PDA

View Full Version : Calif LEO's Exempt?


TRAP55
07-28-2008, 8:24 AM
I have a friend in TX selling a SIG P239 SAS, and he asks this question:
I have a fellow inquiring about a firearm I have for sale (Sig P239 SAS). In my ad, I note that unfortunately I cannot sell it to CA residents, because this caliber variant isn't listed on CA's "approved handgun list". He states that because he is a LEO, the approved list doesn't apply to him. Is this accurate?
Can anyone verify this? and/or back it up with a quote from the DOJ?

Casual Observer
07-28-2008, 8:36 AM
I have a friend in TX selling a SIG P239 SAS, and he asks this question:

Can anyone verify this? and/or back it up with a quote from the DOJ?

This is true. A LEO can purchase a gun that is not on the safe handgun list.

The weapon can be shipped to his local FFL where, upon providing documentation confirming his LEO status, the gun can be DROS'd using the LEO exemption button.

Perfectly legal.

Daevian
07-28-2008, 8:43 AM
Where's this button? When I use to DROS guns, I never saw this exemption?

And why would a LEO be exempt? What is the logical (if any) reasoning behind it?

Liberty1
07-28-2008, 8:44 AM
Yes a LEO may buy "unsafe guns". The firearm will need to be shipped to a CA FFL. Your friend can verify this with the FFL who will be receiving the firearm.

Liberty1
07-28-2008, 8:45 AM
And why would a LEO be exempt? What is the logical (if any) reasoning behind it?

So the police lobby in Sac. (porac) wouldn't oppose the bill. :mad: That's why.

Glock22Fan
07-28-2008, 8:53 AM
And why would a LEO be exempt? What is the logical (if any) reasoning behind it?

Because, unlike us, they are highly trained to handle any firearm in a safe manner.:D

nobs11
07-28-2008, 9:26 AM
Because, unlike us, they are highly trained to handle any firearm in a safe manner.:D

They are the only ones in this room professional enough to handle a gun.

RB1
07-28-2008, 9:31 AM
They are the only ones in this room professional enough to handle a gun.
Thank you for the compliment.:43:
Its sad California just gets more and more ridiculous with its anti gun laws. They just passed a new California FFL transfer license requirement effective July 1 08. This requires the FFL dealers out of state get a special license to ship into California. I have already talked to a few dealers who refuse to get this they will just not ship to CA. Thats what CA wants to regulate guns with out banning them adding additional safety requirements and special permits. They just make it hard on the dealers and manufacturers so fewer guns come in. Just like the games DC is playing now. Its wrong all law abiding citizens should be able to have whatever they want.

dfletcher
07-28-2008, 9:58 AM
Thank you for the compliment.:43:
Its sad California just gets more and more ridiculous with its anti gun laws. They just passed a new California FFL transfer license requirement effective July 1 08. This requires the FFL dealers out of state get a special license to ship into California. I have already talked to a few dealers who refuse to get this they will just not ship to CA. Thats what CA wants to regulate guns with out banning them adding additional safety requirements and special permits. They just make it hard on the dealers and manufacturers so fewer guns come in. Just like the games DC is playing now. Its wrong all law abiding citizens should be able to have whatever they want.

I don't pretend to know all the work Type 01 FFL holders have to do to stay out of trouble with ATF and their state's firearms bureau - for me and most others going to a gun store is all fun, for FFLs it's real work. And having CA reach out and twist their lower parts is I presume especially galling, but as a suggestion I'd point out that using the CFLC is very easy and quick and there's of course money to be made.

From a principle approach, not sending guns to CA gun owners only gives these groups encouragement - rather risky when it looks like we could soon have have the most anti - gun President in US history. And if CA residents have been good customers in the past, shouldn't it continue despite this crappy little law? I notice many postings read "No Sales to CA" or "Won't Send Guns to CA" - almost makes it sound like the gun sales aren't being cut off from individual gun owners, just a nondescript group or area.

While it would be nice to see the "Won't Sell to Ca" postings gone, I think alot of us would be happy to see "Additional Charge for CA" much like the 3% for credit card fee. The CFLC is an additional cost, charge for & ship away.

eta34
07-28-2008, 9:59 AM
Wrong. It is because we are more highly trained than you civilians. After all, we qualifiy with our hanguns every quarter, 40 rounds each time. Highly qualified.

sfwdiy
07-28-2008, 9:59 AM
They are the only ones in this room professional enough to know when a wooden desk poses a threat to bystanders.

FTFY.

