PDA

View Full Version : Question about open carry


Matt@EntrepriseArms
07-24-2008, 11:31 AM
Hey guys,

Question about open carry. I have read some of the threads on here, and at opencarry.org as well. Its a little confusing, and I determined that it is not ok to carry a loaded firearm in a National Park or State Park.

However, my question is specific to California and the National Forrest. Is it "legal" to have a loaded firearm open carried while in a campsite in a National Forrest? The San Bernadino National Forrest (Big Bear) for example?

Or can I just have it unloaded and stored in the campsite?

Thanks

Guntech
07-24-2008, 11:37 AM
First off it is unloaded open carry here in California. Meaning magazine separate from the pistol i.e. mag pouch on the holster or separate mag pouch. As for carrying loaded in National forest see 12031
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her
person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place
or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Matt@EntrepriseArms
07-24-2008, 11:48 AM
Yes, but does that apply to a campsite?

Guntech
07-24-2008, 11:49 AM
National Forest and BLM: On these federal lands firearms are generally permitted, if carried and used in a safe manner, and if the users
comply with state and county laws. Most of these lands qualify as “unincorporated territory”, but there are some restrictions on shooting (near
structures, developed areas, roads, bodies of water) so 12031(f) applies. Check with your local ranger station for any other local restrictions.

I hope I have helped and answered your question :)

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 11:53 AM
Generally yes. You can carry unloaded just about anywhere in most NF. Loaded anywhere where shooting is not prohibited (see Guntech's post above). And loaded in your own campsite is OK also.

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/trails/welcome.shtml

Matt@EntrepriseArms
07-24-2008, 11:55 AM
I plan to carry it ONLY in my campsite, and I do not plan to fire it (ie. target practice, getting drunk and shooting at the moon, etc).

I just wanted to know if I can 1. have it loaded, and 2. open carried while in my campsite.

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 11:56 AM
I just wanted to know if I can 1. have it loaded, and 2. open carried while in my campsite.

Yes.

Guntech
07-24-2008, 11:58 AM
1. Yes generally it is legal to carry LOADED in a National Forest as long as you follow PC 12031. Meaning you can be charged with carrying a loaded firearm if you carry in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

2. Yes you can open carry at your campsite, but just to be safe check with the local ranger station

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Loaded open carry in many parts of Nat. Forest is not prohibited if that area is not an incorporated territory or a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Unloaded open carry (loaded mag in exposed belt mag pouch) is safest legally when one has to cross from non-prohibited areas to prohibited areas. In order to carry loaded you would need to determine if that part of the Nat. Forest was not a prohibited area. Prohibited loaded area = territory where discharge of a firearm is prohibited by law.

Be aware of the following (but also read the full citation):


12031PC (http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/12020-12040.html)

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 12:07 PM
2. Yes you can open carry at your campsite, but just to be safe check with the local ranger station

Loaded being the issue look as subsection (l) where it says "have a loaded firearm" not "carry" at a campsite. Other subsections say "carry". To understand the difference read Overturf (http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html) which until it is overturned stands :(.

If the campsite is a no-discharge (loaded prohibited) area I would not rely on (l) and choose to OC unloaded (loaded mags exposed (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1283824&postcount=6) and separate).

moulton
07-24-2008, 12:13 PM
I thought a campsite is an extention of the home :confused:

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 12:25 PM
I thought a campsite is an extention of the home :confused:

I'd say that inside your tent is not a public place and 12031 doesn't apply. Also if your campsite is not in a prohibited area 12031 doesn't apply. I would not rely on (l) in court, but it may be enough to fool a ranger or deputy to whom you've showed the PC citation.

Darklyte27
07-24-2008, 12:29 PM
hopefully it is clear the campsite is in a national forest and not a park like yosemite or NP.

Matt@EntrepriseArms
07-24-2008, 12:36 PM
I was thinking of Big Bear, which is in the San Bernadino National Forrest.

The campsite is up in the hills, not on one of those little campsites down by the Lake where you are on your little patch of dirt 15 feet away from the guys camping on their patch of dirt next to you.

I guess I need to find out if the area I will be in is in an incorporated or un-incorporated area, and if firing is prohibited. I know there is or was a designated shooting area up there, but I think you are only allowed to fire guns in that designated area.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 12:42 PM
Or can I just have it unloaded and stored in the campsite?

Thanks

for any concealment we need to consult 12025 (http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/12020-12040.html)

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person...

(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
within the meaning of this section...

So to have it concealed you need an exemption:

If a campsite is a residence (I'm not sure) then:

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen...who
resides or is temporarily within this state...
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen...to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Section 12031.

