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View Full Version : Home alarm permit questionair - guns in home?


tygerpaw
07-25-2008, 8:48 PM
Our city requires homeowner to get a permit for a $ 25.00 fee to operate a monitored home alarm system. They require you to fill out a questionaire and there's a section that asks what kind of hazards you may have they need to be aware of (dogs, chemicals, weapons, firearms) and they ask to describe each. Is this legal? Would a citizen be required to answer that question and be held accountable at a later date if they found these items or if you reported them stolen? I think I'm just going to leave it blank....

Ten Rounder
07-25-2008, 8:58 PM
I would put down on the sheet, black widow spiders and rattle snakes. Nothing like giving thieves a laundry list on where to GO SHOPPING.

dfletcher
07-25-2008, 10:35 PM
Our city requires homeowner to get a permit for a $ 25.00 fee to operate a monitored home alarm system. They require you to fill out a questionaire and there's a section that asks what kind of hazards you may have they need to be aware of (dogs, chemicals, weapons, firearms) and they ask to describe each. Is this legal? Would a citizen be required to answer that question and be held accountable at a later date if they found these items or if you reported them stolen? I think I'm just going to leave it blank....

They specify firearms? Personally I don't consider firearms in my home to be dangerous or a hazard, but if they specifically ask about firearms you don't have much leeway.

Is the alarm company providing some sort of guarantee your property will not be stolen? If you do not fill out the city's paperwork accurately and completely will that cause a problem regarding a claim with the company?

If there's an alarm at your home does someone respond? What if you answer no, someone (from the company or PD) responds to your home and is shot dead by the bad guy with your gun - a gun you didn't tell anyone about even though specifically asked?

ViPER395
07-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Dont tell them anything. It's none of their business.

If something happens later, you brought them into the home after you submitted that document.

lehn20
07-25-2008, 10:43 PM
I dont remember that when I signed with ADT. Is it the alarm company or the city that wants to know?. And I recommend everyone to buy specific firearms insurance if they get stolen and liability insurance for gun owners. It is not that expensive go to NRA website.

dwtt
07-25-2008, 11:31 PM
Fremont requires a permit for a home or business alarm. Anyone still remember how Fremont PD performed when Irvington Arms was burglarized and the alarm went off? It gives an indication of how useful an alarm is here in Fremont. If your city wants to know of hazards in your home, just tell them of whatever hazards are present, but I don't think a firearm in the hands of the homeowner is a hazard. Doesn't this mean your local police will actually respond to alarms, not like Fremont's police?

USMC_2651_E5
07-25-2008, 11:33 PM
This sounds like it is a question on the city paperwork that you would complete to obtain an alarm permit. This would be information available to the PD.

They ask for officer safety reasons when responding to an alarm at your residence. Just incase it is a valid alarm and officers encounter burglars that may obtain access to weapons in your house.

Personally I think that if you want officers to come check your home when you are away, you should provide the courtesy of them knowing you have firearms or any other hazard in your home.

I don't think you need to tell them specifically what you have, but you could say something like "a safe containing handguns and rifles," or "unconfined dogs on premesis".

If you don't want to say though, I don't think you would get in any trouble.

USMC_2651_E5
07-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Fremont requires a permit for a home or business alarm. Anyone still remember how Fremont PD performed when Irvington Arms was burglarized and the alarm went off? It gives an indication of how useful an alarm is here in Fremont. If your city wants to know of hazards in your home, just tell them of whatever hazards are present, but I don't think a firearm in the hands of the homeowner is a hazard. Doesn't this mean your local police will actually respond to alarms, not like Fremont's police?

Not sure I know what happened with Fremont PD, but I can tell you that more often than not, there is a delay between the alarm activation, the PD actually receiving the call and arriving on scene. The delay can be upto 15 minutes or more. Besides police drive time, the delay is mostly due to alarm company procedures when they receive an activation. Depending on your contract, they may try to call inside the residence, then call a list of people that may have access, and then call police.

Still alarms are good. For people that want to save thier belongings, a loud audible alarm usually works great to scare the perps away. For people that want the bad guys caught, a silent alarm is good.

ViPER395
07-26-2008, 12:12 AM
I know this firsthand. I point it out whenever those stupid Brinks commercials are on the set and within seconds of the bad guy kicking in the front door, the phone rings with the perfect-English-speaking guy on the other end sending police.

Yea f'n right.

Not sure I know what happened with Fremont PD, but I can tell you that more often than not, there is a delay between the alarm activation, the PD actually receiving the call and arriving on scene. The delay can be upto 15 minutes or more. Besides police drive time, the delay is mostly due to alarm company procedures when they receive an activation. Depending on your contract, they may try to call inside the residence, then call a list of people that may have access, and then call police.

randy
07-26-2008, 2:18 AM
The cops do not need to know you have firearms in the house. They are responding to a what ever the call is for somebody breaking into the house. If I were a cop I would EXPECT the bg to be armed. The fact you have firearms doesn't make a bit of difference. Don't tell people what you have, be it guns or jewels or anything.

