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View Full Version : A twist on a parent to son gift and fed requirements?


hawk1
07-29-2008, 11:31 AM
If a person traveled out of state for a family visit and was gifted a handgun or two (no AW's) from his parents what are his federal requirements and how are they met? Can the son carry the handgun back to California with nothing further being done? For subsequent delivery to his FFL by the son only to satisfy the feds? Do the parents ship the handgun to the sons FFL to meet the fed requirements thus also satisfying California DOJ and no Intrafamilial Report filed by the son?

hawk1
07-29-2008, 11:40 AM
That does make the most sense. Just not certain.

Ding126
07-29-2008, 11:41 AM
I would think you could carry them back to Ca. But in CA you would / should register them with the DOJ or take them to a local FFL and go through the waiting period.

I think the important issue here is that they are registered to you.

You would not want to have a pistol in your possession and it not be registered to you. That becomes a felony.

I'm sure some more educated people will chime in

Ding126
07-29-2008, 11:44 AM
I read some where on the DOJ site, that if I moved back/ into Ca with my firearms.( pistols ) I have 60 days to register them with the state. I think the DOJ has a form on their web site.

hawk1
07-29-2008, 11:47 AM
I read some where on the DOJ site, that if I moved back/ into Ca with my firearms.( pistols ) I have 60 days to register them with the state. I think the DOJ has a form on their web site.

Yes they do. It's this one.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf

I'm not concerned so much with the DOJ as I know that the above form can be filled out and sent in to satisfy them.
Really more with the feds and can the son carry the gift back for delivery to his FFL if need be?

leelaw
07-29-2008, 11:52 AM
The firearms must be shipped to the son's FFL. The FFL will transfer them to the son via the "exempt pistol" choice on the DROS entry.

It is illegal for you to bring them back across state lines without an intermediary FFL.

leelaw
07-29-2008, 11:55 AM
I would think you could carry them back to Ca. But in CA you would / should register them with the DOJ or take them to a local FFL and go through the waiting period.


He may not carry them back across state lines.

I think the important issue here is that they are registered to you.

Nope, that's not the issue. The issue is how they come to be transfered to the son.

You would not want to have a pistol in your possession and it not be registered to you. That becomes a felony.

That is incorrect. If you are illegally carrying a loaded pistol and it is not registered to you, it is a felony. Simple possession of a pistol unregistered to you is not a crime of itself (otherwise everyone who purchased a pistol before 1990 would be felons!).

If I were to borrow a friend's pistol for a trip to the range, it is legal for me to transport it locked and unloaded, use it at the range, and transport back locked and unloaded, as long as I have an HSC and am not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Ding126
07-29-2008, 11:59 AM
The firearms must be shipped to the son's FFL. The FFL will transfer them to the son via the "exempt pistol" choice on the DROS entry.

It is illegal for you to bring them back across state lines without an intermediary FFL.

So your saying I cannot bring my own pistols with me when I physically drive into CA? Who's to say I'm not in town for a competition or show. Shipping by mail or UPS is one thing..and needs to go to an FFL. But there is no one to stop me from putting the pistol in my check in luggage and flying to any state.

Then why would the DOJ offer a form on line to register your pistols??

So I'm a bit confused...someone please explain

leelaw
07-29-2008, 12:07 PM
So your saying I cannot bring my own pistols with me when I physically drive into CA? Who's to say I'm not in town for a competition or show. Shipping by mail or UPS is one thing..and needs to go to an FFL. But there is no one to stop me from putting the pistol in my check in luggage and flying to any state.

Then why would the DOJ offer a form on line to register your pistols??

So I'm a bit confused...someone please explain

No, that is not what I am saying.

The pistol in this scenario is not owned by the person who would be transporting it across state lines. Going to another state, to pick up a gift pistol, and bringing it back is a federal crime. The pistol must go through an FFL, and be transfered to the son in this case.

The DOJ has many forms of registration, depending on certain cases.

If you LIVED out of state, and are MOVING into California, then they have a form to register your pistols for that.

If you get a pistol from a family member who resides within California, who gifts it to you, then there is a form for that.

If you build a pistol from an <80% frame and want to register it, there is a form for that.

