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Trendkill
08-02-2008, 8:27 PM
A few days ago I called the Santa Clara County Sheriffs Dep. to inquire about getting a CCW permit.....I did this purely due to boredome....since I know that CCW's in my area are basically non-existent. They asked me what city I lived in....and to call my city's PD for a CCW permit. So I called the San Jose Police Department....and through their automated telephone service....I reached the gun permits department......the gentleman answered the phone....and I simply asked "What steps should I take in order to aquire a Concealed Carry Permit?"......he replied with....."Oh....ummm...yeah....thats not going to happen....the Chief just won't issue those out at all....not at all".....so I said...."What about Open Carry then...?"....he replied....."Wow....not in this state.....not in California.....you will have to find another state to do that sort of thing..."....so I replied..."Thankyou for your time....have a nice day."

I didn't specify..."UNLOADED Open Carry" but regardless.....his replies were interesting....and he seemed very shocked that someone would even ask such things......

I think Santa Clara County / San Jose needs a wake-up call.......

Is there much pressure from CA-guns in my area???? Or are they too far gone for help????

rkt88edmo
08-02-2008, 8:41 PM
ha ha ha - ask him if he will send you a letter stating that in writing next time or to give you the application

CCWFacts
08-02-2008, 8:43 PM
ha ha ha - ask him if he will send you a letter stating that in writing next time or to give you the application

Yeah, if you can get that statement ("we don't issue permits") in writing, you'll be in great shape if you want to sue! Torrance PD is being put through the wringer for making a statement like that, in writing.

Casual Observer
08-02-2008, 8:44 PM
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_monopoly.jpg

x2 with above. Get it in writing. :D

Guntech
08-02-2008, 8:44 PM
ha ha ha - ask him if he will send you a letter stating that in writing next time or to give you the application

Yep thats the only step to take.

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 9:00 PM
I will write them for sure.....what would happen if they made that statement in writing and I sued????.....would they be forced to issue a CCW?? What would the lawsuit be for....infringement??? Is it at there discretion to issue no CCW's????

Casual Observer
08-02-2008, 9:03 PM
I will write them for sure.....what would happen if they made that statement and I sued????.....would they be forced to issue a CCW??

Maybe?

The city PD can defer to the county sheriff. They might just 'pass the buck' to the Santa Clara County Sheriff's office.

technique
08-02-2008, 9:07 PM
Wow.....I think SJ needs a wake up call! I'm in SJ and ready, yet reason does say...they are too far gone.




Bwiese????

CCWFacts
08-02-2008, 9:46 PM
The city PD can defer to the county sheriff. They might just 'pass the buck' to the Santa Clara County Sheriff's office.

No they can't. They need to have a consistent policy for all applicants.

There's only one way a city can say, "we don't issue": it's if they write a Memorandum of Understanding that says "we declare G" and they send it to the sheriff. Absent this written MOU, the city is in the issuing business, and if they're in the issuing business, then denying all applicants is an abuse of their discretion (see Salute v Pitchess).

The thing to do is to get their written policy and see what it says. Do they have such an MOU?

Torrance PD made the colossal mistake of not declaring G, and having a written policy of no-issuance. I wouldn't be surprised if they made other even more colossal mistakes, such as issuing permits in violation of their no-issuance policy. But that's just speculation / guessing.

Anyway, go ahead and follow up with a letter! Request their policy and an application.

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 9:49 PM
Ok.....I just sent the SJPD an E-mail.....dont know if I worded everything right...but I'm trying....I'm just a newbie gun-rights activist. Here is what I asked of them.......


"I called a few days ago in regards to aquiring a Concealed Carry Permit for my legally owned handgun. I was told over the phone by the gentleman in the permits department that the Chief of police "will not" issue one. I then asked about the "Open Carry" option....and was told..."not in this state....not in California."

Can I obtain a Concealed Carry permit??

Can I perform Un-loaded Open Carry??

I am aware of law regarding a concealed handgun or loaded handgun.....I am however not privy to law restricting an unloaded openly carried handgun. If I am wrong in my statement....please help guide me to the Penal Code that apply’s to the illegality of un-loaded open carry.

I am purely interested in the self-protection , safety and security of myself and my family.

Thankyou , Ben XXXXXXXX

SanSacto
08-02-2008, 9:54 PM
How about calling them again while recording them saying they will not issue a concealed carry permit. When they say that, ask for the person's name and badge number. See what they say then.

technique
08-02-2008, 9:55 PM
Post an Email address!!!! lets get the ball rolling!

ojisan
08-02-2008, 9:56 PM
Boredom can be a very, very good thing. ;)
You're not bored anymore, huh? :D
Follow-up, follow through.
Snail mail is legal tender.

bwiese
08-02-2008, 10:05 PM
Please, do not use email. The internet generation has gotten lazy.

