Ade's is getting audited [Archive]

Dirtbiker

07-22-2008, 02:00 PM

Casual Observer

07-22-2008, 02:30 PM

I just came back from Ade's and he is in the middle on a surprise BOF audit. They took his books today and won't bring them back for 2 days.

Ade is a solid law abiding FFL so he has nothing to worry about. Just keep this in mind if you need anything from him as this will slow him down for a few days.

OC locals support Ade's Gun Shop as he is one of the good guys!

Must be the time of the year. We just went through our ATF audit about 2 weeks ago.

ptoguy2002

07-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Does this mean that I might get a phone call asking: did you purchase a (name of EBR 1), (name of EBR 2), (name of EBR 3), (name EBR 4)....?

Why did you purchase so many EBRs?

Blackwater OPS

07-22-2008, 02:49 PM

Does this mean that I might get a phone call asking: did you purchase a (name of EBR 1), (name of EBR 2), (name of EBR 3), (name EBR 4)....?

Why did you purchase so many EBRs?

I really doubt it, but if you do, just tell them to call 562-216-4444 (TMLLP).

Hopi

07-22-2008, 02:53 PM

Does this mean that I might get a phone call asking: did you purchase a (name of EBR 1), (name of EBR 2), (name of EBR 3), (name EBR 4)....?

Why did you purchase so many EBRs?

"PRANK CALLER, PRANK CALLER, PRANK CALLER!"

sorensen440

07-22-2008, 02:56 PM

so during the audit while bof has there books are they still able to sell firearms?

XCRmonger

07-22-2008, 03:02 PM

gotta love auditing. I hate it when they show up. :(

SkyStorm82

07-22-2008, 03:04 PM

So FFL's can get audited by BOF and the ATF?

Ironchef

07-22-2008, 03:11 PM

I think that's part of the deal being an FFL...open to random audits to make sure you're accounting for all transactions/transfers, etc. A friend of mine is FFL in my city and he does very little FFL transactions and he is required to have x amount of transfers per quarter/year and if he's buying too many guns, he has to balance them out with transfers to satisfy some requirements.

Spiggy

07-22-2008, 04:28 PM

jeeze, I hope it pans out, I need to do my transfer there

slowfire

07-22-2008, 04:35 PM

The rumor is that the audit was due in part to an incident at the shop. Did anyone hear about it? I heard it second hand so its just gossip so far.

BamBam-31

07-22-2008, 04:37 PM

Could you PM me what you heard?

Ade is a great guy. Hope everything works out for him.

Jorge

07-22-2008, 04:51 PM

Wow, and Sig day is coming up on July 26th. Hope this doesn't delay them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=110342

slowfire

07-22-2008, 05:09 PM

I'll answer this the way Bear308 did on the Firing Line Burbank thread.

Something turned up missing that wasn't supposed to be missing. I don't know how this will effect the pick-ups of firearms that are near the end of the 10 DROS period.

-hanko

07-22-2008, 05:33 PM

I'll answer this the way Bear308 did on the Firing Line Burbank thread.
Link??

-hanko

Kruzr

07-22-2008, 05:35 PM

If they took his books, I'd suggest you call before you go for a pick-up of a gun since he won't be able to log it out. :(

Blackwater OPS

07-22-2008, 05:35 PM

thefifthspeed

07-22-2008, 06:28 PM

This wasn't a suprise visit. Ade's knew they were comming in. They won't have anything to worry about, at least I hope not because I have a $3,500 rifle sitting there waiting for the 10 days to tick off.

acolytes

07-22-2008, 06:38 PM

Ade is a great guy. Home it turns out well.

hawk1

07-22-2008, 06:50 PM

For the guys that work there and post here, what's the word? Will we be able to pick up or not?

EOD Guy

07-22-2008, 07:40 PM

I just came back from Ade's and he is in the middle on a surprise BOF audit. They took his books today and won't bring them back for 2 days.

Ade is a solid law abiding FFL so he has nothing to worry about. Just keep this in mind if you need anything from him as this will slow him down for a few days.

OC locals support Ade's Gun Shop as he is one of the good guys!

That sounds like BS. I've never heard of them taking the books without arresting someone and shutting down the place. Also, what "books" were you referring to?

HCz

07-22-2008, 10:55 PM

My bet is that it was a routine audit. IIRC they call a short time before the audit to inform the store owner and then do it. I doubt if they took the book/log/whatever as ATF needs to check if the firearm is actually accounted for. So there is no reason to panic.

leelaw

07-22-2008, 11:14 PM

Wait, they seized the books?

They took his federally protected paperwork?

BOF doesn't do that on a routine audit - they come to the shop, they sit down in your uncomfortable chairs, and they inspect the paperwork.

thedrickel

07-23-2008, 01:13 AM

Maybe they just needed more time to copy all of the info out of the books . . .

