiga/M1A/etc...

As for me, I've been watching too many westerns lately, so when the quake comes I'll be reachin' fer mah levergun.

-- Michael

CCWFacts
08-03-2008, 10:40 PM
Society has changed since a great many laws were created. They haven't changed enough to repeal them though, so I guess they're still laws huh?

Yeah, but most laws come down to how a "reasonable" person would act in that circumstance. In today's society, would a "reasonable person" (as imagined by a jury) think that it's ok to shoot to suppress a riot? That would be a hard one to win. If it really was self-defense, then you would make a self-defense argument, not a suppression-of-a-riot argument.

pullnshoot25
08-03-2008, 11:54 PM
Don't make an AW. If you want an technically legal AR15, get an MMG or U-15 and learn how to use it.

Otherwise, buy a Mini14/Saiga/M1A/etc...

As for me, I've been watching too many westerns lately, so when the quake comes I'll be reachin' fer mah levergun.

-- Michael

Levergun for me too!

IGOTDIRT4U
08-04-2008, 8:47 AM
This is what I figure. . If SHTF so bad that LAPD won't bash some heads I think I will circle the wagons and protect whats mine. Forget the rest. I don't think I have enough bullets to stop a riot. :red_indian:


Get more ammo...for several reasons.

ZapThyCat
08-04-2008, 9:21 AM
As for me, I've been watching too many westerns lately, so when the quake comes I'll be reachin' fer mah levergun.
-- Michael

Bah!

Kick it REAL old style and get your black powder rifle out. :cool2:

elSquid
08-04-2008, 9:26 AM
Bah!

Kick it REAL old style and get your black powder rifle out. :cool2:

Nah. ROF is not good enough for CQB; I'd rather have an english longbow instead.

-- Michael

Neil McCauley
08-04-2008, 9:30 AM
I think its time to start another 1919 group buy. I'm envisioning a Corona beer type ad, except I'll be on my roof sipping on non organic watermelon juice under a huge umbrella.

KDOFisch
08-04-2008, 9:32 AM
Bah!

Kick it REAL old style and get your black powder rifle out. :cool2:

Blunderbuss for me!
http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/morrimg/web_exhibit/Blunderbuss_MORR2155.jpg

:43:

Clodbuster
08-04-2008, 11:44 AM
The last LA riots was back before Colt Sporters became assault rifles...so there is no comparison to what is now or the future.


Clod

I know some folks who defended their businesses during the last L.A. riots with ARs etc. No problems with the rioters or LE. ; )

Clodbuster
08-04-2008, 11:54 AM
Mfg and using an assault weapon against someone carries very stiff penalties...and I doubt if any panel of 12 will see any justification for it when 99.99% of the population can easily defend themselves with a non-AW firearm...


Clod

You do what you need to do to stay safe and alive. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

Ironchef
08-04-2008, 12:11 PM
Perhaps the OP is thinking of using a beta mag in his migration from legally configured to illegally configured? Nothing would be better to control riotous invaders at your door.

I never tire watching this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmliCMvcaq0

1911su16b870
08-04-2008, 12:18 PM
During the last LA riots, south central buisnesses were defended with any firearm that was available.

ojisan
08-04-2008, 12:18 PM
If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.
:iagree:
However, should gang bangers start cruising your neighborhood looking for likely victims, having an AW or something similar is good. I have heard FA fire out in the desert from Bangers too many times to be comfortable with just my lever action rifle and pump shotgun.

About 108 bridges and tunnels on my 50 mile drive home from work. Can't expect them all to stay up. Appropriate supplies in your car, since it may take you several days to get home, are a very very good idea.

InvictusManeo
08-04-2008, 12:35 PM
Blunderbuss for me!
http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/morrimg/web_exhibit/Blunderbuss_MORR2155.jpg

:43:

I gotta get me one of those. Never run out of ammo! :chris:

Powder, on the other hand....

aplinker
08-04-2008, 12:44 PM
Any excuse to pull that mag lock huh... ? ;)

Why break the law unnecessarily if you have alternatives? If I find a fully-functional AR15 is my only line of defense I think I'll have much bigger problems than whether it's legal.

