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View Full Version : Can I drive to Nevada and buy a machine gun?


oaklander
07-31-2008, 2:07 PM
Before you laugh - please realize that there appears to be some support for the notion that you can do this, as long as you abide by NFA rules and the GCA, and keep the rifle in Nevada.

Please see:

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

Thoughts??? Has anyone done this???

sorensen440
07-31-2008, 2:19 PM
if its not a legal gun here you cant buy it there


(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale [B]complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Theseus
07-31-2008, 2:21 PM
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

If you reside in California, where it is illegal to buy a machine gun it seems clear to me that you can not but a machine gun in Nevada.

DOH!! You beat me!

Surfdog
07-31-2008, 2:21 PM
.....and the State where the purchaser resides.

Would the fact that the purchaser lives in a state where we can't own a machine gun be the deal breaker, or is there something about that I am missing.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-31-2008, 2:23 PM
If only we could find a FFL in a qualifying state that is willing to play ball. I thought I read somewhere that the machine gun has to be stored at your place of residence with multiple restrictions on traveling with said machine gun. If you didn't own a place, say in Nevada, could you legally leave the machine gun with a family member or friend? Perhaps some sort of trust with multiple owners? I guess you can always buy a condo in Vegas. Probably cheaper than the machine gun. :p

ETA: I guess if you owned a condo in Nevada you could be considered a seasonal resident and bypass this entirely.

VegasND
07-31-2008, 2:26 PM
No, but feel free to come to Nevada and buy ME a machine gun! I'll be happy to let you shoot it whenever you wish.:hurray:

CSACANNONEER
07-31-2008, 2:29 PM
It's not illegal to buy a machine gun in Ca. It's just impossible to get the proper authorization. But technically, it's legal here.

JeffM
07-31-2008, 2:32 PM
.....and the State where the purchaser resides.

Would the fact that the purchaser lives in a state where we can't own a machine gun be the deal breaker, or is there something about that I am missing.

If there is a law on the books saying that one cannot own a machine gun in another state, then yes. I don't know of any CA law that states you cannot own one in NV.

DO IT!

oaklander
07-31-2008, 2:34 PM
I think that particular federal law applies only if you intend to bring the gun back into California.

Please explain to me how California law can prevent me from buying a gun in another state, if I comply with all federal laws and never bring the gun into California.

:)

If you reside in California, where it is illegal to buy a machine gun it seems clear to me that you can not but a machine gun in Nevada.

DOH!! You beat me!

Sampachi
07-31-2008, 2:48 PM
I think you could incorporate in Nevada. Register the MG to the corporation and then, if you had property or a business in Nevada, legally store it there.

6172crew
07-31-2008, 2:53 PM
Before moving to NV I asked the same question and was told by my 03 FFL that she would do the paperwork if I wanted to try.

If I move back to CA I will keep my class 3 toys and store them at the 24/7 safety deposit place...the parts will all fit into a shoe box...the ones that count anyways.

First thing I would do is talk with the Carson City Sheriff, he is very gun friendly and works with the NRA big time. Second thing would be to talk with the ATF about your plans and ask them if they would give the stamp if CCSD signed off on it and third Id have all the laws in writting so your not wasting the LEOs time.

I think it can be done. BTW not all LE sign offs are easy in NV but I have found the CCSD will sign mine in 48 hours or so, compare that to Lion or Renos time of weeks if not months.

If your looking to talk with my class 3 person give me a PM...just make sure you have a strong case so you can pave the way for the rest of CalGuns.:)

Librarian
07-31-2008, 2:53 PM
I think that particular federal law applies only if you intend to bring the gun back into California.

Please explain to me how California law can prevent me from buying a gun in another state, if I comply with all federal laws and never bring the gun into California.

:)

I believe 18 USC 922 (a)(3), (a)(5) and (b)(3) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) combine to say that non-licensed individuals cannot bring anything across state lines and neither licensed individuals nor non-licensed individuals may deliver a gun to someone who lives in another state.

So, if you comply with all Federal laws, you can't get one.

6172crew
07-31-2008, 2:56 PM
I believe 18 USC 922 (a)(3), (a)(5) and (b)(3) (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) combine to say that non-licensed individuals cannot bring anything across state lines and neither licensed individuals nor non-licensed individuals may deliver a gun to someone who lives in another state.

So, if you comply with all Federal laws, you can't get one.