None of these forms cover the federal requirement that an intrafamilial transfer across state lines must go through an FFL.

Ding126
07-29-2008, 12:15 PM
I kind of understand now..thanks...Here is where I'm coming from. I live in XY and I buy a pistol from a Private party...My state law allows PPT with out a FFL.
We exchange money,,what ever and I now am the owner of the pistol.
6month, 2 yrs later I move to CA. I consider the pistol mine..but there is no record other than the original purchaser from 5 yrs ago..let say now I'm the 3rd owner.

So who's to say, who's to know when I come into CA that its not mine. So I bring the pistol home and fill out the DOJ form

leelaw
07-29-2008, 12:52 PM
I kind of understand now..thanks...Here is where I'm coming from. I live in XY and I buy a pistol from a Private party...My state law allows PPT with out a FFL.
We exchange money,,what ever and I now am the owner of the pistol.
6month, 2 yrs later I move to CA. I consider the pistol mine..but there is no record other than the original purchaser from 5 yrs ago..let say now I'm the 3rd owner.

So who's to say, who's to know when I come into CA that its not mine. So I bring the pistol home and fill out the DOJ form

If you lived in XY state and FFL-less PPTs are legal, then they're legal. The gun is yours.

If, at a later time, you move into California, then you are required to register the handguns with DOJ wiithin some number of days. I think it's 30 days.

The history of transfers in the other state do not matter - if you are the legal owner of the pistol, then you're the owner of the pistol. Most states do not have handgun registration, but California does.

If you vacation out of state and return, then it does not fall under the import exemption reserved for when you move into California.

If you already have residence in California, and you return and try to register a handgun which you were gifted out of state, by using the aforementioned moving exemption, then it'll be fairly easy to prove that you transfered it illegally.

Ding126
07-29-2008, 1:01 PM
If you lived in XY state and FFL-less PPTs are legal, then they're legal. The gun is yours.


If you already have residence in California, and you return and try to register a handgun which you were gifted out of state, by using the aforementioned moving exemption, then it'll be fairly easy to prove that you transfered it illegally.

Ahhh now that makes sense...You guys are the best. Someone always knows the answers

Thanks Leelaw..I feel much better now.

drummerdude1188
07-29-2008, 2:38 PM
does the contents of this thread apply to long guns as well as hand guns or just hand guns? Im just woundering about the gifting of a long gun and the crossing of statelines with a long gun back into ca.

bwiese
07-29-2008, 4:18 PM
does the contents of this thread apply to long guns as well as hand guns or just hand guns? Im just woundering about the gifting of a long gun and the crossing of statelines with a long gun back into ca.

All guns.

Librarian
07-29-2008, 8:34 PM
Let's see if I can summarize:
If you live in California, AND you are not licensed, then

you cannot legally buy or receive a gun out of California and bring it back here
you CAN legally buy guns from a willing out of state FFL who ships the gun to a willing California FFL, who will do a standard DROS transfer.
an non-licensed person out of California cannot legally sell to an non-licensed California resident
you CAN legally buy guns from an out of state non-licensed individual who ships the gun to a willing California FFL, who will do a standard DROS transfer.

"Sell" is short for "transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person "

California, since 1991, has required that transfers go through FFLs (in PC 12070). Hold that thought. (There are a few exceptions - ignore those for now.)

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (a)(3) says a non-licensed individual may not bring a gun acquired outside one's state of residence back to that state of residence. It's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen.

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller lives. Again, it's a 5-year gig in the Federal Pen.

FedLaw 18 USC 922 (b)(3) has an exception for long guns, but says except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States
Remember California PC 12070 from above? California requires the transfer to go through the California-licensed FFL.

An unlicensed California resident CAN buy guns out of state, from an FFL if the out of state FFL is willing -

the gun MUST be sent to a California-licensed FFL for DROS and the usual wait;
the unlicensed California resident MAY NOT take possession of the firearm and bring it back to California; s/he MUST receive it at the California FFL.


Since that covers about 9 out of 10 of these questions, I'll do the exceptions last.