Moonclip

07-23-2008, 02:07 AM

That sounds like BS. I've never heard of them taking the books without arresting someone and shutting down the place. Also, what "books" were you referring to?

True, they can take the books, doesn't mean the end of the world. Lets hope Ade does not have a bunch of paperwork errors. I wonder how the gun or whatever item it was turned up "missing" or just how many "missing" items there is? I'm glad I have no guns in that place at the moment.

I guess we will know soon.

halifax

07-23-2008, 05:36 AM

So FFL's can get audited by BOF and the ATF?

Yep. It's part of the yearly $115 "Dealer and Inspection Fee" with the DOJ.

Granted, I'm a small dealer but DOJ never even looked at my A/D book. They only made me account for any guns that were still in the 10-day limbo.

They didn't look at any 4473s either, but they did scrutinize the DROS paperwork.

Dirtbiker

07-23-2008, 09:08 AM

That sounds like BS. I've never heard of them taking the books without arresting someone and shutting down the place. Also, what "books" were you referring to?

Think whatever you want.

I was there before he opened and I watched the agents leave with his books. As for the surprise visit part...I only wrote what I was directly told by Ade.

This is no reason to panic. Ade knows what he is doing and this is only a short term PITA. I am just giving everyone here a heads up.

glockster

07-23-2008, 09:29 AM

Well, it could very well be a routine visit. I know of another well-known shop that everyone here is familiar with in SoCal and they were audited last week. They selected some DROSs to audit and those purchasers were not allowed to pick up their firearms for 2 days while the paperwork was audited. Out of respect for the FFL, I won't mention the name.

liketoshoot

07-23-2008, 10:03 AM

Yea my FFL gets grumpy when they show up because they always pick out something small that gets him running around like a crazed chicken to satisfy their need to prove themselfs needed. He'll be OK

slowfire

07-23-2008, 09:06 PM

I wish someone who works at the shop would chime in and give us some hard information. All the posts (even mine) except the posts about the books being taken (Dirtbiker's) from the shop is hearsay.

Blue

07-23-2008, 09:16 PM

I wish someone who works at the shop would chime in and give us some hard information. All the posts (even mine) except the posts about the books being taken (Dirtbiker's) from the shop is hearsay.

I wish more dealers would post on here.

cush

07-23-2008, 11:44 PM

I was there last Friday and they mentioned the audit.
Don't remember if it was in process or coming up.
They didn't treat it like a big deal, just something slightly annoying that had to be done.
And only annoying it that it was an interruption, no real complaint.
Since I picked up on Friday, I had no reason to inquire about details.
-cush

Moonclip

07-23-2008, 11:48 PM

hawk1

07-24-2008, 08:23 AM

I know for a fact ATF was there. People I know could not pick up guns that day.

They were there. Atleast on 7/17, the day stomach and I met there so I could buy his Colt Cobra. They were in the back with Ade doing whatever they do...
The "books" they left with, if they left with any, could have been from last month or last year.
No one yet has said they were stopped from picking up their purchase.

No big deal so far...

k-101

07-24-2008, 06:02 PM

I was there on monday to pick up a rifle and he mentioned the atf audit,

edited: to remove rude comment

domokun

07-24-2008, 07:43 PM

I was there on monday to pick up a rifle and he mentioned the atf audit, he also forgot to get my fingerprint on the PPT papers so they called me on tuesday and said I needed to come in and now I have to drive all the way back out there to put my fingerprint on the papers.:( bull **** imo, last time i checked gas wasnt free

Gas isn't free but losing a OLL friendly FFL hurts and costs us as a community even more than what was paid in gas... :rolleyes:

virulosity

07-24-2008, 09:14 PM

I just picked up a rifle on tuesday after my 10 days so you guys that are worried should be fine.

shooterdave

07-24-2008, 11:40 PM

i just picked up a lower assembly today you guys are fine.

Moonclip

07-25-2008, 12:17 AM

Correct, I specifically drove by there today to see what was going on and not just rumors that many like to spread. Open for business and people doing "gun stuff".

Taking "books" can be part of a normal ATF audit as I mentioned.

Amendment II

07-25-2008, 08:10 PM

Taking "books" can be part of a normal ATF audit as I mentioned.

The OP said that the "books" were taken by BOF, not ATF.

Federal law requires that an FFL's bound books be retained at the licensed premises. Federal law forbids BATFE agents from removing an FFL's bound books from his licensed premesis, unless they constitute "material evidence of a violation of law."

In a normal audit, BATFE agents are supposed to make copies, not take the originals.

§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.

(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law.

§ 478.121 General.

(a) The records pertaining to firearms transactions prescribed by this part shall be retained on the licensed premises in the manner prescribed by this subpart and for the length of time prescribed by § 178.129.