If not rely on this one:

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen...from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.
or (which doesn't address storage at the campground)

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.

added:

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.



or can the following apply to you? If so NO locked case is needed for possession or transport (technically but may not be for you - locked case is safest when dealing with LE untrained in exemptions):

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(b) The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person as merchandise by a person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing, importing, wholesaling, repairing, or dealing in
firearms and who is licensed to engage in that business or the
authorized representative or authorized agent of that person while
engaged in the lawful course of the business.

(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

Note any loaded (or even unloaded mags) should be exposed or if concealed locked up (People v Hale:().

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 12:44 PM
About your campsite:

The NF only restricts shooting. That includes no shooting in designated campsites. However, all state laws also apply in the NF. So, 12031 applies, which means no loading in areas where shooting is prohibited. However, 12031 has an exemption for your temporary residence or campsite. So you CAN load in your campsite, but not in any other area of a designated campsite, i.e. other people's campsites or public toilets, etc.

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 12:46 PM
It's really quite simple.

If you carry openly and loaded in your campsite, what law can you be charged with violating? None. Because in your own campsite you are not violating 12031. Period.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 12:56 PM
I was thinking of Big Bear, which is in the San Bernadino National Forrest.

The campsite is up in the hills, not on one of those little campsites down by the Lake where you are on your little patch of dirt 15 feet away from the guys camping on their patch of dirt next to you.

I guess I need to find out if the area I will be in is in an incorporated or un-incorporated area, and if firing is prohibited. I know there is or was a designated shooting area up there, but I think you are only allowed to fire guns in that designated area.

Can't go wrong with unloaded open carry unless you find a leo who thinks a loaded mag = loaded gun

Print out the OC publications from here to help (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/) with any untrained LEOs and give TM's (http://trutanichmichel.com/) info to non-carrying members of your expedition just in case.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 1:00 PM
It's really quite simple.

If you carry openly and loaded in your campsite, what law can you be charged with violating? None. Because in your own campsite you are not violating 12031. Period.

have you considered the Overturf case law of "have" vs "carry" in applying 12031 (if 12031 even applies where he will be camping)?

12031
(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 1:09 PM
I was thinking of Big Bear, which is in the San Bernadino National Forrest.



County of San Bernardino Code
Title 2
Division2
Firearms and Dangerous Weapons (http://www.sbcounty.gov/countycodes/)

22.011 Discharge of Firearms.
It shall be unlawful for any person to fire, shoot or discharge any rifle or pistol, or to discharge a slug from a
shotgun which slug has a maximum diameter greater than one-half of the bore of said shotgun within the boundaries
described in subsections (a) to (h), inclusive, of this section; and for any person to fire, shoot or discharge any
shotgun within the boundaries described in subsection (i) of this section; and for any person to fire, shoot or
discharge any rifle or pistol or discharge a slug from a shotgun which slug has a maximum diameter greater than onehalf
the bore of said shotgun within the boundaries described in subsection (j) of this section.

(g) BIG BEAR AREA. All that territory included within the exterior boundaries described as follows: Beginning at
the junction of State Highways 18 and 38 at the dam on Big Bear Lake; thence northerly up a ridge to Grays Peak;
thence northeasterly to the southwest corner of Section 11, Township 2 North, Range I West; thence northerly to
Forest Road 2N68Y; thence westerly along said road to its intersection with the road around the west end of
Fawnskin Valley (Forest Road 2N13.2); thence northwesterly, northeasterly and southeasterly around the
westernmost boundary of the Hanna Flat Campground and one-quarter mile distant therefrom; thence easterly to
Little Bear Peak; thence easterly to Delomar Mountain; thence southeasterly and easterly along the ridge between
Big Bear Lake and Holcomb Valley to Van Dusen Canyon; thence northeasterly up a ridge to the top of Gold
Mountain; thence continuing northeasterly to the northeast corner of Section 36, Township 3 North, Range 1 East;
thence southeasterly along Nelson Ridge between Baldwin Lake and Arrastre Creek through said Section 1S and
through Section 22, Township 2 North, Range 2 East, to the highest point in the southeast quarter of said Section 22
(Elevation Marker 7387); thence easterly along a ridge to Arrastre Creek; thence southerly up said Arrastrc Creek to
Balky Horse Creek; thence southerly up Balky Horse Creek to an intersection with the south fence line of State
Highway 38; thence westerly along said fence line through Sections 34, 27, 28, 29, and 30, Township 2 North, Range
2 East, S.B.B.&M., to the top of the ridge lying between Green Canyon and the Greenspot Road; thence
southwesterly up the ridge to its intersection with the north line of Section 31, Township 2 North, Range 2 East;
thence westerly to San Canyon Road (Forest Road 2N05); thence southwesterly up a ridge to the ridge between Big
Bear Valley and the Santa Ana River; thence westerly along said ridge, through Clarks Summit; thence westerly
through the center of Section 34; thence northerly to the point of beginning.

I'm sure this post cleared it up :D :banghead:

Darklyte27
07-24-2008, 1:14 PM
probably the best thing to do is to contact whoever whatever manages that area of the land, talk to someone and get them to confirm what you can and cant do, park ranger or something..

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 1:17 PM
probably the best thing to do is to contact whoever whatever manages that area of the land, talk to someone and get them to confirm what you can and cant do, park ranger or something..

asking LE is tantamount to being denied in controversion of the law

CaliforniaCarry
07-24-2008, 1:48 PM
I was thinking of Big Bear, which is in the San Bernadino National Forrest.

The campsite is up in the hills, not on one of those little campsites down by the Lake where you are on your little patch of dirt 15 feet away from the guys camping on their patch of dirt next to you.

I guess I need to find out if the area I will be in is in an incorporated or un-incorporated area, and if firing is prohibited. I know there is or was a designated shooting area up there, but I think you are only allowed to fire guns in that designated area.

Keep in mind that San Bernardino County prohibits discharging weapons within a certain distance of any building, effectively making anywhere near buildings a prohibited area. I don't have time to look up the code right now, but you should check their website.

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 2:25 PM
I was thinking of Big Bear, which is in the San Bernadino National Forrest.

The campsite is up in the hills, not on one of those little campsites down by the Lake where you are on your little patch of dirt 15 feet away from the guys camping on their patch of dirt next to you.

I guess I need to find out if the area I will be in is in an incorporated or un-incorporated area, and if firing is prohibited. I know there is or was a designated shooting area up there, but I think you are only allowed to fire guns in that designated area.

Also keep in mind Hoffmang is asking individuals to hold off till after 8/31 on OC activities for statigic reasons. I'm not telling you not to, just passing along the request.

But for any brochures you need go to californiaopencarry.org (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/)

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 3:08 PM
have you considered the Overturf case law of "have" vs "carry" in applying 12031 (if 12031 even applies where he will be camping)?

No. I haven't. Overturf is ancient history, especially compared to Clark, which is 1996. Some day when I have more time I will read Overturf again with more detail, but personally, I don't think it will ever matter or even come up.


Also keep in mind Hoffmang is asking individuals to hold off till after 8/31 on OC activities for statigic reasons. I'm not telling you not to, just passing along the request.

No no no. Gene is asking not to OC in urban areas or new untried OC territory. National Forests are no problem. I've been Open Carrying in National Forests for 20 years. It's not even the same ballpark as urban areas.

But for any brochures you need go to californiaopencarry.org (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/)

Agreed. :D

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 3:25 PM
No. I haven't. Overturf is ancient history, especially compared to Clark, which is 1996. Some day when I have more time I will read Overturf again with more detail, but personally, I don't think it will ever matter or even come up.
:D

Clark (definition of loaded) and Overturf ("have vs carry") are different issues so Clark doesn't overturn Overturf. Overturf was wrongly decided but a reading of 12031's exemptions shows "have" and "carry" being used in separate subsections and can therefore be reasonably discerned by a trial court to have different meanings. Overturf, ancient history notwithstanding, is still controling.

Matt@EntrepriseArms
07-24-2008, 3:35 PM
Thanks for the call Liberty1!

I'm gonna take my (informed) chances with open carry cause I don't want the rabid raccoons and squirrels to get the drop on me while I'm trying to load!!!!!

MudCamper
07-24-2008, 4:38 PM
Clark (definition of loaded) and Overturf ("have vs carry") are different issues so Clark doesn't overturn Overturf. Overturf was wrongly decided but a reading of 12031's exemptions shows "have" and "carry" being used in separate subsections and can therefore be reasonably discerned by a trial court to have different meanings. Overturf, ancient history notwithstanding, is still controling.

Who dug up Overturf anyway. It's like with Hale, no DA would probably ever have known about these rulings if we didn't find and discuss them in an open forum. :kest:

Liberty1
07-24-2008, 5:26 PM
Who dug up Overturf anyway. It's like with Hale, no DA would probably ever have known about these rulings if we didn't find and discuss them in an open forum. :kest:

I feel the same way about 626.9. Most patrol officers I talk to don't know about it (unless your're school police) and wouldn't think of applying it to an OCer (they usually think 12031).

Overturf has been discussed for over a year here, is stickied on a major CCW website, and is mentioned in books on Ca. gun laws. Cats out of the bag:p we might as well be aware of it.

Son Of Heller, loaded OC or shall issue CCW etc...,puts those stupid cases and laws on their death bed thankfully.