PDA

View Full Version : Hi-cap vs permanently altered mag question....


sfwdiy
07-28-2008, 11:44 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the State of California has never actually defined the meaning of "permanently altered" in reference to standard capacaty mags that have been modified to hold ten rounds, yes?

Also, if one owns a pre-ban standard capacity mag, say a 30 round AR mag, one can replace every single part of the magazine so that no original parts are left and this is still considered a repair of the original magazine under state law, as long as the parts changed out are no longer useable, correct?

If this second statement is true, wouldn't that make it impossible to "permanently alter" a magazine, seeing as how you can just crush the mag, replace the entire damn thing with a parts kit and still have what the law considers to be the exact same original magazine? :confused:

Am I way out in left field here?

--Ben

Josh3239
07-29-2008, 1:13 AM
Everything looks right except the last part was a little confusing, what are you trying to ask?

aplinker
07-29-2008, 1:25 AM
Yes, you're fine and right.

No one says laws have to make logical sense, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the State of California has never actually defined the meaning of "permanently altered" in reference to standard capacaty mags that have been modified to hold ten rounds, yes?

Also, if one owns a pre-ban standard capacity mag, say a 30 round AR mag, one can replace every single part of the magazine so that no original parts are left and this is still considered a repair of the original magazine under state law, as long as the parts changed out are no longer useable, correct?

If this second statement is true, wouldn't that make it impossible to "permanently alter" a magazine, seeing as how you can just crush the mag, replace the entire damn thing with a parts kit and still have what the law considers to be the exact same original magazine? :confused:

Am I way out in left field here?

--Ben

thefifthspeed
07-29-2008, 2:10 AM
It's not impossible to permanetly alter a mag. The people doing this are the ones who are playing by the rules and want to either aquire a standard capacity mag for a gun that doesn't have any 10/10 mags or for people who like the looks of the standard cap mags.

I'm also trying to understand what you mean in the 3rd segement but if I understand right if someone were to permanently mod a mag to hold 10 rounds why would they crush it? They would have to start over again, and if it did get destroyed you couldn't replace the parts to make it into a high cap you would have to make or order a new one.

sfwdiy
07-29-2008, 5:48 AM
What I'm getting at is this: Say you own a 10/30 magazine, we'll call it "magazine A." Say you also own a parts kit for the exact same type of magazine. The parts kit has not been modified to 10 rounds.

If you were to completely destroy all the parts of "magazine A," then assemble your parts kit into a new magazine, you could claim, according to the law, that you do not have a new magazine, you have simply rebuilt "magazine A." Any rational person would tell you that your assembled parts kit would be a totally new "magazine B," but the law views them as the same thing.

That's why it's perfectly legal to "repair" a pre-ban standard capacity magazine by ordering a completely new parts kit, assembling it into a completely new magazine, then trash the old mag.

According to this legal thinking, that would make it impossible to permanently alter any magazine's capacity because legally a magazine can be repaired by replacing any or all parts and still legally be considered the same original mag.

This logic would make any altered mag that originally accepted more than 10 rounds illegal under all circumstances due to there being no legal way to permanently alter said magazine.

--Ben

ivanimal
07-29-2008, 5:55 AM
It sounds like you are manufacturing a 30 round magazine and skirting the law.:cool:

aplinker
07-29-2008, 6:02 AM
It sounds like you are manufacturing a 30 round magazine and skirting the law.:cool:

Agreed. The only thing that matters is if the repaired magazine is the same type as the one that it began as - codified are only two types of detachable mags, large capacity and not.

You can not rebuild a magazine that's not large capacity into one that is.

AEC1
07-29-2008, 6:11 AM
I understand your frustraition with the Standard Cap mag ban, I am from Florida and trust me, I HATE buying wepons here as I get stuck with these reduces cap things.

At what point do we draw the line, our argument that we are just law abiding citizens excercising our rights when we start breaking the law. If you start with a 10 rounder, make it a 30 rounder then you are no longer a law abiding citizen. If you start with a 30 and make the repair ot a 30, then you are ok.

