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Kestryll
07-29-2008, 12:08 PM
Just to clarify a comment made by Gene in the Open Carry thread, carrying an unloaded handgun locked in one of these (see links below) with a loaded mag strapped in to the holder would be legal according to the legal definition of 'Loaded' per Court ruling.
Is this correct?

http://www.desantisholster.com/n15.html
http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23863/catid/14/Dillon__039_s___039_Plan_B__039__Day_Planner

tombinghamthegreat
07-29-2008, 12:15 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

This should answer your question. If its locked in a container, unloaded with the mag right next to it's legal.

Kestryll
07-29-2008, 12:25 PM
That's what I thought but due to a near fatal brain fart I couldn't remember nor recall where I had seen the info. Thanks!

I think I like the Dillon Day Planner as it has a slot to hold a print out if Librarian's thread with all the pertinent laws.

Saigon1965
07-29-2008, 12:31 PM
GB on the Dillon guys?

hoffmang
07-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Those are sexy and quite legal with a padlock through the zipper holes and the firearm unloaded - loaded magazine right there.

-Gene

Kestryll
07-29-2008, 1:00 PM
What the heck, I ordered the Dillon one, I'll let you know what it's like when it comes in.

MudCamper
07-29-2008, 1:27 PM
I love the name, "Plan B"! Classic.

Technically, to carry concealed, when not in a vehicle, it not only needs to be in a locked case, but you need to be going to or from one of the 20 listed places in 12026.2. However, home and work are 2 of those places.

Liberty1
07-29-2008, 5:35 PM
I use a bagmaster "large pistol belt pouch" on occasion. It can accomodate a small luggage lock. And since you wear it, it won't get left behind some where.

http://www.bagmaster.com/

trashman
07-29-2008, 9:01 PM
Tres cool. Too bad I don't own any of the models listed in the fit chart. Always wanted a Kahr, now I guess this is as good a reason as any...
:43:
--Neill

WokMaster1
07-29-2008, 10:50 PM
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=49

A bit mall ninja-ish but a combo lock & mags separate my best timing is 3.5 seconds, mostly 4 secs. But I'm working on it.

bigstick61
07-30-2008, 1:51 AM
Would a locked backpack be legal for this form of carry?

tombinghamthegreat
07-30-2008, 2:04 AM
Would a locked backpack be legal for this form of carry?

Yes since the gun would be fully inclosed and locked. Also new member search on the other laws to make sure you do not make any mistakes, the cops can be unforgiving.;) I was just at shooters paridise and seen someone with have his handgun in a backpack with a lock on it.

smogcity
07-30-2008, 7:02 AM
I love the name, "Plan B"! Classic.

Technically, to carry concealed, when not in a vehicle, it not only needs to be in a locked case, but you need to be going to or from one of the 20 listed places in 12026.2. However, home and work are 2 of those places.

What are the 20 listed places? Is carrying locked/unloaded in a maxpedition fat boy around with you all day (ie home to office to lunch to drycleaner to drugstore etc) ok?

MudCamper
07-30-2008, 9:29 AM
What are the 20 listed places? Is carrying locked/unloaded in a maxpedition fat boy around with you all day (ie home to office to lunch to drycleaner to drugstore etc) ok?

The places are all things like gunstores and gunshows and shooting ranges and whatnot. It's all in 12026.2. But like I said, between home and place of business is included (12026.2(4) I believe).

In answer to your question, technically, no. But,

"(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances."

So what does "reasonably necessary under the circumstances" mean? The dry cleaner or drug store on the way home seems reasonable to me. And, like any attorney will tell you, "Don't answer any police questions, for any reason, under any circumstances. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)"

mrjones98
07-31-2008, 8:26 AM
What the heck, I ordered the Dillon one, I'll let you know what it's like when it comes in.

