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Sawdust
07-31-2008, 8:11 AM
What is the law concerning a CCW licensee carrying a loaded handgun at an airport?

Obviously, not legal once beginning to go through security to the gates, but what about elsewhere in the terminal, outside sidewalks, parking areas, etc.?

Thanks,

Sawdust

Afmo
07-31-2008, 9:35 AM
me personally, i'd say don't do it.

not worth the trouble if you accidentally flash it or someone sees it print etc. YMMV

emc002
07-31-2008, 9:38 AM
Some permits expressly prohibit it, thus doing so would violate your issuing agencies rules for CCW holders.
Check with your issuing agency, of course assuming you actually have a CCW.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 9:42 AM
me personally, i'd say don't do it.



Why not? It is no crime. Even without a ccw how do you propose one checks a firearm in their baggage?

Note: the following is State Penal Code only. Always check the fed. statutes/TSA for further restrictions in secured areas.

171.5 (http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/142-181.html). (a) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Airport" means an airport, with a secured area, that
regularly serves an air carrier holding a certificate issued by the
United States Secretary of Transportation.
(2) "Passenger vessel terminal" means only that portion of a
harbor or port facility, as described in Section 105.105(a)(2) of
Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, with a secured area that
regularly serves scheduled commuter or passenger operations.
(3) "Sterile area" means a portion of an airport defined in the
airport security program to which access generally is controlled
through the screening of persons and property, as specified in
Section 1540.5 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or a
portion of any passenger vessel terminal to which, pursuant to the
requirements set forth in Sections 105.255(a)(1), 105.255(c)(1), and
105.260(a) of Title 33 of the Code of Federal Regulations, access is
generally controlled in a manner consistent with the passenger vessel
terminal's security plan and the MARSEC level in effect at the time.

(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess, within any
sterile area of an airport or a passenger vessel terminal, any of
the items listed in subdivision (c).
(c) The following items are unlawful to possess as provided in
subdivision (b):
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed, or is capable of being fixed, in an
unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(3) Any box cutter or straight razor.
(4) Any metal military practice hand grenade.
(5) Any metal replica hand grenade.
(6) Any plastic replica hand grenade.
(7) Any imitation firearm as defined in Section 417.4.
(8) Any frame, receiver, barrel, or magazine of a firearm.
(9) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(10) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(11) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a
BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or
spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
(12) Any ammunition as defined in Section 12316.
(d) Subdivision (b) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) A duly appointed peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5
(commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a retired peace
officer with authorization to carry concealed weapons as described in
subdivision (a) of Section 12027, a full-time paid peace officer of
another state or the federal government who is carrying out official
duties while in California, or any person summoned by any of these
officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he
or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
(2) A person who has authorization to possess a weapon specified
in subdivision (c), granted in writing by an airport security
coordinator who is designated as specified in Section 1542.3 of Title
49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and who is responsible for
the security of the airport.
(3) A person, including an employee of a licensed contract guard
service, who has authorization to possess a weapon specified in
subdivision (c) granted in writing by a person discharging the duties
of Facility Security Officer or Company Security Officer pursuant to
an approved United States Coast Guard facility security plan, and
who is responsible for the security of the passenger vessel terminal.

(e) A violation of this section is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail for a period not exceeding six months, or by a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(f) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and shall not
be construed as restricting the application of any other law.
However, an act or omission that is punishable in different ways by
this and any other provision of law shall not be punished under more
than one provision.
(g) Nothing in this section is intended to affect existing state
or federal law regarding the transportation of firearms on airplanes
in checked luggage, or the possession of the items listed in
subdivision (c) in areas that are not "sterile areas."

Afmo
07-31-2008, 10:16 AM
thats just me. people go into irrational mode in airports.

I never said it was a crime, i just don't have the patience or money to deal with an overzealous airport cop or TSA agent because i was carrying at an airport...

which is why i said YMMV (your mileage may vary)

Decoligny
07-31-2008, 10:30 AM
Good story of a Pennsylvania gentleman who open carried in the Oakland Airport.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8580.html

The cops were wrong when they said he commited a misdemeanor and they could arrest him, but they were being nice and letting him go with a warning.

He did everything absolutley by the letter of the law, and they knew it. They just wanted to try to leave him with the, "whew, I'll never do that again" attitude of having just barely gotten away with something.

6172crew
07-31-2008, 10:38 AM
Nevada CCW says you can not carry at Airports...not even LEO. Im not sure what CA says because I dont have one of those.

Sawdust
07-31-2008, 10:44 AM
Allow me to clarify my question.

I am specifically asking about loaded, concealed handgun carry by a person (me) with a California CCW (with no restrictions denoted by the issuing ageny) within and around a public airport located in California.