Moonclip

07-26-2008, 01:08 AM

The OP said that the "books" were taken by BOF, not ATF.

Federal law requires that an FFL's bound books be retained at the licensed premises. Federal law forbids BATFE agents from removing an FFL's bound books from his licensed premesis, unless they constitute "material evidence of a violation of law."

In a normal audit, BATFE agents are supposed to make copies, not take the originals.

Interesting, another FFL told me they took books before as if was normal, hmmm. Maybe as mentioned confusion between ATF and BOF. I know the people there today were ATF unless Ade told me wrong me by accident as I was there today buying something and they were there again.

Hopefully this all ends ok by early next week.

PIRATE14

07-26-2008, 11:41 AM

Interesting, another FFL told me they took books before as if was normal, hmmm. Maybe as mentioned confusion between ATF and BOF. I know the people there today were ATF unless Ade told me wrong me by accident as I was there today buying something and they were there again.

Hopefully this all ends ok by early next week.

Well there has always been the discussion on the A&D book on where it has to be.....if the ATF Inspectors want to take it, they can......they have to sign for it and let you know when it'll be back.....you can still operate as normal w/o it.

Now more than likely they are duplicating the entire book....here is where it gets interesting.....now they are supposed to only hold copies for the length of their inspection but they are probably compiling a big data base....

I know our inspection took over 9 mos to complete....

From my perspective they've hit about every major FFL in the state in the last two years.....

GlockOn

07-26-2008, 08:13 PM

WOW. I had no idea there was such a stir on here. No one PM'ed me.... Let me set the record straight.

BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) (Federal), came in for a unannounced inspection week before last. As it was unannounced, we were not as prepared for it, as far as being SUPER ORGANIZED, as we would have been had we known it was going to take place. The day after BATFE arrived for inspection we did have an incident. While the incident was a set back, it's since been resolved. The person involved was arrested, charged with five felonies and one misdemeanor, and is now exploring the inner workings of our wonderful legal system. It really wasn't a big deal, and wasn't half as exciting as one might think.
Yes, BATFE "borrowed" our books in order to perform audits on them without having to be sitting in the store doing it.
BATFE is still in the course of their inspection, and we aren't sure when it will end, but we hope soon. This WOULD be classified as a ROUTINE inspection, and is nothing to get excited about, it's just a long process.

This has had very little affect on our business. We HAVE NOT failed to release any guns as a result of this inspection. Even with our A & D books being gone for 1 day last week (they have since been returned), it was pretty much business as usual. All this inspection is doing is taking time. The BATFE Agents have been courteous and professional.

So that's the story from the insider... lol. I really do appreciate everyone's concern, and hopefully we will get through this soon. I appreciate those who have stood up for us in the previous posts, you guys are awesome. We hope to be back to normal ASAP.

slowfire

07-26-2008, 09:21 PM

Thanks for the hard informtion GlockOn.

Moonclip

07-27-2008, 12:03 AM

Well there has always been the discussion on the A&D book on where it has to be.....if the ATF Inspectors want to take it, they can......they have to sign for it and let you know when it'll be back.....you can still operate as normal w/o it.

Now more than likely they are duplicating the entire book....here is where it gets interesting.....now they are supposed to only hold copies for the length of their inspection but they are probably compiling a big data base....

I know our inspection took over 9 mos to complete....

From my perspective they've hit about every major FFL in the state in the last two years.....

Yup I know another FFL in the area had a major inspection recently also, it seems to go in geographic regions, one up the street, than the next. I think ATF/DOJ is trying very hard to burn FFLs for paperwork violations lately, witness Lock,Stock and Barrel and especially Richs Arms.

GlockOn thanks for giving these people some real info and not spreading FUD. If I was that worried about ATF being at Ades I'd of not bought a gun there during all this mess. Hope Sig Sauer day went well! I will check that thread later.

GlockOn

07-29-2008, 12:57 PM

You're all welcome for the info. I only get on Calguns once every two to three weeks. I always like to search to see what people are saying about us, see how we can do better. That's when I noticed the stir about our inspection. I would have posted sooner if I had known what was going on on here. I just appreciate that people care what is going on. It means alot to Ade and I when we see the support we have on here, we sure do appreciate all of you. THANKS!!

Blackwater OPS

08-08-2008, 02:13 PM

packnrat

08-08-2008, 03:52 PM

hawk1

08-08-2008, 04:12 PM

i do not have anything at ade's...but iam waiting for a pistol at another shop...
it is not right to make anybody wait when the feds want to do a hunting trip through your books.

people should still be able to pick up there property when the delay time is up.

after all it is the law.

:mad:

.

Nobody is waiting to pick up their firearms. What brought you to that conclusion? :confused:
I picked up my Colt without a hitch while Ade is in the middle of this. Hell, Ade did my paperwork when I picked up. No problems at all.

jmlivingston

08-08-2008, 04:38 PM

I was in the shop last saturday, Ade was assisting me on a PPT that I was involved with. He said that the audit was scheduled to last "one more week", people were buying, picking up, and transferring while I was in the store.

