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Librarian
08-03-2008, 1:48 PM
Much as readers here seem to want it to be different,

98% of the time an INTERSTATE transfer of any kind to an non-licensed California resident MUST go through a CALIFORNIA-licensed FFL.


Exceptions:

Curio and Relic is a kind of license - if you have a C&R license, your rules are different.
FOR IMMEDIATE FAMILY (grandparent/parent to/from child/grandchild) interstate inheritance of long guns is exempt - Feds say all inheritance is exempt, and CA doesn't care about papering long guns in Intrafamilial transfers.
FOR IMMEDIATE FAMILY interstate inheritance of handguns is exempt from the FFL - Feds say so and CA allows the Intrafamilial transfer form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)
For Rifles and Shotguns 50 years old and older, CA exempts the transfer from the FFL requirement, so if it's legal to buy a rifle/shotgun that old from an FFL in some other state, it will be legal to bring those home to California - not using the FFL is following CA law.


If you live in California, AND you are not licensed, then

you cannot legally buy or receive a gun out of California and bring it back here
you CAN legally buy guns from a willing out of state FFL who ships the gun to a willing California FFL, who will do a standard DROS transfer.
a non-licensed person out of California cannot legally sell to an non-licensed California resident
you CAN legally buy guns from an out of state non-licensed individual who ships the gun to a willing California FFL, who will do a standard DROS transfer.

"Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person "

California, since 1991, has required that transfers go through FFLs (in PC 12070 (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12070-12086.html)). Hold that thought. (There are a few exceptions - ignore those for now.)

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) (a)(3) says a non-licensed individual may not bring a gun acquired outside one's state of residence back to that state of residence. It's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen.

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller lives. Again, it's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen.

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (b)(3) says a licensed individual may not sell to a non-licensed buyer who lives out of the state where the FFL does business; it has an exception for long guns, but says
except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States
Remember California PC 12070 from above? California requires the transfer to go through the California-licensed FFL.

An unlicensed California resident CAN buy guns out of state, from an FFL if the out of state FFL is willing -

the gun MUST be sent to a California-licensed FFL for DROS and the usual wait;
the unlicensed California resident MAY NOT take possession of the firearm and bring it back to California; s/he MUST receive it at the California FFL.


There is no such thing as a California PPT with a California buyer and an out of state seller - 18 USC 822 (a)(5) says no. So if a friend from NV wants to sell you a gun, both of you go to a willing California FFL and do a sale - but it will not be a PC 12082 PPT.

The Feds do not have the concept of 'immediate family' that California does. Intrafamilial interstate transfers are legal, but still must use a California-licensed FFL.

Remember that handguns purchased from out of state, routed through a California FFL, must be on the California Roster, or the California FFL may not deliver it to the buyer.

Note the repeated use of the expression willing FFL; California FFls need not accept out of state transfers. That's a business decision, not a legal requirement.

Other conditions:
Dual citizenship - while rare, this is possible. Certainly one can follow the state laws regarding gun purchases where one currently resides. And CA allows moving to CA with guns legally possessed in another state. CA law, however, does not anticipate a sort of 'continuous moving in' period; moving from one state to another is usually a process with a definite end point.

SkatinJJ
08-10-2008, 9:59 AM
Hi Librarian,

I'm sorry, but I'm trying to get my head around this July 18th change-up. I deal slightly better with scenarios.

1) Out-of-state, non-FFL, Joe Citizen using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm and sends it to my willing CA FFL. - That's legal


2) Out-of-state FFL using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm, must register with CA DOJ for his number and only then can send to one of the listed FFLs, one of whom must be willing in CA?

In either case, I DROS the firearm to the satisfaction of the law.


Thanks,

JJ

Librarian
08-10-2008, 4:04 PM
Hi Librarian,

I'm sorry, but I'm trying to get my head around this July 18th change-up. I deal slightly better with scenarios.

1) Out-of-state, non-FFL, Joe Citizen using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm and sends it to my willing CA FFL. - That's legal


2) Out-of-state FFL using Gunbroker consents to sell me a firearm, must register with CA DOJ for his number and only then can send to one of the listed FFLs, one of whom must be willing in CA?

