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freakshow10mm
07-30-2008, 9:16 PM
I have a question that makes the most sense to ask here. I'm a licensed firearm manufacturer and will be making 1911 type pistols in 10mm Auto. I have a thread on GT's 10 Ring for market research. The question came up regarding CA legality. I said I'd look into it.

Now, the product I have in mind is a Series 70 type with no FP safety. I've also heard of some "microstamping" law.

I need the nitty gritty on this stuff. Where can I look (hold my hand please) to find out what I have to do to pass the CA tests?

If it's financially feasible, I'll offer a CA-approved model. I will warn everyone: As a dealer I'm CA CFLC compliant and am trying to do my best to keep pumping guns into California.

However, as a manufacturer I'm a one man company just getting started and have little capital at hand. If it's too expensive for me to tool up or comply with CA stuff, I won't be offering a CA model.

As soon as it is financially possible I will offer CA approved guns, but I just don't want to get flamed for turning CA away if I have to. I'm 27yo with a 2yo son and am running a firearm business off of strictly cash on hand; no loans, no credit.

Thanks for any help you can offer. I appreciate it.

Adam

Josh3239
07-30-2008, 9:21 PM
I tried searching the internet for you and this was the only thing I found, hope it helps.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=81127

Scotty
07-30-2008, 9:21 PM
You will need to add a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect to the 1911 if you want to get it certified. So basically you are SOL on the California market.

Guntech
07-30-2008, 9:24 PM
Pistols, revolvers, and single shots. Michigan residents must have a purchase permit or Concealed Pistol License to purchase a handgun.

It says this on your site! is this true!? If it is Michigan needs more help than us!

ojisan
07-30-2008, 9:26 PM
Another business opportunity killed by PRK laws. : ((
Good luck and thank you for thinking of us!

ScottWerx LLC
web pending.

Librarian
07-30-2008, 9:30 PM
Big set of info at the CA-DOJ web site:

Try the Regulations link (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/), especially the lab/handgun certification (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter5.pdf) doc. That describes how the tests must be conducted.

Generally, to get on the Roster a semi-automatic handgun has to (1) have a magazine disconnect; (2) have a loaded chamber indicator; (3) pass the drop test and the firing test as specified.

Microstamping is for 2010, if then. Guns submitted for testing before 1 Jan 2010 do not need to have that.

Note that (d) Three handguns of each model to be tested shall be submitted to the DOJ-Certified Laboratory. That can be expensive for a small manufacturer.

sigsauer887
07-30-2008, 9:33 PM
Would you be willing to make a 1911 conversion kit for 10MM? Myself as well as others would buy in a heartbeat. No one makes conversions for the 10MM, would be a great idea, I think.

.223
07-30-2008, 9:42 PM
Unless you want to specifically target the LEO market with your 1911, you'll have to have the loaded chamber indicator and mag disconnect.

On another note, I want to offer my personal thanks for trying to work with us behind enemy lines.

ojisan
07-30-2008, 9:57 PM
I have a Delta Elite 10mm with a interchangeable .45 "upper". You do have to change the ejector to match the caliber used. Makes a nice combo! Also, you have to match 70s and 80s parts due to the FPB parts inside the 80s frame.
Maybe think about making the 10mm kits with the series 80 FPB hole in the slide so it can be used on all 70s and 80s? Only one part to stock when you are starting. Make 70s-only parts for the purists later ? Business is business... ; )

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn249/ojisan420/P7170056.jpg

Mssr. Eleganté
07-30-2008, 10:32 PM
There is always this exemption to the safe handgun roster/loaded chamber/mag safety requirements...

12133 (b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

You could make a "California" model that is over 10.5 inches long and has a SLED instead of a removable magazine. That means it would need to have close to a 7 inch barrel to get to the 10.5 inch length and the SLED would probably have to be held in by a screw or something.

But once your California customers took possession of the pistol, they could replace the barrel with a regular 5 incher and replace the SLED with a magazine.

I don't know if this extra effort would be worth it for you, but California is a huge market and many of us are prepared to pay a premium for stuff like this.

sevans
07-30-2008, 10:50 PM
Would you be willing to make a 1911 conversion kit for 10MM? Myself as well as others would buy in a heartbeat. No one makes conversions for the 10MM, would be a great idea, I think.

