Prince50 Bullet Button was NEVER legal??!?! (Top Load vs. Bullet Button)

[domokun]

I was at the gun show in San Jose and was surprised to be informed by one of the guys at the J&J Armory booth that the Bullet buttons were NEVER legal in California and it's the reason why Bullet Buttons are no longer being made anymore. He also hinted that I should switch to a Prince50 magazine lock and top load ASAP if I want to keep any AR with evil features on it California legal. :eek::TFH:

The guy also went further to elaborate that the magazine was only meant to be removed for maintenance and thus by removing the magazine from the magazine well on a build with a bullet button using a tool and leaving the magazine well empty for even a split second while at the range or at home, I have an illegally configured AR until I put a magazine back into the magazine well.

Is this guy correct or spreading FUD? I've done my reading about keeping my AR California legal and built my AR using a Bullet Button already with the confidence that it was legal and now am worried that the configuration using a 10 round fixed magazine using a Bullet Button is configured as an assault weapon per the DOJ when I remove the magazine from the magazine well using a tool because I now have a detachable magazine configuration?! :TFH:

:willy_nilly:

Please pardon me while I go hug my Bullet Button AR build for comfort. :coolgleamA:

EDIT: Please pardon my initial posting. It was a bit clouded and unclear. Please make it known that I have no issues with how J&J Armory conducts their business or what they choose to sell. My only disagreement was with their definition of a "detachable magazine" that Gene and the other folks have effectively clarified in the latter portion of this thread. If they happen to have something in stock at the right price, I would have no reservations purchasing the item(s) from them.

[thefifthspeed]

FUD

[ajaffe]

Are they endorsed by the DOJ?

[Josh3239]

No offense, but 600 posts plus you own an OLL and you still don't understand the law and cannot tell truth from FUD?

Bullet buttons to my knowledge continue to be made and a new one was released called the B15.

Very few magazine release locks have been approved by the DOJ, that doesn't make the rest illegal. In fact they are legal by the letter of the law.

The magazine should only be removed for maintenance? That is a gigantic friggin hint that this is FUD 1) You don't need to remove a magazine for maintenance and 2) It doesn't matter if you cleaning or shooting you can NEVER create an AW.

Having the magwell open = an AW was the belief way before the BB was made. The BB was specifically made to remedy that problem.

[Blackwater OPS]

This is why we have :fud: and :90:

[aplinker]

Are they endorsed by the DOJ?

No.

Did you have your morning constitutional endorsed by the DOJ? Does that mean it wasn't legal?

DOJ approves of nothing - they've given up their charter mission (to advise) because they went political and tried to screw everyone over by saying legal things were not. They got their asses handed to them, so now they won't say either way.

[-hanko]

No offense, but 600 posts plus you own an OLL and you still don't understand the law and cannot tell truth from FUD?

Very few magazine release locks have been approved by the DOJ, that doesn't make the rest illegal. In fact they are legal by the letter of the law.
I agree with Josh3239;)

The DOJ is not in the business to approve gun parts. The law prohibits certain gun configurations; if not prohibited, it's legal.

-hanko

[saigon1965]

Who is this from J&J Armory saying this? We still have tomorrow to FUD the guy down.

[technique]

He's a nice guy actually. I talked to him earlier today.

[Blackwater OPS]

Did you get a name by any chance?

[technique]

Anthony

[TKM]

Anthony's gonna remember todays date.

[technique]

Anthony's gonna remember todays date.

Way to scare off another vendor...no wonder the SJ gun show keeps getting smaller and smaller.

[saigon1965]

Way to scare off another vendor...no wonder the SJ gun show keeps getting smaller and smaller.


Vendor is spreading FUD -

[domokun]

No offense, but 600 posts plus you own an OLL and you still don't understand the law and cannot tell truth from FUD?

Bullet buttons to my knowledge continue to be made and a new one was released called the B15.

Very few magazine release locks have been approved by the DOJ, that doesn't make the rest illegal. In fact they are legal by the letter of the law.

The magazine should only be removed for maintenance? That is a gigantic friggin hint that this is FUD 1) You don't need to remove a magazine for maintenance and 2) It doesn't matter if you cleaning or shooting you can NEVER create an AW.

Having the magwell open = an AW was the belief way before the BB was made. The BB was specifically made to remedy that problem.

I'm quite aware of the issues and pretty much summed it up as FUD. However, I was just very alarmed that they would be saying this to potential customers with the CWS booth across the isle. They're the only black rifle vendor at the show using Prince50 magazine locks. CWS and Sonoma Firearms all use bullet buttons.

[BigKevLA]

I went to M B Retting the other day and a salesman there also said that the bullet button is a farce. He said there is a current case where someone was arrested after they dropped their mag. I didn't have time to inquire about the case and where it happened, I just relaying what was said to me. Personally I top load so that there isn't any confusion if any local PD is around.

[saigon1965]

i have to agree.at least the guy is willing to sell that stuff in cali.you guys want to go and bust his balls over this? why not spend your time busting the balls of the shops who don't carry black rifle stuff?



Just need to educate. We'll save ballbusting for the Chief.

[technique]

i have to agree.at least the guy is willing to sell that stuff in cali.you guys want to go and bust his balls over this? why not spend your time busting the balls of the shops who don't carry black rifle stuff?

Yup!!! Hes got lowers and all the other accessories, If he chooses to sell only P50 thats his choice for his business. He shouldn't put down the BB, but if you have a problem with it then shop elsewhere.

[doughboy334]

I bought a Eotech from Tony and the J&J guys last month at the previous SJ Gun show. I agree with technique, if he wants to sell his rifles with a P50, let him.

edit

IIRC from the last time I talked to Tony, he's from Texas and coming up just to get our business while others won't sell to CA is a big plus imo.

[ajaffe]

No.

Did you have your morning constitutional endorsed by the DOJ? Does that mean it wasn't legal?

DOJ approves of nothing - they've given up their charter mission (to advise) because they went political and tried to screw everyone over by saying legal things were not. They got their asses handed to them, so now they won't say either way.

It was more of an actual question than a statement, I have a prince 50 button lock and a b15, both come stating they are not endorsed so I was wondering if the original BB was.

[Blackwater OPS]

It's one thing if the shop wants to spread FUD, but if the employee is doing it without the owners knowledge, the owner should at least be informed and have the chance to correct the problem.

[s2000news]

If the guy wants to sell P50 and not BB thats fine. But to tell someone his setup is illegal, and to claim to be a legit CA seller, thats wrong in my book.

He is causing a person to question his setup, perhaps buying a P50 from him to, again, make is AR CA legal. Great way to sell P50's in stock I guess.

[technique]

He is causing a person to question his setup, perhaps buying a P50 from him to, again, make is AR CA legal. Great way to sell P50's in stock I guess.

I'm quite aware of the issues and pretty much summed it up as FUD. However, I was just very alarmed that they would be saying this to potential customers with the CWS booth across the isle. They're the only black rifle vendor at the show using Prince50 magazine locks. CWS and Sonoma Firearms all use bullet buttons.