We have to stop. I know it sucks, but if you break the law and get caught it makes us all look bad, obey the law till it is changed, work to change it and be a good citizen.

sfwdiy
07-29-2008, 6:20 AM
I understand your frustraition with the Standard Cap mag ban, I am from Florida and trust me, I HATE buying wepons here as I get stuck with these reduces cap things.

At what point do we draw the line, our argument that we are just law abiding citizens excercising our rights when we start breaking the law. If you start with a 10 rounder, make it a 30 rounder then you are no longer a law abiding citizen. If you start with a 30 and make the repair ot a 30, then you are ok.

We have to stop. I know it sucks, but if you break the law and get caught it makes us all look bad, obey the law till it is changed, work to change it and be a good citizen.

I'm definitely not trying to manufacture hi-cap mags, far from it. My concern is that it may be difficult if not impossible for a 10/30 magazine to meet the legal definition of "permanently altered." I like the cosmetic effect of 10/30 magazines. AKs especially just look goofy with tiny magazines. I just wouldn't want myself or anyone else to get popped on a hi-cap charge for having a modified mag that originally held more than 10 rounds, even though it's been pinned to hold 10 or less.

--Ben

AEC1
07-29-2008, 6:22 AM
Gottcha, there are ways to modify it, a weld bead placed in the right spot could to it, as well as other methods.

Unfortunately there are those among us that do make the standard caps and that is what gets my goat...

sfwdiy
07-29-2008, 6:30 AM
Gottcha, there are ways to modify it, a weld bead placed in the right spot could to it, as well as other methods.

Unfortunately there are those among us that do make the standard caps and that is what gets my goat...

Understandable. If you're out there making new hi-caps from parts kits you're doing all of us a disservice.

aplinker
07-29-2008, 6:42 AM
Understandable. If you're out there making new hi-caps from parts kits you're doing all of us a disservice.

There have been discussions about what's sufficient to be "permanent" - especially given the lack of permanence apparent on many approved handgun mags.

Rivet + epoxy is one.

Remember, none of this is logical - it's just what appears to be the level of acceptance with the DOJ.

motorhead
07-29-2008, 6:49 AM
in order to repair a 30 you have to have owned a 30 before the ban. 10/30's did not exist and would not qualify. mag had to start life as 30 and be in your posession before the ban.

SOneThreeCoupe
07-29-2008, 8:01 AM
Unfortunately there are those among us that do make the standard caps and that is what gets my goat...

The people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of the people.

Don't you find it odd that we're so hesitant to break a law overruled by the Constitution? I am not advocating that we break the law to protest the law, but simply commenting on the sad state of affairs here in the constitutional federal republic of the United States.

Those who decide to assemble standard capacity mags are breaking the law, and I don't recommend it, but they're also exercising the "shall not be infringed" clause.

We are not criminals. We do not harm those who do not have the intent to cause us harm. Yet we are punished for the actions of two bank robbers. Rather than allow us to prove our good intentions, the state has destroyed our rights.

Blacky
07-29-2008, 8:17 AM
This is my understanding -- If I'm out in the middle of the desert and I want to pop in a 30 rounder, bought and assembled from parts I am breaking the law. Is this considered a felony?

Blacktail 8541
07-29-2008, 8:23 AM
If the parts were assymbled after the ban took effect and it was not rebuilding a magazine that is preban, then yes you are committing a felony in the senerio that you decribed.

Blacky
07-29-2008, 8:27 AM
How can that be verified?

Blacktail 8541
07-29-2008, 8:42 AM
First of all, it is not about verification. You asked a specific question. What you decribed is illeagle.

Second, you did not state what type of firearm that was in your senerio. Assumed it was an AR. non registerd. BB build or featureless, doesn't matter.

Mag as stated was assymebled after the ban.