In either case, I DROS the firearm to the satisfaction of the law.


Thanks,

JJExactly right in both cases. (And in both cases, a handgun must be on the Roster.)

Critical items here (you got them, but to be explicit) are

(1) the California Firearms Licensee Check System (CFLC) (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcoverview.php) applies only to FFLs - both in state and out of state. I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?

No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.
(That took effect July 1, 2008)

(2) Out of state FFLs can choose to be in the CFLC program; it's required for CA FFLs. If they choose NOT, then they can't sell to CA residents, because the sale has to go through a CA FFL, and the CA FFL can't accept the shipment from another FFL without the shipment approval number.

(3) Any FFL may choose to accept interstate transfers, or not.

(4) Any FFL may choose to accept shipments from non-FFLs, or not.

Matt C
08-10-2008, 4:24 PM
There is no such thing as a California PPT with a California buyer and an out of state seller - 18 USC 822 (a)(5) says no. So if a friend from NV wants to sell you a gun, both of you go to a willing California FFL and do a sale - but it will not be a PC 12082 PPT.


I disagree with this (as I always have). Obviously the guy from NV and the buyer need to go through an FFL to satisfy 18 USC 822, and if it's a handgun or or <50 year old long gun to satisfy the corresponding CA state law. A PPT transfer satisfies the state requirements and the federal requirements that the gun be transferred though an FFL. HOWEVER, nowhere in PC 12082 does it say that both the seller and the buy must be CA residents:

(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the
person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other
information required by Section 12077.

Someone give me one good reason, based in the PC, that the guy from NV can't drive into CA with the non-rostered handgun, go get a state ID card and go to the PPT sale? The only reason he even needs the ID card is because the DOJ computer system needs the number, there is no codified requirement for even that!

eltee
08-10-2008, 4:25 PM
What about folks who are "snow birds" meaning they live in one state for the winter months (Hawaii, Florida, California, etc.) and in another for the summers (Nevada, Idaho, etc.). They are often retired folks who own a home and pay utility, property taxes, etc. and may even leave a car in both states.

For example: Mr. and Mrs. Joe Retiree own homes in Boise, Idaho and Palm Springs, Calif. Winters in Palm Springs, Summers in Boise. Pay property tax, homeowners insurance, etc. in both states, have 1 car in each state registered in those states. In essence, they have bonafide dual state residences.

He, as an Idaho resident, buys an off-roster pistol in Boise. Can he bring it into California when he heads to Palm Springs for the winter? Any other issues, problems, benefits for these snow birds?

Librarian
08-10-2008, 4:52 PM
What about folks who are "snow birds" meaning they live in one state for the winter months (Hawaii, Florida, California, etc.) and in another for the summers (Nevada, Idaho, etc.). They are often retired folks who own a home and pay utility, property taxes, etc. and may even leave a car in both states.

For example: Mr. and Mrs. Joe Retiree own homes in Boise, Idaho and Palm Springs, Calif. Winters in Palm Springs, Summers in Boise. Pay property tax, homeowners insurance, etc. in both states, have 1 car in each state registered in those states. In essence, they have bonafide dual state residences.

He, as an Idaho resident, buys an off-roster pistol in Boise. Can he bring it into California when he heads to Palm Springs for the winter? Any other issues, problems, benefits for these snow birds?
That depends on whether the folks in question are actually citizens of each state, and I can't figure out how to make that determination for somebody else.

If one follows the rules in one's state of residence, one should be fine. I don't think CA accounted for that possibility when they set up the personal handgun importer requirement for new California residents, but that looks like the avenue to make things legal when "moving" from one state where one is a resident to CA wher one is also a resident.

Librarian
08-10-2008, 5:10 PM
I disagree with this (as I always have). Obviously the guy from NV and the buyer need to go through an FFL to satisfy 18 USC 822, and if it's a handgun or or <50 year old long gun to satisfy the corresponding CA state law. A PPT transfer satisfies the state requirements and the federal requirements that the gun be transferred though an FFL. HOWEVER, nowhere in PC 12082 does it say that both the seller and the buy must be CA residents:


Someone give me one good reason, based in the PC, that the guy from NV can't drive into CA with the non-rostered handgun, go get a state ID card and go to the PPT sale? The only reason he even needs the ID card is because the DOJ computer system needs the number, there is no codified requirement for even that!

