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nicki
07-22-2008, 1:57 PM
I am going to ask everyone to recognize that we are interdependent on each other and ask that members of this board not to not only go out and do independent things, but to discourage others from doing so as well.

If someone has 50 K to spend on court actions, they are more than welcome to institute legal action, but most of us don't fit the bill.

I am going to plead, beg, get on my knees and ask people to refrain from blantant open unloaded carry. In most parts of the state it causes problems.

In areas where you can do it without problems, it isn't a political issue.
The sheriffs in those areas would probably issue ccw permits anyway.

For those of you who feel you need armed protection, go for a CCW permit, go to CalCCW.org. That board will help you guys with good cause statements. It is a great resource, use it.

The board asks that you not post your good cause publically, rather make a request for help, they help via PMs.

The Heller case was designed as a limited case to get a ruling on wheter the 2nd amendment is a individual right versus a collective right.

Scalia went to town and gave us way more than I expected:D

The Incorporation question is the key. The Incorporation of the 2nd amendment by the courts will open up the Genie of state and local court actions.

Once we have incorporation, we can then get a case establishing our right to open carry. Once the legislature is straight jacketed, we can have our open carry marches, we could even possibly have "Loaded" carry marches.

I want us to go on offense big time, but let's be effective. Let's lay down a solid foundation, then we can evolve into a wolf pack and tear our opponents apart piece by piece.

As we get more victories, more gun owners will evolve from sheeps into wolves and our wolf pack will grow bigger, stronger and hungrier.

Once we are at this point, then we can engage in some independent actions to have fun with our opponents. At this point, we would be able to really take advantage of targets of opportunity.

Independent action taken with calculated risks and limited loss potential is smart.

The Heller case represents above values.

Independent actions taken without regards to risks is reckless and potentially hurts everyone.

The Silveria case represents above values.

Our opponents are sheep and they will never grow into wolfs because they are mentally crippled with a dependent mindset. People with dependent mindsets are like Ostriches when faced with things they can't deal with.

They stick their heads into the sand and hope things will go away.

We will go away, after we eat their bodies and leave their heads stuck in the sand.:43:

The purpose of the marches would be of course to educate the public and to make a political statement (first amendment right).

Now where would we make the marches. Alot would depend on how many people would participate. I would lean towards starting in gun friendly areas first to build momentum, say Bakersfield, maybe Fresno,then onto larger areas like San Diego.

I don't think we should hit San Fran or LA unless we can get thousands of people to commit to being in the marches. For those cities, we need to give them a special treat.

The march I want for them would be sponsored not by the NRA or other traditional gun groups, but the Pink Pistols. This way, if the press tries to do a hatchet job, they are percieved as attacking the Gay community.

All marches of course need to have a public spokesperson. What would happen to the liberal mindset if that person was a transexual:eek:

Think about it, what are they going to do. It will be on a weekend, it will be some lower level editor that has to make a decision on a news story.

On weekends there really isn't any news, such a story could go nationwide.
Isn't this the type of thing you guys want, to make liberals squirm.:43:

If it goes nationwide, especially if we could get things rolling before the elections, it could become a Oct. surprise for our friend Obama who supposedly has found the second amendment.

We could make this happen if we are smart.:D

Such marches were done in Ohio a few years back and the result was the governor finally signed a CCW bill that he was stalling for 8 years.

We don't need a new CCW bill, the current law isn't that horrible except for the good cause portion. A Cal CCW permit doesn't have alot of no carry zones on it.

These marches will put pressure on sheriffs to issue CCW permits on a non discrimatory basis.

Hell, it could give us enough public support to actually recall this guys for refusal to issue ccw permits, especially if it comes out that the only people who get permits seem to be politically connected.

Long post, sorry guys, I just had something to say.

Its better to burn out, then fade awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Nicki

odysseus
07-22-2008, 2:05 PM
Such marches were done in Ohio a few years back and the result was the governor finally signed a CCW bill that he was stalling for 8 years.

We don't need a new CCW bill, the current law isn't that horrible except for the good cause portion. A Cal CCW permit doesn't have alot of no carry zones on it.

These marches will put pressure on sheriffs to issue CCW permits on a non discrimatory basis.

Hell, it could give us enough public support to actually recall this guys for refusal to issue ccw permits, especially if it comes out that the only people who get permits seem to be politically connected.


Nice write up, thanks for posting. My response is to this part, we need to empower the people with their inalienable rights, and keeping the CCW process in a bureaucratic dictatorship with a single LE decision maker is a failed system. SHALL issue for CCW in California.

.

CCWFacts
07-22-2008, 2:34 PM
Until we get some legal protection (from Heller), there's nothing to stop the leg. from banning all open carry. They could easily say, "all handguns must be transported unloaded in locked cases". If we ever start getting an OC movement like they had in Ohio, that's what would happen.