Sent it US mail return receipt.

technique
08-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Oh man!!!!!!!

Santa Cruz Armory
08-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I need to do this in Santa Cruz county...:drool5:

technique
08-02-2008, 10:10 PM
San José Police Department
201 W. Mission Street
San Jose, CA 95110

This address??????

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 10:30 PM
Post an Email address!!!! lets get the ball rolling!

I just went to there web-site and hit the "contact" for the police chief.....it popped up a form to ask questions..comments...etc. It said they would reply in like 5 days.

I hope they can tell me a little about open carry too.

A reply e-mail can be used in court right???

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
How about calling them again while recording them saying they will not issue a concealed carry permit. When they say that, ask for the person's name and badge number. See what they say then.

Isn't it illegal to record phone conversations without consent.....and if they did consent to it....they would probably forget their own name.

SJgunguy24
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
A couple of weeks ago I went to SJPD to turn in the LEO copy of my ATF7CR (C&R FFL) and the officer starts giving me a hard time. He was treating he form like it was covered is crap,and was just being very rude and unprofessional. He made a few phone calls and gives me the form and tells me "we don't deal with these,go to the sheriff's office". After I told him that the S.O. has nothing to do with this,I have to turn this form into S.J.P.D. it's the same as if I were applying for a CCW. I said i'm attemting to follow the law the way it is written,and maybe you should study up a little on the laws that your sworn to enforce. I don't think he liked that.

He told me that I have no right to own a firearm because i'm not a cop ,and if he had his choice he come and take every gun I own and throw me in jail. I asked him if somebody breaks into my home and trys to kill my family what am I supposed to do? "Call us" When I asked him if that was his family what would he do? "I'm a cop i'll shoot them" I asked him what makes his family more important than mine,when I have seconds to act in a life threatening situation the police are miniutes away.

I support the police 100%,they have a tough thankless job,but when a law abiding citizen is trying to follow the law gets railed and treated like i'm below him. Thats flat wrong. This jagoff has the balls to say my family is less important than a police officers and I don't have the right to defend them,is what makes people hate the police.

Not more than 3 weeks later when I asked another cop about "Shall Issue" laws, he told me it would make his job a lot easier.

technique
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
I went there too, I'm gonna mail mine in, is it OK if I use your letter with my name? I'm part of the internet generation and lazy you know!!!!

Meplat
08-02-2008, 10:38 PM
How about calling them again while recording them saying they will not issue a concealed carry permit. When they say that, ask for the person's name and badge number. See what they say then.

Please, please, please, direct this guy to TBJ. It is a felony to record a phone conversation in CA without notification and consent of BOTH parties!!!!!!

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 10:41 PM
I went there too, I'm gonna mail mine in, is it OK if I use your letter with my name? I'm part of the internet generation and lazy you know!!!!

Sure.....no problemo...my wording sucks a bit....but I tried.

Meplat
08-02-2008, 10:43 PM
I just went to there web-site and hit the "contact" for the police chief.....it popped up a form to ask questions..comments...etc. It said they would reply in like 5 days.

I hope they can tell me a little about open carry too.

A reply e-mail can be used in court right???

NO!, Get in touch with Teem Billy Jack, I don't have the link but I know many on this site do,

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 10:44 PM
Please, do not use email. The internet generation has gotten lazy.

Sent it US mail return receipt.

I will type up..(with my wife's help on grammar) a real letter to send to them....certified.

CCWFacts
08-02-2008, 10:45 PM
Please, do not use email. The internet generation has gotten lazy.

Sent it US mail return receipt.

That's right. If you're going to have a hostile interaction, do not use email, do not use phones. Use certified mail, nothing else.

SanSacto
08-02-2008, 10:48 PM
Please, please, please, direct this guy to TBJ. It is a felony to record a phone conversation in CA without notification and consent of BOTH parties!!!!!!

Just a initial thought....never thought even about doing it, so I never got to thinking about the laws against it. Thanks for setting it straight for me, jeez.

CCWFacts
08-02-2008, 11:07 PM
Ok.....I just sent the SJPD an E-mail.....dont know if I worded everything right...but I'm trying....I'm just a newbie gun-rights activist. Here is what I asked of them.......

"I called a few days ago in regards to aquiring a Concealed Carry Permit for my legally owned handgun. I was told over the phone by the gentleman in the permits department that the Chief of police "will not" issue one. I then asked about the "Open Carry" option....and was told..."not in this state....not in California."