You'll need to fight with DOJ over this one for PC authorization but they clearly distinguish between an interstate transfer - which it would be if the gun-owned-by-NV-resident were to be sold in CA - and one between residents of CA.

If you look at the DROS manual, one of the first things the software requires is that the dealer swipe that CA ID "Read Seller California ID or DMV Card window" for the seller.

And here's a theoretical justification for it, based on Federal law: Suppose the buyer fails the background check? In that case, the FFL is required to run a background check on the seller, and if s/he passes, return the gun to the seller. EXCEPT that FedLaw 18 USC 922 (b)(3) says a licensed individual may not sell to a non-licensed buyer who lives out of the state where the FFL does business The CA FFL could not legally return it to the non-FFL seller, because s/he lives "out of the state where the FFL does business". (As noted in the first post, "Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ")


How would a NV resident get a CA id card? If s/he could (legally) get one, wouldn't that establish CA residency?

Matt C
08-10-2008, 5:16 PM
So basically what we are saying is the the DOJ is preventing it from happening, but they have no legislative authority to do so... Sounds like underground regulation to me.

I honestly don't know what the process/requirements is for getting a state ID card, I may try to get one just to see. From what I have found online the only requirements are to be a US legal resident, and filling out a "form 44". That form could have residency requirements, I can't find it in PDF.

As far as the gun going back to the seller, the receiving (transferring) FFL would have to send it back to an FFL in the seller's home state for the seller to pick up, which make sense. If the seller is not a CA resident he probably went home already anyway.

You'll need to fight with DOJ over this one for PC authorization but they clearly distinguish between an interstate transfer - which it would be if the gun-owned-by-NV-resident were to be sold in CA - and one between residents of CA.

If you look at the DROS manual, one of the first things the software requires is that the dealer swipe that CA ID "Read Seller California ID or DMV Card window" for the seller.

And here's a theoretical justification for it, based on Federal law: Suppose the buyer fails the background check? In that case, the FFL is required to run a background check on the seller, and if s/he passes, return the gun to the seller. EXCEPT that The CA FFL could not legally return it to the non-FFL seller, because s/he lives "out of the state where the FFL does business". (As noted in the forst post, "Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ")


How would a NV resident get a CA id card? If s/he could (legally) get one, wouldn't that establish CA residency?

Librarian
08-10-2008, 5:28 PM
So basically what we are saying is the the DOJ is preventing it from happening, but they have no legislative authority to do so... Sounds like underground regulation to me.

I dunno. State agencies seem often to do things because Federal law compels it, not because there is parallel state law requiring it as well. But that's just a theory on my part.

Might be worth trying to get them to explicitly justify that, but I expect they'd come up with something sufficient.

Matt C
08-10-2008, 5:34 PM
Might be worth trying to get them to explicitly justify that, but I expect they'd come up with something sufficient.

This sounds like a job for...



http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h303/doommatt1/supermancg.jpg

hoffmang
08-10-2008, 7:39 PM
Cal ID card basically requires a an SSN and a birth certificate or Passport. You do have to give the DMV your "address" and they may require that that is in state as they mail the ID to you. However, if NV resident rented a Box in CA you might be able to get a CA-ID.

At that point, I don't see any issue and I don't see a restriction. However, I think you have a problem here in that the NV resident is importing an unsafe handgun for sale. He may not qualify as a personal handgun importer.

-Gene

junker87
11-29-2008, 11:26 PM
So, if my dad from AZ gives me a long gun during my visit to AZ, I have to have the gun shipped to a CA FFL and do DROS to be able to bring the long gun back to CA?

That seems to be contrary to what some of the FFL's are telling me. They seem to indicate that if your dad gives you a long gun out of state, as long as it is CA compliant, you can simply bring it back to CA.

hoffmang
11-29-2008, 11:35 PM
So, if my dad from AZ gives me a long gun during my visit to AZ, I have to have the gun shipped to a CA FFL and do DROS to be able to bring the long gun back to CA?

