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View Full Version : Possession of lead ammo while hunting


E Pluribus Unum
07-27-2008, 4:34 AM
I got a pamphlet with my deer tag that said mere possession of lead ammunition, even if not anywhere attached to the firearm, is illegal in a condor zone while hunting.

The law says that target shooting with lead is still permitted. I guess one cannot do both.

I hunt with my M14 with 20-25 round mags. Part of this is there have been cases of hunters stumbling into marijuana fields. If a mountain lion, or drug dealer decides to do me in I want to have enough ammo.

In the past I have kept 4-5 loaded mags on my while hunting. At $50 per box for leadless ammo, that is $200 just in ammunition alone. What i would like to do is have one magazine of leadless that is in the gun and 3 or so more with regular ammo for self defense purposes.

After incorporation of Heller, I fail to see how ammo carried for the purposes of self defense could be controlled. It is nothing new; I have had game wardens tell me that possession of a FMJ bullet while hunting is a no-no yet none would give me a cite.

I guess once they lose the fight over guns, they take aim at the ammo.

Pred@tor
07-27-2008, 5:07 AM
So thats how they are going to enforce it eh? That sucks...

Meplat
07-27-2008, 4:06 PM
I got a pamphlet with my deer tag that said mere possession of lead ammunition, even if not anywhere attached to the firearm, is illegal in a condor zone while hunting.

The law says that target shooting with lead is still permitted. I guess one cannot do both.

I hunt with my M14 with 20-25 round mags. Part of this is there have been cases of hunters stumbling into marijuana fields. If a mountain lion, or drug dealer decides to do me in I want to have enough ammo.

In the past I have kept 4-5 loaded mags on my while hunting. At $50 per box for leadless ammo, that is $200 just in ammunition alone. What i would like to do is have one magazine of leadless that is in the gun and 3 or so more with regular ammo for self defense purposes.

After incorporation of Heller, I fail to see how ammo carried for the purposes of self defense could be controlled. It is nothing new; I have had game wardens tell me that possession of a FMJ bullet while hunting is a no-no yet none would give me a cite.

I guess once they lose the fight over guns, they take aim at the ammo.



They are winning the fight over guns, they are just going after ammo at the same time.
You could buy a box of Barnes X bullets for 40 bucks and get a friend to load them up for you. After test loads and sighting in you should have two 20 round mags worth left. If you see anything you want to shoot you probably will not use up more than two or three. Next year do the same thing and youíll be set up with almost 100 rounds of hunting ammo that should last the rest of your life. I know this is a pain in the @ss but donít let the bastards shut you down. Another option would be, if you have an auto pistol, cast up a bunch of zinc bullets for it and carry a bunch of loaded mags for it. In fact that would be a good compliment to option one. There is no prohibition of FMJ in possession while hunting. You canít actually hunt with it but you can possess it. Thus if you could find some steal cored military ammo with no lead in it, load up your extra Mags with it, and you are good to go. As long as itís not in the gun or in the magazine that is in the gun itís legal. That law was written before ďprior restraintĒ got totally out of hand.

Iím thinking about playing some real sneaky pranks on the wardens this year. There are so many ways to put together bullets that look like conventional lead core hunting bullets and or like nothing they have ever seen before itís ludicrous. If you have swaging equipment itís even better. While Iím telling them to talk to my lawyer and they are hauling me off to the poky they arenít hassling the rest of you guys right? The only reservation I have is that the wardens donít want this any more than we do. I have plenty of bones to pick with DFG but this was not their idea. It was forced on them, and the wardens are the most resistant group to this thing within DFG.

Fight high food prices; Eat a treehugger.

E Pluribus Unum
07-27-2008, 4:47 PM
They are winning the fight over guns, they are just going after ammo at the same time.
You could buy a box of Barnes X bullets for 40 bucks and get a friend to load them up for you. After test loads and sighting in you should have two 20 round mags worth left. If you see anything you want to shoot you probably will not use up more than two or three. Next year do the same thing and youíll be set up with almost 100 rounds of hunting ammo that should last the rest of your life. I know this is a pain in the @ss but donít let the bastards shut you down. Another option would be, if you have an auto pistol, cast up a bunch of zinc bullets for it and carry a bunch of loaded mags for it. In fact that would be a good compliment to option one. There is no prohibition of FMJ in possession while hunting. You canít actually hunt with it but you can possess it. Thus if you could find some steal cored military ammo with no lead in it, load up your extra Mags with it, and you are good to go. As long as itís not in the gun or in the magazine that is in the gun itís legal. That law was written before ďprior restraintĒ got totally out of hand.

