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Sobriquet
07-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Has anyone heard an update on what's going on with the incorporation cases in Chicago or San Francisco?

I'm really anxious to hear something about a potential challenge to make the CCW laws in California shall-issue.

RomanDad
07-22-2008, 10:35 AM
Its been three weeks since the complaints were filed.... Its going to be MANY MONTHS TO YEARS before those are resolved.

Decoligny
07-22-2008, 11:07 AM
Has anyone heard an update on what's going on with the incorporation cases in Chicago or San Francisco?

I'm really anxious to hear something about a potential challenge to make the CCW laws in California shall-issue.

Incorporation is the first step to setting up the challenges to the laws as they currently stand. However, even though the Chicago and S.F. cases may be years away from decisions, it may not take as long as some think for incorporation to occur. The case discussed in the link has been ongoing for years and was held back due to a ruling that the 2A was a collective right. It may now procede to a favorable conclusion via the Heller ruling overturning the collective right ruling.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=111557

HunterJim
07-22-2008, 11:37 AM
Meanwhile we wait. To occupy your time during the tedious process I suggest you contact your state Legislators and ask them to change our law to "shall issue". I asked my Senator and Assembly person (both liberal Democrat women) to take action, and suggested to them that they would really rather put their own system in place before we put a piecemeal system in place for them as a result of court cases.

So far they are both ignoring me with great vigor, but I will keep reminding them.

jim
San Diego

Sobriquet
07-22-2008, 12:49 PM
Incorporation is the first step to setting up the challenges to the laws as they currently stand. However, even though the Chicago and S.F. cases may be years away from decisions, it may not take as long as some think for incorporation to occur. The case discussed in the link has been ongoing for years and was held back due to a ruling that the 2A was a collective right. It may now procede to a favorable conclusion via the Heller ruling overturning the collective right ruling.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=111557

Thanks for posting that.

aileron
07-22-2008, 12:50 PM
Yea pay attention to Nordyke v. King as posted above, its still going to take a while regardless. Patience.

BTW, love the avatar and handle. :D

Darn you beat me by one minute. LOL!

yellowfin
07-22-2008, 2:04 PM
I'll be sure to tell the lurkers in gas station parking lots and shady folks around the corner from ATM's to wait patiently while the legal system works in fractions of a milimeter a year towards my inevitable right to defend myself. When seconds count, your rights are only a few years (or on the other side of state lines) away.

hoffmang
07-22-2008, 2:17 PM
I'll be sure to tell the lurkers in gas station parking lots and shady folks around the corner from ATM's to wait patiently while the legal system works in fractions of a milimeter a year towards my inevitable right to defend myself.

Black people waited 100 years to be citizens. I don't get why 6-9 months to have real constitutional protection for guns is such a problem.

Things of value don't come cheap or easily. At least this time around no one has to die...

-Gene

chris
07-22-2008, 2:21 PM
Black people waited 100 years to be citizens. I don't get why 6-9 months to have real constitutional protection for guns is such a problem.

Things of value don't come cheap or easily. At least this time around no one has to die...

-Gene

i agree gene that 6 to 9 months is no big deal. i do see why people could be in a rush we have been beaten up here in this state and now we would like some payback that being incoperation. that would be a strong first step in using heller if i'm correct.

but i digress that i will be patient and wait to see what will happen. heck the heller decision was more than i thought. so guys lets be patient and let things work themselves out.

i too would love to have the state legislators eat crow raw after denying our rights for so many years. there time will come soon i hope and 6 to 9 months is no problem.

Sobriquet
07-22-2008, 4:29 PM
Black people waited 100 years to be citizens. I don't get why 6-9 months to have real constitutional protection for guns is such a problem.

Things of value don't come cheap or easily. At least this time around no one has to die...

-Gene

Gene, I'd be satisfied with 6-9 months. My concern is that I haven't seen someone with your influence say definitively that they're going to work on changing the CCW laws in this state. Please don't take that as a criticism - I'm thankful for all you do for the rights of gun owners in California. I'm merely expressing frustration that I haven't seen a legal "road map" or plan that included that as one of its goals.

The real problem is that none of us know when, or if, we'll be the victim of violent crime. I got lucky a number of years ago when I had a home invasion that it turned out OK. I've put my mind at ease from that happening again because I now have a gun for home defense.

Less than two months ago, though, a guy tried to mug me while I was walking back to my car after working late. The guy grabbed me and I fought him off - but all I could think about at the time was "I hope he doesn't have his gun on him when I don't have mine."

Decoligny
07-22-2008, 8:19 PM
Gene, I'd be satisfied with 6-9 months. My concern is that I haven't seen someone with your influence say definitively that they're going to work on changing the CCW laws in this state. Please don't take that as a criticism - I'm thankful for all you do for the rights of gun owners in California. I'm merely expressing frustration that I haven't seen a legal "road map" or plan that included that as one of its goals.