That seems to be contrary to what some of the FFL's are telling me. They seem to indicate that if your dad gives you a long gun out of state, as long as it is CA compliant, you can simply bring it back to CA.

Firearms transfers between residents of different states (regardless of familiar relationships) have to transfer firearms using an FFL. Because CA requires CA residents to transfer via a CA FFL, you have to have your dad ship the firearm to a willing CA FFL.

-Gene

Librarian
11-30-2008, 12:18 AM
That seems to be contrary to what some of the FFL's are telling me. They seem to indicate that if your dad gives you a long gun out of state, as long as it is CA compliant, you can simply bring it back to CA.
As Gene already said ...

I think the misinformation is because both many DOJ employees and many FFLs in California are so accustomed to both parties being residents of CA, they forget about the Feds.

junker87
11-30-2008, 10:01 AM
Firearms transfers between residents of different states (regardless of familiar relationships) have to transfer firearms using an FFL. Because CA requires CA residents to transfer via a CA FFL, you have to have your dad ship the firearm to a willing CA FFL.

-Gene

Thanks. That helps a lot. Much appreciated.

freonr22
01-09-2009, 5:47 PM
so i have a question... after reading and searching got me here, sorry about the old thread... can i live in california, buy an under 10round semi auto off gunbroker amt backup,but the company's out of business, not on the roster, but shipped from an out of state ffl or does a c&r holder make a difference? to my ffl here? is there any way to do it? gun made in the 80's ohh maybe i answered my ownquestion... i would have to have it dissassembled down to a bare frame maybe?

thanks for the newb question

Librarian
01-09-2009, 7:57 PM
so i have a question... after reading and searching got me here, sorry about the old thread...
can i live in california, buy an under 10round semi auto off gunbroker amt backup,

but the company's out of business, not on the roster, but shipped from an out of state ffl or does a c&r holder make a difference? to my ffl here? is there any way to do it?

gun made in the 80's ohh maybe i answered my own question... i would have to have it dissassembled down to a bare frame maybe?

thanks for the newb question

Hmm. Let me reformat that into distinct questions...

OK. If AMT Backup is not on the Roster, no CA FFL can sell it to you. If someone in CA wants to sell it to you via Private Party Transfer, you could buy it that way, but an off-Roster out-of-state gun can't come here and be sold to just anyone.

It's not C&R - run-of-the-mill has to be 50 years +, and 1980 isn't even close. If it were C&R, and you had the 03 FFL, you could go out of state and buy it and bring it back, or it could be shipped to a CA FFL and you could buy it here.

Last part is, I guess, referring to NRFing; that's not entirely settled yet, but may be soon, so watch for a new thread with details.

So, short answer is no, you can't do that, but maybe the work-around will be available Real Soon Now.

freonr22
01-10-2009, 8:00 AM
thank you for your timely response

freonr22
01-10-2009, 8:02 AM
that being the case i thought this was kinda cool
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=120445541

and also http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=120356871


how neat would it be to have sn: #1???

Wizard99
01-10-2009, 9:43 AM
Remember that handguns purchased from out of state, routed through a California FFL, must be on the California Roster, or the California FFL may not deliver it to the buyer.


Unless the handgun is coming via intrafamilial from out of state.
Example my father who lives in Utah can ship me a handgun not on the roster through a California FFL.

Librarian
01-10-2009, 1:05 PM
Unless the handgun is coming via intrafamilial from out of state.
Example my father who lives in Utah can ship me a handgun not on the roster through a California FFL.
Yes. But that's the subject of an entirely different post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237).

anklebiter
02-06-2009, 7:46 PM
how about in state california sales? if i sell a pistol on calguns and the seller lives in state. would i be required to send the firearm through an FFL to FFL? or can I send directly to the buyers FFL as an individual?

i've sent firearms out of state and the FFL i send through takes their merry time to send out. it would be more efficient and timely if i send out myself. thanks in advance.