Rob454
07-26-2008, 6:41 AM
It is simply so the cops know what they can encounter when they show up. Could be a crazy dog or a BG that armed himself. you dnt have to give the list of guns you own. Man you guys are parranoid. Now also some cities want to make it a law that if you want police response you need to have a alarm permit and also for the central station to be able to verify the break in.
I know this cause Im in the industry. I do fire alarms but I used to do security alarms. Either way its not a big deal IMO

ViPER395
07-26-2008, 6:45 AM
So, if you don't have an alarm the police won't respond?

Now also some cities want to make it a law that if you want police response you need to have a alarm permit and also for the central station to be able to verify the break in.

Rob454
07-26-2008, 6:45 AM
Not sure I know what happened with Fremont PD, but I can tell you that more often than not, there is a delay between the alarm activation, the PD actually receiving the call and arriving on scene. The delay can be upto 15 minutes or more. Besides police drive time, the delay is mostly due to alarm company procedures when they receive an activation. Depending on your contract, they may try to call inside the residence, then call a list of people that may have access, and then call police.

Still alarms are good. For people that want to save thier belongings, a loud audible alarm usually works great to scare the perps away. For people that want the bad guys caught, a silent alarm is good.


In case you didnt know you can set up the response time as you wish it. if you tell the central station you want the cops rolling as they call the house thats what they will do. I have mine set up that the alarm must be set off with two different zones in the main house ( a perimeter and a motion det or glass break det) in order to roll PD but on the garage to roll before they even bother calling the house. Also they will roll without calling on a panic button activation. you can set it up as you wish and the central station will follow directions
Rob

Rob454
07-26-2008, 6:54 AM
So, if you don't have an alarm the police won't respond?

You mean a permit? If you dont have a alarm then the police wont respond.

Well there is talk in the industry about that. Its been going around for a while but I forgot what city is trying it out ( I think LA wanted to) but from what I understand theire trying to pass a ordinance ( statewide) that basically makes you S.O.L if you dont have a alarm permit on file with city hall/PD. My PD still responds and I have a permit on file. its really not a big deal. I think my permit is 25$ a year. The reason for this hoopla is because cops respond to too many false alarms. you get a few a year I think its 3-4 depending on the city. IMO if your alarm is falsing call a service pro out. I cant tell you the times my neighbors ask me to fix their alarms but whoever they have wants 160$ to fix it. When I tell them Ill do it for 100 they still balk at the price. They expect me to do it for free.
Either way a alarm system isnt a foolproof way youre not gonna get burglarized but it drops your chances astronomically. Personally i feel they are well worth addition to a home.
Rob

ViPER395
07-26-2008, 7:00 AM
I'm so confused.

I'm getting a new house soon and it has an alarm and I sure as hell don't plan on getting any permit or submitting anything but my name and home address if I must.

So if an alarm is going off and your neighbors call it in, and theres no permit on file with the city/county, your house is not getting any police response?

Is that how i'm understanding this? :mad:

deleted by PC police
07-26-2008, 7:07 AM
You have a right to be secure in your home, screw the permit. The City has no right to ask you to get it and damned sure doesn't have a right to ask you about firearms. It's back door registration.

eta34
07-26-2008, 7:12 AM
So, if you don't have an alarm the police won't respond?

In my experience, cities have required permits for several reasons. First, we get tons and tons of false alarms. After a certain number, the city starts charging the resident for our response. Second, it provides us with a responsible party to contact if there is an actual crime, or if we cannot secure the residence.

If you don't have a permit, the police will respond. However, if there is a muni code stating that you must have a permit, there could be a fine involved.

ViPER395
07-26-2008, 7:16 AM
Thanks eta. That clears it up for me, crystalline.

I take back all those rumors I spread about you. ;)

In my experience, cities have required permits for several reasons. First, we get tons and tons of false alarms. After a certain number, the city starts charging the resident for our response. Second, it provides us with a responsible party to contact if there is an actual crime, or if we cannot secure the residence.

If you don't have a permit, the police will respond. However, if there is a muni code stating that you must have a permit, there could be a fine involved.

Rob454
07-26-2008, 2:44 PM
I'm so confused.

I'm getting a new house soon and it has an alarm and I sure as hell don't plan on getting any permit or submitting anything but my name and home address if I must.

So if an alarm is going off and your neighbors call it in, and theres no permit on file with the city/county, your house is not getting any police response?