Daevian
07-28-2008, 10:00 AM
Thank you for the compliment.:43:
Its sad California just gets more and more ridiculous with its anti gun laws. They just passed a new California FFL transfer license requirement effective July 1 08. This requires the FFL dealers out of state get a special license to ship into California. I have already talked to a few dealers who refuse to get this they will just not ship to CA. Thats what CA wants to regulate guns with out banning them adding additional safety requirements and special permits. They just make it hard on the dealers and manufacturers so fewer guns come in. Just like the games DC is playing now. Its wrong all law abiding citizens should be able to have whatever they want.

Exactly why my company refuses to sell, ship, or dros any guns.

Daevian
07-28-2008, 10:01 AM
They are the only ones in this room professional enough to handle a gun.

That's cute.. :rolleyes:

1911_sfca
07-28-2008, 1:50 PM
I have a friend in TX selling a SIG P239 SAS, and he asks this question:

Can anyone verify this? and/or back it up with a quote from the DOJ?

Yes. Here is a "quote" from the DOJ regarding LEOs and non-rostered handguns:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo.php

packnrat
07-28-2008, 2:01 PM
Yes. Here is a "quote" from the DOJ regarding LEOs and non-rostered handguns:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo.php

if i was in the free world, i would still require the leo to show prof he is a leo, buy sending me a letter on letterhead from his chief stating he is what he say's he is.

got to cover your six these day's.


:TFH:


.

bulgron
07-28-2008, 2:13 PM
Wrong. It is because we are more highly trained than you civilians. After all, we qualifiy with our hanguns every quarter, 40 rounds each time. Highly qualified.

Tell you what, I'll happily qualify every quarter if they'll give me a CCW. What the heck, I love to shoot anyway.

Only shooting 40 rounds a quarter per gun would certainly save me a lot of money. :D

dfletcher
07-28-2008, 2:53 PM
Wrong. It is because we are more highly trained than you civilians. After all, we qualifiy with our hanguns every quarter, 40 rounds each time. Highly qualified.

Yikes - 40 rounds to qualify? That must take forever, what with having to pull them out of your shirt pocket one at a time like that. :rofl2:

eltee
07-28-2008, 4:37 PM
Why are you laughing? I qualify 4 x year minimum x 40 + rounds with each duty weapon... and pulling out one bullet at a time, measuring out the powder and pushing that ramrod down the barrel is a huge pain.

Now if my backwards department would just give us that new fangled "modern ammunition" where everything is in one piece it might be easier.

The gun dealers simply call the station after looking at our ID to verify status...besides I THINK that CA DOJ firearms division can easily cross reference with the CA POST police personnel database to confirm. Can you imagine the legal sanctions if someone impersonated an officer in order to buy a banned gun.

There are some issues with LEO sales re. assault rifles, handguns that are not on the list, highcap mags, etc. when the officers retire. Some stuff you can keep, others you can't.

HowardW56
07-28-2008, 4:45 PM
Yikes - 40 rounds to qualify? That must take forever, what with having to pull them out of your shirt pocket one at a time like that. :rofl2:

Barney..... Load your bullet!!

:tt2:

Casual Observer
07-28-2008, 5:30 PM
if i was in the free world, i would still require the leo to show prof he is a leo, buy sending me a letter on letterhead from his chief stating he is what he say's he is.

got to cover your six these day's.


:TFH:


.


At our shop, we photocopy the LEO's ID card and sometimes his badge as well along with his CDL when we DROS. Most don't have any problem with this.

A few of the Federal Agents we've dealt with, however, have told us it's actually against policy for them to let someone photocopy their ID. Instead, they provide agency letterhead with their supervising agent's signature.

CSDGuy
07-28-2008, 6:44 PM
At our shop, we photocopy the LEO's ID card and sometimes his badge as well along with his CDL when we DROS. Most don't have any problem with this.

A few of the Federal Agents we've dealt with, however, have told us it's actually against policy for them to let someone photocopy their ID. Instead, they provide agency letterhead with their supervising agent's signature.
My understanding is that it is illegal for you to photocopy Federal LEO ID. Furthermore, I recall a DoJ FAQ that said that if a Federal LEO presents that ID, you are to basically write down the info on the card, but you're not to actually photocopy the ID. It's been a while, so I could very easily be wrong.

HowardW56
07-28-2008, 6:52 PM
My understanding is that it is illegal for you to photocopy Federal LEO ID. Furthermore, I recall a DoJ FAQ that said that if a Federal LEO presents that ID, you are to basically write down the info on the card, but you're not to actually photocopy the ID. It's been a while, so I could very easily be wrong.