Now as for verfication of illeagel mag, that would be hard to prove. Plus you said that you were out in the middle of the dessert:gene:.

packnrat
07-29-2008, 8:43 AM
How can that be verified?

try "poping" in your 30 rounder at the local range...and when your court date has come and gone, post up here on calguns.net

a legal place to talk about legal things, not how to go around the laws.

hay mods maybe time to lock this thread before it get too far off the grey area.

:TFH:

.

sorensen440
07-29-2008, 8:46 AM
try "poping" in your 30 rounder at the local range...and when your court date has come and gone, post up here on calguns.net

a legal place to talk about legal things, not how to go around the laws.

hay mods maybe time to lock this thread before it get too far off the grey area.

:TFH:

.

Nothing illegal about using 30rnd magazines that you owned prior to the ban at the range
Ive done it
Ive seen people do it
and I dont know of anyone ever getting arrested for it

SOneThreeCoupe
07-29-2008, 9:11 AM
How can that be verified?

This is not a road that we go down on Calguns, mostly because it looks like we're a subversive bunch if we're talking about how to skirt the law.

If the CGF wasn't so important, we'd have a better discussion, but for the sake of the Foundation and the forums, we'll have to leave it be.

eltee
07-29-2008, 9:21 AM
On the permanence issue, it is difficult to quantify it in a legal sense. With every mag I've seen that was modified in California and in the gunshops up in Canada, nothing that was done couldn't be undone in a machine shop.

Pins, blocks, tabs, etc. spot welded, epoxied, super glued, etc. could all be reversed. IMHO, however, they all met the spirit and intent of the law as well as the letter of the law.

The advice given here is sound, don't try to circumvent or misinterpret the law by "rebuilding" a legal mag into an illegal mag. However, if you are anticipating a future move out of California and wanted to unblock your mag when you relocated, it can usually be done. For AR mags, it's probably cheaper and easier to just buy new ones if there were tabs cut into the mag body or a pin press fitted or spot welded into the body. For the more expensive mags (i.e., G36) it might be worth the effort.

Blacky
07-29-2008, 9:50 AM
Just to clarify every firearm and every piece of firearm equipment I own is legal and I intend to keep it that way. I am not an attorney or law student but I like to try to keep up with the laws as they change. Also I am not a criminal nor do I have any criminal intentions.

A big part of the reason I participate in this forum is to keep up with firearms info. and enjoy the company of good people that have similar interests.

packnrat, you need more fiber in your diet.

sigsauer887
07-29-2008, 3:52 PM
So if someone were to purchase a mag repair kit (when the don't currently possess a high cap mag) to mod them to 10 rounds, is that illegal? Would that be "causes to manufacture" per penal code 12020?

aplinker
07-29-2008, 4:01 PM
So if someone were to purchase a mag repair kit (when the don't currently possess a high cap mag) to mod them to 10 rounds, is that illegal? Would that be "causes to manufacture" per penal code 12020?

Only if, at any point, they were assembled into mags with the capacity to accept >10rds.

AEC1
07-29-2008, 4:39 PM
OK the point is dead, if you didnt have a 30 round before the ban, you cant make new ones, you can modify 30 rds to be 10 all day long just not the other way...

bohoki
07-29-2008, 7:06 PM
there is two points that need to be covered

#1 high capacity magazines permanantly altered to only hold 10

and

#2 assembling magazine parts to make a 10 round magazine

not many people are doing #1

they are doing a#2

and since the parts are not a "high capacity magazine " they do not have to be permanantly altered they just have to only hold 10

it is like having a 10 round glock mag someone could put a +2 on the bottom but that would be illegal

like i someone were to use a replacement body that could hold more but is currently being used with a block inside

it would be manufacturing a high capacity magazine if one were to remove the block and reassemble it

but i'm not a lawyer

Blacky
07-29-2008, 9:43 PM
Why do so many people here get so spun out if someone asks particular questions? Aren't we all on the same damn team? I'm pretty sure the mods manage anything that would misrepresent Calguns integrity. Try a PM if it really effects the forum, it might be more constructive.

I sure as hell don't want to go to jail. I don't really get the 10/20 round mag unless there is a secret function that makes it better than a straight 10 round mag.