Curio and Relic is a kind of license - if you have a C&R license, your rules are different.
FOR IMMEDIATE FAMILY (grandparent/parent to/from child/grandchild) interstate inheritance of long guns is exempt - Feds say all inheritance is exempt, and CA doesn't care about papering long guns in Intrafamilial transfers.
FOR IMMEDIATE FAMILY interstate inheritance of handguns is exempt from the FFL - Feds say so and CA allows the Intrafamilial transfer form
For Rifles and Shotguns 50 years old and older, CA exempts the transfer from the FFL requirement, so if it's legal to buy a rifle/shotgun that old from an FFL in some other state, it will be legal to bring those home to California - not using the FFL is following CA law.


There is no such thing as a California PPT with a California buyer and an out of state seller - 18 USC 822 (a)(5) says no. So if a friend from NV wants to sell you a gun, both of you go to a willing California FFL and do a sale - but it will not be a PC 12082 PPT.

The Feds make no exception for gifts; California does, for within California.

The Feds do not have the concept of 'immediate family' that California does.

Remember that handguns purchased from out of state, routed through a California FFL, must be on the California Roster, or the California FFL may not deliver it to the buyer.

Note the repeated use of the expression willing FFL; California FFls need not accept out of state transfers. That's a business decision, not a legal requirement.

Hopi
07-29-2008, 8:45 PM
Would an AR lower receiver that was logged and sold as a pistol in another state be eligible for grandfather to grandchild transfer to a CA resident if it were off-safe-list and stripped?

Mssr. Eleganté
07-29-2008, 8:58 PM
FedLaw 18 USC 922 (b)(3) has an exception for long guns, but says

...except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States...

Remember California PC 12070 from above? California requires the transfer to go through the California-licensed FFL.

But also remember that CPC 12078(t)(2) has an exception for C&R long guns that are at least 50 years old.

So if you combine the Federal "rifle or shotgun bought from an out of state FFL at his licensed premises" exception with the California "C&R long gun over 50 years old" exception, you find that it is legal for an unlicensed Californian to buy a C&R rifle or shotgun that is over 50 years old from an out of state FFL if the purchase takes place at the out of state FFL's licensed premises.

Just thought I'd make this even more confusing. :D

Librarian
07-29-2008, 9:21 PM
But also remember that CPC 12078(t)(2) has an exception for C&R long guns that are at least 50 years old.

So if you combine the Federal "rifle or shotgun bought from an out of state FFL at his licensed premises" exception with the California "C&R long gun over 50 years old" exception, you find that it is legal for an unlicensed Californian to buy a C&R rifle or shotgun that is over 50 years old from an out of state FFL if the purchase takes place at the out of state FFL's licensed premises.

Just thought I'd make this even more confusing. :D
And you did a good job!

No, I just keep forgetting that works interstate - I remember it for in-state. I'll add that as the last exception.

drclark
07-29-2008, 9:29 PM
Is there a legal requirement to bring your guns into the state a certain amount of time after you move here. I understand that you have 30 (or 60) days to register them from the time the guns are moved into the state. But what if I have lived here for several years and then decide to have the guns I owned prior to my move to CA shipped in from my previous place of residence?

Example, I moved here from my home state where I previously lived with my parents 13 years ago. Lets say, I had left some of my guns at my parents house since I was unsure about CA gun laws or had intended to move back alot sooner and didn't want to deal with the hassle of paperwork. If my parents then die, or for whatever reason no longer want to keep my guns at their house, could I then "finish moving my posessions" into the state and register them within the 60 day time limit? If so, would there be a legal requirement to somehow prove ownership of said guns prior to moving? Would I need reciepts or a bill of sale if some of said guns were obtained with a FFL-less PPT prior to moving to CA?

Another example would be if I maintained my previous residence in my prior state (renting it to family) and left some guns there before moving to CA. I later decided to sell my previous residence, could I then legally "finish moving" all guns along with other posessions that I had acquired previous to moving to CA? (I have a buddy in this situation)

drc

odysseus
07-29-2008, 9:42 PM
That is incorrect. If you are illegally carrying a loaded pistol and it is not registered to you, it is a felony. Simple possession of a pistol unregistered to you is not a crime of itself (otherwise everyone who purchased a pistol before 1990 would be felons!).