Oh, and I don't need opinions as to whether or not it is a "good idea"...just responses from those knowledgable of the revelant laws.

Thanks,

Sawdust

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 10:45 AM
Nevada CCW says you can not carry at Airports...not even LEO. I'm not sure what CA says because I dont have one of those.

Ca. PC 12050 licenses don't come with legislated restrictions. That is left up to the issuing authority and must be "resonable" (Issuing Agency = head of municiple police dept., police chief, or sheriff). DOJ types like to invent restrictions (which exceeds their authority) on the state application form called "conditions of license".

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 10:52 AM
Allow me to clarify my question.

I am specifically asking about loaded, concealed handgun carry by a person (me) with a California CCW (with no restrictions denoted by the issuing ageny) within and around a public airport located in California.

Oh, and I don't need opinions as to whether or not it is a "good idea"...just responses from those knowledgable of the revelant laws.

Thanks,

Sawdust

With your PC 12050 license you are exempt from PC sections 12025 and 12031. 171.5 only applies in "sterile areas" - you are not exempt from this. I do not know of any laws that you, with a valid license, could be charged with for carrying loaded and concealed, absent other criminal activity, in a non-sterile area of a Ca. airport.

There is no law I know of that prohibits carrying unloaded exposed, loaded mags separate for that matter either.

jamesob
07-31-2008, 11:03 AM
different airports may have different regulations about loaded concealed firearms. international airports i would think, would be the strictest.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 11:15 AM
different airports may have different regulations about loaded concealed firearms. international airports i would think, would be the strictest.

citations please

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 11:29 AM
Good story of a Pennsylvania gentleman who open carried in the Oakland Airport.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8580.html

The cops were wrong when they said he commited a misdemeanor and they could arrest him, but they were being nice and letting him go with a warning.

He did everything absolutley by the letter of the law, and they knew it. They just wanted to try to leave him with the, "whew, I'll never do that again" attitude of having just barely gotten away with something....

So I had my first experience with California open carry today...suffice it to say I ended up in handcuffs. Unfortunately it was partially my fault.

I arrived into Oakland Airport and found out that people I was meeting theres flight got delayed so I had about 8 hours to kill so instead of sitting there at the airport like a lump I decided to check out San Fran. I didnt want to lug my luggage around so I checked it into a little check in shop at the airport, holstered my sidearm unloaded and made my way to the BART airport shuttle. Unfortunately I discovered that it only takes exact change so without thinking I headed back into the airport to break a $20.

The Alameda Sherriff's dept. was there to greet me and had me in cuffs pretty quickly. The funny thing was that when they came up they asked if I had a firearm on me, I looked down to my hip and said Yes. The main LEO asked what I was doing and I told him that it was my understanding that Open carry was legal in the state of CA. To which he replied that i was dead wrong and that this wasnt Nevada, Arizona or Texas. I refrained from correcting him that Texas doesn not permit open carry. Anyhow they take me back to their office and start asking some questions, main stuff, did i have ID, where i was from etc.

I told them my id was in my pocket, they took it out ALONG with my pamphlet about Open Carry in CA that I printed from this site along with the 2 page flyer that someone else had posted from here. Now this, along with my choice of sidearm, impressed them. They looked over the pamphlet and we started shootin the breeze a bit, army talk, weapon selection etc. Apparently carrying a concealed firearm is a misdemeanor but carrying a concealed butterfly knife is a felony.

But I digress, they told me that I was correct that OC is legal in california though they said I would have problems trying to excercise that right in SF. Apparently when I walked back into the airport I committed a misdemeanor myself by not having my sidearm in my gun case [ADDED BY LIBERTY1 - NOT TRUE AS IT IS NOT A VIOLATION OF 171.5 PC] but they agreed that it was just a misunderstanding and didn't charge me with anything. They were so impressed by the pamphlet that they asked if they could borrow it to make copies(their copier was down at that moment) I said sure and they said it would be with my luggage when I returned.

All in all i think it was a enlightening experience all around. I learned to pay better attention to where i am going and the sherriffs learned something new about the legality of Open carry in california.

Prophet - Winning the hearts and minds of LEO's since 2008!

Great work on that pamphlet by the way.

tango-52
07-31-2008, 11:36 AM
Allow me to clarify my question.

I am specifically asking about loaded, concealed handgun carry by a person (me) with a California CCW (with no restrictions denoted by the issuing ageny) within and around a public airport located in California.

Oh, and I don't need opinions as to whether or not it is a "good idea"...just responses from those knowledgable of the revelant laws.

Thanks,

Sawdust

Obviously not in the secure area. For other areas, it can depend on the municipality. Answers to your questions on CCW laws can be found at www.calccw.com (http://www.calccw.com)

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 11:50 AM
For other areas, it can depend on the municipality.