OC is not an effective tactic for reform until some court finds that it's a protected right and the leg. can't just take it away. Anyone who OCs prior to that time is putting the other legal efforts at risk.

MudCamper
07-22-2008, 2:37 PM
...

Gray Peterson
07-22-2008, 2:40 PM
You know, I had a really extensive post and it got deleted by the back space of the keyboard.

My own personal opinion is the following:

1) Calguns Foundation will not support further OC arrest situations in State Court. This is fine and their choice. In fact, I've suggested repeatedly that the UOC'ers here in California and other open carriers elsewhere supported the current cases that they have taken on: The Barker case and the Lin case. We (in the open carry movement) must make sure that we don't take resources away from Calguns while going after the Nordyke case, the AWB licensing cases, and others. I urge and plead everyone in the UOC movement in California that if they can afford to is to donate specific to those cases. Open carriers should not look like the leeches of the gun rights movement, and we should step up and donate since it is "us" that's doing the open carrying.

2) If you are aware of the following fact pattern: Calguns will not defend, you are aware of PC12031, PC 626.9, PC171b and ALL other state, federal, and local laws, then you must then make the choice of whether or not to do so. Even I myself tell the California UOC'ers to stop open carrying, there would be some who will follow my direction, and there will be some who won't. I myself am not a master of puppets. It would be extraordinarily hypocritical for myself, being that I led the turnaround of Washington State on police agency treatment of open carry of firearms in the last three years, to say "Don't open carry". I do agree with the sentiment, but there are some thoughts I have to counterpoint, which I will discuss next.

3) The fear of a complete ban on open carry. I'm not sure what "trunk guns" means, but there's also the other side of that particular ban coin. Let's say for a moment that the 2009 Legislature does ban open carry entirely or otherwise ban it off of private property.

Right this moment, the State of California has a single defense against a lawsuit against PC12031 and PC626.9, that is that some form of self defense carry is allowed in the form of open carry, but the state has determined that loaded open carry is unacceptable within city limits, and tells the federal court this (regardless of the statements in holdings and the dictum of the Heller). A US District judge *might* buy this argument, but then questions will arise about CCW and licensing thereof. The California Legislature passing a flat out open carry ban would completely destroy this argument and they'd have absolutely no defense but the "Souter" style defenses which rely completely on statistics on "gun violence" in cities and around schools to justify the regulation of a fundamental right. Do we think that Gould, O'Scannlain, and Alarcon (the 9th circuit's "gun case" panel) will do so? I think it's unlikely, but I don't have a crystal ball, and neither does anyone else.

That being said, and given the point that I make in #2, I can only control myself. Though this pledge only effects me, I myself pledge to not UOC in California until such time as is determined to have maximum effect to get CCW reform via sheriff capitulation. This pledge only effects myself.

Mute
07-22-2008, 2:51 PM
Given CA's political tendencies I tend to agree. We need to fight smart and choose actions that will push us forward.

PTL
07-22-2008, 2:55 PM
Open Carry is for the True MallNinja

bwiese
07-22-2008, 3:19 PM
Nicki, thank you for your wonderful, well-written, well-considered post!!

Gray Peterson
07-22-2008, 3:33 PM
nicki,

Definitely a great post. :)

pnkssbtz
07-22-2008, 3:42 PM
Prudence will save us a large deal of time and money, and in the end will gain us the advantage of being able to act at the right moment.

I can understand those who wish to press the OC thing, and I understand why, and to some extent I agree. But the stakes are really really high, and as such, I feel that picking and choosing our battles is much more important than keeping the boulder rolling.


+1 Excellent post Nick!

Army
07-22-2008, 7:53 PM
So, you suggest we ignore, or deny, our state and federal right to carry because some LE agencies fail to follow the law?

Gee, lets stop writing and opinion or commentary, just in case someone who doesn't understand libel gets upset.

Or better yet, lets allow Soldiers to occupy our homes in Yreka, because of the crime problem in San Diego.

I mean, no sense in upsetting anyone with our Constitutional rights.

Well, the hell with you naysayers. I will continue to fight for my rights...AND yours...by expressing my 2ndA right to self defense while openly carrying. You guys all talk good, but you talk of defeatism. Thanks for nothing.

bwiese
07-22-2008, 8:35 PM
Army,
Please see other thread started by BlackwaterOps regarding this.

This is for legal-political tactical reasons. In a relatively short time it'll be more useful and any drama won't have negative effects.

jacques
07-22-2008, 10:50 PM
Advice taken, from the other threads also. Not like I would, or ever had a reason to open carry or CCW. I just want my pistol grip in it's intended place, along with my magazines. Wouldn't this all make a nice Christmas present?