He didn't question it. I have talked to Domokun FTF he knows his stuff.


Also this vendor is one of our most "valued" so to say. They are "free America" based. J&J, much like CWS is TX based they help us get stuff like Noveske or RRA or Stag lowers that otherwise would not be shipped to CA by the manufacturers them selves.

I believe some one said "the owner should know about this FUD".

Dude, the owners in TX dropping mags left and right!!!! Do you really think he cares about the ins and outs of CA law? NO! He just may pull out of the CA market like other vendors.

And just one more point! CWS or at least the guy's and gal at their booth weren't all that knowledgeable either.

[Blackwater OPS]

I think Ryan might care, they are closed for today though.

[JandJArmory]

OK, another instance of not listening. I never said that the BB was illegal. I said I preferred the Prince 50. This was my opinion and my advice to others. I also suggested to the couple I was talking to that the keeping the magazine in the rifle was the preferred setup. I suggested to the couple I was talking to that they load the rifle from the top. Now notice I said the couple I was talking to. The OP was not who I was talking to. He was rudly interuppting my conversation with someone else.

Do I like the bullet button no. Is it illegal no. It satisfies all the requirements to make the mag "Perm Fixed". Have I seen the springs get soft and mags fall out.... YEP. But then I have installed hundreds of them.

Don't get all hurt that I don't like the BB. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it as well. If the OP is worried about the legality of his gun then that is his fault not mine. He should have waited his turn and we could have spoken in greater detail. I am not at the shows for legal lectures.

The facts are thus. The DOJ doesn't offer an opinion on the legality of the BB or the P50 for that matter. The DOJ does say that the mag must be fixed, that being either perm or requires a tool for removal out of normal operating time. If the mag is removed from the rifle it is not fixed..... unless of course Issac Newton didn't know what he was talking about:-) You can make your own call. I tend to err on the side of caution when dealing with new customers being introduced to a rifle that 20 minutes before they thought was illegal.

To be safe I recommend removing the upper from the lower before removing the mag. This is because once upper and lower are seperate it is no longer a firearm, only parts.

Keep this in mind when discussing FUD...... In order for you to buy rifles from folks like us, CWS etc..... We all have to have our pasts, presents and futures scrutinized by lots of agencies with 3 letters. If I give out bad advice, I don't loose a rifle, I loose a job, a company and my freedom. Hows that for FUD.

[rod]

Here's my experience...I stopped at the J&J booth at the Del Mar show some time back. I was with my Brother in law and we both were looking for LPK's, mag locks, stocks, and everything else to build up a few rifles. I asked a tall older guy at the booth if they carried Bullet Buttons. Thats it...just a simple question that only required a yes or no answer. Instead we got scolded in front of everyone about how bullet buttons were going to be illegal and we would end up in jail and we should know better and so on. Well, to make a long story short, CWS made some money that day.

I don't care what J&J sells and doesn't sell. I don't care what their opinion is on bullet buttons or wether Elvis is still alive. It's their business and they can run it anyway they want. I take offence to being treated like some little kid and scolded for asking a simple question though.

[JandJArmory]

Rod, it is not our policy to scold, scoff, lecture, pontificate, accuse, dictate or treat you like a kid. We have never said they are illegal, nor have we told someone that they will end up in jail for using the BB. I have on several occasions directed people to others that may have parts I don't including the BB.

I won't tell you how to break the law nor circumnavigate it. The P50 meets the definition of the DOJ for a fixed mag. I don't believe in "Grey Areas" or living Elvis's. The Law is Black and White and Elvis has left the building. If you get a differing opinion then take it and apply or discard as you deem fit. I can get the BB as easily as the Prince 50. I have reasons for suggesting the P50 which are based in fact, logic and reasoning. This is my vocation and I live and love it. This is your money and your freedom you are putting in my hands. I will not put either at risk to make $2.00 more for a device I don't trust 100% or care for that much.

One other thing Rod. I have 40 people a show ask questions like so this means I can just drop mags then....... I can just wind this out and put it back in if the cops come......... Can I stick 30 Round Mags in this............ Can I modify this to make it full auto..............etc etc etc. I have to be very careful what is said and or implied by us and our customers as bad advice in the world of firearms means that the both of us can debate State law in a new shiney pair of bracelets.

[saigon1965]

OK, another instance of not listening. I never said that the BB was illegal. I said I preferred the Prince 50. This was my opinion and my advice to others. I also suggested to the couple I was talking to that the keeping the magazine in the rifle was the preferred setup. I suggested to the couple I was talking to that they load the rifle from the top. Now notice I said the couple I was talking to. The OP was not who I was talking to. He was rudly interuppting my conversation with someone else.

Do I like the bullet button no. Is it illegal no. It satisfies all the requirements to make the mag "Perm Fixed". Have I seen the springs get soft and mags fall out.... YEP. But then I have installed hundreds of them.

Don't get all hurt that I don't like the BB. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it as well. If the OP is worried about the legality of his gun then that is his fault not mine. He should have waited his turn and we could have spoken in greater detail. I am not at the shows for legal lectures.

The facts are thus. The DOJ doesn't offer an opinion on the legality of the BB or the P50 for that matter. The DOJ does say that the mag must be fixed, that being either perm or requires a tool for removal out of normal operating time. If the mag is removed from the rifle it is not fixed..... unless of course Issac Newton didn't know what he was talking about:-) You can make your own call. I tend to err on the side of caution when dealing with new customers being introduced to a rifle that 20 minutes before they thought was illegal.

To be safe I recommend removing the upper from the lower before removing the mag. This is because once upper and lower are seperate it is no longer a firearm, only parts.

Keep this in mind when discussing FUD...... In order for you to buy rifles from folks like us, CWS etc..... We all have to have our pasts, presents and futures scrutinized by lots of agencies with 3 letters. If I give out bad advice, I don't loose a rifle, I loose a job, a company and my freedom. Hows that for FUD.



Thanks for clearing this up -

[technique]

J&J

Your booth was crowded! I'm glad your side of the story came out.

[savageevo]

im sorry I have to put my two cents in. I have to say jandj is a good company but I was also turned off by them when I stopped at the store and asked to purchase the BB button. One of the guys there, forgive me if I forgot there name, said they are also illegal and would not sell them. I really do not go there anymore because of that same comment. why be in the oll scene when you pick and choose what is legal or illegal. Kind of sounding like the DOj if you know what I mean. Even worse Turners. :( I only support the ones that do not spread fud.

[hoffmang]

Please keep in mind though that the classic Prince-50 leads end users to think they can remove the magazine while the upper is attached.

On a bullet button build, when the magazine is out and the upper is attached it is not an AW. The same can not be said of the classic Prince-50.

-Gene

[JandJArmory]

im sorry I have to put my two cents in. I have to say jandj is a good company but I was also turned off by them when I stopped at the store and asked to purchase the BB button. One of the guys there, forgive me if I forgot there name, said they are also illegal and would not sell them. I really do not go there anymore because of that same comment. why be in the oll scene when you pick and choose what is legal or illegal. Kind of sounding like the DOj if you know what I mean. Even worse Turners. :( I only support the ones that do not spread fud.