How can a municipality legislate away the states authority as granted in 12050 and the exemptions to other state possession/loaded laws?

I understand the "I don't want to be a test case" crowd, but as a matter of law I don't understand your position stated above when viewed against implied preemption and the supremacy of state legislation on a specific topic; particulary a PC 12050 handgun license and exemptions.

emc002
07-31-2008, 11:57 AM
Allow me to clarify my question.

I am specifically asking about loaded, concealed handgun carry by a person (me) with a California CCW (with no restrictions denoted by the issuing ageny) within and around a public airport located in California.

Oh, and I don't need opinions as to whether or not it is a "good idea"...just responses from those knowledgable of the revelant laws.

Thanks,

Sawdust

If there are no restrictions by your issuing agency (clearly you're not an Orange County Resident, thus I'm guessing San Bernadino) then you are GTG in unrestricted areas of the airport...
UNLESS it is posted anywhere on the airport property prohibiting the possession of firearms. IRRC, it is posted ALL OVER John Wayne and LAX, thus you cannot carry, even with a CCW, anywhere on those airports' property.
If it is a small muni-airport, the restrictions are usually much less stringet with no "sterile" areas and they ususally don't have any postings (at least when I fly I've not seen any).

tango-52
07-31-2008, 11:58 AM
How can a municipality legislate away the states authority as granted in 12050 and the exemptions to other state possession/loaded laws?

I understand the "I don't want to be a test case" crowd, but as a matter of law I don't understand your position stated above when viewed against implied preemption and the supremacy of state legislation on a specific topic; particulary a PC 12050 handgun license and exemptions.

It is my understanding that the state law specifically does not preempt in the area of municipal airport authority.

emc002
07-31-2008, 12:01 PM
How can a municipality legislate away the states authority as granted in 12050 and the exemptions to other state possession/loaded laws?

If by municipality you mean issuaing agency... then because issuing authority is granted/delegated to the municipalities by the state. Thus they can place reasonable restrictions on the use of the CCW permits they issue.
(I'm not talking about issuance restrictions here, just use restrictions.)

E.g. The state exempts valid CCW permit holders from prohibitions on carrying on school property, but County A (in which I live) won't let you CCW on "school property" while County B (a neighboring county no less) places no such restriction on the permit.

If by municipality you mean other governmental entities, then they can place specific restrictions on their property just like any private property owner can and prohibit you carrying on their private property.

6172crew
07-31-2008, 4:04 PM
Ca. PC 12050 licenses don't come with legislated restrictions. That is left up to the issuing authority and must be "resonable" (Issuing Agency = head of municiple police dept., police chief, or sheriff). DOJ types like to invent restrictions (which exceeds their authority) on the state application form called "conditions of license".


Not to highjack this tread but NV law cant be undone by local restrictions...I dont know the PC but the law I quoted was a state law...somehow the LV area has some extra BS about reporting firearms but the CCW guy giving the class said it was BS and to ignore it.:confused: LV law is pretty easy to remember...no .gov building, no airports, and dont be drunk.:)

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 6:50 PM
It is my understanding that the state law specifically does not preempt in the area of municipal airport authority.


I'd be interested in reading the citation; could just be in the area of business & zoning regs and the like, but I doubt an airport authority could supersede state penal code. That's a new one for me, would love to learn the specifics if you can cite.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 6:52 PM
Not to highjack this tread but NV law cant be undone by local restrictions...I dont know the PC but the law I quoted was a state law...somehow the LV area has some extra BS about reporting firearms but the CCW guy giving the class said it was BS and to ignore it.:confused: LV law is pretty easy to remember...no .gov building, no airports, and dont be drunk.:)

Yes NV has near total state preemption on the subject of firearm. I believe that just happened late last year.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 6:54 PM
If by municipality you mean other governmental entities...

This is what I meant.

spsellars
07-31-2008, 7:43 PM
UNLESS it is posted anywhere on the airport property prohibiting the possession of firearms. IRRC, it is posted ALL OVER John Wayne and LAX, thus you cannot carry, even with a CCW, anywhere on those airports' property.

Do you happen to have a cite for this? I was taught that outside of those places specifically prohibited in the P.C., "No Weapons" signs hold as much authority as "Have a Nice Day" signs. (i.e. irrelevant until they ask you to leave.)

CCWFacts
07-31-2008, 7:46 PM
people go into irrational mode in airports.

They sure do! Gee, the non-sterile areas of an airport are nothing different from, say, the non-sterile areas of an office building or a shopping mall or whatever. It's just a big public building.