I believe Fusion Firearms still offers conversions to 10mm. I haven't used them but have heard good things.

freakshow10mm
07-30-2008, 11:24 PM
Thanks to everyone that replied. Gives me some stuff to look over tomorrow. It's about 2am eastern time and I'm finishing my beer and going to bed.

It says this on your site! is this true!? If it is Michigan needs more help than us!
Sorry to insult, but CA is more restrictive.

Common freaking out about Michigan. Let me explain: The local police department acts as the background check people for pistols (handguns), instead of NICS. The law requires an idiot test for firearm safety (70% score to pass; if you fail you should be beaten with a garden hose) and then a BG check done by the police. When you pass, they issue a purchase permit which is essentially a receipt showing that you are legal to possess a pistol. That is it, that's all the purchase permit is. Many people on forums blow it up to be more than what it really is. It tells the dealer "I passed a background check". That's it.

MI is shall issue CCW (which is why I moved here from Wisconsin 3 years ago), they call it a Concealed Pistol License (CPL). A CPL waives the need for a purchase permit. If someone doesn't have their carry permit, they need to show me a purchase permit to buy a handgun. If they have a CPL they just need to show me that and that exempts them from a background check. NICS doesn't do the background checks for MI pistols; only long guns. CPLs issued as of 11-22-2005 qualify as full NICS exceptions so those with CPLs issued on or after that date don't need a background check at all. My CPL was issued 9-29-2005 so I have to have a background check run on me for long guns but not pistols.


In MI, a pistol is any firearm that is 30 inches overall length but at least 26 inches. This is any firearm. If you have a Ruger Mini 14 with folding stock, the OAL is less than 30 inches but at least 26 inches, it is a pistol according to MI law and needs to be registered as a pistol. It is then subject to all CCW laws, so now you can carry it loaded on your person concealed or in your vehicle without a case.

Would you be willing to make a 1911 conversion kit for 10MM?
All that is needed is a 10mm upper (slide, barrel, internals) and a 10mm ejector. That is something anyone can buy from Fusion, Caspian, or someone else. Just have your local gunsmith fit it to your frame and you are set.

Unless you want to specifically target the LEO market with your 1911, you'll have to have the loaded chamber indicator and mag disconnect.
No, I will never, ever sell firearms or NFA firearms to any LE agency or armed state agency in CA. I will never service any firearm or NFA firearm for any LE agency or armed state agency in CA. Every gun I ship into California is a big F you!! to the California government. What do they want? No guns in CA. What hurts them most? Guns in CA. What do I do? Send guns to CA.

I got contacted by a fairly large LE agency in California to supply them with training ammunition (I also manufacture ammo). Turned them down. I said (paraphrased) "Have your state repeal a lot of their useless gun control laws and then we can talk." I turned down a contract that would have made me $50,000 profit per year (double my income of my day job) just to prove a point.

That being said, the LCI isn't too hard (a small hole in the barrel hood like most do anyways). It's the mag disconnect I'm unsure of how to go about doing that.

I'll keep doing my research and R&D. I'd love to offer even one model for CA.

Think I could get away with using something like one model but a vast amount of options? Say I submit a CA1911 model but you can have a 4.25, 5, or 6 inch slide/barrel, different sights, full dust cover to slide length or not, etc. Could that pass as one model or does each configuration count as a model? Is is my model designation or is there a statutory definition of model that's restrictive?

Librarian
07-30-2008, 11:40 PM
Your designation seems to be part of it - Springfield has a lot of models that way - but it looks like something like barrel length is going to be classified as a model-changer.

PC says 12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.
That provision lets you just pay the fee to get a model on the Roster, instead of having to test the model as well. So changes in "the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm." would appear to create a new gun requiring testing.

Anecdotes here suggest getting a LCI accepted is proving difficult in some cases; it would probably be valuable to talk to CA-DOJ directly on that point.