I have been told the same thing...

Ding126
07-28-2008, 6:55 PM
I keep thinking of a friend who is LE and said," The safest place to be in a shoot out is in front of a LE" Since they can't hit what they are aiming at.
I know its not true,,but that came to mind when i read the posts.

hoffmang
07-28-2008, 6:56 PM
Here is the section of the California Penal Code that exempts LEOs:


12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
...
(4) The sale or purchase of any pistol, revolver or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, if the pistol, revolver,
or other firearm is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of
Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's
office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California
Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, or the military or
naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the
discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this
section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these
agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.

From: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12125-12133.html

-Gene

Casual Observer
07-28-2008, 7:03 PM
My understanding is that it is illegal for you to photocopy Federal LEO ID. Furthermore, I recall a DoJ FAQ that said that if a Federal LEO presents that ID, you are to basically write down the info on the card, but you're not to actually photocopy the ID. It's been a while, so I could very easily be wrong.

It might very well be. The fact they have an agency policy never to let their ID out of their control makes it a moot point.

Guntech
07-28-2008, 7:08 PM
Sorry to steal your thread but do LEO's have a 10 day waiting period or "cooling period" as the DOJ has dubbed it? If so, why is it necessary since they are Law Enforcement?

jb7706
07-28-2008, 7:16 PM
Sorry to steal your thread but do LEO's have a 10 day waiting period or "cooling period" as the DOJ has dubbed it? If so, why is it necessary since they are Law Enforcement?

According to a Sac PD buddy of mine he has a 10 day wait unless he presents a letter from his department exempting him from it. Second hand info, so take it FWIW.

TRAP55
07-28-2008, 7:20 PM
1911 and Hoffmang, thanks for the link and quote!

ke6guj
07-28-2008, 7:28 PM
According to a Sac PD buddy of mine he has a 10 day wait unless he presents a letter from his department exempting him from it. Second hand info, so take it FWIW.
+1. A Deputy buddy of mine has to wait 10 days unless he gets a letter. He'll get a letter for anything concealable that could be used as a backup/off-duty piece but will do the wait for recreational stuff.

jmzhwells
07-28-2008, 7:31 PM
Yeah, anyone with a gun already should not have to have a cool off period, because obviously they can just use the one they already have if they want to do something crazy. Stupid laws. For LEO's all they need is a letter that is correct.

CSDGuy
07-28-2008, 7:33 PM
LEO without an agency letter that exempts that LEO from the 10 day wait must wait the 10 days like everyone else.

slick_711
07-28-2008, 7:38 PM
Wrong. It is because we are more highly trained than you civilians. After all, we qualifiy with our hanguns every quarter, 40 rounds each time. Highly qualified.

Yeah, the 100+ rounds a week I put through my 1911s alone don't qualify me. ;)


My understanding is that it is illegal for you to photocopy Federal LEO ID. Furthermore, I recall a DoJ FAQ that said that if a Federal LEO presents that ID, you are to basically write down the info on the card, but you're not to actually photocopy the ID. It's been a while, so I could very easily be wrong.

You are indeed correct. It's also against general policy (actually I believe its illegal) to make *color* copies of CA LEO IDs. But with the Feds it is illegal to copy their IDs; our SOP is to we verify them and then write down a brief statement that we witnessed they are indeed Fed LEOs and sign it (typically on the same sheet we copy their CA DL on.

FortCourageArmory
07-28-2008, 7:38 PM
Wrong. It is because we are more highly trained than you civilians. After all, we qualifiy with our hanguns every quarter, 40 rounds each time. Highly qualified.
That would be just enough to get you through one stage at the monthly action pistol match I attend. Six stages x 40 rounds/stage x 12 monthly matches = 2,880 rounds put downrange. And that's just one monthly match. I shoot 3-5 matches a month plus practice sessions. Yep....LEOs are highly trained in comparison..... ;)

<note....tounge firmly planted in cheek. No disrespect intended to any LEOs>

Guntech
07-28-2008, 7:40 PM
Yeah, anyone with a gun already should not have to have a cool off period, because obviously they can just use the one they already have if they want to do something crazy. Stupid laws. For LEO's all they need is a letter that is correct.
I'm with you on that! I never understand it, its probably just to spite us.

hawk1
07-28-2008, 7:49 PM
I have a friend in TX selling a SIG P239 SAS, and he asks this question:

Can anyone verify this? and/or back it up with a quote from the DOJ?