Paladin
07-23-2008, 1:11 AM
The Heller case was designed as a limited case to get a ruling on wheter the 2nd amendment is a individual right versus a collective right.

Scalia went to town and gave us way more than I expected:D

The Incorporation question is the key. The Incorporation of the 2nd amendment by the courts will open up the Genie of state and local court actions.

Once we have incorporation, we can then get a case establishing our right to open carry. Once the legislature is straight jacketed, we can have our open carry marches, we could even possibly have "Loaded" carry marches.

***

If it goes nationwide, especially if we could get things rolling before the elections, it could become a Oct. surprise for our friend Obama who supposedly has found the second amendment.Unfortunately, we won't be getting incorporation before the general election in November.

I agree that OC'ing (loaded or unloaded) at this point would be politically counterproductive.

What to do w/our time, money and effort as we wait for incorporation? IMO, the most important we ALL can do is to help McCain win and help the Repubs take back the US Senate to get more Sup Ct justices like Scalia/Thomas/Roberts/Alito and ensure that the "sons of Heller" see the light of day (e.g., a case stating that we have a 2nd A RKBA for self-defense outside of our homes).

For those who may not have read many of my previous posts, I think McCain would have been my last choice among all the Repubs in the primary, but even he is TONS better than Obama.

JM2C

I don't want to hijack Nicki's thread, so if you want to take this any further, please start a new one.

bohoki
07-23-2008, 9:50 AM
i figure the open carriers are like people poking the bull with sticks untill the bull gets angry then we call in a matador

they are trying to get the gubmints to make a law banning it so they can challenge it in court

becuase it seems easier challening a new law than an old established one generally they start out with an activist judge ruling an injunction stopping its enforcement and then putting the law to the test

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CitaDeL
07-23-2008, 11:07 AM
Open Carry is for the True MallNinja

Yeah, I am a mall ninja for exercizing one of my fundemental liberties, one ensconced in the supreme law of the land by other mall ninjas like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson and George Mason. I thank God the internet didn't exist then, as they too had their detractors- all their efforts would have been blogged away as trivial nonsense and people would be quickly urged to get back to the buisness as subjects of the English Crown.

I suppose you could also blame me for getting three or four people arrested on bogus charges for doing the same thing too... or prematurely hastening the advent of open carry in advance of Heller... Whatever.

We have all lost something, but some have made sacrifices so that others would not continue to be oppressed by tyranny not one day more. Personally, I would rather percieved as a 'mall ninja' than have never to have contributed anything at all.

As for being someone with a stick poking a bull until it gets angry. Yeah, I suppose it is like that- however it is our duty to keep the government subservient to the people- So, instead of it being 10-20 people across the state, poking the bull in the flank with a sharp stick, I believe it should be every armed man and woman. Were that the case, the bull wouldnt be angry- it would be afraid. But, as we all can see, you can't get three of us together to agree on anything. That is why we fail.

ryno066
07-23-2008, 11:46 AM
I got a deal for you. I'll do all the stuff you asked if you stop quoting Def Leppard. Deal. :rolleyes:

"Its better to burn out, then fade awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy."

Army
07-23-2008, 2:36 PM
So we are to stop doing what is legal, in order to wait for something to happen that may make the legal action...legal?

I'm not out to poke any bulls, I'm out to follow the state law and the federal Constitution. Question, how do you get the bull into the paddock without poking him? Right now, the bull has the run of the meadow to do what he pleases, but he belongs in the paddock, only to be let out when we need him to do his....purpose.

You propose to let him have the run of the meadow, while we wait until a neighbor decides when to poke him back into the paddock for us.

20-30 people get reported for "man with a gun". Are the police going to arrest all of us at once for obeying the law? Far too many gun owners complain about "nobody doing anything about (enter latest legislation)", and THEY are the ones sitting back and waiting for someone else to do something.

I have no worries about defending myself in court. The law is black and white and compelling. Open unloaded carry is legal and undeniable.

hoffmang
07-23-2008, 2:48 PM
I'd like to save the time of re-writing all of the issues addressed in the other thread. For a very short time open carrying in California is not strategically wise. That short time is certianly less than 9 months and on the other side is at least until 8/31.

-Gene

Liberty1
07-23-2008, 2:56 PM
Army is enjoying being "free" (sort of) before he get sent back to Iraq in a few weeks. I think we can indulge him his Ca UOC privilege. If he gets a ticket maybe he won't have to go? Or maybe when he gets back we'll have his Rights waiting for him at his door! :)

Army,
Do read BWOs thread. It may get you're blood up a little but make it to the end and tell us what you think.