Iím thinking about playing some real sneaky pranks on the wardens this year. There are so many ways to put together bullets that look like conventional lead core hunting bullets and or like nothing they have ever seen before itís ludicrous. If you have swaging equipment itís even better. While Iím telling them to talk to my lawyer and they are hauling me off to the poky they arenít hassling the rest of you guys right? The only reservation I have is that the wardens donít want this any more than we do. I have plenty of bones to pick with DFG but this was not their idea. It was forced on them, and the wardens are the most resistant group to this thing within DFG.

Fight high food prices; Eat a treehugger.

You are completely missing the point. I have the $200 to buy 80 rounds of leadless ammo.

I am wondering how a law like this is constitutional post Heller. I can see the legality of restricting lead ammo for hunting because it can be argued that the second amendment is for personal and national defense. The question is, post Heller, if the ammo is carried for personal defense I see no authority for California to ban possession of it.

jamesob
07-27-2008, 5:00 PM
is it legal to hunt with 20-25 round mags? the last i heard that was a no no. or does it depend on what you hunt? this law was passed before heller and has nothing to do with self defense. if i am hunting with lead free bullets and i have to waist my expensive bullets for self defense, well i wouldn't be to worried about shooting somebody with lead free bullets.

Pred@tor
07-27-2008, 6:10 PM
What about sidearms? Do you have to have tree hugger ammo in your pistol when you carry it while hunting?

NRAhighpowershooter
07-27-2008, 6:33 PM
Thus if you could find some steal cored military ammo with no lead in it, load up your extra Mags with it, and you are good to go.


Unfortunately steel core ammo still has lead in it.. same goes for AP ammo.. they all have lead to some degree

GJJ
07-27-2008, 8:06 PM
Commiefornia does not restrict magazine size for hunting.

E Pluribus Unum
07-27-2008, 9:10 PM
is it legal to hunt with 20-25 round mags? the last i heard that was a no no. or does it depend on what you hunt?

This is a common misconception. In other states there is a limit to your rifle round capacity but in California one can hunt with a 100 round drum if he so chooses' provided it is loaded with legal ammo (hollow point or soft tipped, non FMJ ammo).

this law was passed before heller and has nothing to do with self defense. if i am hunting with lead free bullets and i have to waist my expensive bullets for self defense, well i wouldn't be to worried about shooting somebody with lead free bullets.

Here is my point; I carry a green battle pack of FMJ .308 in my pickup just in case. I have been stranded in the mountains before; I like the idea of having plenty of ammunition. I can get a box of 20 .308 for $17.00. As long as I have at least one box of non-lead bullets loaded up and with the rifle, I should be able to hunt with the non-lead bullets but be in possession of lead bullets for legal target shooting, or self defense.

This law makes POSSESSION of lead ammo a crime. So if I only have one box of leadless ammo, I cannot carry any lead ammo for personal defense should I be stranded or confronted by drug farmers.

Case in point; I go hunting/camping on Greenhorn mountain. Sometimes I target shoot, and sometimes I hunt. If I am driving up to camp and in my truck I have lead target rounds and a hunting license, I can be in trouble for possession of lead ammo. One is not supposed to be in possession of both a lead projectile and a rifle capable of shooting that projectile.

This means that in order to comply with the law, I will have to decide in Bakersfield whether I am hunting, or target shooting, and only take the tools for that specific task.

What about sidearms? Do you have to have tree hugger ammo in your pistol when you carry it while hunting?

Any center-fire cartridge is a "method of take" meaning it can be used for hunting. Therefor one cannot be in possession of a handgun and lead ammunition for that handgun. It must be leadless; even if used for personal defense.

I have a friend that was a game warden for 20 years. He has had off duty cops hunting in bow season with their duty weapon ticketed for carrying a firearm in bow season. The fact that it is a duty weapon used for person defense does not matter; CCW holders are not allowed to carry their CCW weapon while hunting in bow season. No possession of firearms is allowed in bow season.

The same would hold true of lead ammunition. Possession of a firearm and lead ammunition for that firearm would be viewed as illegal by a game warden.

I believe it to be a violation of the second amendment.

Meplat
07-27-2008, 9:28 PM
You are completely missing the point. I have the $200 to buy 80 rounds of leadless ammo.

I am wondering how a law like this is constitutional post Heller. I can see the legality of restricting lead ammo for hunting because it can be argued that the second amendment is for personal and national defense. The question is, post Heller, if the ammo is carried for personal defense I see no authority for California to ban possession of it.

It's not constitutional pre or post Heller. It is what is called prior restraint and it is unconstitutional. Basically they are assuming simply because you possess the ammo it is your "intent" to hunt with it. They can't legally assume that. But they do, and they get away with it because no one wants to front thousands and thousands of their money to challenge it. The case will drag on and on,the lawyers fees will grow and grow, and eventually you might even get to the ninth circuit; good luck.