Hey small world, I just bought Kevins (your friend) Colt 1911 last week. Tell him I said hello please.

cbn620
07-28-2008, 8:01 PM
But hold on guys, I'm under the impression that the SIG P239 SAS is indeed on the safe handguns roster. So why would anyone need to be exempt to purchase it? It's perfectly legal as far as I know.

Trader Jack
07-28-2008, 9:46 PM
Because, unlike us, they are highly trained to handle any firearm in a safe manner.:D

That's a crock of s----. Remember according to the Ca. DOJ it is the GUN THAT IS UNSAFE so Leo training does not mean squats. If I ran a store and a Leo came to me to buy an off list gun and went on to tell me how he\she is exempt. I would just say sorry, no sale.:chris:

artherd
07-28-2008, 10:11 PM
My understanding is that it is illegal for you to photocopy Federal LEO ID.

Generally you're correct.

eta34
07-29-2008, 4:49 AM
You guys clearly don't understand. The 40 quarterly rounds I shoot through my duty weapon are "Law Enforcement Only" rounds. They pierce 6 inch steel plates. They shred "bullet-proof" vests with ease. They have stopping power that far exceeds any .50 caliber rifle on the market.

Plus, I am tacticool. How many of you can shoot a perp with your strong hand while balancing a jelly doughnut on the rim of a boiling hot cup of coffee, all while driving code three at 100 plus miles an hour...all without spilling the coffee in your lap? Hmph...didn't think so.

For you civilians to meet my skills, you would have to shoot at least 1000 of your civilian rounds for each cop round I shoot. Therefore, I am clearly more qualified to handle unsafe guns than you.

TRAP55
07-29-2008, 8:41 AM
Hey small world, I just bought Kevins (your friend) Colt 1911 last week. Tell him I said hello please.
hawk, Kevin is good people, and without seeing it, I'll bet the SIG is as close to being a safe queen as that 1911 is. and BTW.....that is one nice Colt! If I didn't fear death from "the redhead who will be obeyed", that one would have been in my safe!:D

hawk1
07-29-2008, 9:21 AM
But hold on guys, I'm under the impression that the SIG P239 SAS is indeed on the safe handguns roster. So why would anyone need to be exempt to purchase it? It's perfectly legal as far as I know.

You're wrong. The pistol in question is a 9mm. Only the .40 is good to go..

P239 SAS / Stainless Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.6" .40 S&W 12/19/2008

hawk1
07-29-2008, 9:24 AM
hawk, Kevin is good people, and without seeing it, I'll bet the SIG is as close to being a safe queen as that 1911 is. and BTW.....that is one nice Colt! If I didn't fear death from "the redhead who will be obeyed", that one would have been in my safe!:D

Just tell her you bought it for her...:D

I had nothing but a great transaction with Kevin. The Colt was everything he said it was and then some. I also appreciated that he kept all the papers and whatnot that Colt sent out with it

Scorpiusdeus
07-29-2008, 9:35 AM
You guys clearly don't understand. The 40 quarterly rounds I shoot through my duty weapon are "Law Enforcement Only" rounds. They pierce 6 inch steel plates. They shred "bullet-proof" vests with ease. They have stopping power that far exceeds any .50 caliber rifle on the market.

Plus, I am tacticool. How many of you can shoot a perp with your strong hand while balancing a jelly doughnut on the rim of a boiling hot cup of coffee, all while driving code three at 100 plus miles an hour...all without spilling the coffee in your lap? Hmph...didn't think so.

For you civilians to meet my skills, you would have to shoot at least 1000 of your civilian rounds for each cop round I shoot. Therefore, I am clearly more qualified to handle unsafe guns than you.

It's amazing how much training they are able to squeeze into 18 weeks. :D

Do you vary the type of doughnut or is jelly filled pretty standard? I'm thinking a Bearclaw could really ruin your day.

TRAP55
07-29-2008, 6:10 PM
Just tell her you bought it for her...
She busted me with another new 20ga O/U about two weeks before her birthday, and I just blurted out that excuse. Then I tried to run with that to make her feel bad like she ruined the surprise. Didn't work, I got to shoot "HER" gun one time.........and she made me clean it too.:mad:

Theseus
07-30-2008, 1:12 AM
Wow. With the attitude I have gotten from LEO the last few weeks makes me glad I never turned to the dark side. . . There is still some good in him. . I can feel it!!

eta34
07-30-2008, 7:30 AM
It's amazing how much training they are able to squeeze into 18 weeks. :D

Do you vary the type of doughnut or is jelly filled pretty standard? I'm thinking a Bearclaw could really ruin your day.