I was doing some quick searching and a lock like this would seem ideal if it were smaller:

Push button padlock (http://www.allpadlocks.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X380790;search=35048;searc h=Imported%20%23%3A%2035048;limit=product;v=2.0;pa th=42;layout=system:layout_0100.xsl)

http://www.allpadlocks.com/cgi-bin/ThumbGen.cgi?location=D300003%2FX380790%2Fimages%2 Fcatalog%2F35048.jpg;width=200;height=200;pos=cent er;type=local

Though with bigger buttons would be better.

mrjones98
07-31-2008, 8:49 AM
Doesn't section 12026.1 provide a blanket exception to 12025 if it's locked, etc.? I know the wording isn't as explicit as 12026.2 but it seems weird to have both sections if 12026.1 doesn't really do anything. Not that any of the laws make sense anyways.

The places are all things like gunstores and gunshows and shooting ranges and whatnot. It's all in 12026.2. But like I said, between home and place of business is included (12026.2(4) I believe).

In answer to your question, technically, no. But,

"(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances."

So what does "reasonably necessary under the circumstances" mean? The dry cleaner or drug store on the way home seems reasonable to me. And, like any attorney will tell you, "Don't answer any police questions, for any reason, under any circumstances. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik)"

MudCamper
07-31-2008, 9:10 AM
Doesn't section 12026.1 provide a blanket exception to 12025 if it's locked, etc.? I know the wording isn't as explicit as 12026.2 but it seems weird to have both sections if 12026.1 doesn't really do anything. Not that any of the laws make sense anyways.

12026.1 is when in a motor vehicle only.

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state … from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following: … (1) through (20) omitted ...

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 9:25 AM
12026.1 is when in a motor vehicle only.

12026.1. (a)
...provided that the following applies to the firearm:

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

How do you interpret this? Would it cover any lawful activity provided one was going directly to or from any motor vehicle, such as dining out, shopping, or a hike in the wilderness? And the lawful purpose could be for self-defense or to prevent a theft if it was left in the vehicle.

Decoligny
07-31-2008, 11:33 AM
How do you interpret this?

(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

Would it cover any lawful activity provided one was going directly to or from any motor vehicle, such as dining out, shopping, or a hike in the wilderness? And the lawful purpose could be for self-defense or to prevent a theft if it was left in the vehicle.

I believe that it would only cover the carrying from and the carrying to, not the while at. Let's say you stop at your favorite restaurant. You would be covered walking from the car all the way to the table. I don't see it covering you while you are sitting there eating your dinner, as you are neither coming directly from or going directly to any motor vehicle. I think you would be legal again as soon as you stood up from the table to leave, because you are now going directly to "any motor vehicle".

Liberty1
07-31-2008, 11:36 AM
I believe that it would only cover the carrying from and the carrying to, not the while at. Let's say you stop at your favorite restaurant. You would be covered walking from the car all the way to the table. I don't see it covering you while you are sitting there eating your dinner, as you are neither coming from or going to any motor vehicle. I think you would be legal again as soon as you stood up from the table to leave, because you are now going directly to "any motor vehicle".

Your not including the word "for" in your analisis. "For a lawful purpose" does need to also have meaning or to/from then means nothing.

Decoligny
07-31-2008, 11:41 AM
Your not including the word "for" in your analisis. "For a lawful purpose" does need to also have meaning or to/from then means nothing.

That is a good possibility as I am currently juggling several things here at work and only typing when I get a minute or two to breath between putting out fires.

Ironchef
07-31-2008, 12:41 PM
"For a lawful purpose" to me kind of sounds like a lazy way of saying "anywhere you can legally have a gun" as used in open carry. Of course there's no open carry laws or descriptions, just concealed. Maybe this concealed version of "lawful purposes" is what the open carry definition would be..ie, 1000' from schools, not in gov buildings, etc?

Just a thought.. probably doesn't make much sense.

ChibiPaw
07-31-2008, 4:03 PM
After looking at the two cases. Dillion one looks like one would put a lock between the two zippers rings. From the looks of it, its made of soft fabric. Is it still legal if you can get to the pistol without disengaging the lock?

The second one seems like you can lock the spine to the zipper.. I would imagine that wouldnt be an issue..

hoffmang
07-31-2008, 10:11 PM
Locking two zippers together should well be enough. It's probably not ok if and only if you can easily remove the firearm with the lock on and without tearing it.