Id say if you had a duel residence you could stay within the law. One thing that happens when you start your paperwork you hae to give them your license and then when the stamp shows up you have to give it up again to do the same form you would fill out for any fireamr but there is no background check done at this time because you have alreeady done one with the BATFE.

Id start out with a Tac65 can first...thy only cost $250 plus the stamp.

Glock22Fan
07-31-2008, 3:03 PM
Hey, Oaklander, perhaps you should be paying us a legal retainer so we can be answering these questions for you?

(Only joking, it's a complex subject all right).

heavyrecoil
07-31-2008, 3:04 PM
Interesting idea. If it's something you're seriously thinking about, this sounds very much like something to discuss with an attorney that is knowledgeable about firearms-related issues/laws, rather than with us knuckleheads out here on the Internet. :)

ke6guj
07-31-2008, 3:20 PM
Kevin, IIRC, I did see on another forum a thread about a person with an out-of-state trust buying NFA in that out-of-state trust. The reason for the out--of-state trust was that the home state did not allow for NFA stuff, I'm thinking NY or NJ. Anyways, he was able to make the purchase with the trust, but he had to fill out the 4473 as the grantor/trustee. Like I said, IIRC, but if I can find the thread, I'll post it.

Librarian
07-31-2008, 3:29 PM
Id say if you had a duel residence you could stay within the law.

Almost certainly, but dual residency isn't all that common - it's not a general solution.

I like the idea of forming a NV corporation; if a dealer would sell to a corp (and that is legal) I think the NV corp could keep the gun in NV. I'd expect it'd need more than a PO Box, though, to get any local CLEO to sign off on the transfer, but I really don't know anything useful about corporations at this level.

ke6guj
07-31-2008, 3:35 PM
I'd expect it'd need more than a PO Box, though, to get any local CLEO to sign off on the transfer, but I really don't know anything useful about corporations at this level.
That would be one of the reasons to go with a corp/trust, no CLEO sign-off or photos/prints needed. However, the person picking up the item does need to fill out a 4473, and that is where there could be problem, with a CA-resident filling out the 4473.

bwiese
07-31-2008, 3:38 PM
I would expect that broad issues surrounding Californians not being able to buy firearms in Nevada from NV FFLs - even solely for use within Nevada - while residents of other states can do so - will become legally "interesting".

Mssr. Eleganté
07-31-2008, 7:31 PM
I think that particular federal law applies only if you intend to bring the gun back into California.

Please explain to me how California law can prevent me from buying a gun in another state, if I comply with all federal laws and never bring the gun into California.

:)

Federal law says that for out of state sales to be legal, the sale, delivery, and receipt must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States. So the question is, would buying from an FFL in Nevada comply with the legal conditions of sale, delivery and receipt in California? To get around this question you could just buy a C&R machinegun that is at least 50 years old since C&R long guns over 50 years old are exempt from California's Dealer transfer and DROS requirements.

§ 922. Unlawful acts

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States...

But a bigger problem is that the Gun Control Act specifies that only a "rifle or shotgun" is eligible for out of state purchase. The very same Gun Control Act says that machineguns are not rifles...

§ 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter --
(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

artherd
08-01-2008, 12:43 AM
We rapidly get into issues of 'residency' here, a complicated topic depending on which three letter agency you are dealing with.

Personally, I have IDs issued by more than 3 states; all legally.

The answer today seems to be a "yes, but..."

The answer soon may be interesting under equal protection issues.

artherd
08-01-2008, 12:43 AM
We rapidly get into issues of 'residency' here, a complicated topic depending on which three letter agency you are dealing with.

Personally, I have IDs issued by more than 3 states; all legally.

The answer today seems to be a "yes, but..."

The answer soon may be interesting under equal protection issues.

tiki
08-01-2008, 7:49 AM
Kevin, IIRC, I did see on another forum a thread about a person with an out-of-state trust buying NFA in that out-of-state trust. The reason for the out--of-state trust was that the home state did not allow for NFA stuff, I'm thinking NY or NJ. Anyways, he was able to make the purchase with the trust, but he had to fill out the 4473 as the grantor/trustee. Like I said, IIRC, but if I can find the thread, I'll post it.

Yeah, I would be interested in that post. I have an out of state trust and a place to keep it. I would love to stick a suppressor or two in a safe deposit box in that state.

Guntech
08-01-2008, 10:13 AM
The problem is finding a FFL that is willing to deal with out of state people let alone California people (home of the gun grabbers revolution)