Ok, let me clear this up once and for all. No.... they are not illegal. If someone says they are illegal..... I don't agree. Without an official DOJ statement then that will have to suffice.

As long as J&J has been in business we have had the BB. We don't order as many as we do P50's. We stopped getting BB for a short period of time when production was stopped by the owner of the company.

What we have stated is "Don't drop mags."

Why be in the OLL scene you ask? I am in the firearms market. I see the AR15 as a God Given Right for you and every Californian as a law abiding citizen of the United States and a mission from on high to bring them to you. I don't choose what is illegal or not, that job is not ours. However, like it or not there is law, and I will advise you as close to the letter and as wisely as I know how as if you break the law out of spit or ignorance, you will no longer be a law abiding citizen regardless of how draconian you believe the laws of your state to be.

[JandJArmory]

Please keep in mind though that the classic Prince-50 leads end users to think they can remove the magazine while the upper is attached.

On a bullet button build, when the magazine is out and the upper is attached it is not an AW. The same can not be said of the classic Prince-50.

-Gene

Gene,

Please quantify this statement. A gun part cannot lead end users to think anything?

[ajaffe]

When you unscrew the Prince50 maglock and you do not top load, you are creating a detachable magazine situation for at least a split second no matter how fast you are at removing the magazine and screwing the set screw back in. With the bullet button you cannot create a detachable magazine situation since you have to re-manipulate the button with a tool everytime.

I think this is more of a Top Load vs. Bullet Button type argument.

[Olav]

I was at the gun show in San Jose and was surprised to be informed by one of the guys at the J&J Armory booth that the Bullet buttons were NEVER legal in California and it's the reason why Bullet Buttons are no longer being made anymore. He also hinted that I should switch to a Prince50 magazine lock and top load ASAP if I want to keep any AR with evil features on it California legal. :eek::TFH:

The guy also went further to elaborate that the magazine was only meant to be removed for maintenance and thus by removing the magazine from the magazine well on a build with a bullet button using a tool and leaving the magazine well empty for even a split second while at the range or at home, I have an illegally configured AR until I put a magazine back into the magazine well.

Is this guy correct or spreading FUD? I've done my reading about keeping my AR California legal and built my AR using a Bullet Button already with the confidence that it was legal and now am worried that the configuration using a 10 round fixed magazine using a Bullet Button is configured as an assault weapon per the DOJ when I remove the magazine from the magazine well using a tool because I now have a detachable magazine configuration?! :TFH:

:willy_nilly:

Please pardon me while I go hug my Bullet Button AR build for comfort. :coolgleamA:

I was at the Cow Palace Gun Show in April and a guy at the J&J Armory booth said the same crap to me.

I went to the CWS booth and bought a BB and a POF lower from them with no bs.

[JandJArmory]

When you unscrew the Prince50 maglock and you do not top load, you are creating a detachable magazine situation for at least a split second no matter how fast you are at removing the magazine and screwing the set screw back in. With the bullet button you cannot create a detachable magazine situation since you have to re-manipulate the button with a tool everytime.

I think this is more of a Top Load vs. Bullet Button type argument.


Not so. A magazine detached is............ a magazine detached. If it is no longer in the lower reciever it is by it's nature detached. For a split second or eternity. What we have to review here is the "tool for removal" clause. It doesn't specify the neccesity for use of a tool to re-install. If this is the logic then either both are legal all the time regardless of the state of magazine absence or not at all.

The point of this thread was to clarify what was and is being advised to customers by employees of J&J at the San Jose Gun Show not to debate the idosyncracies of the California Gun Laws. If you find our advice perplexing and/or offensive then please direct further questions to your Firearms Attorneys or beg the Cal DOJ for clarification. We will continue to advise customers towards the P50and top loading within state lines. We will gladly supply BB to our customers when we have them in stock.

We appologize for any confusion.

[ajaffe]

Oh please by all means I am not trying to start a hub-bub, I was just trying to throw something else out there to see what exactly you told them. So do you recommend top loading only then with the sale and installation of your Prince50 maglocks?

[gd-bh]

Because there is so much FUD about this subject, I think many people, myself included, can become confused. My "understanding" of how the BB concept works is this:

I'm using a BB, because I have an "evil features" configuration. Thus, I can only use magazines with a capacity of 10 or less. I can utilize my tool to drop the magazine at any time because the weapon at no time, not even for a split second, exists in a state that has the capability to remove the magazine without the use of a tool, whether the magazine is in the weapon, or out of the weapon.

So, would my understanding of the law/configuration requirements keep me from becoming bubba's girlfriend, or do I get a shiny set of bracelets if I don't top load?

[Guntech]

I have never encountered problems for dropping mags at the range

[Hopi]

Not so. A magazine detached is............ a magazine detached. If it is no longer in the lower reciever it is by it's nature detached. For a split second or eternity. What we have to review here is the "tool for removal" clause. It doesn't specify the neccesity for use of a tool to re-install. If this is the logic then either both are legal all the time regardless of the state of magazine absence or not at all.

.....

We appologize for any confusion.

No.
With the BB, the receiver is modified/altered such as to NOT be able to accept a detachable magazine. At all times, when a receiver is modified with a BB, whether a magazine is installed or not, the receiver is incapable of accepting a detachable ('detachable' as defined by law) magazine.


With the P50, until the user has screwed the magazine in place thereby 'fixing' it, the receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines. If a receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines, it cannot simultaneously have evil features.

I think the problem lies in your confusion of the definition of 'detachable' as a term of function, with the CA DOJ legal definition of 'detachable' with respects to magazines.

[JandJArmory]

I was at the Cow Palace Gun Show in April and a guy at the J&J Armory booth said the same crap to me.

I went to the CWS booth and bought a BB and a POF lower from them with no bs.

If all I wanted was your cash Olav I wouldn't bother trying to give well thought out advice. Remember, I can get the BB without issue. It seems all these statements about "Crap" are really people wanting to have their cakes and eat them too.

Don't do Drugs, don't steal cars, don't make machine guns......... these are also "crap" it seems. I will not make you feel all warm and fuzzy to get your cash. Understanding the law, it's folly, faults and it's enigmas, I will advise you accordingly. I will not blow smoke for your convenience as it's not fair to you.

Please stop and take a look around the firearms environment. We are fighting an uphill battle to bring these rifles to you. We place our business, family and freedoms on the line to translate the confusing jibberish and damn right opaqueness of Cal Gun laws. We get no clarification from those who wish to shut our doors so we go about advising the end users to our best understanding. When the doors close on us they close on you. It would seem silly to ignore advice given freely by those who fight this battle daily in order for you to satisfy some innate desire to own something that may or may not comply with the laws of the State in which you reside.

The truth may be inconvenient......... knowing the truth is never inconvenient. We do our best to give you the truth and convenience.