(BTW, isn't living on that little peninsula stuck out into Superior kinda cold in winter? I lived in Ontario a bit north of Laurium, and -30F was pretty normal; and we didn't get lake effect snow!)

bwiese
07-31-2008, 12:38 AM
You could make a "California" model that is over 10.5 inches long and has a SLED instead of a removable magazine. That means it would need to have close to a 7 inch barrel to get to the 10.5 inch length and the SLED would probably have to be held in by a screw or something.

But once your California customers took possession of the pistol, they could replace the barrel with a regular 5 incher and replace the SLED with a magazine.


Indeed this is true. How to meet the exemption per 12133PC:


use a cheap long bbl chambered in 22Short, WITH NO FEEDRAMP;
ensure min bbl length of 6" or more to achieve a min overall length of 10.5" (measured parallel to bore);
use a cheap stiff action spring;
use one of those blue training "filler" magazines;
use some kinda screw setup instead of mag catch to affix mag filler.

This parts combination renders firearm an exempt single-shot pistol does not requiring Rostering, drop test, etc.

- the slide will not cycle;
- the unramped bbl will not feed another round;
- the fixed nonmagazine filler does not allow auto ammo feed except manual load thru chamber;

Once the purchaser acquires, DROSes and takes possession of this exempt single-shot pistol after the 10 day wait, he is free to modifiy it into many other alternate legal forms (just no AWs w/threaded bbls or unconventional pistols with unrifled bbls or added buttstocks, NFA stuff etc.)

Note until uncertainty clears about some prefatory wording in 12125PC, single-shot firearms being imported into CA for resale as such should be imported into CA as 12133PC compliant single shot pistols (and not converted into single-shot status within CA by the receiving FFL). Pistols converted to exempt single-shot status for sale to another party without going thru PPT should be rendered as single-shots before transfer occurs.

klmmicro
08-01-2008, 6:44 AM
FS10MM: Been a while since I was on either CG or GT...just saw this thread. Thank you for thinking of us out here. It is the time of year again where I consider another purchase. I would gladly hand my dollars over for your product instead of the "larger guy". I know there are many hoops to jump through to service this state, but we are a very large market. My G20 needs a friend, I will wait and see how this plays out!

savageevo
08-01-2008, 8:09 AM
Hey freakshow, Listin to Bwiese advise. We calgunners trust him very highly. good luck on your business and when you do start to sell here don't forget a group buy for us calgunners.

tenpercentfirearms
08-01-2008, 9:01 AM
I got contacted by a fairly large LE agency in California to supply them with training ammunition (I also manufacture ammo). Turned them down. I said (paraphrased) "Have your state repeal a lot of their useless gun control laws and then we can talk." I turned down a contract that would have made me $50,000 profit per year (double my income of my day job) just to prove a point.

Slight thread hijack, but that wasn't smart. Until right now, no one knew about your big political statement. Unless you are Ronnie Barrett getting big time press over your big stand, did you change anything?

Second of all, what can an individual police department do about California law? Law enforcement enforces the laws, they do not make them. If you want to hold someone accountable for these silly laws, it has to be the legislature. And we the people are their boss.

In the grand scheme of things your stand lost you $50K a year and won't make a bit of a difference. You might feel better about it, but the agency found someone else who will take their business, no political corrections or consequences occurred, and you aren't even getting good press over it like Barrett received.

I would have been more impressed if you would have taken that money and invested it into newer and smarter ways to get more guns into California. Then you could have marketed it as, "I am using the state's money against them! The people who don't want you to have guns are paying me to help you get more guns."

In fact, the exact thing you told those cops is the exact thing so many people here hear on gunbroker. "Until you can turn your state around, we are not selling you anything." You just said it to cops, who don't directly make the law instead of to individuals, who just like cops, vote on the squirrels who do.

Back to the subject. You should import an exempt handgun with the long length and single shot. After the customer receives the pistol, they can then submit an order for a standard slide. If they return the slide that was sold with the pistol, they get a discount.

So in otherwords, you have a bunch of these slides made that really in a sense just become loaner or deposit slides that are then traded in for the high quality slides you really wanted to sell them. However, you never ever mention that is your intent. In fact, you tell me that sounds illegal to you and admonish me for suggesting such a thing.