Meplat
08-04-2008, 12:46 PM
Too bad they didn't get all of the rioters ;)

Better have more than one gun too just in case SHTF and you have a failure

Only one gun?!?! :eek: I've not been guilty of that sense I was 13.

Let's have a show of hands. How many members have only one gun?:rolleyes:

Decoligny
08-04-2008, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE=JeffM;1412148]Don't have the PC in my back pocket at the moment, but I believe that "quelling a riot" is listed as a legal use of lethal force. [QUOTE]

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

Meplat
08-04-2008, 12:57 PM
I don't think I have enough bullets to stop a riot. :red_indian:

Then sell your cloak and buy more.

Meplat
08-04-2008, 1:02 PM
Bah!

Kick it REAL old style and get your black powder rifle out. :cool2:

There are black powder lever guns but the smoke gives away your position.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
08-04-2008, 1:08 PM
[QUOTE=JeffM;1412148]Don't have the PC in my back pocket at the moment, but I believe that "quelling a riot" is listed as a legal use of lethal force. [QUOTE]

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

WOW! That is written poorly. "...to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury..."

So does that mean either/or? Does the felony have to be bodily injury, or just any old felony? LOL

I had a "customer" here at work try to pass a forged check for over $5000 which is a felony. I had to wait about 3 hours after closing for the police to bring him back so I could ID him. I could have just shot him dead and ID'd him on the spot. :p

Meplat
08-04-2008, 1:11 PM
Never run out of ammo! ....

You can load it with anything that won't crawle out before you can pull the trigger.

dwtt
08-05-2008, 10:04 PM
So, here is my question. Is there any legal bases for suspension of the Assault Rifle ban during times of emergency? If LA goes up in flames, and my home is threatened by looters, what will happen if I defend it and myself with a technically illegal AR-15?

Where did this idea that the AW laws can be suspended during a declared emergency come from? I think someone needs to be grounded in reality.
CA's AW laws will not be suspended in an emergency.
If you are worried about defending your home and family with a rifle, then you need to consider and decide on an alternate plan of action before a real emergency comes up. If you have an off-list rifle of the AR-15 design, just go grip less or add a monsterman grip. Take off your flash hider and put on a fixed stock, then you can use all the detachable magazines you want and there will be no need for the AW laws to be suspended to accomodate your need to shoot looters. Better yet, do this now, before the emergency.

KDOFisch
08-06-2008, 2:25 PM
Where did this idea that the AW laws can be suspended during a declared emergency come from? I think someone needs to be grounded in reality.
CA's AW laws will not be suspended in an emergency.
If you are worried about defending your home and family with a rifle, then you need to consider and decide on an alternate plan of action before a real emergency comes up. If you have an off-list rifle of the AR-15 design, just go grip less or add a monsterman grip. Take off your flash hider and put on a fixed stock, then you can use all the detachable magazines you want and there will be no need for the AW laws to be suspended to accomodate your need to shoot looters. Better yet, do this now, before the emergency.

This is ridiculous. 270 miles east of here (Nevada) this wouldn't even be a forum post. If I have to add a monsterman grip, so be it, but I would roll my eyes heavily at the television if bad stories came out about OLLs that actually favored us (yeah that'll be the day).

Thanks Tom- And in other news, Jimmy McGunneypants was shot dead in his home today finally by looters who were trying to get into his home following the massive 8.6 earthquake in the Basin. Officials say he was using a nonbanned 'series clone' of an AR-15 to keep armed looters from stealing his water, cat, and 46" Sony Bravia.

Gee Kathy, did he run out of ammo?