[technique]

A BB is installed in the weapon with or with out a mag.


Edit: perfectly stated!

No.
With the BB, the receiver is modified/altered such as to NOT be able to accept a detachable magazine. At all times, when a receiver is modified with a BB, whether a magazine is installed or not, the receiver is incapable of accepting a detachable ('detachable' as defined by law) magazine.


With the P50, until the user has screwed the magazine in place thereby 'fixing' it, the receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines. If a receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines, it cannot simultaneously have evil features.

I think the problem lies in your confusion of the definition of 'detachable' as a term of function, with the CA DOJ legal definition of 'detachable' with respects to magazines.

[live2offroad]

The bullet button package flat out states that the button has NOT been endorsed by the DOJ. Further, they are correct when they say you are NEVER to remove the mag unless you have first removed the "evil" features of the gun. If at any time you remove the mag with said features attached you are in violation of the law. Do not think that the "use of a tool" makes pulling the mag legal, it does not. Rifles with pistol grip, or bayonet lug, or flash hider, or other must have a "FIXED MAGAZINE"..

That being said, I use one and simply understand that I will never - ever - be seen in public with the mag removed..

-Peter

[CavTrooper]

This is insane.

[ajaffe]

You have me confused now, the bayo lug is a Federal ban that already eclipsed. The pistol grip, flash hider, and collapsible stock are the big items in CA.

[M. Sage]

OK, another instance of not listening. I never said that the BB was illegal. I said I preferred the Prince 50. This was my opinion and my advice to others. I also suggested to the couple I was talking to that the keeping the magazine in the rifle was the preferred setup. I suggested to the couple I was talking to that they load the rifle from the top. Now notice I said the couple I was talking to. The OP was not who I was talking to. He was rudly interuppting my conversation with someone else.

Actually, if you ask Bweise about that, he'll tell you that the "don't remove the magazine" thing came from the earlier OLL days. Dropping the mag out of a BB-equipped gun isn't considered "unsafe" by the people who've been at the center of the OLL movement from the beginning.

The facts are thus. The DOJ doesn't offer an opinion on the legality of the BB or the P50 for that matter. The DOJ does say that the mag must be fixed, that being either perm or requires a tool for removal out of normal operating time. If the mag is removed from the rifle it is not fixed..... unless of course Issac Newton didn't know what he was talking about:-) You can make your own call. I tend to err on the side of caution when dealing with new customers being introduced to a rifle that 20 minutes before they thought was illegal.

Problem is that nowhere in the law does it say "fixed". It says "detachable". Even when you drop a mag with a BB, it's still not detachable without a tool.

To be safe I recommend removing the upper from the lower before removing the mag. This is because once upper and lower are seperate it is no longer a firearm, only parts.

I know what you mean to say, but an AR lower receiver is always a firearm from a legal standpoint. Removing the upper means it's no longer a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle, but it's still a firearm.

But again, that method is the "old way of thinking".

Keep this in mind when discussing FUD...... In order for you to buy rifles from folks like us, CWS etc..... We all have to have our pasts, presents and futures scrutinized by lots of agencies with 3 letters. If I give out bad advice, I don't loose a rifle, I loose a job, a company and my freedom. Hows that for FUD.

I realize that alphabet soups spend their time intimidating dealers, and it makes me mad at them. I just wanted to point out some things. I'm not posting this to be mean, or try to knock you down.

[Hopi]

The bullet button package flat out states that the button has NOT been endorsed by the DOJ. Further, they are correct when they say you are NEVER to remove the mag unless you have first removed the "evil" features of the gun. If at any time you remove the mag with said features attached you are in violation of the law. Do not think that the "use of a tool" makes pulling the mag legal, it does not. Rifles with pistol grip, or bayonet lug, or flash hider, or other must have a "FIXED MAGAZINE"..

That being said, I use one and simply understand that I will never - ever - be seen in public with the mag removed..

-Peter

Although you error on the side of caution, this post is also inaccurate.
When you've modified your receiver with a BB, you can use what ever evil features you'd like AND have an 'empty' magwell. Again, the BB renders a firearm incapable of accepting detachable magazines, this is according to the letter of CA law and each definition has been set by the CA DOJ.

[JandJArmory]

No.
With the BB, the receiver is modified/altered such as to NOT be able to accept a detachable magazine. At all times, when a receiver is modified with a BB, whether a magazine is installed or not, the receiver is incapable of accepting a detachable ('detachable' as defined by law) magazine.


With the P50, until the user has screwed the magazine in place thereby 'fixing' it, the receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines. If a receiver is capable of accepting detachable magazines, it cannot simultaneously have evil features.

I think the problem lies in your confusion of the definition of 'detachable' as a term of function, with the CA DOJ legal definition of 'detachable' with respects to magazines.

You are describing a "detachable magazine" as a noun. Detach is a verb to unfasten and separate; disengage; disunite... a state of being if you will and magazine is the noun.

The BB works on the premise that you also have to use a tool to remove there by fixing it. The receiver can still accept a magazine! When the mag spring on a P50 is removed the receiver cannot accept a magazine as the latch fails to engage the magazine as stated in the instructions for use and the magazine either falls out due to gravity or is pushed upwards through the lower receiver by user manipulation.

The BB accepts a magazine into the receiver without use of a tool or superflous user manipulation.

[ajaffe]

The law does not state capable of accepting a magazine period, it accepts accepting a detachable magazine.
Again, this is a top load vs BB discussion, not a P50 vs BB.

[live2offroad]

You have me confused now, the bayo lug is a Federal ban that already eclipsed. The pistol grip, flash hider, and collapsible stock are the big items in CA.



It's really not that confusing at all..
As I said,
If you have an AR that has any one of the features considered "evil" (of which the pistol grip is one), and I mean even just one of them, your AR must have a "FIXED" or permanently installed magazine, at all times. Said magazine is supposed to be completely un-removable, period..

The instructions that come with the bullet button make it very clear that it is the the owners responsibility to never remove the Mag while any of evil features are attached. This is just not that hard to understand.

-Peter

[SJgunguy24]

Bullet Button or Prince 50,Who care's. Buy what you like and leave it on the table if you don't. I have to say thanks to whomever came up with the idea for both. We can have our "evil black rifles" with all cool stuff and stay out of jail.

I was at both tables (J&J and CWS) and had plesent experiances with both vendors. I bought a Saiga from CWS and if the funds would have allowed me too I would have picked up an AR from J&J. I'm glad that we have vendors who are willing to configure those rifles and sell them at reasonable prices.:patriot::gunsmilie: If you want a bare bones AR,here you go. You want a friggn' space gun Here you go. Remember those P.O.S FAB 10 lowers:eek:

[CavTrooper]

You are describing a "detachable magazine" as a noun. Detach is a verb to unfasten and separate; disengage; disunite... a state of being if you will and magazine is the noun.

The BB works on the premise that you also have to use a tool to remove there by fixing it..

Thats what the law says isnt it? Removed using a tool? Kinda like the SKS with the "fixed" mag?