Is that how i'm understanding this? :mad:

Yeah but its not in every city. Depends on the city and what their rules are. I may be wrong but I think some areas of LA county do this right now

Rob454
07-26-2008, 2:48 PM
You have a right to be secure in your home, screw the permit. The City has no right to ask you to get it and damned sure doesn't have a right to ask you about firearms. It's back door registration.

Yes you have the right to secure your home but the city has the right to say we dont respond or we fine you unless you have this little piece of paper. If you have a business you gotta have a business license. Its not backdoor registration no matter what you think. put down whatever you want on the paper to get a permit.

odysseus
07-26-2008, 2:54 PM
Different places have different rules. In my neck of the woods, you have to file with the PD for your home alarm. My alarm company is a good LOCAL company that does a lot of business, and many of the city officials in the area. The permit basically is like another tax, you file telling them you have so-and-so's service for your residence, give them a little money with the permit and they will then respond with units for alarms.

My permit application did not have any asking of dangerous items or anything about firearms. However if you go over 3 false alarms in any given year, you are fined per incident.

Also for any of the alarm companies I have worked with, you can give them various instructions. The one I give them is to call PD, then call me. If it's false they will call PD back and tell them to disregard - this keeps me free from fines, yet gets reaction time down. If the panic button is hit, they come with the knowledge it was a panic button, and though the company calls, the PD are coming no matter what.

.

triaged
07-26-2008, 3:29 PM
Plead the 5th ;)

Dont Tread on Me
07-26-2008, 4:22 PM
I'd leave the question blank. As has been said above, I don't think cops should be responding to an alarm with the mindset that the perpetuators are unarmed as you ticked a box on your alarm permit. If they won't issue a permit without the box being completed, then we have an illegal gun registration scheme for the NRA to knock down.

tygerpaw
07-26-2008, 5:05 PM
If you don't have a permit, the police will respond. However, if there is a muni code stating that you must have a permit, there could be a fine involved.


Bingo. They have a muni code and will fine us $ 85.00 per response.

Guntech
07-26-2008, 5:09 PM
Dont tell them anything. It's none of their business.

If something happens later, you brought them into the home after you submitted that document.

Good advice. I like the ol' "Oh, those guns, I forgot about those guns!"

ViPER395
07-26-2008, 5:11 PM
"Those aren't dangerous weapons, they're useful tools..." :cool2:

Good advice. I like the ol' "Oh, those guns, I forgot about those guns!"

dfletcher
07-26-2008, 7:36 PM
I deal with the alarm companies and SFPD fairly frequently. My experience is that these private alarm companies (ADT, Bay Area Alarm, etc) are not staffed by "retired LE" types - usually fairly low paid folks and often English as a 2nd language. SFPD almost never responds in time to catch any bad guys, sometimes they don't respond at all. False alarms for a variety of reasons are the norm, breed complacency and a less than diligent response. Most cities impose fines for repeated false alarms, I believe SF goes up to $250.00 after the 2nd or 3rd.

triaged
07-26-2008, 7:44 PM
An LEO I talked to said that an audible alarm called in by your neighbors often comes in before the monitoring company's call. He just bought a house and just has an audible.

Satex
07-26-2008, 8:52 PM
This sounds like it is a question on the city paperwork that you would complete to obtain an alarm permit. This would be information available to the PD.

They ask for officer safety reasons when responding to an alarm at your residence. Just incase it is a valid alarm and officers encounter burglars that may obtain access to weapons in your house.

Personally I think that if you want officers to come check your home when you are away, you should provide the courtesy of them knowing you have firearms or any other hazard in your home.

I don't think you need to tell them specifically what you have, but you could say something like "a safe containing handguns and rifles," or "unconfined dogs on premesis".

If you don't want to say though, I don't think you would get in any trouble.

If that's the case, you should also list things such as: kitchen knifes, tools, cleaning supplies, etc... Those are hazards that could be used against officers as well.

tyrist
07-26-2008, 9:05 PM
In response to the firearm questions....we have to have specific knowledge or a reasonable belief the suspect is armed inorder to deploy pistols. If you have firearms in your house such as handguns we can deploy the shotgun. If you have shotguns/rifles we can deploy an AR-15. We can only deploy these weapons if we have the reasonable belief it calls for it. Listing that you have a shotgun elevates what weapons the Officers carry with them in many jurisdictions.

Second many people here don't know how annoying it is when you arrive to a Burglary which is legit and there is absolutely no contact information on file. We get the pleasure of searching for any type of phone number to figure out whose home/business/property it is since we cannot leave the location unsecured. This can take an hour or more if we ever find anything. If we cannot find anything we call out a contractor who is going to charge you lots and lots of money inorder to secure your property with some wood. I have also been stuck waiting for hours on the contractor to show up.