Wait - that confuses me. Carrying concealed (assumed) a loaded pistol is not necessarily a felony, and is usually first a misdemeanor. However you are saying if it is not registered to you it is a felony. However their are tons of people who have pistold before 1990, so those pistols aren't "registered". So if one of them carried illegally, it is a felony - but if you had a post 1990 purchase it is not?

.

leelaw
07-29-2008, 9:52 PM
Wait - that confuses me. Carrying concealed (assumed) a loaded pistol is not necessarily a felony, and is usually first a misdemeanor. However you are saying if it is not registered to you it is a felony. However their are tons of people who have pistold before 1990, so those pistols aren't "registered". So if one of them carried illegally, it is a felony - but if you had a post 1990 purchase it is not?

.

I would love to get a clear answer on that, but I never have...

I'm sure it would be a felony arrest, but if the unlawful CCWer were to present paperwork (4473) showing that he owned the firearm, it would be bumped to a misdemeanor quite quickly.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-29-2008, 10:01 PM
Is there a legal requirement to bring your guns into the state a certain amount of time after you move here. I understand that you have 30 (or 60) days to register them from the time the guns are moved into the state. But what if I have lived here for several years and then decide to have the guns I owned prior to my move to CA shipped in from my previous place of residence?

Example, I moved here from my home state where I previously lived with my parents 13 years ago. Lets say, I had left some of my guns at my parents house since I was unsure about CA gun laws or had intended to move back alot sooner and didn't want to deal with the hassle of paperwork. If my parents then die, or for whatever reason no longer want to keep my guns at their house, could I then "finish moving my posessions" into the state and register them within the 60 day time limit? If so, would there be a legal requirement to somehow prove ownership of said guns prior to moving? Would I need reciepts or a bill of sale if some of said guns were obtained with a FFL-less PPT prior to moving to CA?

Another example would be if I maintained my previous residence in my prior state (renting it to family) and left some guns there before moving to CA. I later decided to sell my previous residence, could I then legally "finish moving" all guns along with other posessions that I had acquired previous to moving to CA? (I have a buddy in this situation)

drc

Check out this thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=89067

It should answer your questions.

AJAX22
07-29-2008, 10:02 PM
There is no requirement that you store your posessions in the state in which you presently reside.

A number of members have firearms stored in other states.

The real question in these scenario is, what constitues a state of residency in the eyes of the feds?

How long do you have to be a resident to get a gun?

Glock_XXI
07-30-2008, 11:05 AM
So would this work in reverse?

Let's say I want to give my Dad a pistol I have purchased here in CA, but he lives in another free-er state? Would this have to go thru 2 FFL's mine and his?

Librarian
07-30-2008, 12:26 PM
So would this work in reverse?

Let's say I want to give my Dad a pistol I have purchased here in CA, but he lives in another free-er state? Would this have to go thru 2 FFL's mine and his?

His only. His FFL might not care to receive a handgun from a non-FFL, but that's business, not law.

Glock_XXI
07-30-2008, 2:16 PM
His only. His FFL might not care to receive a handgun from a non-FFL, but that's business, not law.


Thank you for your reply, so if I understand this correctly could I bypass the FFL's and take it to him directly on a future trip there? Would that be ok?

Librarian
07-30-2008, 3:07 PM
Thank you for your reply, so if I understand this correctly could I bypass the FFL's and take it to him directly on a future trip there? Would that be ok?

No - he has to receive it through an FFL in his state of residency. If the FFL were willing, you and your father could go to the FFL in the other state, and do the transfer there.

It is not law that such shipment must be from FFL to FFL, it just may be a business decision made by the FFL. Have your father call around to see what different shops may want; be sure to explain "My son from California wants to give me a gun as a present." - the FFL needs to understand it's an interstate transfer.

When you come back here, you may want to file a No Longer in Possession (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/NLIP0308.pdf) form.

Glock_XXI
07-30-2008, 3:27 PM
Thank You Librarian for the clarification. I always thought guns could move up and down the family tree, just not side to side. I guess it makes it different when it involves crossing state lines.

Librarian
07-30-2008, 4:18 PM
Thank You Librarian for the clarification. I always thought guns could move up and down the family tree, just not side to side. I guess it makes it different when it involves crossing state lines.
Yes, it does. It's just California that makes something out of immediate family; the Feds don't have the concept in the gun laws.