Mssr. Eleganté
02-06-2009, 9:23 PM
how about in state california sales? if i sell a pistol on calguns and the seller lives in state. would i be required to send the firearm through an FFL to FFL? or can I send directly to the buyers FFL as an individual?

Whether shipping to an out of state FFL or a California FFL, you can legally ship the firearm yourself. There is no legal reason to use an FFL on your end. But many FFL's have a policy of only receiving shipments from other FFL's. So you need to ask the receiving FFL beforehand if they will accept a shipment from an unlicensed individual.

anklebiter
02-06-2009, 10:47 PM
Whether shipping to an out of state FFL or a California FFL, you can legally ship the firearm yourself. There is no legal reason to use an FFL on your end. But many FFL's have a policy of only receiving shipments from other FFL's. So you need to ask the receiving FFL beforehand if they will accept a shipment from an unlicensed individual.

Thanks for clarifying. This really opens my eyes to what seems to be excessive charges from my FFL to ship firearms out. In the future, I'll make sure to find out if the receiving FFL will accept an individual shipment. Very much appreciate the info.

DDT
02-07-2009, 2:56 AM
Also, I'm pretty sure that if you are shipping to an FFL, even in state, roster again applies.

kotetu
02-03-2012, 11:28 AM
I just spoke to Turner's outdoorsman, and they told me that if my friend who lives in Texas gives me a rifle, I just have to file the following form (Voluntary registration):
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

According to the data you have provided though, as "Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person," even gifts are considered sales and must go through an FFL?

Does this mean that even though this is a gift, my friend would have to ship the rifle to an FFL and I would need to do another round of background checks and all that business?

There is no such thing as a California PPT with a California buyer and an out of state seller - 18 USC 822 (a)(5) says no. So if a friend from NV wants to sell you a gun, both of you go to a willing California FFL and do a sale - but it will not be a PC 12082 PPT.


Is this what you were talking about? 18 USC 922 (a)(5) (not 822?) http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html
3. Long Gun Possession

a. Possess - A person of any age may possess a LG (rifle, shotgun).

b. Purchase- A person of any age may purchase a LG from a non- licensee (not a gun dealer) who resides in the same State as the purchaser.

c. Gift / Loan - A person of any age may receive a LG as a gift or a loan from a non-licensee who resides in the same State as the recipient.

d. Outside State of Residency - A person maynot receive a LG from a non-licensee who resides in another State, except by:

1) Will or intestate succession, § 922 (a)(5)(A) giver, § 922 (a)(3)(A), receiver, or

2) Temporary loan or rental for lawful sporting purposes, § 922 (a)(5)(B), or

3) The non-resident may send or deliver the long gun to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) in the receiver’s State for purchase from the FFL, §922 (a)(2)(A)

e. It is a felony violation to willfully violate the residency laws: § 922 (a)(5) transferor’s violation, § 922 (a)(3) receiver’s violation, up to 5 years in prison.



4. Hand Gun Possession

a. A person under 18 years of age is a juvenile under Federal law and may not possess a handgun or handgun only ammo, §§ 922 (x)(2), (x)(3), & (x)(5), but exceptions exist, see Section C.11.

b. Possess - A person 18 years of age or older may possess a HG (pistol, revolver).

c. Purchase - A person 18 years of age or older may purchase a HG from a non-licensee (not a gun dealer) who resides in the same State as the purchaser.

d. Gift / Loan- A person 18 years of age or older may receive a HG as a gift or loan from a non-licensee who resides in the same State as the recipient.

e. Outside State of Residency - A person may not receive a HG from a non-licensee who resides in another State, except by:

1) Will or intestate succession, § 922 (a)(5)(A) giver, § 922 (a)(3)(A) receiver, or

2) Temporary loan or rental for lawful sporting purposes, § 922 (a)(5)(B), or

3) The non-resident may deliver the HG (see § 1715, HGs non-mailable) to an FFL in the receiver’s State for purchase from the FFL, § 922 (a)(2)(A).

f. It is a felony violation to willfully violate the residency laws: § 922 (a)(5) transferor’s violation, § 922 (a)(3) receiver’s violation, up to 5 years in prison.


I thnk that is it - unless the firearm is bequeathed to me. So, like, a willed item. Doh.