Can I obtain a Concealed Carry permit??

Can I perform Un-loaded Open Carry??

I am aware of law regarding a concealed handgun or loaded handgun.....I am however not privy to law restricting an unloaded openly carried handgun. If I am wrong in my statement....please help guide me to the Penal Code that apply’s to the illegality of un-loaded open carry.

I am purely interested in the self-protection , safety and security of myself and my family.

Thankyou , Ben XXXXXXXX

What are you trying to accomplish with this letter? They'll just laugh at it and toss it in the circular file.

technique
08-02-2008, 11:17 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this letter? They'll just laugh at it and toss it in the circular file.

Well.........Provide one, or an example. I'm sure anyway you word it, its all going in the circular file.

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 11:20 PM
What are you trying to accomplish with this letter? They'll just laugh at it and toss it in the circular file.

Educate me then.

CCWFacts
08-02-2008, 11:34 PM
Educate me then.

Well, the question really is, what are you trying to accomplish? The letter won't get you a CCW. If you want a CCW you need to know what your strategy is. In SJ, your only way forward is a lawsuit. If that's your way forward you need to first decide if you have the money and commitment to do it. It's not a trivial thing.

If you more want to express anger, protest, and feel like you're taking action (all of which are good, reasonable things to do) you could do it in some other ways. You could do it by applying for a CCW, in which case your letter is:

Dear Sir:

Please send me SJPD's written CCW policy, and CCW application form.

Regards,
....

But SJPD doesn't care about protests. SJPD isn't elected and they are merely following the political guidance given to them by SJ city council. Every time they deny a CCW, they know that they have the full support of the elected government of SJ.

So... you could think about eroding that elected support. You might do better demanding a meeting with your city council rep to ask him about the city's CCW issuance. Your goal would be to have CCW concerns be placed on the city council agenda. Demand it.

If a group of you got together and demanded that CCW issuance be the subject of a city council meeting or a hearing, that would be a great step forward.

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 11:36 PM
kljh

Trendkill
08-02-2008, 11:47 PM
Well, the question really is, what are you trying to accomplish? The letter won't get you a CCW. If you want a CCW you need to know what your strategy is. In SJ, your only way forward is a lawsuit. If that's your way forward you need to first decide if you have the money and commitment to do it. It's not a trivial thing.

If you more want to express anger, protest, and feel like you're taking action (all of which are good, reasonable things to do) you could do it in some other ways. You could do it by applying for a CCW, in which case your letter is:



But SJPD doesn't care about protests. SJPD isn't elected and they are merely following the political guidance given to them by SJ city council. Every time they deny a CCW, they know that they have the full support of the elected government of SJ.

So... you could think about eroding that elected support. You might do better demanding a meeting with your city council rep to ask him about the city's CCW issuance. Your goal would be to have CCW concerns be placed on the city council agenda. Demand it.

If a group of you got together and demanded that CCW issuance be the subject of a city council meeting or a hearing, that would be a great step forward.

My wife has some ties to some city council members.....maybe thats a start.

My letter however.....was simply asking...If I "could" obtain a CCW.....in other words....can a living human person residing in San Jose ever get one. I was hoping that I could get a response to get a better feel for their stance on the matter.

Secondly.....I am in eager anticipation to hear there feelings on un-loaded open carry.

I will be writing a more official "paper" letter and submitting it via certified mail.

If anyone can help me in regards to important points to address in the letter....aka...help me sound like less of a jack-***.....it would be greatly appreciated.

I am lacking the knowledge that a lot of you guys have in the way of procedure , law , etc.......but I want to be active....and I learn fairly quick. I want to be pro-active.

CCWFacts
08-03-2008, 12:05 AM
My wife has some ties to some city council members.....maybe thats a start.

If you have a connection, that's a good start.

My letter however.....was simply asking...If I "could" obtain a CCW.....in other words....can a living human person residing in San Jose ever get one. I was hoping that I could get a response to get a better feel for their stance on the matter.

The fact is, in SJ, probably a very few people get them. My guess is they issue to reserves, certain government officials, and maybe a very few VVIPs. But they're not going to tell you that. They'll probably just respond with their written policy. The written policies all come down to "demonstrated need", phrased one way or another. They'll never give an indication of how CCW friendly they are, or what counts as "demonstrated need"; they'll just talk about "demonstrated need" or something like that. But the fact is, they don't issue to ordinary people.

