PDA

View Full Version : 7/24/2008 - Lower Court uses Heller Decision to uphold BATFE ban on imported weapons


PatriotnMore
07-24-2008, 3:44 PM
WTF?

Steven Mullenix, a federal firearms licensee (FFL), was denied permission to import German WWII replica rifles by the notoriously anti-gun Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The BATFE used arguments from the 1968 Gun Control Act to argue that the replica BD-44 held no "sporting purpose" and therefore Mr. Mullenix could not legally import them.

http://www.nationalgunrights.org/truthaboutheller.shtml

Hopi
07-24-2008, 3:47 PM
WTF?

Steven Mullenix, a federal firearms licensee (FFL), was denied permission to import German WWII replica rifles by the notoriously anti-gun Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The BATFE used arguments from the 1968 Gun Control Act to argue that the replica BD-44 held no "sporting purpose" and therefore Mr. Mullenix could not legally import them.

http://www.nationalgunrights.org/truthaboutheller.shtml

No offense, but that source is either; embarrassingly ignorant of the post-Heller strategy, or they are deliberately playing Henny Penny....

For example.....
I hate to say I told you so, but gun owners worst nightmares are coming true. Already, anti-gunners are using the Heller Decision to restrict the rights of gun owners.

The irony is that the first victim of the Heller Decision is Dick Heller himself.

In addition to the District of Columbia's excessive and restrictive new rules for gun ownership, they have continued to ban certain types of handguns. Dick Heller, the plaintiff from the SupremeCourt case that bears his name, had his application for a handgun permit declined.

and

7/2/2008 - What the Heller Decision really means
Dear Friend of Gun Rights,

I wish I could rejoice in the recent Supreme Court ruling. I can't.

The fact is, in many ways, it is bad news for gun owners and gun rights.

Edited to add: The site/source is also anti-NRA...go figure.

AaronHorrocks
07-24-2008, 3:49 PM
From the same site:

In addition to the District of Columbia's excessive and restrictive new rules for gun ownership, they have continued to ban certain types of handguns. Dick Heller, the plaintiff from the SupremeCourt case that bears his name, had his application for a handgun permit declined.

chris
07-24-2008, 4:00 PM
are these guys in panic mode or what? i don't think Heller is the mess they are thinking. i truly hope for a better firearms climate after Heller.

tombinghamthegreat
07-24-2008, 4:06 PM
DC case victory is just the starting point, not the finish line, it appears the anti gunners closed their eyes to the meaning of the 2nd amendment. Which is fine because that what appeals are for.

mymonkeyman
07-24-2008, 4:11 PM
Well it's true that pretty much every district court opinion since Heller has upheld whatever law was challenged against a 2nd amendment decision. That's not suprising for a few reasons: Heller doesn't even give the legal standard, so how can lower courts apply it?, Heller specifically names many kinds of laws & says they are valid, lower courts frequently resist constitutional change, many of the cases are argued poorly by bad lawyers. It's going to take a lot of time, at least until things get up to the Courts of Appeal, before real reasoned analysis will come out on the 2nd amendment. In this case it is clear the lawyers were very bad, making very absolutist 2nd amendment arguments clearly invalidated by Heller. They kind of got the idea to analogize to the 1st by mentioning "time, place, manner" regulations, but they then tied that into the absolutist position. The better analogy to the 1st is in discretionary permits for public speaking, where the 1st Amendment allows regulation of parades / public protests by permits, but requires very explicit rules for determining approval, severely limits discretion of the permitting officer and requires direct court review of the decision.

SOneThreeCoupe
07-25-2008, 9:07 AM
Those of you who believe Heller was a victory were right: a Pyrrhic victory.

We have nine activist judges, none of whom regard the Constitution as an absolute and rather as a malleable starting point.

If you think Heller gives us ground to stand on, you're wrong. It was an incorrect opinion given by the judges, and a disgusting precedent against our future rights.

AEC1
07-25-2008, 9:53 AM
I beg to differ, it is a starting point, it was a winn for DC we now have to chip away for the rest of the nation.

CCWFacts
07-25-2008, 10:29 AM
In addition to the District of Columbia's excessive and restrictive new rules for gun ownership, they have continued to ban certain types of handguns. Dick Heller, the plaintiff from the SupremeCourt case that bears his name, had his application for a handgun permit declined.

That's an outright lie. His permit was not declined. He simply didn't complete the application process because he wasn't willing to risk arrest by bringing in an unregistered revolver for the registration process. Their registration process was drafted in haste, is only temporary, and will be stomped on in court if they don't fix it.

sigsauer887
07-25-2008, 10:37 AM
Those of you who believe Heller was a victory were right: a Pyrrhic victory.

We have nine activist judges, none of whom regard the Constitution as an absolute and rather as a malleable starting point.

If you think Heller gives us ground to stand on, you're wrong. It was an incorrect opinion given by the judges, and a disgusting precedent against our future rights.

Last time I checked the court ruled it was an "Individual" right, which is a start. Were not going to get an immediate change, its going to take some time, but we'll do it. Of course folks are going to "Try" to use the heller decision against us, because they know it infuriates us. Plus there hasn't been another court ruling *YET*. We have a WAAAAY better leg to stand on now then the pegged one we had before.

sunborder
07-25-2008, 12:30 PM
That's an outright lie. His permit was not declined. He simply didn't complete the application process because he wasn't willing to risk arrest by bringing in an unregistered revolver for the registration process. Their registration process was drafted in haste, is only temporary, and will be stomped on in court if they don't fix it.