Then you start marketing your single shot pistols and also sell the slides separately. Then you offer a trade in program. My old slide will give me a discount on my new slide I am ordering from you in a completely separate invoice on a completely separate day. Of course I have to get the pistol, DROS it, take possession of it, and then send back the old slide before you send me a new one. 100% legal and no intent to break the law.

randy
08-02-2008, 5:30 AM
If you are a firearms manufacturer contact the Blackstar rifle guy and see about building a CA compliant rifle that's been in the works for some time.

That will make a bigger splash and put more money in your pocket, than building AF1911 I don't care what caliber it is.

tenpercentfirearms
08-02-2008, 8:26 AM
If you are a firearms manufacturer contact the Blackstar rifle guy and see about building a CA compliant rifle that's been in the works for some time.

That will make a bigger splash and put more money in your pocket, than building AF1911 I don't care what caliber it is.

Personally, I don't think the Blackstar would make you much money. Guys don't want Californiafied AR15s. They want real AR15s. With MMGs, U15s, Bullet Buttons, and B15s that only cost a few bucks and can be removed should the ban be lifted or one moves out of state, why would you want to spend more on a rifle that might someday not be necessary and will be quite different than what everyone else has?

I sell AR15s every day so I believe I have a feel of what guys want out of a black rifle. I don't voice much oposition to the Blackstar around here because some members seem to think it is a great idea and would sell great. I respectfully disagree when it comes to the general population. Literally, I don't think they are going to buy it and I have no big plans to stock more than one out of my shop, if it ever gets to that point.

freakshow10mm
08-02-2008, 6:18 PM
Tenpercent, you're probably right about the ammo contract. I should have taken the profits and pumped more guns into CA. Learned my lesson.

If I do any AR15 stuff, I'll probably do lowers. If I read your FAQ correctly, any lower I make will be an OLL.

I'm going to start off with 10mm conversions for starters while I save some money and work on getting the California 10mm 1911s going.

dwtt
08-02-2008, 6:37 PM
Tenpercent, you're probably right about the ammo contract. I should have taken the profits and pumped more guns into CA. Learned my lesson.

If I do any AR15 stuff, I'll probably do lowers. If I read your FAQ correctly, any lower I make will be an OLL.

I'm going to start off with 10mm conversions for starters while I save some money and work on getting the California 10mm 1911s going.

Don't apologize to Wes, I think he's just a bit bent out of shape because he rides a scooter with a pink Off-List rifle. :)

Seriously, when the CA AR, now known as the Blackstar, was being developed by one of this forum's member, some of us chipped in some money to help see the project through. I can see others being willing to chip in some money to see a new 10mm 1911 come into CA. I would chip in to get a 10mm conversion kit that fits onto my Rock Island 1911. Anyway, there are enough people here who are willing to help out if it will result in another pistol option for us behind the iron curtain.

freakshow10mm
08-02-2008, 7:04 PM
I would chip in to get a 10mm conversion kit that fits onto my Rock Island 1911.
Something like that just needs a 10mm upper, barrel, internals and an extractor change. Also the slide needs to be fitted to the frame.

I don't know if CA prohibits direct shipments for gunsmithing. In other states if you send a gun to a gunsmith for repair or other work, the gunsmith (FFL) can ship overnight direct to you via UPS or FedEx.

One option I could do is to simply stock complete 10mm uppers and sell/send them to you, then have a local gunsmith fit the slide to frame and then you can blast away. All the other fitting will be done. Something like this will run about $400-425 shipped, plus whatever sights you want on the slide (sight installation is free as the cuts will already be made. If you want a complete swap as in don't want .45 anymore, I'd probably give a little credit on the trade in upper. I'm still working out details on this, so don't hold me to anything.

This might be a better option to start with as it's cheaper for me (and you) and is less hands on so it's easier to keep stock on hand.

Right now I'm rebuilding my Kimber Pro Carry 10mm from a 4" bull barrel upper to a 4.25" bushing barrel upper. Hot damn I love the 10mm. I'd like to get a hold of someone that can make aluminum frames for me so I can make 10mm Commander 10mm 1911s out of them.

Here's my Pro Carry 10mm before I sold the upper. Will look just like this, only a bushing barrel 4.25" upper with hard chrome finish and the lower will be bobtailed and re-anodized (it's aluminum alloy).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Pro%20Carry%2010mm%20Project/DSC02372.jpg

Guntech
08-02-2008, 7:31 PM
Sorry to insult, but CA is more restrictive.