The receiver can still accept a magazine! .

Wouldnt that be an ATTACHABLE magazine?

When the mag spring on a P50 is removed the receiver cannot accept a magazine as the latch fails to engage the magazine as stated in the instructions for use and the magazine either falls out due to gravity or is pushed upwards through the lower receiver by user manipulation. .

Wouldnt that be super bad no-no, an attachable AND detachable magazine, no tool required?

The BB accepts a magazine into the receiver without use of a tool or superflous user manipulation.

Therefore it accepts ATTACHABLE magazines right? Needs a tool to be DETACHABLE?

Im just reading the words of the law though... maybe Im wrong.

[Hopi]

You are describing a "detachable magazine" as a noun. Detach is a verb to unfasten and separate; disengage; disunite... a state of being if you will and magazine is the noun.

The BB works on the premise that you also have to use a tool to remove there by fixing it. The receiver can still accept a magazine! When the mag spring on a P50 is removed the receiver cannot accept a magazine as the latch fails to engage the magazine as stated in the instructions for use and the magazine either falls out due to gravity or is pushed upwards through the lower receiver by user manipulation.

The BB accepts a magazine into the receiver without use of a tool or superflous user manipulation.

"Detachable magazine" according to CA law is a noun. It is "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

With respect to CA AW laws, the ability of a receiver to accept a magazine is only relevant in the context of the magazine's ability to be detached. If a magazine, when inserted into the receiver, requires a tool for removal, it does not matter how the receiver accepted that magazine in the first place.

[CavTrooper]

It's really not that confusing at all..
As I said,
If you have an AR that has any one of the features considered "evil" (of which the pistol grip is one), and I mean even just one of them, your AR must have a "FIXED" or permanently installed magazine, at all times. Said magazine is supposed to be completely un-removable, period..

The instructions that come with the bullet button make it very clear that it is the the owners responsibility to never remove the Mag while any of evil features are attached. This is just not that hard to understand.

-Peter

Please show us the law where this is stated.

[Hopi]

It's really not that confusing at all..
As I said,
If you have an AR that has any one of the features considered "evil" (of which the pistol grip is one), and I mean even just one of them, your AR must have a "FIXED" or permanently installed magazine, at all times. Said magazine is supposed to be completely un-removable, period..

The instructions that come with the bullet button make it very clear that it is the the owners responsibility to never remove the Mag while any of evil features are attached. This is just not that hard to understand.

-Peter

Please re-read this thread. Please re-read the previous 1000 BB threads. Please investigate your confusion further. The instructions that come with the BB are CYA advice.

A BB modifies the receiver such that it cannot accept a detachable magazine. It is perfectly legal to have a rifle with evil features, a BB-equiped receiver, AND an empty magwell......


If it makes it easier to understand........once you place a magazine into a BB-equiped receiver, it MAGICALLY (according to the CA DOJ Definition and CA LAW) becomes an un-detachable magazine. Voila!

[technique]

This is a great thread. :D Threads like this educate noobs more so then most. They cover all the "fud" anyone ever heard. Good stuff.:lurk5:

[ajaffe]

It's really not that confusing at all..
As I said,
If you have an AR that has any one of the features considered "evil" (of which the pistol grip is one), and I mean even just one of them, your AR must have a "FIXED" or permanently installed magazine, at all times. Said magazine is supposed to be completely un-removable, period..

The instructions that come with the bullet button make it very clear that it is the the owners responsibility to never remove the Mag while any of evil features are attached. This is just not that hard to understand.

-Peter

I can remove a sealed magwell magazine with a dremel tool, I just choose to be more efficient and use a bullet tip or allen wrench tool instead.

[hoffmang]

Let me attempt to clear up two issues. Nothing I'm saying here should be taken to say anything disparaging about J&J. I too think the first post in this thread was a bit misguided and I'm glad you guys are here responding and more importantly selling OLLs and getting the message out.

With that out of the way, let me clarify my post earlier in the thread. There are an unfortunate though not too small minority think that they don't have to top load the Classic Prince-50. The confusion comes partially because the bullet button exists and partially because of the term in the regulations, "with a tool." Those incorrect and confused end users think that because it requires a tool to loosen the allen screw on the Classic Prince-50 that they can actually loosen that screw to load magazines. They can not as that creates an AW for the time the screw is loose. I was saying that in many ways the BB is arguably safer is that - as long as the bullet button remains installed - you can not accidentally manufacture an AW.
That brings me to my second point. Assume an OLL AR with features and a properly installed bullet button. At no point in time does that firearm become an AW - even with no magazine in the magazine well. It has everything to do with the actual definitions in the CCR.


11 C.C.R. 5469 (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.



12276.1. (a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

At no point in time - even with the magazine well empty - does a rifle with a bullet button have the capacity to accept any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.

Said another way (and as I put it in the original post about bullet buttons) the law does not say "12276.1. (a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept an attachable or detachable magazine and any one of the following:."

To take the position that this is not a correct interpretation of the law leads all SKS rifles in California to be at all times "SKS with detachable magazine" and thus banned.

I hope that clears this up a bit.

-Gene

[hoffmang]

You are describing a "detachable magazine" as a noun. Detach is a verb to unfasten and separate; disengage; disunite... a state of being if you will and magazine is the noun.

The BB works on the premise that you also have to use a tool to remove there by fixing it. The receiver can still accept a magazine! When the mag spring on a P50 is removed the receiver cannot accept a magazine as the latch fails to engage the magazine as stated in the instructions for use and the magazine either falls out due to gravity or is pushed upwards through the lower receiver by user manipulation.

The BB accepts a magazine into the receiver without use of a tool or superflous user manipulation.

Detach doesn't mean detach. "detachable magazine" is a defined term under California law as I explained above. I'd suggest you read the OAL petition - and as painful as it might be, all the way through:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/OAL-280-Suspension-Notice-2007-09-21-w-Attachments.pdf

-Gene

[live2offroad]

I can remove a sealed magwell magazine with a dremel tool, I just choose to be more efficient and use a bullet tip or allen wrench tool instead.


Um.. Yes you can do that, you're just not supposed to. We all speed too but this does make it legal. I have read the law and other related rules and it seems pretty clear whats legal and whats not. If you want to pull your mag in public and then defend that action with a "but I used a tool" defense feel free. As for me, my understanding is clear. Even though I have a BB installed, I'll be leaving my mag in place.


(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon
without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the
barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a
detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(b) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose in
exempting pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic
target shooting events. Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned
by the International Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the
national governing body for international shooting competition in the
United States, and that are used for Olympic target shooting
purposes at the time the act adding this subdivision is enacted, and
that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault weapon"
pursuant to this section are exempt, as provided in subdivision (c).

[JandJArmory]

Please re-read this thread. Please re-read the previous 1000 BB threads. Please investigate your confusion further. The instructions that come with the BB are CYA advice.
A BB modifies the receiver such that it cannot accept a detachable magazine. It is perfectly legal to have a rifle with evil features, a BB-equiped receiver, AND an empty magwell......