In my experiance 99% of alarms are false. They can be triggered by rats and other creatures. Also on rainy days alarms go off like crazy. I have responded to different alarms at the same location up to 5 times a night. Second when people get alarms installed in their homes the box is in the closet and an experianced burglar will de-activate it before it goes off in some cases. They are just not an effective tool for home protection in my experiance. I have heard of several cities saying they will not respond to any alarms calls at all because they are almost all false.

Kruzr
07-26-2008, 9:28 PM
Don't forget to add the following to the list you give them:

This home contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, or birth defects or other reproductive harm

motorhead
07-26-2008, 9:35 PM
tell them to stay clear of the minefield out back and that the anthrax is on the middle shelf of the refrigerator.

odysseus
07-26-2008, 10:52 PM
In my experiance 99% of alarms are false. They can be triggered by rats and other creatures. Also on rainy days alarms go off like crazy. I have responded to different alarms at the same location up to 5 times a night. Second when people get alarms installed in their homes the box is in the closet and an experianced burglar will de-activate it before it goes off in some cases. They are just not an effective tool for home protection in my experiance. I have heard of several cities saying they will not respond to any alarms calls at all because they are almost all false.

Bad installations are the cause of that. There are a lot of cheapy no skill alarm sellers and installers out there. People simply don't do enough research and know enough about who\what they are getting, and how to use it.

For me, I say good luck A) having the perp find my box in time, and B) get into the box, and C) if he got creative he still better have a jammer for cellnet.

However there are many valid reasons for PD to show up. Honestly, if it is chronic false alarms, fining the people per incident will fix that up quick.

.

firescout
07-26-2008, 11:10 PM
One of the main reasons I relented (to the wife's requests) and got a monitored alarm system was for the fire protection. The secondary benefit is that it will (most likely) alert me to an intruder when we are at home and sleeping so I'll be (hopefully) armed and ready before he gets down the hallway. The panic button feature is good for my wife when I'm not around, as she has no interest in using a gun for protection.

As for *false* alarms, we've never had one in the four years we've had the system. We've had a couple of accidental activations when we were here, but after quickly silencing the alarm, a prompt call from the alarm company finished off the incident.

I understand a number of communities do not allow un-monitored security alarms.

jamesob
07-26-2008, 11:13 PM
i can't believe you have to get a permit to have an alarm. next you will have to pay 1.00 everytime someone rings your doorbell. i didn't pay any fees to the city for mine.

RRALAR15
07-27-2008, 12:28 AM
I'm so confused.

I'm getting a new house soon and it has an alarm and I sure as hell don't plan on getting any permit or submitting anything but my name and home address if I must.

So if an alarm is going off and your neighbors call it in, and theres no permit on file with the city/county, your house is not getting any police response?

Is that how i'm understanding this? :mad:

I installed an alarm on a house in Sac and before I could fill out the permit paperwork (few days) I had someone break in through the back window... Got a fine for unlicensed alarm but they did respond... Few months later someone tries to kick in the door (visible footprint) PD responds, as do I, I show them where someone tried to break into my house but no entry, alarm worked... but again I got a fine for an false alarm... took 3 months to get fixed... BTW dispatch loves you to call in and say "I just got a call from my alarm company and someone is breaking into my house... advise responding officers I have several dozen guns unsecured in the residence" I arrived onscene 5 min after the alarm company called me and pd had beat me there... this in a city with a 45 min 211 response time...

DesertGunner
07-27-2008, 3:18 AM
In response to the firearm questions....we have to have specific knowledge or a reasonable belief the suspect is armed inorder to deploy pistols. If you have firearms in your house such as handguns we can deploy the shotgun. If you have shotguns/rifles we can deploy an AR-15. We can only deploy these weapons if we have the reasonable belief it calls for it. Listing that you have a shotgun elevates what weapons the Officers carry with them in many jurisdictions.


Just curious, are you with a city PD or an SO? That policy has got to be the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. I'm not saying you're lying, just that the policy is total BS.

odysseus
07-27-2008, 9:59 AM
BTW dispatch loves you to call in and say "I just got a call from my alarm company and someone is breaking into my house... advise responding officers I have several dozen guns unsecured in the residence" I arrived onscene 5 min after the alarm company called me and pd had beat me there... this in a city with a 45 min 211 response time...

...sounds like you are making friends.;)

Seriously though - make a call saying you have unsecured arms in Sacramento and then don't have that. Then next time (since it seems this is regular at that place) what are you going to say?

.

tyrist
07-27-2008, 11:09 AM
Just curious, are you with a city PD or an SO? That policy has got to be the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. I'm not saying you're lying, just that the policy is total BS.

City PD. We have to have the reasonable belief the suspect has a shoulder fired weapon inorder to deploy the rifle/slugs. If they are armed with a pistol we can deploy the shotgun. All other weapons are pretty much pistols only. Not that this policy is always followed to the letter. It has to do with the fear of over penetration and hitting innocents behind walls.