Librarian
02-03-2012, 2:47 PM
I just spoke to Turner's outdoorsman, and they told me that if my friend who lives in Texas gives me a rifle, I just have to file the following form (Voluntary registration):
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

According to the data you have provided though, as "Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person," even gifts are considered sales and must go through an FFL?

Does this mean that even though this is a gift, my friend would have to ship the rifle to an FFL and I would need to do another round of background checks and all that business?

Is this what you were talking about? 18 USC 922 (a)(5) (not 822?) http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html


I thnk that is it - unless the firearm is bequeathed to me. So, like, a willed item. Doh.

Holy necropost, Batman - a 2008 thread...

The guy at Turner's is wrong - please identify which store that is; occasionally we can get someone to talk to a manager.

Your contrary conclusion is correct - Feds require an FFL for interstate transfer.

(Yes, the one place where the original post said "822" was a typo for "922").

Current repository for the info in the post is
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

kotetu
02-03-2012, 5:51 PM
Turner's Outdoorsman Reseda
19329 Vanowen Street Reseda, CA 91335
(818) 996-5033

Thanks Librarian. :)

radioman
02-03-2012, 7:49 PM
Here's one, lets say a guy has a CA DL and a AZ ID, the place out in AZ is off the power grid, no bills, and he does not own where he lives in AZ, he had an address in Az but that's all, could still buy in AZ, now back in ca if he sells, he still has CA DL.

Librarian
02-03-2012, 8:25 PM
Here's one, lets say a guy has a CA DL and a AZ ID, the place out in AZ is off the power grid, no bills, and he does not own where he lives in AZ, he had an address in Az but that's all, could still buy in AZ, now back in ca if he sells, he still has CA DL.

Dual residency is a can of worms; my position is that if a state thinks you are a resident for gun purposes, then you do what that state allows when in that state.

CA law on new resident 'personal handgun importer' just isn't written for multi-state residency; that said, I'd report my handguns to CA on the PHI form, or, leave them out of state.

Sommers
05-10-2012, 11:10 PM
My parents live in South Carolina and are looking to buy a long rifle for me for my birthday. As far as I can tell, its CA compliant, so no issues there. How would I get it here?
1. They just buy it and ship it to me personally.
2. They buy it and ship it to an FFL as a private party transfer.
3. They buy it and need to do an FFL to FFL transfer.

From reading the CA DOJ site and this thread, I think its #2, but I want to be sure. Thanks.

PanaDP
05-10-2012, 11:56 PM
FOR IMMEDIATE FAMILY interstate inheritance of handguns is exempt from the FFL - Feds say so and CA allows the Intrafamilial transfer form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf)


What about intrafamilial transfers of legal handguns that are not inheritances? My mother-in-law in PA has a revolver that she wants me to have. It's a mid 70s S&W model 19 that belonged to my wife's deceased father. Could she bring it with her on a visit and give it to her daughter, my wife, using the form linked-to in the quote above? Then, if we want to down the road, ownership could be transferred from my wife to me. The way the form and the DOJ explain it that would seem to be correct and legal.

Quiet
05-11-2012, 12:27 AM
My parents live in South Carolina and are looking to buy a long rifle for me for my birthday. As far as I can tell, its CA compliant, so no issues there. How would I get it here?
1. They just buy it and ship it to me personally.
2. They buy it and ship it to an FFL as a private party transfer.
3. They buy it and need to do an FFL to FFL transfer.

From reading the CA DOJ site and this thread, I think its #2, but I want to be sure. Thanks.

1. This would violate Federal laws. Federal felony for both you and your parent.
2. This, if your CA FFL dealer accepts shipments from a private party.
3. This, if you CA FFL dealer only accepts shipments from FFLs.

Quiet
05-11-2012, 12:32 AM
What about intrafamilial transfers of legal handguns that are not inheritances? My mother-in-law in PA has a revolver that she wants me to have. It's a mid 70s S&W model 19 that belonged to my wife's deceased father. Could she bring it with her on a visit and give it to her daughter, my wife, using the form linked-to in the quote above? Then, if we want to down the road, ownership could be transferred from my wife to me. The way the form and the DOJ explain it that would seem to be correct and legal.