I would certainly CCW in the non-sterile areas, provided it was allowed by the issuing authority and by law. Why not?

tango-52
07-31-2008, 10:13 PM
Do you happen to have a cite for this? I was taught that outside of those places specifically prohibited in the P.C., "No Weapons" signs hold as much authority as "Have a Nice Day" signs. (i.e. irrelevant until they ask you to leave.)

As I stated previously, municipalities may establish their own regulations (laws) for airport property that they operate. Here is the cite from California Government Code:

50474. In connection with the erection, improvement, expansion, or
maintenance of such airports or facilities, a local agency may:
(a) Regulate the receipt, deposit, and removal, and the
embarkation or debarkation of passengers or property to and from such
landing places or moorage.
(b) Exact charges, fees, and tolls, and enforce liens for their
payment.
(c) Lease or assign for operation any space and any necessary or
useful appurtenances, appliances, or other conveniences.
(d) Own and operate aircraft.
(e) Employ pilots.
(f) Regulate the use of the airport and facilities and other
property or means of transportation within or over the airport.
(g) Perform any duties necessary or convenient for the regulation
of air traffic.
(h) Enter into contracts or otherwise cooperate with the federal
government or other public or private agencies.
(i) Exercise powers necessary or convenient in the promotion of
aeronautics and commerce and navigation by air.


The two clauses I highlighted are sufficient for the local agency to establish whether CCW will be permitted on airport grounds. Now, many probably haven't considered it and may not have adopted a regulation regarding it. Probably not a problem if you are picking someone up curbside. But I would check before CCWing in the airport outside the secure area.

Thus, state CCW laws may not preempt local regulations at airports because state law give the locals the authority there. I am not aware of any other areas where the local laws would prevail.

spsellars
07-31-2008, 10:17 PM
[I]50474. In connection with the erection, improvement, expansion, or maintenance of such airports or facilities, a local agency may

I'm not sure I see the connection here... How does CCW fall within the scope of erection, improvement, expansion, or maintenance of said airports and/or facilities?

NiteQwill
07-31-2008, 10:27 PM
Try it and see what happens. At least in OC, OCSD will pull your permit if they find out you carried into John Wayne curbside. I have to find the OC muni code about loaded firearms on airport property... I'll post back.

tango-52
07-31-2008, 10:32 PM
I'm not sure I see the connection here... How does CCW fall within the scope of erection, improvement, expansion, or maintenance of said airports and/or facilities?

Read the bolded subparagraphs. This is about operation of the facility too. The state has given local agencies the authority to regulate all activity at the airport:

(f) Regulate the use of the airport and facilities and other
property or means of transportation within or over the airport.

(i) Exercise powers necessary or convenient in the promotion of
aeronautics and commerce and navigation by air.

spsellars
07-31-2008, 10:34 PM
Try it and see what happens. At least in OC, OCSD will pull your permit if they find out you carried into John Wayne curbside. I have to find the OC muni code about loaded firearms on airport property... I'll post back.

If you find it, please do cite it, I found nothing after a cursory search of lexisnexis.com.

OC apparently does place such restrictions on the CCW itself, but that would not prevent someone with a CCW issued in another county (with no such restriction) from carrying in their airports. (Unless this elusive law can be found, of course.)

jamesob
07-31-2008, 10:35 PM
citations pleasei can't help you with citations but i can tell you how you can find out quick. you will find your answer in lax, but you have to carry concealed.

spsellars
07-31-2008, 10:38 PM
Read the bolded subparagraphs. This is about operation of the facility too. The state has given local agencies the authority to regulate all activity at the airport:

The subsections you bolded have a limited scope, hence the preamble. So under that limited scope of erection, improvement, expansion, and maintenance, which are you claiming CCW falls under?

tango-52
07-31-2008, 10:56 PM
The subsections you bolded have a limited scope, hence the preamble. So under that limited scope of erection, improvement, expansion, and maintenance, which are you claiming CCW falls under?

I believe that the preamble is merely stating that if a local agency (city or county) builds and maintains an airport, they have the right to regulate all of the subparagraphs listed.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 11:21 PM
I believe that the preamble is merely stating that if a local agency (city or county) builds and maintains an airport, they have the right to regulate all of the subparagraphs listed.

Well, you Orange County boys, with all your unreasonable 12050 restrictions, had better pitch'in for a professional opinion on this matter, if you all will be allowed to keep them for a few more months. I'd be VERY surprised however to learn that the legislature has extended to airport authorities the power to over rule state penal code.

tango-52
08-01-2008, 6:09 AM
you Orange County boys

I'm in San Diego, where obtaining a CCW is difficult at best. Hopefully we can change that in 2010.

Liberty1
08-01-2008, 7:33 AM
Hopefully we can change that in 2010.

That, Sir, we can all agree upon!!!! Hope to see ya at the next SD Open Carry dinner or at least OCing after incorporation!