Actually, my academy was 26 weeks. I try to stay with the jelly filled as much as possible. The bearclaw is simply too big. If I eat one early in the shift, it really impairs my ability to maximize my Hometown Buffet dollar later on in the day.

scootergmc
07-30-2008, 8:44 AM
Actually, my academy was 26 weeks. I try to stay with the jelly filled as much as possible. The bearclaw is simply too big. If I eat one early in the shift, it really impairs my ability to maximize my Hometown Buffet dollar later on in the day.

Don't forget the Starbucks filled camelbaks for tactical ops.

Sunwolf
07-30-2008, 10:33 AM
You guys clearly don't understand. The 40 quarterly rounds I shoot through my duty weapon are "Law Enforcement Only" rounds. They pierce 6 inch steel plates. They shred "bullet-proof" vests with ease. They have stopping power that far exceeds any .50 caliber rifle on the market.

Plus, I am tacticool. How many of you can shoot a perp with your strong hand while balancing a jelly doughnut on the rim of a boiling hot cup of coffee, all while driving code three at 100 plus miles an hour...all without spilling the coffee in your lap? Hmph...didn't think so.

For you civilians to meet my skills, you would have to shoot at least 1000 of your civilian rounds for each cop round I shoot. Therefore, I am clearly more qualified to handle unsafe guns than you.
Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!:D

dfletcher
07-30-2008, 1:44 PM
Actually, my academy was 26 weeks. I try to stay with the jelly filled as much as possible. The bearclaw is simply too big. If I eat one early in the shift, it really impairs my ability to maximize my Hometown Buffet dollar later on in the day.

Very funny - everyone knows Bearclaws & Apple Fritters are reserved for command personnel only. ;)

eltee
07-30-2008, 1:54 PM
Initial academy nearly 6 months, in service training and later on SWAT school etc. and I am now a master at:
1. All things that fire bullets
2. Driving at pursuit speeds while operating the radio, talking on the cell phone, checking out the pretty women on the street, eating a chile verde super burrito without dripping and washing it down with a beverage without spilling. All the while telling my trainee war stories.
3. All things that fire bullets
4. Marital arts (sic)

retired
07-30-2008, 11:34 PM
Here is the section of the California Penal Code that exempts LEOs:

Quote:
12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
...
(4) The sale or purchase of any pistol, revolver or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, if the pistol, revolver,
or other firearm is sold to, or purchased by, the Department of
Justice, any police department, any sheriff's official, any marshal's
office, the Youth and Adult Correctional Agency, the California
Highway Patrol, any district attorney's office, or the military or
naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the
discharge of their official duties. Nor shall anything in this
section prohibit the sale to, or purchase by, sworn members of these
agencies of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.

Now, all they need to do is add retired leos.:D

bulgron
07-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Now, all they need to do is add retired leos.:D

So if I see a handgun that I want and which is NOT on the safe handgun list, can I have a LEO buddy buy it for me and then do a PTP transfer? I don't see anything in 12125 that would seem to preclude that.

Just curious.

DesertGunner
07-31-2008, 2:44 PM
Plus, I am tacticool. How many of you can shoot a perp with your strong hand while balancing a jelly doughnut on the rim of a boiling hot cup of coffee, all while driving code three at 100 plus miles an hour...all without spilling the coffee in your lap? Hmph...didn't think so.


Whatever, rookie.

Do that while shooting with your WEAK SIDE hand, then we'll talk.... ;)

retired
07-31-2008, 2:53 PM
Bulgron, I believe that would meet the definition of a straw man purchase and illegal.

I, of course, was joking with my statement, but it certainly would be nice if I could buy some of the neat stuff an active leo can. I wish I had the foresight to work more OT while active le.:(

DesertGunner, that's nothing until you are doing the shooting with your 2", fixed sight, 5 shot revolver back up gun.;):p:D

bulgron
07-31-2008, 3:05 PM
DesertGunner, that's nothing until you are doing the shooting with your 2", fixed sight, 5 shot revolver back up gun.

This is nothing to write home about until you can do it with your feet.

Which, of course, any chimp can do. :D :D :eek: :D :D

dfletcher
07-31-2008, 3:54 PM
So if I see a handgun that I want and which is NOT on the safe handgun list, can I have a LEO buddy buy it for me and then do a PTP transfer? I don't see anything in 12125 that would seem to preclude that.

Just curious.

So long as you are otherwise not prohibited from participating in a PPT it is perfectly legal. The common folk buy handguns that used to be owned by LE types quite often I'd imagine.