The other productive thing you can do is file a Public Records Act request to take a look at their CCW files. They are required by law to let you inspect the applications. They are always delighted when citizens do this. (Not.) But they have no choice; it's the law. That's probably your best action right now, to see who is getting them, and what their "demonstrated need" is. And if you do that, then you can bring it up on the political side (city council): "Why is it that the city manager has a permit, when I can't get one?" is a good, sufficiently uncomfortable question to ask in a city council meeting.

Secondly.....I am in eager anticipation to hear there feelings on un-loaded open carry.

I don't know how they would respond on that, or if they would respond.

I will be writing a more official "paper" letter and submitting it via certified mail.

Good idea.

I am lacking the knowledge that a lot of you guys have in the way of procedure , law , etc.......but I want to be active....and I learn fairly quick. I want to be pro-active.

Go for the Public Records Act request. I can help you draft that.

BillCA
08-03-2008, 12:41 AM
Before you flail about like a drowning man in the sea,

Contact Team Billy Jack and ask for information about how to go about the process. TBJ's advice will help you build the necessary information you need to either file a lawsuit or smack the city council around for supporting the PD's violating the discretion part of the CCW statute.

For what it's worth, SJPD stopped issuing permits in the 70's. MacNamara refused to issue any at all for any reason.

Trendkill
08-03-2008, 12:46 AM
The public records act is a great idea....

Why is this guys life or stuff of more worth than my own??? Yeah.

I'm on it.

Trendkill
08-03-2008, 12:49 AM
MacNamara refused to issue any at all for any reason.

Thats about what the guy told me on the phone.

I wanted to say...."well what do I do with my locked up unloaded handgun?"....but I didnt want to argue it.

I will look up Billy Jack.

Paladin
08-03-2008, 1:48 AM
If anyone can help me in regards to important points to address in the letter....aka...help me sound like less of a jack-***.....it would be greatly appreciated.

I am lacking the knowledge that a lot of you guys have in the way of procedure , law , etc.......but I want to be active....and I learn fairly quick. I want to be pro-active.As others have said, "Stop. Go no further. Contact Team Billy Jack before proceeding" (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/). Be sure to read their FAQs page (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/faq.html).

If you (and others) read BJ's blog, you will see that he is already investigating SJPD (http://californiaconcealedcarry.com/blog/).

Right now, helping TBJ out is probably the best thing you and others in SJ/Santa Clara Co. (and all the other hardcore anti-CCW Bay Area cities and counties) can do to improve your situation.

Also, I'd lay low re unloaded OC for a few months. For the reason, just go back a week or two on this subforum's directory to find a the thread which explains why that is the most wise & prudent thing for all of us at this time. Even some of the hardcore pro-OC people came to agree w/that assessment.

For more ideas re. promoting CCW reform in this state (actually, around 15 things to do), see the links in my signature line. CCWs are my TOP 2nd A PRIORITY (as you'll clearly see if you look up at my profile all the threads I've started).

Trendkill
08-03-2008, 2:04 AM
I sent TBJ an e-mail....

MikeH1
08-03-2008, 6:43 AM
as with most poilce departments, armed citizenry poses a threat to their ability to "do their job". They can't abuse civilians when those civilians can fight back, that's what they are afraid of.

Also, while ignorance of the law (as in this case) is perfectly acceptable for someone who's profession is the law itself, god forbid if one of us pleads ignorance of the law.

Manic Moran
08-03-2008, 7:51 AM
A while back I started the process with Santa Clara Sheriff's Dept. I stopped it for a couple of reasons: Wife was looking to be admitted to CA Bar and didn't want me to rock the boat (She got admitted two months ago), I vanished out of State to Kentucky for half a year (Where I am now), and, frankly, I don't have the money to take anyone to court anyway.

Initially I had just dropped by SCSD in person, application in hand. I spoke with the Deputy in charge of the CCW section, who was careful not to make any encompassing generalisations. He did not say "You will not get one, do not bother applying." He did say "It is purely at the discretion of the Sheriff. I have seen applications with better 'good cause' than this get rejected. If you want me to take your $30 and process it, I will, but I think personally that you're wasting your money."

After a brief interaction with TBJ, I sent registered mail for the CCW policy, and basically received back by registered mail (quite quickly) the application form and sections of the CPC with highlighter emphasis on some parts such as "At the discretion of the Sheriff" and "Appealed to the Sheriff." TBJ laughed at the "policy."

That's as far as I went before ceasing operations for the above reasons. I never actually submitted the application to be rejected. I return to CA next month and can go ahead and submit one for the craic of it, but my financial situation is such I still can't see myself going any further.