I spend more time reading than I do posting. I can only speak for myself but I'm just trying to make sure Ive got it right. Just because you have a butt load of posts doesn't entitle you to insult other members, declare a dead point/thread or order mods to lock threads.

I really enjoy these forums but I'm getting a little sick and tired of completely unnecessary rude replies that turn out to be wrong info. anyway.

SOneThreeCoupe
07-30-2008, 5:42 AM
They get spun out because they've probably been warned about discussing it in the past and want to prevent that from happening to whomever they're talking to.

90% of the reason people buy 10/30s is that they just look better. I think an M4gery looks ten times better with a 30-rounder than with a 10. 30s are also easier to yank out and rock in, at least for me.

Clodbuster
07-30-2008, 11:59 AM
Just make sure that whatever you do can't be undone by regular use and wear and tear.
I.E. Just a rivet to hold the mag to 10 rounds may be insufficient with all the stress and recoil buffeting during use. Having it breakoff and return to regular capacity would be bad.

Clod

On the permanence issue, it is difficult to quantify it in a legal sense. With every mag I've seen that was modified in California and in the gunshops up in Canada, nothing that was done couldn't be undone in a machine shop.

Pins, blocks, tabs, etc. spot welded, epoxied, super glued, etc. could all be reversed. IMHO, however, they all met the spirit and intent of the law as well as the letter of the law.

Blacky
07-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Thanks Coupe, its the needless hostility I don't get.

I just picked up 2 more 10 round mags since I'm using Grants B15 BB. I agree the 20 and 30's look better. There must be something better for them to be so popular.

EDIT: Does anyone make a polymer 10/20 mag for AR?

Josh3239
07-30-2008, 2:01 PM
I just picked up 2 more 10 round mags since I'm using Grants B15 BB. I agree the 20 and 30's look better. There must be something better for them to be so popular.

People like em mostly for the look and that they are a lot easier to insert, remove, put in pouches, etc because of their longer bodies.

Blacky
07-30-2008, 5:39 PM
I ordered one from 44Mag (http://www.44mag.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CPSS2010) earlier today. I assume its the right one.

The only possible disadvantage I can think of is weight.

I just bought my first AR last year so I'm still struggling with some specific legal content and trying to make sure I'm jumping through all of the hoops for the fine state of CA.

AEC1
07-30-2008, 9:20 PM
Why do so many people here get so spun out if someone asks particular questions? Aren't we all on the same damn team? I'm pretty sure the mods manage anything that would misrepresent Calguns integrity. Try a PM if it really effects the forum, it might be more constructive.


No one was trying to be rude or get spun up. I have in fact been given a hard time by a LEO over my 30rders, that are here legal. I simply want to ensure that others to go down a slippery slope and get themselves in ho****er all the while giving legislaters "ammo" to ban our mags. As far as the rest goes, I dont see the need to allow a simple question spiral into a long heated debate over what is "right vs what is legal" That is a whole differnat can of worms, that I would gladly debate, however the initial thread was focused on the LEGALITY of the issue not the morality of it...;)

aplinker
07-30-2008, 11:46 PM
The magpul 20rd mags modified to 10s are about the best choice now.

The extra length is extremely helpful in loading/unloading. I prefer the 20rd mags because they have enough length to be helpful, but don't get in the way on the bench. Pmags are fanstastic - tops of the mags out there right now.

Blacky
07-31-2008, 6:53 AM
The magpul 20rd mags modified to 10s are about the best choice now.

Where are you getting these? Direct from Magpul? BTW thanks everybody.

sfwdiy
07-31-2008, 10:11 AM
Wow, this spun completely off from where I started. I'm still not sure how some got the idea that I was looking for a loophole to build hi-caps. My only concern here was the permanence of the alterations to limit capacity. Apparently I've managed to stir a crock-pot full of you-know-what. :-)

Blacky
07-31-2008, 4:01 PM
I apologize sfwdiy, I think I was the one that crocked in the pot. Pot of beans... full of fiber! :p