Meplat
07-27-2008, 9:34 PM
is it legal to hunt with 20-25 round mags? the last i heard that was a no no. or does it depend on what you hunt?

Funny, I thought so too, until a few years ago when I started seeing a lot of guys hunting with "assault rifles", I checked into it and there actually seems to be no restriction on rifles. Shotguns are another matter.

E Pluribus Unum
07-27-2008, 9:35 PM
Feeney, I thought so too, until a few years ago when I started seeing a lot of guys hunting with "assault rifles", I checked into it and there actually seems to be no restriction on rifles. Shotguns are another matter.

Shotguns are limited to 3 rounds... even while having a rifled barrel and hunting deer.... dangit.. ;)

No restriction whatsoever on rifle rounds.

Meplat
07-27-2008, 9:41 PM
What about sidearms? Do you have to have tree hugger ammo in your pistol when you carry it while hunting?

Have to, you can take deer with center fire handguns in CA. .22 rimfire may be OK as the DFG does not consider a .22 to be "capable of taking" a deer and if you are carrying it for gray squirrels and self defense it is probably OK.

Meplat
07-27-2008, 9:43 PM
Unfortunately steel core ammo still has lead in it.. same goes for AP ammo.. they all have lead to some degree

Too bad. For myself I'd section one to be sure even if I thought it was lead free.

Moonclip
07-27-2008, 11:17 PM
Hunt with a mini 30 or an AK and buy my Chinese steel core ammo listed in the trader, lol!

tcrpe
07-28-2008, 6:07 AM
I hunt with my M14 with 20-25 round mags.

Sounds like an awful lot of weight . . . .

tcrpe
07-28-2008, 6:12 AM
I guess once they lose the fight over guns, they take aim at the ammo.

Sneaky, aren't they?

E Pluribus Unum
07-28-2008, 12:58 PM
Sounds like an awful lot of weight . . . .

Not 20-25 magazines... I have 3-4 magazines of 20-25 round capacity.

The rifle, unloaded is 9.5 lbs. Add an extra pound for scope and mount I am at about 10.5 lbs for the rifle.

Add to that 80-100 rounds of .308. It is not the lightest rig for sure but I manage.

I built an OLL for this year; I am going to try it out to see if the lessor weight is worth the anemic bullet.

xdimitrix
07-28-2008, 4:05 PM
It's not constitutional pre or post Heller. It is what is called prior restraint and it is unconstitutional. Basically they are assuming simply because you possess the ammo it is your "intent" to hunt with it. They can't legally assume that. But they do, and they get away with it because no one wants to front thousands and thousands of their money to challenge it. The case will drag on and on,the lawyers fees will grow and grow, and eventually you might even get to the ninth circuit; good luck.

Same thing for not being able to have a handgun during archery season.

chris
07-28-2008, 4:43 PM
i think this law is total BS on a grand scale. allthough i did look on the DFG website and in the FAQ on the no lead area and possesion is not illegal.

link for you guys.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/LeadInformation.pdf

What are the regulations for possessing lead projectiles within the affected area?

The Commission prohibited the possession of lead projectiles and a firearm capable
of firing such projectiles, while big game or nongame hunting within the specified
range. Otherwise, lead projectiles may be possessed.

if i read this right possession is not illegal like in your truck and in an ammo can. i believe they can bust you if you ARE hunting with it and caught doing so. someone can chime in and correct me if i'm wrong please.

The Department’s Law Enforcement Division will be interpreting and enforcing these
regulations. If you have a scenario where you are not sure of legality, it is recommended
that you contact a local DFG warden to seek guidance

i do not trust this state in anyway training game wardens in determining what is a lead projectile and what is not. after reading the following statement i doubt we will recieve impartiality on being inspected by game wardens. this law is so bad and passed in PANIC mode in this state i doubt they even spent one day in a classroom to learn about identifying the correct ammo.

A training program will be implemented to familiarize field wardens with legal projectiles.
It is possible that a warden may seize a cartridge to inspect the bullet under controlled
conditions at a later time.

with that being said i do not trust any game warden anymore after reading what some have said that game wardens are going to purposely hassle hunters. now that is disgusting. i suggest everyone have a video camera or your cell phone and be ready to record. if anything happens such as harassment you can document it. i will be bringing my digital camera and have it ready for this. documentation is the best defense. also havig an eyewitness could be helpfull.

Bruce
07-29-2008, 6:57 AM
Are we allowed to demand to see what type of ammo the wardens are carrying? If they are lead, can we make a citizen's arrest for possessing lead ammo in a condor range? :D

Fjold
07-29-2008, 8:47 AM
Are we allowed to demand to see what type of ammo the wardens are carrying? If they are lead, can we make a citizen's arrest for possessing lead ammo in a condor range? :D


They're not hunting deer, just hunters.