NTM

Ford8N
08-03-2008, 9:08 AM
A couple of weeks ago I went to SJPD to turn in the LEO copy of my ATF7CR (C&R FFL) and the officer starts giving me a hard time. He was treating he form like it was covered is crap,and was just being very rude and unprofessional. He made a few phone calls and gives me the form and tells me "we don't deal with these,go to the sheriff's office". After I told him that the S.O. has nothing to do with this,I have to turn this form into S.J.P.D. it's the same as if I were applying for a CCW. I said i'm attemting to follow the law the way it is written,and maybe you should study up a little on the laws that your sworn to enforce. I don't think he liked that.

He told me that I have no right to own a firearm because i'm not a cop ,and if he had his choice he come and take every gun I own and throw me in jail. I asked him if somebody breaks into my home and trys to kill my family what am I supposed to do? "Call us" When I asked him if that was his family what would he do? "I'm a cop i'll shoot them" I asked him what makes his family more important than mine,when I have seconds to act in a life threatening situation the police are miniutes away.

I support the police 100%,they have a tough thankless job,but when a law abiding citizen is trying to follow the law gets railed and treated like i'm below him. Thats flat wrong. This jagoff has the balls to say my family is less important than a police officers and I don't have the right to defend them,is what makes people hate the police.

Not more than 3 weeks later when I asked another cop about "Shall Issue" laws, he told me it would make his job a lot easier.



If this truly happened as you describe, no wonder people, especially gun owners hate cops.

Post his name.

WokMaster1
08-03-2008, 9:16 AM
If this truly happened as you describe, no wonder people, especially gun owners hate cops.

Post his name.

+100000000. Do it! You can't spill these kinds of accusations on a LEO & not give details. These accusations are serious enough to warrant a reprimand on the said officer for that kind of unprofessional behavior.

skscj
08-03-2008, 9:17 AM
I know a older guy in San Jose that has a CCW. He is a barber and thats it, other than being good buddys with the head honcho of the SJSD. Go figure.

swhatb
08-03-2008, 11:28 AM
i know that guy too....but i believe his ccw comes from the s/o because of his affilication.

SJgunguy24
08-03-2008, 11:32 AM
What really pissed me off,as I started to walk away the cop who gave me the most crap,started running his mouth. I went back and asked him if he wants to debate me than lets do it ,but please don't hide behind your little window. B.T.W. I got a letter from Santa Clara Sheriff which states exactly what I told that jag off that I must contact the SJPD. Why do these guys think they know firearm law,when more times than not it doesn't even apply to them. If I didn't have to worry about something I wouldn't study up on it as if my freedom depends on it.

Rhys898
08-03-2008, 11:50 AM
affilication.

Huh?

Jer

Trendkill
08-03-2008, 10:42 PM
This was the reply from TBJ....I think he wants me to post this.....


"I read your e-mail prior to seeing the posts on this subject at calguns. If you
are the person that called SJPD I would like to speak with you. For that matter
I would like to speak to all that posted who live in the city. We can correct
their behavior but it must be co-ordinated and focused. Even a phone call has
evidenciary value if conducted properly.

If you want to help, post that Billy is monitoring the thread and would like
contact at clueseau@dslextreme.com I will answer all e-mails.

Sincerely,



Billy Jack"

IGOTDIRT4U
08-04-2008, 8:02 AM
Yep thats the only step to take.

Followed by a PRAR.

WokMaster1
08-04-2008, 8:05 AM
What really pissed me off,as I started to walk away the cop who gave me the most crap,started running his mouth. I went back and asked him if he wants to debate me than lets do it ,but please don't hide behind your little window. B.T.W. I got a letter from Santa Clara Sheriff which states exactly what I told that jag off that I must contact the SJPD. Why do these guys think they know firearm law,when more times than not it doesn't even apply to them. If I didn't have to worry about something I wouldn't study up on it as if my freedom depends on it.

Not to be disrespectful but you wanted to debate gunrights with a trash can? Stop wasting your time & energy & talk to TBJ. I have to warn you though, he chooses his case for obvious reasons & make sure you have some $$$$$$$$$$ set aside for legal.

"I have a great cause but no money to spare" I think that cover 90% of us here. But if the call comes to help donate, I'm in.:)

Glock22Fan
08-04-2008, 8:08 AM
Maybe?

The city PD can defer to the county sheriff. They might just 'pass the buck' to the Santa Clara County Sheriff's office.


Not so, not legally anyway. Unless they have an MOU (declared G), they have to consider all applicants on the same basis. Considering some and referring others to the sheriff is not acceptable.