If it makes it easier to understand........once you place a magazine into a BB-equiped receiver, it MAGICALLY (according to the CA DOJ Definition and CA LAW) becomes an un-detachable magazine. Voila!


The advise that we give is also CYA advice. If there were not laws regulating the detachable/attachable magazine issue it would be a moot point. It is sad that we must have to caution those who wish to purchase what is guaranteed to us by our Founding Fathers as a right, against nebulious regulations and law but alas.... we must. So.... that being said.... we at J&J Armory recommend using the P50. We recommend top loading in the state. I find it sad that despite the passion of those who have come out tonight to debate, the State of California has still been able to run over all of us.

We will continue to supply the best rifles at the best prices. Our opinions regarding our rights and priviledges as gun owning Americans are very much in agreement. It seems that regrettablely only the flavor of the ugly CYA advice is different.

I will continue to bring you all Black Rifles and fight the good fight. I err on cautions side for both our well being.

See you at the shows now it's time to relax a little....

[Hopi]

Um.. Yes you can do that, you're just not supposed to. We all speed too but this does make it legal. I have read the law and other related rules and it seems pretty clear whats legal and whats not. If you want to pull your mag in public and then defend that action with a "but I used a tool" defense feel free. As for me, my understanding is clear. Even though I have a BB installed, I'll be leaving my mag in place.

No offense, but what is clear is that you're confident in your interpretation and your understanding is certainly deficient. I don't think you comprehend the function of the BB.

Curiously, why did you install a BB if you believe that it functions no differently than a P50 with respect to the law?

[Hopi]

The advise that we give is also CYA advice. If there were not laws regulating the detachable/attachable magazine issue it would be a moot point. It is sad that we must have to caution those who wish to purchase what is guaranteed to us by our Founding Fathers as a right, against nebulious regulations and law but alas.... we must. So.... that being said.... we at J&J Armory recommend using the P50. We recommend top loading in the state. I find it sad that despite the passion of those who have come out tonight to debate, the State of California has still been able to run over all of us.

We will continue to supply the best rifles at the best prices. Our opinions regarding our rights and priviledges as gun owning Americans are very much in agreement. It seems that regrettablely only the flavor of the ugly CYA advice is different.

I will continue to bring you all Black Rifles and fight the good fight. I err on cautions side for both our well being.

See you at the shows now it's time to relax a little....

I agree with everything you just posted. It is your business and you're free to recommend/advise your customers as you'd like.

CYA advice is always welcome considering it is absent of FUD. Thanks for continuing to service CA citizens, we need all the help we can get!

[JandJArmory]

I agree with everything you just posted. It is your business and you're free to recommend/advise your customers as you'd like.

CYA advice is always welcome considering it is absent of FUD. Thanks for continuing to service CA citizens, we need all the help we can get!

Opinion can never be absent of FUD. Someone will always consider something you've said as FUD:)

Now do you mind explaining what the hell FUD is........... we think the whole FUD talk is FUD:D

Best

The J&J Crew (NOR CAL DIVISION)

[doughboy334]

well this thread got heated up over a couple hours, lol

[ajaffe]

When this is all said and done, I will be MORE inclined to purchase from JandJ since he has taken the time to shoot the bull with us regarding this topic. That alone warrants a purchase of some kind, maybe not a bullet button, but something.

[Hopi]

Opinion can never be absent of FUD. Someone will always consider something you've said as FUD:)

Now do you mind explaining what the hell FUD is........... we think the whole FUD talk is FUD:D

Best

The J&J Crew (NOR CAL DIVISION)

Well, fortunately or not, the only opinions that count in this discussion are from either the CA DOJ, or the CA judicial branch. These opinion's forged the genesis of the BB....ask Gene, it was his idea.


And...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt
Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a "tactic" of rhetoric used in sales, marketing, public relations[1][2], and illiberal democracies. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative (and vague) information........

[JandJArmory]

When this is all said and done, I will be MORE inclined to purchase from JandJ since he has taken the time to shoot the bull with us regarding this topic. That alone warrants a purchase of some kind, maybe not a bullet button, but something.

LOL:Ivan:

[live2offroad]

No offense, but what is clear is that you're confident in your interpretation and your understanding is certainly deficient. I don't think you comprehend the function of the BB.

Curiously, why did you install a BB if you believe that it functions no differently than a P50 with respect to the law?


No offense taken, your rifle is your business, and so is how you choose to interpret the rules.. I do believe I understand the rules of the game we have to play in this state, and I certainly "get" the idea behind the BB. What I do not understand is how some folks continue to feel that there is some lack of clarity in the premise of fixed mag and the rules relating to it..

As for my BB installation, well it only took one trip to the range with a loose Allen screw (left that way after a break down and rebuild) for me to see the benefit of the BB.. I can never forget to tighten that little screw again, my rifle permanently requires a tool for mag release now..

-Peter

[robitrocks]

Wow. This thread is great. :banghead: Lol.

[Hopi]

No offense taken, your rifle is your business, and so is how you choose to interpret the rules..


As for my BB installation, well it only took one trip to the range with a loose Allen screw (left that way after a break down and rebuild) for me to see the benefit of the BB.. I can never forget to tighten that little screw again, my rifle permanently requires a tool for mag release now..

-Peter

Oh, the extra safeguard is nice and makes it forget-proof. I get it.

You edited to add this:
I do believe I understand the rules of the game we have to play in this state, and I certainly "get" the idea behind the BB. What I do not understand is how some folks continue to feel that there is some lack of clarity in the premise of fixed mag and the rules relating to it..
I think the lack of clarity is yours, again, re-read ALL of the available info regarding the BB. There are clear definitions from the DOJ addressing each aspect of this discussion. Clarity will be found by reviewing all of the information.

And for the record, I run neither the BB or the P50....all my mags drop free...:chris:

[ajaffe]

My envy for you falls freely too.

JandJ: I am glad you caught that one :).

[MonsterMan]

Do you guys at J&J encourage "Featureless" builds and keeping the mags detachable as the rifle was designed? Or do you only sell fixed mag rifles?

Seems like a featureless build is a pretty safe way to go. ;)

[jeffyboy]

Do you guys at J&J encourage "Featureless" builds and keeping the mags detachable as the rifle was designed? Or do you only sell fixed mag rifles?

Seems like a featureless build is a pretty safe way to go. ;)

I was just thinking about that...and the "MAN" beats me to it! :D

[JandJArmory]

My envy for you falls freely too.

JandJ: I am glad you caught that one :).

Now we just have to discuss your avatar. You know Man City is Manchesters real team:D

[ajaffe]

Now we just have to discuss your avatar. You know Man City is Manchesters real team:D

They have laid the stick on us quite a bit in the Derbys, but its who lifts the cup that really matters :). Now that you said that, if you saw a 6'10" 290 pound guy perusing your selections at the last Del Mar show wearing a 99 Blue Away Manchester United top and a yellow Padres hat, then you saw me.