Good thing I got there at opening, there was already a group of people hanging out front of the store before he opened!

John

Moonclip

08-08-2008, 05:49 PM

I head the audit continues...

What a surprise...

I hope this does not turn in to a Richs Arms type of deal.

BillCA

08-08-2008, 06:19 PM

I know for a fact ATF was there. People I know could not pick up guns that day.

I know of another well-known shop that everyone here is familiar with in SoCal and they were audited last week. They selected some DROSs to audit and those purchasers were not allowed to pick up their firearms for 2 days while the paperwork was audited.

ATF is prohibited by law from interfering with the lawful business being conducted in the store. They cannot, for example, prevent the owner/manager from servicing a customer, including the release of a legally purchased firearm.

I'm pretty sure this applies to BOF too.

Moonclip

08-08-2008, 06:42 PM

ATF is prohibited by law from interfering with the lawful business being conducted in the store. They cannot, for example, prevent the owner/manager from servicing a customer, including the release of a legally purchased firearm.

I'm pretty sure this applies to BOF too.

Hmmm...so either my friend lied to me, this is FUD, or ATF made up their own rule while conduction the audit? I'm thinking it is my 3rd option.

ocbruin

08-08-2008, 07:04 PM

Hmmm...so either my friend lied to me, this is FUD, or ATF made up their own rule while conduction the audit? I'm thinking it is my 3rd option.

Hard to tell, but it's also possible that with the auditors taking up employee time, your friend just didn't want to wait around to get served, or assumed that there would be a delay?

I have purchased and received a gun at Ade's without delay during this thing (picked up on Monday, Aug 4) with no problems.

Moonclip

08-08-2008, 07:07 PM

Hard to tell, but it's also possible that with the auditors taking up employee time, your friend just didn't want to wait around to get served, or assumed that there would be a delay?

I have purchased and received a gun at Ade's without delay during this thing (picked up on Monday, Aug 4) with no problems.

I'll ask my friend later, I know he will be honest with me,I'm pretty sure he was denied pickup. When I was there to purchase a pistol last week, the ATF was in there before the 1 PM opening, Ade told me that they were there since 9am. They opened just a few minutes late after the ATF agents swaggered out of there.

HCz

08-08-2008, 07:37 PM

Good thing I got there at opening, there was already a group of people hanging out front of the store before he opened!

Sounds like Ade's usual days:D

RT13

08-09-2008, 01:03 AM

Is it normal for these audits to take this long? Or are they digging fro something?

Moonclip

08-09-2008, 02:58 PM

Is it normal for these audits to take this long? Or are they digging fro something?

Good question, I feel it is taking longer than usual due to the stolen gun issue that IIRC was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Moonclip

08-09-2008, 03:49 PM

Hard to tell, but it's also possible that with the auditors taking up employee time, your friend just didn't want to wait around to get served, or assumed that there would be a delay?

I have purchased and received a gun at Ade's without delay during this thing (picked up on Monday, Aug 4) with no problems.

OK, I asked my friend, it weasn't really an ATF issue why he couldn't pick up his gun. Ade misplaced it, couldn't find it, 2nd-3rd time this has happened to my firned.

It has happened to me also. Ades seems notorious for this and I'm sure the stress of an ATF audit didn't help matters either.

Blackwater OPS

08-09-2008, 03:53 PM

OK, I asked my friend, it weasn't really an ATF issue why he couldn't pick up his gun. Ade misplaced it, couldn't find it, 2nd-3rd time this has happened to my firned.

It has happened to me also. Ades seems notorious for this and I'm sure the stress of an ATF audit didn't help matters either.

Yeah, but he makes up for it by being a very cool guy.

GlockOn

08-09-2008, 03:54 PM

The length of the inspection has NOTHING to do with the theft issue you are talking about. It has to do with the fact that it has been over 3 years since our last inspection and we have conducted a lot of business in that time period. Let me also assure everyone, as I said before, to my knowledge, NO ONE, has been prevented from picking up their gun since this started as a result of the BATFE. If someone was prevented from picking up their gun it was for a different issue. BATFE has completed their physical inspection and is now in the process of inspecting our paperwork. Thankfully they are doing that in their office instead of in our shop. I know I appreciate not having to come in early to help them with it. :) Things have been a little rocky this week due to the fact that Ade has been out, as he has been packing and moving into a new house. Ade should be back this coming monday. I appreciate the patience and understanding you all have had with us over the last few weeks. This has been a very stressful time for all of us, most of all Ade. It looks like we will be coming to the end soon, and we are happy to see just a little light at the end of the tunnel. Have a nice weekend everybody.