For someone with a handle like "CCWFACTS", you are remarkably uninformed. Dick Heller showed up at the DC registration location with a 1911 style autoloader. He was denied. He deliberately did not bring a revolver (which would have been subject to the current ***AMNESTY PERIOD***) so that he could further push back against the DC restrictions on "machineguns", which by their definition includes a seven shot .45 automatic. He would not have been in violation of the law by bringing in a revolver, and he knows it, as did his LAWYERS (Gura, et al).

Gator Monroe
07-25-2008, 12:38 PM
BD 44 ? (Is that a Rimfire Version or Centerfire version of the Stg44 or MP44 ?)

CCWFacts
07-25-2008, 12:45 PM
For someone with a handle like "CCWFACTS", you are remarkably uninformed. Dick Heller showed up at the DC registration location with a 1911 style autoloader. He was denied. He deliberately did not bring a revolver (which would have been subject to the current ***AMNESTY PERIOD***) so that he could further push back against the DC restrictions on "machineguns", which by their definition includes a seven shot .45 automatic. He would not have been in violation of the law by bringing in a revolver, and he knows it, as did his LAWYERS (Gura, et al).

Ok, I should have been more clear. Here's the more complete story: Heller doesn't register on Thursday, does register on Friday (http://www.news8.net/news/stories/0708/537057.html)

WASHINGTON - The man who successfully challenged D.C.'s handgun ban has returned to police headquarters to register a weapon.

Dick Heller arrived this morning carrying a 22-caliber pistol in a bright red bag. He was greeted by a throng of media and proclaimed: "It's a great day."

Heller initially tried to register one of his guns yesterday but didn't bring it with him out of concern he wouldn't be legally allowed to transport it from Maryland. Police assured him that it was OK.

He showed up on Thursday, without a gun, and was told he needed to have the gun there to register. He brought the revolver in on Friday and got the registration going. I guess now he's trying to get a 1911 registered and they will deny that under their current rules.

ke6guj
07-25-2008, 12:47 PM
For someone with a handle like "CCWFACTS", you are remarkably uninformed. Dick Heller showed up at the DC registration location with a 1911 style autoloader. He was denied. He deliberately did not bring a revolver (which would have been subject to the current ***AMNESTY PERIOD***) so that he could further push back against the DC restrictions on "machineguns", which by their definition includes a seven shot .45 automatic. He would not have been in violation of the law by bringing in a revolver, and he knows it, as did his LAWYERS (Gura, et al).

Heller showed up on day one with the intent to register his 1911, but he did not bring it with him because there was the possibility that DC would have confiscated it as a "machine gun".

SOneThreeCoupe
07-25-2008, 3:16 PM
Last time I checked the court ruled it was an "Individual" right, which is a start. Were not going to get an immediate change, its going to take some time, but we'll do it. Of course folks are going to "Try" to use the heller decision against us, because they know it infuriates us. Plus there hasn't been another court ruling *YET*. We have a WAAAAY better leg to stand on now then the pegged one we had before.

The court ruled it an individual right which can be severely limited before infringement begins. Last time I checked, there was no "only for hunting or sporting use" clause in the Second, nor anything about the popularity of the arms being necessary to decide rights.

We're not going to get much of a change unless we convince the populace that all citizens of the United States are getting a raw deal with these empty robes in SCOTUS.

Should SCOTUS exist? Absolutely, but they've once again overstepped their boundaries and believe themselves to be interpreters of the Constitution, not protectors.

fairfaxjim
07-25-2008, 3:38 PM
Heller showed up on day one with the intent to register his 1911, but he did not bring it with him because there was the possibility that DC would have confiscated it as a "machine gun".

Hardly a "clear cut" victory, more like a chip in the mortar of the castle. As long as "made up" definitions are allowed to stand, they can call a broom stick a gun, and a gun a thermonuclear device. Until the SCOTUS rules that the 2nd ammendment is an absolute, unrestricted right, this name game will continue to make criminals out of law abiding gun owners.

On the other hand, blaming this type of behavior on the Heller decision is also incorrect and uninformed. Twisting the truth to make gun ownership difficult predated Heller, and will continue, pretty much unabated, except within the very narrow confines of the Heller decision. After all, CA law provides for AW permits, they just never have issued any. Home defense permits will be treated with the same restrictive bs. The amount of time and $$ required to challenge every off the wall permit restriction will far exceed the available.

paladin4415
07-25-2008, 3:57 PM
Until the SCOTUS rules that the 2nd ammendment is an absolute, unrestricted right.


That my friend will NEVER happen. Not with the 2nd ammendment or any other "right".

CCWFacts
07-25-2008, 4:03 PM
That my friend will NEVER happen. Not with the 2nd ammendment or any other "right".

That's right. We don't have absolute, unrestricted rights in this society, or in any society that has a government.

Zebra
07-25-2008, 4:14 PM
BD 44 ? (Is that a Rimfire Version or Centerfire version of the Stg44 or MP44 ?)

That would be the Centerfire version, 7.92x33 kurz:
http://ioinc.us/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IO&Product_Code=DITT0002&Category_Code=Featured+Items
I.O. states that a BATFE approval letter is included.

Frank

bohoki
07-25-2008, 5:17 PM
That would be the Centerfire version, 7.92x33 kurz:
http://ioinc.us/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IO&Product_Code=DITT0002&Category_Code=Featured+Items
I.O. states that a BATFE approval letter is included.

Frank

well the ammo is avalible i guess

http://www.grafs.com/ammo/242