Common freaking out about Michigan. Let me explain: The local police department acts as the background check people for pistols (handguns), instead of NICS. The law requires an idiot test for firearm safety (70% score to pass; if you fail you should be beaten with a garden hose) and then a BG check done by the police. When you pass, they issue a purchase permit which is essentially a receipt showing that you are legal to possess a pistol. That is it, that's all the purchase permit is. Many people on forums blow it up to be more than what it really is. It tells the dealer "I passed a background check". That's it.

MI is shall issue CCW (which is why I moved here from Wisconsin 3 years ago), they call it a Concealed Pistol License (CPL). A CPL waives the need for a purchase permit. If someone doesn't have their carry permit, they need to show me a purchase permit to buy a handgun. If they have a CPL they just need to show me that and that exempts them from a background check. NICS doesn't do the background checks for MI pistols; only long guns. CPLs issued as of 11-22-2005 qualify as full NICS exceptions so those with CPLs issued on or after that date don't need a background check at all. My CPL was issued 9-29-2005 so I have to have a background check run on me for long guns but not pistols.


In MI, a pistol is any firearm that is 30 inches overall length but at least 26 inches. This is any firearm. If you have a Ruger Mini 14 with folding stock, the OAL is less than 30 inches but at least 26 inches, it is a pistol according to MI law and needs to be registered as a pistol. It is then subject to all CCW laws, so now you can carry it loaded on your person concealed or in your vehicle without a case.

Wow carrying a Mini-14 huh? Sounds like Georgia aside from the Police issued permit. Except you can carry a shotgun on MARTA in Georgia

tenpercentfirearms
08-02-2008, 10:30 PM
If I do any AR15 stuff, I'll probably do lowers. If I read your FAQ correctly, any lower I make will be an OLL.

As long as you don't make the make and model number one of the listed guns. You would also have bigger issues with the parent companies for copyright infringement as well, so basically, yes, anything you make is off list and legal to import in California.

I kind of learned that no one really cares about more lowers. Unless you make enough of them to get them to guys reasonably cheaper than what they can get them now, it is just another lower. I would think the handgun thing would be where some good money is.

I do believe we can send our handguns to you to gunsmith and you can ship them back direct. Bill Wiese would know more about it as far as taking a approved handgun for sale and altering it to not be rostered anymore and then ship it back. I am pretty sure it is lawful as long as it is an existing gun already in the state and it is shipped back to the owner.

ojisan
08-02-2008, 10:49 PM
Leave Series 80 safety parts in if that's how you get it. Conversion should have this. If all the approved safeties are still there, then not "off roster"?
Just a caliber change then? Anything in the laws that prohibits caliber changes or slide replacements? Spare parts purchases and installations to assure they function "safely"? Glock .40 to .357 Sig conversions are OK?
Then again, I have recently learned here that potato guns are illegal,and I have to have a LE approved annual permit to shoot BB guns in my own backyard... :shrug:

Librarian
08-03-2008, 12:24 AM
Leave Series 80 safety parts in if that's how you get it. Conversion should have this. If all the approved safeties are still there, then not "off roster"?

Not relevant: manufacturer has to submit his own guns; there are no generic "Series 80 1911" models one can claim similarity to.

Just a caliber change then? Anything in the laws that prohibits caliber changes or slide replacements? Spare parts purchases and installations to assure they function "safely"? Glock .40 to .357 Sig conversions are OK?

All good, so long as it's originally sold as submitted to the Roster, or it comes into CA to a LEO and is resold PPT. Repair and/or modification is not addressed.

An especially tricky people, these Calgunners....

freakshow10mm
08-03-2008, 8:11 AM
so basically, yes, anything you make is off list and legal to import in California.
Great.

I kind of learned that no one really cares about more lowers. Unless you make enough of them to get them to guys reasonably cheaper than what they can get them now, it is just another lower. I would think the handgun thing would be where some good money is.
Handguns would be where the money is, but I can do AR15 lowers for $100 shipped. That ain't a special, that's an every day price. ;) I should have a few in stock soon.