Bruce
07-29-2008, 1:18 PM
They're not hunting deer, just hunters.

But they might shoot a hunter and then some poor innocent condor might
get lead poisoning.:rolleyes:

shellyzsweet
07-29-2008, 3:40 PM
Have to, you can take deer with center fire handguns in CA. .22 rimfire may be OK as the DFG does not consider a .22 to be "capable of taking" a deer and if you are carrying it for gray squirrels and self defense it is probably OK.


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/08-09-mammal-regs.pdf

page 16, section 353 A

353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.
(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through(h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow

So my interpretation of this is you can shoot a deer with a .22 if you want, and walk up and finish it off with a pistol round if you want, cause the pistol round actually kills the deer, but the killing round must be center fire.

personally, I think this would be incredibly cruel to an animal and unsportsman like...but its a free country....kinda

Meplat
07-29-2008, 7:11 PM
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/08-09-mammal-regs.pdf

page 16, section 353 A

353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.
(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through(h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow

So my interpretation of this is you can shoot a deer with a .22 if you want, and walk up and finish it off
with a pistol round if you want, cause the pistol round actually kills the deer, but the killing round must be center fire.

personally, I think this would be incredibly cruel to an animal and unsportsman like...but its a free country....kinda

That is some interesting hair splitting. I suppose the salient point is the definition of ďtakeĒ. Have you ďtakenĒ a game animal when you actually kill it or perhaps when it comes into your possession or control? Under the kill definition it would, even before the lead ban, be illegal to shoot a deer with a center fire rifle and finish it off with a .22 RF pistol, or by cutting itís throat. Both common practices, that I have never heard of being prosecuted, or even discouraged. Interesting.

Regardless, neither definition would change the need to have lead free ammo in any center fire handgun possessed while deer hunting, as far as I can tell.

Another interesting speculation could involve a .410 revolver. Loaded with say #2ís or BBís would be one heck of a short range defense gun but would not be considered by DFG as capable of ďtakingĒ a big game animal, so would be legal?

Moonclip
07-29-2008, 11:59 PM
Another interesting speculation could involve a .410 revolver. Loaded with say #2ís or BBís would be one heck of a short range defense gun but would not be considered by DFG as capable of ďtakingĒ a big game animal, so would be legal?

.410 revolvers are illegal in CA.

E Pluribus Unum
07-30-2008, 9:53 AM
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/08-09-mammal-regs.pdf

page 16, section 353 A

353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.
(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through(h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow

So my interpretation of this is you can shoot a deer with a .22 if you want, and walk up and finish it off with a pistol round if you want, cause the pistol round actually kills the deer, but the killing round must be center fire.

personally, I think this would be incredibly cruel to an animal and unsportsman like...but its a free country....kinda

You may not shoot a deer with .22; it is not center fire.

Meplat
07-30-2008, 12:02 PM
.410 revolvers are illegal in CA.

Even with rifled barrels?

Moonclip
07-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Even with rifled barrels?

I am almost 100% sure on this even with a rifled barrel.

E Pluribus Unum
08-03-2008, 10:27 PM
I am almost 100% sure on this even with a rifled barrel.

You are correct. A shotgun with a rifled barrel is still a shotgun. The law prohibits more than 3 rounds in a shotgun.

Meplat
08-04-2008, 8:06 PM
You are correct. A shotgun with a rifled barrel is still a shotgun. The law prohibits more than 3 rounds in a shotgun.

A .410 IS JUST A .45 Long Colt with a lot of freebore? I think the revolvers are sold as 45's but they will "take" a .410. Did they actually bother to close that loophole?

chris
08-04-2008, 8:31 PM
saturday is opening day for A zone. i bet the wardens are gonna get some writers cramp from all the tickets they plan on writing.

Meplat
08-04-2008, 9:06 PM
I have mannaged to cast a few zinc .357 bullets for myself and family. They should set the wardens to scratching their heads. LOL!!!

Ford8N
08-05-2008, 5:25 AM
saturday is opening day for A zone. i bet the wardens are gonna get some writers cramp from all the tickets they plan on writing.

In all my years of bushwacking in the LPNF I've only seen the Warden twice up in the hills. Once on opening day years ago and on opening weekend of Quail season. I go where nobody with 2wd can reach.

chris
08-05-2008, 1:02 PM
In all my years of bushwacking in the LPNF I've only seen the Warden twice up in the hills. Once on opening day years ago and on opening weekend of Quail season. I go where nobody with 2wd can reach.

i rarely see them as it is. but with this new law you can bet they will be out in force to hassle any hunters just because they can do it. i went to the DFG office to get my bear tag. i saw lots of people that are last minute and more than likely do not hand load their ammo. i have not seen any copper ammo loaded anywhere.

fordn8 good luck on your hunting trip.