[JandJArmory]

They have laid the stick on us quite a bit in the Derbys, but its who lifts the cup that really matters :).


And so it is in life......

Good Night

[savageevo]

hey j&j , can you answer monstermans question. I would like to know what is your stand on his product. Hey Monster, just got to say I love your products. I am still waiting on your fal MM. :D

[dfletcher]

Gene,

Aren't we basically stating that an AR with a BB installed has the capacity to accept a fixed magazine only; that with a BB installed it does not have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. That the magazine well may be empty is of no consequence.

It seems to me the easiest way to demonstrate this is with a BB'd AR and an MMG'd AR, each with an empty magazine well. Take a single 10 round mag, pop it in the MMG'd AR and remove it - a detachable magazine. Now take that same 10 round mag and pop it in the BB'd AR and remove it - with a tool. Which means that BB'd AR can not accept a detachable magazine. The difference is the gun, not the magazine

[aplinker]

Is it 2007 again?

Let me state a few very simple premises that are absolute facts
1.) There is no definition of whether a magazine is detachable or not - the concern is with the rifle
2.) there is no definition of what a "fixed" magazine rifle is. The only definition in the penal code is for a rifle that is NOT CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE is defined (as one that requires a tool).
3.) As long as the rifle does not fit the definition of "capable to accept a detachable magazine" (i.e., requires a tool) that rifle does not then require the elimination of all "features."

It's a simple if... then... argument that gets twisted when people try to twist the definition for what a rifle is capable (or more importantly, incapable) of doing.

dfletcher, that's exactly what Gene is saying. The definition does not regulate magazines, but solely the operation of detachment from the rifle. If that action requires a tool (and your capacity is less than 10rds) you're free to include features.

Lastly, TECHNIQUE, I seem to recall spending an entire evening educating you and your co-worker about this... I'm thrilled to see your current stance. :D




J&J Armoury - I'm glad you're on-board with selling OLLs and it's clear the OP misunderstood the discussion, however it appears your method of advising people isn't based on the legal argument, but on the idea that propriety is the best course of action. Here's my take on how to inform someone of the legalities: I try to outline for each individual the exact argument of why it can be clearly articulated something is legal, and then tell them why they might want to consider not acting to that full capability. Everyone has a tolerance level and each individual should be given the resources to make their own decision how far to act.

I think the knee-jerk reaction is that, when a shop advises something short of the full capability of what's legal, it has the connotation of trying to restrict freedom for the sake of a quick sale and CYA. I'm NOT saying that's what's happening, but that's what I believe people are reacting toward. It feels like a betrayal of what we stand for.

[thedrickel]

What's the problem? The BB is still Iggy approved.

nFq1nduK1hk

[s2000news]

Just reading this, I don't think J&J will be a place to spend money for me. I will be using a BB and not a P50 because of the fact you can not have a detachable magazine with a BB, it is always 'fixed' and requires a 'tool' to remove the mag. From what I read in this thread, a few members ran into problems with simple questions at J&J. Not sure why. Just because you don't sell it, doesn't mean you can't explain WHY your product is better and why another is not the correct choice. A simple 'its illegal' won't do. Tell me why.

Not only do I feel comfortable with a BB, so does my local LEOs.

[macguyver77]

What's the problem? The BB is still Iggy approved.

nFq1nduK1hk


When did this air?

[spsellars]

When did this air?

IIRC it was March 18th. It's still on cbs5.com, but you have to search for it.

[technique]

Lastly, TECHNIQUE, I seem to recall spending an entire evening educating you and your co-worker about this... I'm thrilled to see your current stance. :D






Yes sir! :D More BB's are sold at our shop now then ever. The BB is perfectly legal. Most people that come in can't even begin to wrap their head around the concept. People still ask for the "DOJ letter of approval" on all the products for OLL's.....I just say "when you find one let me know".



Lastly....I'm glad both sides were involved here. For the most part, folks were so eager to rip some one a new one, with only hearing one side of the story.

[domokun]

Original post updated. Please see it for clarification on why this thread was started.

[tenpercentfirearms]

The BB works on the premise that you also have to use a tool to remove there by fixing it. The receiver can still accept a magazine! When the mag spring on a P50 is removed the receiver cannot accept a magazine as the latch fails to engage the magazine as stated in the instructions for use and the magazine either falls out due to gravity or is pushed upwards through the lower receiver by user manipulation.

I didn't see this addressed, but I believe this is a potentially illegal situation. If you do not have the Prince50 locked in place, even without a spring, it still meets the definition of a detachable magazine. Why? If you simply hold the magazine in place with your hand, once the magazine is removed without the use of a tool, it is a detachable magazine. If the spring is absent, the magazine can be locked into place simply by pusing the magazine latch over to hold the magazine. Despite the fact that the magazine might soon drop free after firing, that still certainly meets the defintion of a detachable magazine as no use of a tool was required to remove the magazine.

Quite simply, with or without a spring, when the Prince50 is installed, the set screw can never be loosened or removed. Period.

Also, the law clearly states "A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:". Note that J&J says that the Prince50 cannot accept a magazine. This is flawed logic as you have to take into account the entire statement. "Capacity to accept a detachable magazine." A detachable magazine is defined as a magazine that does not require the use of a tool to remove. There is nothing illegal about the Bullet Button accepting a fixed magazine. There is everything illegal about the Prince50 accepting a detachable magazine. Again, detachable magazine is definted as a magazine that does not require the use of a tool to remove. I can't say it clearly enough, when you simply use your hand to remove a Prince50 equipped magazine from the magazine well because there is no spring or you simply push the button without a spring and the magazine drops free, it could easily be argued in court you just committed a felony.

The point of all of these systems is a tool must be used every single time in order to avoid meeting the definition of a detachable magazine. If you use the tool and then can use your fingers or hand, illegal.

Personally, I give customers the opposite advice as J&J. I advocate the Bullet Button with the clear instructions that as long as you do not screw with the Bullet Button (aka unscrew it or put something in there that stays in there) and DO NOT INSERT A LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINE, you can't make that rifle illegal. I find the Bullet Button much easier and safer to reload and operate and I have never seen a problem of weakened springs personally.

The interesting thing is I still sell plenty of Prince50s online and if a customer wants a Prince50 in the shop, I sell it to them without reservations. I also clearly state to them that while they are in the State of California that screw cannot be loosened or removed.

In the end the Prince50 vs. Bullet Button debate or even the B15 debate is worthless. Why? Prince50 is making all three devices and gets all of the money! :D

Of course if you really want to be "safe", go with a MonsterMan Grip! :p

[Blackwater OPS]

Personally, I give customers the opposite advice as J&J. I advocate the Bullet Button with the clear instructions that as long as you do not screw with the Bullet Button (aka unscrew it or put something in there that stays in there) and DO NOT INSERT A LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINE, you can't make that rifle illegal. I find the Bullet Button much easier and safer to reload and operate and I have never seen a problem of weakened springs personally.

Yup, and also, how exactly do you clear a jammed AR with a Prince 50....without breaking the law?