Because the firearm is being transfered between residents of different states, the firearm must be transfered through a FFL dealer.

If your mother-in-law brings the handgun to CA and hands it to your wife. Then your mother-in-law and your wife will be violating Federal laws and sending in the form will document them violating Federal laws (Federal felony for both your mother-in-law & your wife).

To be legal, the handgun must be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.

PanaDP
05-11-2012, 12:43 AM
Because the firearm is being transfered between residents of different states, the firearm must be transfered through a FFL dealer.

If your mother-in-law brings the handgun to CA and hands it to your wife. Then your mother-in-law and your wife will be violating Federal laws and sending in the form will document them violating Federal laws (Federal felony for both your mother-in-law & your wife).

To be legal, the handgun must be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.

So can my mother-in-law bring the revolver with her and we all go to a FFL and do the transfer, or is she still importing or some bull**** like that? I'm trying to avoid the extra $100 or so most FFLs will charge you to accept a gun shipped to them.

Quiet
05-11-2012, 12:59 AM
So can my mother-in-law bring the revolver with her and we all go to a FFL and do the transfer, or is she still importing or some bull**** like that? I'm trying to avoid the extra $100 or so most FFLs will charge you to accept a gun shipped to them.

Yes. She can bring the handgun to a CA FFL dealer, where your wife will do a 4473/DROS + 10 day wait for it. You wife will need a HSC + valid CA DL/ID + proof of residence.

Because your mother-in-law is not a CA resident, this is not a PPT and the CA FFL dealer can legally charge any amount to do the transfer.
However, because it is an intra-familial gift, the handgun is exempt from needing to be on the CA DOJ approved list for handgun sales.

Shop around for a CA FFL dealer that is knowledgeable about out-of-state intra-familial gifts and has a reasonable transfer fee.
There's a few places in SoCal that have a $70 transfer fee to do this.

PanaDP
05-11-2012, 1:02 AM
Got it. Thank you for the help, Sir.:cheers2:

PanaDP
05-14-2012, 11:19 PM
So I asked at a couple shops (oaktree and turners in pasadena) what they charged for an intrafamilial transfer where the parent is not a california resident and they both said I don't need to do it at a dealer. What's correct here?

Librarian
05-15-2012, 3:44 AM
Federal law requires an FFL in the receiving state for all hangun transfers, and CA law requires CA residents to use a CA-licensed FFL, so the Feds require the FFL for long guns, too.

The gun stores are wrong.

ETA See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

PanaDP
05-26-2012, 1:24 PM
Federal law requires an FFL in the receiving state for all hangun transfers, and CA law requires CA residents to use a CA-licensed FFL, so the Feds require the FFL for long guns, too.

The gun stores are wrong.

ETA See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate


So what am I supposed to do if I must do it through a FFL but no FFL will do it because they tell me it's not necessary?

Librarian
05-26-2012, 1:35 PM
So what am I supposed to do if I must do it through a FFL but no FFL will do it because they tell me it's not necessary?

Find a different FFL who is interested in his customers following Federal law, and thus will stay out of jail to become a repeat customer.

ETA and send those FFL people to read the wiki - it both quotes and links to the Federal law.

bsim
05-26-2012, 4:54 PM
Go to Fort Courage in Simi - Tim knows the intrafamilial transfer laws.

smeltzerbr
06-06-2012, 8:11 AM
What if you had no idea of CA gun laws, purchased a firearm from a friend out of state and brought it back to CA? Can you take the firearm to a local FFL, or would you need to return the firearm to the previous owner and have them ship to local FFL?

Mssr. Eleganté
06-06-2012, 1:13 PM
What if you had no idea of CA gun laws, purchased a firearm from a friend out of state and brought it back to CA? Can you take the firearm to a local FFL, or would you need to return the firearm to the previous owner and have them ship to local FFL?

The good news is that it isn't against California law to acquire a firearm from your friend while visiting him out of state.

The bad news is that it's been a violation of federal law since 1968. There isn't really a good way to "undo" the crime.