-Gene

GuyW
08-01-2008, 11:43 AM
Locking two zippers together should well be enough. It's probably not ok if and only if you can easily remove the firearm with the lock on and without tearing it.

-Gene

Some nylon zippers are pretty weak, and can be ripped open without use of the zipper, especially when worn. In an excess of caution, I'd want a container that I was d@#$ sure couldn't be open by some buffed (or non-buffed) officer...

sorensen440
08-15-2008, 11:59 PM
Ok Im getting a bit confused here
Can I legally go for a walk with the dog having my unloaded firearm in a locked bag?

MudCamper
08-16-2008, 1:12 AM
Ok Im getting a bit confused here
Can I legally go for a walk with the dog having my unloaded firearm in a locked bag?

Assuming the bag qualifies as a locked container per 12026.2, the answer is still no, unless you are walking to/from one of the 20 listed places in 12026.2, and then the anser is yes.

hoffmang
08-16-2008, 11:27 AM
I think a DA would have a very hard time winning the argument that he's not walking both to and from a listed place.

-Gene

otteray
08-16-2008, 11:42 AM
I think a DA would have a very hard time winning the argument that he's not walking both to and from a listed place.

-Gene

As in: walking the dog around the block. The starting and ending points are the same, right?

hoffmang
08-16-2008, 12:18 PM
Yes but realize that this is more about the law being relatively hard to enforce and less about that being an actual permitted purpose.

Let's just say that one should not worry too much about appropriately carrying an unloaded handgun in a locked container.

-Gene

camillus522
08-16-2008, 8:14 PM
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=49

A bit mall ninja-ish but a combo lock & mags separate my best timing is 3.5 seconds, mostly 4 secs. But I'm working on it.

I have had one of these for about 8 months ( I have CCW, so no lock)
it's great and I even carry in very non-friendly environs. with this and no ill looks. I adjusted the strap so that when over my shoulder and torso cross wise the back zipper is right at my wrist level, so I can unzip and draw without leaning, with practice I can unzip and draw in less than a second.

tombinghamthegreat
08-16-2008, 11:55 PM
Yes but realize that this is more about the law being relatively hard to enforce and less about that being an actual permitted purpose.

Let's just say that one should not worry too much about appropriately carrying an unloaded handgun in a locked container.

-Gene

So would "guitar parties" with long guns, would 12026.2 come into play or does it only apply to handguns? And since long guns can't be concealed according to the law would having a shotgun or a kel tek rifle hidden in a jacket be legal?

MudCamper
08-17-2008, 10:45 AM
So would "guitar parties" with long guns, would 12026.2 come into play or does it only apply to handguns? And since long guns can't be concealed according to the law would having a shotgun or a kel tek rifle hidden in a jacket be legal?

12025 prohibits carrying handguns concealed. 12026.x are exemptions to 12025. There is no California law that prohibits concealed long guns.

sorensen440
08-17-2008, 11:21 AM
would having a shotgun or a kel tek rifle hidden in a jacket be legal?

Legal but a bad idea imo

AC Gould
08-17-2008, 12:02 PM
Is there a legal definition of a 'lock' ?? Wonder if the perforated Zip-Ties (the kind you can break open with your hands ) would would be suitable as a 'lock'.

movie zombie
08-17-2008, 12:27 PM
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=49

A bit mall ninja-ish but a combo lock & mags separate my best timing is 3.5 seconds, mostly 4 secs. But I'm working on it.

i can't thank you enough for the info on this product! i've been looking for something besides a belt and holster to carry my j-fame snubbie when i'm out hiking. as long as i stay on our property i can conceal carry loaded. while there aren't a lot of hikers up here, i don't want to advertise that i'm carrying whether or not i'm on my own property. this bag won't advertise GUN should i run into anyone. it looks like i can also remove the ammo and put it in its own compartment and figure a lock for a compartment with the gun....when i cross over the property line.

movie zombie

MudCamper
08-17-2008, 12:42 PM
Is there a legal definition of a 'lock' ?? Wonder if the perforated Zip-Ties (the kind you can break open with your hands ) would would be suitable as a 'lock'.

Read the PC:

As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.