[scotthmt]

I heard a story of some female officer biting off her nails and using it as a tool to pop out the mag with a bullet button and it was illegal because of such?

[Hopi]

I heard a story of some female officer biting off her nails and using it as a tool to pop out the mag with a bullet button and it was illegal because of such?

This takes the cake....

[tenpercentfirearms]

I heard a story of some female officer biting off her nails and using it as a tool to pop out the mag with a bullet button and it was illegal because of such?

Then she manufactured an assault weapon. I cannot remove the magazine with any of my body parts. If I have to use her nails to remove the magazine, I am quite literally and figuratively using a tool to remove the magazine.

Can you believe it, for once I gave a straight answer instead of acting like I heard the same thing from my brother's uncle's cousin's baby's mama's homie. I don't have a brother by the way.

[1919_4_ME]

Then.....there was this one time at band camp....

[Shane916]

I heard a story of some female officer biting off her nails and using it as a tool to pop out the mag with a bullet button and it was illegal because of such?

The real question is... do you believe it?

[Fjold]

OK, another instance of not listening. I never said that the BB was illegal. I said I preferred the Prince 50. This was my opinion and my advice to others. I also suggested to the couple I was talking to that the keeping the magazine in the rifle was the preferred setup. I suggested to the couple I was talking to that they load the rifle from the top. Now notice I said the couple I was talking to. The OP was not who I was talking to. He was rudly interuppting my conversation with someone else.

Do I like the bullet button no. Is it illegal no. It satisfies all the requirements to make the mag "Perm Fixed". Have I seen the springs get soft and mags fall out.... YEP. But then I have installed hundreds of them.

Don't get all hurt that I don't like the BB. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it as well. If the OP is worried about the legality of his gun then that is his fault not mine. He should have waited his turn and we could have spoken in greater detail. I am not at the shows for legal lectures.

The facts are thus. The DOJ doesn't offer an opinion on the legality of the BB or the P50 for that matter. The DOJ does say that the mag must be fixed, that being either perm or requires a tool for removal out of normal operating time. If the mag is removed from the rifle it is not fixed..... unless of course Issac Newton didn't know what he was talking about:-) You can make your own call. I tend to err on the side of caution when dealing with new customers being introduced to a rifle that 20 minutes before they thought was illegal.

To be safe I recommend removing the upper from the lower before removing the mag. This is because once upper and lower are seperate it is no longer a firearm, only parts.

Keep this in mind when discussing FUD...... In order for you to buy rifles from folks like us, CWS etc..... We all have to have our pasts, presents and futures scrutinized by lots of agencies with 3 letters. If I give out bad advice, I don't loose a rifle, I loose a job, a company and my freedom. Hows that for FUD.

No one has mentioned this but the lower is always a firearm. Separated it is not a semi-automatic rifle but it is always a firearm. If a lower by itself was not a firearm, you wouldn't have to DROS it.

[bridgeport]

The operative phase is the removal phase. With an allen screw in "out position" the mag release can be depressed without a tool. With the BB, the mag "automatically" is in a position where it requires a tool to remove.... this is the difference.... the "auto locking" feature... therefore it requires a tool to remove the mag at all times whether said mag is "in" or "out". This is a subtle, yet defining difference.

[SchooBaka]

Phew!
I was at the gunshow today wearing my calguns.net hat. Glad I did'nt ask J&J if they had any ak bb's; I just found this thread.
IMHO, they are a private business and as such, should be allowed to conduct business at they see fit.
It was nice to walk in the door for once and see ar's and ak's lined up for sale.
It's been a few years since I've been to the SJ gunshow; so if they were there last year, pardon my ignorance.

Edit: BTW, here's where to get the calguns.net hat you commented on.
http://gunsr4.us/

[bdsmchs]

Iggy's on TV, demonstrating the bullet button and complaining about it BECAUSE IT IS LEGAL.

If that's not an endorsement for the bullet button, I don't know what is.

[technique]

No one has mentioned this but the lower is always a firearm. Separated it is not a semi-automatic rifle but it is always a firearm. If a lower by itself was not a firearm, you wouldn't have to DROS it.


Yes someone did

[Fjold]

Yes someone did

Sorry, missed it.

[savageevo]

What happen with j&j, did they bail on us. They never did answer my question on the MM grip. Maybe they think that is illegal as well.:boat:

[PIRATE14]

And just one more point! CWS or at least the guy's and gal at their booth weren't all that knowledgeable either.

Gonna have to enlighten me on this one...........gotta make sure my guys and girls are sharp......

[JandJArmory]

What happen with j&j, did they bail on us. They never did answer my question on the MM grip. Maybe they think that is illegal as well.:boat:

Yes, we also like the MM Grip i.e. featureless builds. We recommend all avenues to our customers. Once again, if a customer wants the BB we WILL install it.

The use of P50's is just a preference. That is all. I really can't believe that this thread continues. I have stated that our endorsement of the P50 is an opinion only and that we disagree with whomever states the BB is illegal. If there are certain staff that have said as such in the past then they are wrong.

I will continue to install P50's on my guns because I like them. That is all.

[Beej]

I just purchased a spikes lower and CTR stock from JandJ's yesterday. I asked if he had BB's in stock and he simply said no, all we have are the P50's right now. It was Anthony I was dealing with. There was no pressure or any talk of why I should use a P50 over a BB. Although this thread has only further confused me as a first time AR builder and is making me think twice about even doing this build, I can say that JandJ were plenty helpful and courteous as a dealer.

[IGOTDIRT4U]

I have bought 3 lowers from J&J, two from Anthony. Never while in their shop have I ever heard anyone mention that the BB was illegal, push the P50, or tell anyone within earshot any FUD. So, unless the acoustics at the show up north were bad, someone needs to get their ears checked. J&J Armory is a straight dealer. Let's not put ANOTHER gun shop out of business over wild rumors and misheard statements.


(Besides, they're like 3 miles from my house, can't get better than that!) :rolleyes:

[GuyW]

Phew!
IMHO, they are a private business and as such, should be allowed to conduct business at they see fit.

NO - not when they are selling a legally-problematic product (Prince 50) to a newby customer who (by J&Js own words) didn't even know that OLLs were legal a few minutes previously. Concern for the ignorant gun buyers (and their friends etc) would require sale SOLELY of a bullet button...because its idiot-proof...

[aplinker]

NO - not when they are selling a legally-problematic product (Prince 50) to a newby customer who (by J&Js own words) didn't even know that OLLs were legal a few minutes previously. Concern for the ignorant gun buyers (and their friends etc) would require sale SOLELY of a bullet button...because its idiot-proof...

I disagree, 100000%

There is no such thing as an "idiot proof" firearm.

The ignorant should be educated. The idiots should be sold airsoft.

[Suvorov]

I heard a story of some female officer biting off her nails and using it as a tool to pop out the mag with a bullet button and it was illegal because of such?

So what you are saying is that if Iggy is shooting a BB equipped AR with his pants down, he has just manufactured an assault weapon :confused: