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nicki
07-23-2008, 3:08 AM
Orange county has a new sheriff and she talks about tightening up the CCW process.

Sheriff Corona' policies were not the best, but they were going in the right direction.

Many of the current ccw holders who may have their permits pulled are interconnected with each other.

Potentially she could create a pool of clients for a massive class action civil rights lawsuit on both 2nd and 14th amendment issues.

If the sheriff starts revoking in mass ccw permits, she will have created a class of "cinderella plantiffs". Orange county had close to 3000 permits, she could potentially create a pool of plantiffs anywhere from 300 to 1500 people.

This group of people should be able to fund their own lawsuit, but what happens to them will effect ccw issuance all over the state.

I was thinking that Sheriff Baca of LA would be the person we need to target for a ccw lawsuit, but this new sheriff is potentially setting herself up to actually be a better target.

The guys in Orange county are competent and can and should run their own show.

What I propose is very simple. The rest of us in the state can volunteer to be the Calvary or better yet, a wolf pack.

Speaking of the rest of the state. Some people in this state live in ccw friendly counties and don't want to do anything to rock the boat.

Well, what is happening in Orange county shows what can happen in any county if a good sheriff is replaced with a bad one.

A good court case throwing out the "good cause" requirement for getting a ccw permit would leave us a ccw system we could work with.

nicki
07-23-2008, 3:15 AM
With Heller, alot of gun owners will evolve from being lambs to being adolesant pups. It is up to us to groom them into hungry wolves.

The first thing we need to understand is this will be alot of fun. Many public officials annoy us. My proposal is that we are going to make their lives a living hell.

Defense sucks because you always have to be ready for battle and that is tiring.

Offense is great because you pick when and where you are going to fight and only do so after you are well rested and envigorated.

Major areas we need to look at

1. Political action
2. Court action
3. Public relations.

Any thoughts guys, share them.

Nicki

Kruzr
07-23-2008, 6:49 AM
Well, what is happening in Orange county shows what can happen in any county if a good sheriff is replaced with a bad one.
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?

-hanko
07-23-2008, 6:52 AM
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?
Welcome to San Mateo county;)

-hanko

jacques
07-23-2008, 7:05 AM
With Heller, alot of gun owners will evolve from being lambs to being adolesant pups. It is up to us to groom them into hungry wolves.

The first thing we need to understand is this will be alot of fun. Many public officials annoy us. My proposal is that we are going to make their lives a living hell.

Defense sucks because you always have to be ready for battle and that is tiring.

Offense is great because you pick when and where you are going to fight and only do so after you are well rested and envigorated.

Major areas we need to look at

1. Political action
2. Court action
3. Public relations.

Any thoughts guys, share them.

Nicki

I see a lot of people who were on the fence as far as gun control, and even though they do not own guns, realized after Heller it is actually a right.

I have mentioned here before that it would be nice to have a target politician each year to try and oust from office. Whether it be recall, a strong opposing candidate supported by NRA and other groups. We did a recall here on Gail Marshall. She sold out Goleta with the building of the Bacara and taking away beach access. The recall was not successful, but she did not run again.

Public relations? I have seen U-tube videos posted around here that are pro-2nd. I have never, ever seen one on TV in Calif. Though there may not be media interest, competition and such make a good venue for public relations.

RomanDad
07-23-2008, 7:19 AM
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?


I think Nicki meant "Good" in terms of CCW issuance.

Guntech
07-23-2008, 7:34 AM
Welcome to San Mateo county;)

-hanko

Yeah minus the CCW since they dont issue them to anyone

Casual Observer
07-23-2008, 7:47 AM
Orange county has a new sheriff and she talks about tightening up the CCW process.

Sheriff Corona' policies were not the best, but they were going in the right direction.

Many of the current ccw holders who may have their permits pulled are interconnected with each other.

Potentially she could create a pool of clients for a massive class action civil rights lawsuit on both 2nd and 14th amendment issues.

If the sheriff starts revoking in mass ccw permits, she will have created a class of "cinderella plantiffs". Orange county had close to 3000 permits, she could potentially create a pool of plantiffs anywhere from 300 to 1500 people.

This group of people should be able to fund their own lawsuit, but what happens to them will effect ccw issuance all over the state.

I was thinking that Sheriff Baca of LA would be the person we need to target for a ccw lawsuit, but this new sheriff is potentially setting herself up to actually be a better target.

The guys in Orange county are competent and can and should run their own show.

What I propose is very simple. The rest of us in the state can volunteer to be the Calvary or better yet, a wolf pack.

Speaking of the rest of the state. Some people in this state live in ccw friendly counties and don't want to do anything to rock the boat.

Well, what is happening in Orange county shows what can happen in any county if a good sheriff is replaced with a bad one.

A good court case throwing out the "good cause" requirement for getting a ccw permit would leave us a ccw system we could work with.

IIRC, OC only had about 1800 or so current CCWs, which includes those issued to judges and reserve officers / deputies which won't be touched.

As for the rest, it's looking like those who got a CCW because they go to the range a few times a week will likely have theirs pulled. Those with a job-related need will be fine.

A lawsuit may or may not be the best course of action. the new sheriff is just finishing Corona's term. There's an election in 2010 for the new Sheriff and if Hunt runs again, I suspect he'll likely win and he is *VERY* pro CCW. With an election less than 2 years away, is it wise to start a court process that can take years with the various appeals when the decision could be rendered moot by the election of a new sheriff?

Oh, and by the way, you spelled "Cavalry" wrong. Calvary is the hill where Christ was crucified.

hawk1
07-23-2008, 7:49 AM
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?

So, the verdict already came out? Or do you have some personal information that proves this? If so, you should contact the courts and offer it up.
Oh, I get it, you heard in on the TV so it must be true...:rolleyes:

Guntech
07-23-2008, 7:52 AM
IIRC, OC only had about 1800 or so current CCWs, which includes those issued to judges and reserve officers / deputies which won't be touched.

As for the rest, it's looking like those who got a CCW because they go to the range a few times a week will likely have theirs pulled. Those with a job-related need will be fine.

A lawsuit may or may not be the best course of action. the new sheriff is just finishing Corona's term. There's an election in 2010 for the new Sheriff and if Hunt runs again, I suspect he'll likely win and he is *VERY* pro CCW. With an election less than 2 years away, is it wise to start a court process that can take years with the various appeals when the decision could be rendered moot by the election of a new sheriff?

Oh, and by the way, you spelled "Cavalry" wrong. Calvary is the hill where Christ was crucified.

Deputies need CCWs? Aren't they qualified LEO's?

Casual Observer
07-23-2008, 7:54 AM
Deputies need CCWs? Aren't they qualified LEO's?

reserve deputies only have LEO powers when actually on duty. But that doesn't mitigate the risk they face when not on duty. They are given CCWs more for their own protection then the need to be "always on duty" like full time LEOs.

zok
07-23-2008, 9:23 AM
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?

+1.........I think it is a good thing that She is looking for week causes. I do not think going to the range on a regular bases is good enough cause. Sorry.... Or SOME kind of favor either...Sorry... If you have a tight and good cause, then that is a different story.

CHS
07-23-2008, 9:33 AM
+1.........I think it is a good thing that She is looking for week causes. I do not think going to the range on a regular bases is good enough cause. Sorry.... Or SOME kind of favor either...Sorry... If you have a tight and good cause, then that is a different story.

I've got a good cause for you.

let me see here, I'll try to dig it up for you....

OH YEAH, it's my 2nd amendment right to keep and BEAR arms. That's not a good enough cause for you?

You're one of those people that thinks I need a real threat to my person before I can justify cause? What if it's too late then?

Hey criminals, if you don't mind, would you please let me know beforehand when you're going to try to kill me, see that way I can go through a rigorous multiple-month process to get a CCW so that I can defend myself when you come around. Thank you! Those bad guys are so nice, always thinking of their victims first.

Glock22Fan
07-23-2008, 9:42 AM
I do not think going to the range on a regular bases is good enough cause.

And you are on our side?

It isn't how many times you go to the range, it's whether you may become a victim of violence. How many victims of violence do you know who got advance notice? A violent attack could happen to anyone, range goer or not, reserve or not, carrier of vast sums of money or not; therefore anyone and everyone has a "Good Cause."

Alan Block
07-23-2008, 10:48 AM
Yeah, guns are forbidden in most churches.... but not in a Cavalry Church!

ohsmily
07-23-2008, 11:02 AM
The rest of us in the state can volunteer to be the Calvary .


:confused: I want to help but am not sure what you are asking us to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary

gn3hz3ku1*
07-23-2008, 11:03 AM
So sheriff's are good no matter how many favors they give for cash so long as they issue CCW's?

i was thinking the same thing....

Kruzr
07-23-2008, 11:19 AM
So, the verdict already came out? Or do you have some personal information that proves this? If so, you should contact the courts and offer it up.
Oh, I get it, you heard in on the TV so it must be true...:rolleyes:

If it walks like a duck and quacks.........

Juries found OJ and Robert Blake not guilty but it didn't change my opinion of who committed those crimes either.

And yes, I do believe what I read in the paper about cronies of Corona getting badges for contributions. I also believe what I read in the paper about his martial arts instructor, who had no training whatsoever as a LEO, being issued a badge and later pulling his gun on a golf course to threaten players for playing too slow.

I also believe that there are badges being recalled by the new sheriff from political contributors (one in the paper today) of Corona.

Each to his or her own opinions..........it's the American way.

hawk1
07-23-2008, 11:29 AM
And you are on our side?



No, zok is a Troll..:troll:..Don't feed the Trolls...

hawk1
07-23-2008, 11:32 AM
If it walks like a duck and quacks.........

Juries found OJ and Robert Blake not guilty but it didn't change my opinion of who committed those crimes either.

And yes, I do believe what I read in the paper about cronies of Corona getting badges for contributions. I also believe what I read in the paper about his martial arts instructor, who had no training whatsoever as a LEO, being issued a badge and later pulling his gun on a golf course to threaten players for playing too slow.

I also believe that there are badges being recalled by the new sheriff from political contributors (one in the paper today) of Corona.

Each to his or her own opinions..........it's the American way.

Let's try and stay on topic ok? I know it can be difficult but please try and focus.
We're talking CCW permits not some "badge" someone flashes around.
Address the point as concise as you can. If you can...

RomanDad
07-23-2008, 12:11 PM
Let's try and stay on topic ok? I know it can be difficult but please try and focus.
We're talking CCW permits not some "badge" someone flashes around.
Address the point as concise as you can. If you can...

Exactly.... Carona's "Buddies" got BADGES not mere CCWs...

Probably because there was nothing particularly SPECIAL about a Carona issued CCW... You didnt HAVE to be his buddy or campaign contributor to get one.

BIG campaign donors are always going to want 'something special' for their large contributions, whether it be a trinket they can show their friends or access to the candidate. At the very least, candidates are going to feel grateful to them and are going to want to repay the generosity... When a politician is involved, there is always going to be a thin line between heartfelt gratitude or honorarium, and bribery.

AEC1
07-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Hell I have 5k I can donate to the canadate that will give me a CCW in SD... Kidding... am I? yes... no... confused!!!

Theseus
07-23-2008, 1:35 PM
I still say we should sponsor the next LA Sheriff. . . I will put my name in. I have no LE background. And I see that a a plus not a minus. .

But seriously. . . I think that if I paid for and was legally issued a CCW and some new sheriff, that WAS NOT ELECTED BUT INSTALLED BY THE POLITICIANS revoked my CCW I would be VERY upset and make sure the people that put this person and the sheriff would be removed from office. . . but that might just be me.

steadyrock
07-23-2008, 2:19 PM
But seriously. . . I think that if I paid for and was legally issued a CCW and some new sheriff, that WAS NOT ELECTED BUT INSTALLED BY THE POLITICIANS revoked my CCW I would be VERY upset and make sure the people that put this person and the sheriff would be removed from office. . . but that might just be me.

You're exactly right, and that is one front the people of Orange County need to be focusing on starting now. Unfortunately, two of the three supervisors who appointed Hutchens got re-elected just hours after the appointment (most likely, the announcement was timed to avoid them risking votes). It will be a long haul, but Moorlach, Nguyen, and even Bates have all got to go.

Kruzr
07-23-2008, 3:51 PM
Let's try and stay on topic ok? I know it can be difficult but please try and focus.
We're talking CCW permits not some "badge" someone flashes around.
Address the point as concise as you can. If you can...
We're talking about what constitutes a "good" sheriff. We're talking about issuing CCW permits (and badges) to political donors without any training. We're talking about one of those cronies flashing a gun before he flashed his badge.

Practice what you preach. If you can.....

This was your entire post......nothing to do with the topic.

So, the verdict already came out? Or do you have some personal information that proves this? If so, you should contact the courts and offer it up.
Oh, I get it, you heard in on the TV so it must be true...

Don't expect to call someone out in an off topic remark and not get a response.

nicki
07-24-2008, 2:05 AM
I want to make it clear that I think all sheriffs should just scrap "good cause" accept a generic "personal protection" in the good cause statement and process the application and if a person passes background and takes training issue the CCW permit.

Sheriff Corona was far from perfect, but he was moving in the right direction.
He certainly was better than the prior sheriff.

I thought that Sheriff Baca should be targeted on the CCW issues, but if Sheriff Hutchens starts pulling permits, it looks like Orange county should be in our crosshairs:43:

Orange county settled out of court a few years back in Federal court to avoid a Fed appeals ruling in Guillary versus Gates.

From what I hear was a substantial amount of money.

If they have to be taken in again on the same issue and instead of having one plantiff, they have a few hundred, well, lets say it will get very expensive.

The issue transcends guns, it goes to responsible use of tax dollars. Tax dollars wasted on lawsuits are tax dollars deverted from education or as our opponents say, "the children".

The CCW law has already taken court hits on equal protection issues in both the Fed 9th circuit and the state courts.

PonchoTA
07-24-2008, 5:39 AM
I want to make it clear that I think all sheriffs should just scrap "good cause" accept a generic "personal protection" in the good cause statement and process the application and if a person passes background and takes training issue the CCW permit.

Sheriff Corona was far from perfect, but he was moving in the right direction.
He certainly was better than the prior sheriff.

I thought that Sheriff Baca should be targeted on the CCW issues, but if Sheriff Hutchens starts pulling permits, it looks like Orange county should be in our crosshairs:43:

Orange county settled out of court a few years back in Federal court to avoid a Fed appeals ruling in Guillary versus Gates.

From what I hear was a substantial amount of money.

If they have to be taken in again on the same issue and instead of having one plaintiff, they have a few hundred, well, lets say it will get very expensive.

The issue transcends guns, it goes to responsible use of tax dollars. Tax dollars wasted on lawsuits are tax dollars diverted from education or as our opponents say, "the children".

The CCW law has already taken court hits on equal protection issues in both the Fed 9th circuit and the state courts.

:iagree: Very well put nicki! Those are exactly my thoughts as well!

I can't think of a BETTER reason to want to carry than "Personal Protection". But the thought of personal responsibility is alien to the lefty mind and that's what we're fighting here. As long as the left continues to equate EVERYBODY who has a gun with being bad, we'll never make ground. Unfortunately, no matter how many stories are told, how much evidence is presented to the contrary, that LESS gun control equals LESS violent crime, they will never believe it, nor will they change their minds. Guns = bad, gun carrier = bad guy. Period.
:(

Al Sharpton said on an interview that if everybody was armed, with "thousands of guns", that would make him (people) nervous that they could be somebody's next victim. :TFH:

My argument is that if you know the other person might be armed, would you even try to make them a victim?

The anti's can't make that connection and that's what is killing us (so to speak!)

tankerman
07-24-2008, 6:21 AM
Orange county has a new sheriff and she talks about tightening up the CCW process.
When did the new Sherriff say this?

Kruzr
07-24-2008, 8:02 AM
When did the new Sherriff say this?
The day she was sworn in she said she would review the policy and the issued permits. She said she would revoke those that don't fit into the new policy.

Yesterday, she announced that she had a new policy for CCW's. She said:

Before Sheriff Sandra Hutchens revealed her new comand staff today, she told reporters about a policy she has drafted on concealed weapons permits.

Responding to criticisms of former Sheriff Mike Carona’s policy as rewarding his political cronies, Hutchens said she will bar the issuing of any CCWs as a political or social favor. Anyone seeking to get a permit must demonstrate “credible, significant and substantiated” threats to their safety, she said, and they will be subjected to a background check. Anyone with a felony conviction, a misdemeanor charge involving violence or a misdemeanor charge in the last five years will be barred from the permits, Hutchens said.

Hutchens said her aim is to be “consistent, equitable and fair.”

Gator Monroe
07-24-2008, 8:10 AM
60 to 80% of LEO higher ups are somewhat against Private Firearms ownership by civilians !:eek:

tankerman
07-24-2008, 9:45 AM
60 to 80% of LEO higher ups are somewhat against Private Firearms ownership by civilians !:eek:
That's because private firearm ownership is a threat to their controlling personalities and their own perceived authoritarian paramilitary power structure..

Gator Monroe
07-24-2008, 9:47 AM
That's because private firearm ownership is a threat to their controlling personalities and their own perceived authoritarian paramilitary power structure..

We Agree ! (See we can all get along):eek::)

Glock22Fan
07-24-2008, 9:56 AM
Responding to criticisms of former Sheriff Mike Carona’s policy as rewarding his political cronies, Hutchens said she will bar the issuing of any CCWs as a political or social favor. Anyone seeking to get a permit must demonstrate “credible, significant and substantiated” threats to their safety, she said, and they will be subjected to a background check. Anyone with a felony conviction, a misdemeanor charge involving violence or a misdemeanor charge in the last five years will be barred from the permits, Hutchens said.

Hutchens said her aim is to be “consistent, equitable and fair.”

This is just a bland vanilla statement of the law. There is still a lot of room for flexibility in how it will be interpreted, but it does sound as if some, maybe many, current holders will be disappointed.

If she really does exercise this policy in a fair manner, there may be very little anyone can do to unseat it, or her, in court.

Casual Observer
07-24-2008, 10:13 AM
Responding to criticisms of former Sheriff Mike Carona’s policy as rewarding his political cronies, Hutchens said she will bar the issuing of any CCWs as a political or social favor. Anyone seeking to get a permit must demonstrate “credible, significant and substantiated” threats to their safety, she said, and they will be subjected to a background check. Anyone with a felony conviction, a misdemeanor charge involving violence or a misdemeanor charge in the last five years will be barred from the permits, Hutchens said.

Hutchens said her aim is to be “consistent, equitable and fair.”[/i]

Thats a far cry from Hunt's "personal protection" bar for good cause.

PonchoTA
07-24-2008, 10:17 AM
60 to 80% of LEO higher ups are somewhat against Private Firearms ownership by civilians !:eek:
But I've also heard that the same percentage of LEO's are in favor of the good guys arming themselves.

They'd rather write an arrest report on a caught perp or process a dead bad guy than investigate a homicide with unknown assailant.