No Tom, sadly he was found with his rifle cracked open to reload ten measly rounds it per California state law. Officials say they're happy the victim quote- followed the law to the bitter end.

I'm not saying I would ever advocate breaking a state law. But if compliance of a draconian law ever ended the life of a gunowner, that would be tragic.

CalNRA
08-06-2008, 3:14 PM
And of course you do have to think about the fact that LEO's will be busy enough. A homeowner defending his house isn't going to attract their ire...


ahem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M

BigKevLA
08-06-2008, 6:19 PM
Steve's question is legitimate. Someone may have an AR (or other model rifle) purchased before registration requirements which was never registered or moved out of state.



No. Not unless you can find it in a California Code somewhere.

The report Steve refers to describes a 7.8 quake in LA, with 1800 dead and over 50,000 injured. Depending on the time of day and time of year, those numbers may be half of what to expect.

Things will be busy for EMS workers, including police. They may do nothing about your AW then, but a later visit could prove expensive.

If you have another rifle or shotgun, that's all I'd display publicly. I'd keep any AW out of sight until it's actually needed.


Eventually order will be restored. If you are found to have shot someone with an illegal firearm you are going to JAIL. It will not matter that they were there to harm you. Your crime will be possession of an unregistered aw and who knows what else.

tcrpe
08-06-2008, 6:27 PM
One of the most revealing aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Catrina was the lawlessness, looting, and violence that followed the utter collapse of Louisiana's regional and local law enforcement.

It didn't "collapse", they either deserted or joined in the looting.

And I won't even discuss demographics . . . . . not gonna happen.

tcrpe
08-06-2008, 6:30 PM
ahem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M

Yep, and I still want to know where her antique ivory-handled revolver is, right now.

I'd be willing to bet it's in California, unDROSed.

Any takers?

Rob454
08-06-2008, 6:53 PM
You do what you need to do to stay safe and alive. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

I agree

Clodbuster
08-06-2008, 10:23 PM
It's not an illegal firearm...it's an illegal assault weapon. Using an AW against someone gets you a prison sentence, not jail.

Clod

Eventually order will be restored. If you are found to have shot someone with an illegal firearm you are going to JAIL. It will not matter that they were there to harm you. Your crime will be possession of an unregistered aw and who knows what else.

postal
08-06-2008, 11:00 PM
If there's a big quake like that, I assume that the authorities will confiscate any gun they see, and will put that at a higher priority than any other activity. In other words, if they have a choice between forcibly disarming a gun owner, or moving on and digging someone out of a collapsed house, the guy who is buried is going to have to wait.

I realize that Arnie signed a "Katrina bill" to try to make that impossible, and also the 2A will soon be incorporated, protecting our rights here, but my hunch is that all that will go out the window if there's a 7.8 quake.

Which is why I think having a video camera as part of your earthquake kit is so vitally important. I don't mind giving up one of my guns, under duress, if I can video tape the incident and then use it to win millions of dollars when the dust settles.


Forgive me for not reading the entire thread- I got to this post and had to respond....

Ever since katrina I came up with a joke which I'd like to share with you regarding the illegal gun confiscation fiasco....

"nothing says DO NOT DISTURB... LIKE A COUPLE OF DEAD, DIRTY COPS OUT ON THE LAWN."

Regarding the op- a spare barrel, extractor/ejector firing pin to swap out after the fact would be a nice part of your kit...
Dont go advertising it, but use if NECESSARY......

BillCA
08-07-2008, 11:50 PM
"nothing says DO NOT DISTURB... LIKE A COUPLE OF DEAD, DIRTY COPS OUT ON THE LAWN."

Regarding the op- a spare barrel, extractor/ejector firing pin to swap out after the fact would be a nice part of your kit...
Dont go advertising it, but use if NECESSARY......

Don't advertise it like you're doing here? ;)

I'd never advocate killing cops who, in the aftermath of a disaster, are attempting to keep order and reasonably enforce the law.