The real problem is that none of us know when, or if, we'll be the victim of violent crime. I got lucky a number of years ago when I had a home invasion that it turned out OK. I've put my mind at ease from that happening again because I now have a gun for home defense.

Less than two months ago, though, a guy tried to mug me while I was walking back to my car after working late. The guy grabbed me and I fought him off - but all I could think about at the time was "I hope he doesn't have his gun on him when I don't have mine."

Shall issue CCW would be an improvement but, I would prefer CA to be more like VA, in being a shall issue state, where if you choose to, you may open carry a LOADED gun without the need for a license. Even better would be like Alaska or Vermont. I for one would love to be able to carry a loaded firearm openly or concealed anywhere I pleased to go. Without having to ask for permission from any government agency, without having to pay for the privilege. After all, it is a RIGHT to keep and bear arms. If I require government permission it isn't a right, it is only a privilege.

hoffmang
07-22-2008, 8:36 PM
Sobriquet,

Shall issue CCW is one of the top 3 issues in my book. The other two are AWs, and the handgun list. I put AWs this high because getting that right is going to take finesse and there are larger downside risk. The issue that almost gets that high for me is the magazine capacity limitations, but my point is that with way too much to do, there is a puzzle set of how best in time to go about things. Getting incorporation on cases that are simpler - complete ban on guns in housing, complete ban on guns at a gunshow - makes it easier to make the less widely loved points about CCW, open carry, "safe" handguns, etc.

-Gene

Sobriquet
07-23-2008, 8:05 AM
Sobriquet,

Shall issue CCW is one of the top 3 issues in my book. The other two are AWs, and the handgun list. I put AWs this high because getting that right is going to take finesse and there are larger downside risk. The issue that almost gets that high for me is the magazine capacity limitations, but my point is that with way too much to do, there is a puzzle set of how best in time to go about things. Getting incorporation on cases that are simpler - complete ban on guns in housing, complete ban on guns at a gunshow - makes it easier to make the less widely loved points about CCW, open carry, "safe" handguns, etc.

-Gene

I'm glad to hear you say that. Have any of the fine folks at T&M, or anyone else fighting the good fight, given any sort of estimate regarding when we could see a legal challenge to CCW? Are we talking a year? 5?

Like many Calgunners, I'm supportive of the motives behind Open Carry, but it's not something I'm willing to do.

hoffmang
07-23-2008, 11:10 AM
I'm glad to hear you say that. Have any of the fine folks at T&M, or anyone else fighting the good fight, given any sort of estimate regarding when we could see a legal challenge to CCW? Are we talking a year? 5?

There is surprising unanimity on what the strategy going forward is. It is war though, so as certain battles are fought - their outcome may change timing and planning.

Timing is fluid. I expect we have Incorporation before the end of Q1 2009. However, if Nordyke goes off track, it will take most of 2009 to get to the final stages of the San Francisco case. Once that is complete, carry restrictions are going to be the next most obvious place to challenge - and I can tell you that's a thought shared pretty universally through the coalition.

-Gene

Paladin
07-23-2008, 12:37 PM
However, if Nordyke goes off track, it will take most of 2009 to get to the final stages of the San Francisco case. Once that is complete, carry restrictions are going to be the next most obvious place to challenge - and I can tell you that's a thought shared pretty universally through the coalition.Why wait for incorporation? If the next step is getting SCOTUS to say there is a 2nd A RKBA for self-defense outside of the home, why not bring a "son of Heller" lawsuit now in D.C. (which, IIRC, neither allows OC nor issues CCWs)? By the time it works its way up the fed. judiciary, we'll already have incorporation in place. Thus, once this critical "son of Heller" gets decided, it will be immediately applied to all state and local gov'ts.

I haven't been around CGN much since Heller, so forgive me if this has already been hashed out.

hoffmang
07-23-2008, 1:15 PM
Why wait for incorporation? If the next step is getting SCOTUS to say there is a 2nd A RKBA for self-defense outside of the home, why not bring a "son of Heller" lawsuit now in D.C. (which, IIRC, neither allows OC nor issues CCWs)? By the time it works its way up the fed. judiciary, we'll already have incorporation in place. Thus, once this critical "son of Heller" gets decided, it will be immediately applied to all state and local gov'ts.

I haven't been around CGN much since Heller, so forgive me if this has already been hashed out.

There are a couple of inter-related issues. First, we do have limited bandwidth in terms of good 2A lawyers total time. If you look at who filed Heller briefs that matter on our side, you can get a very good feel for the number of people we're talking about - call it 13 guys. Not all of those guys are litigators or appellate litigators (the difference matters.) Right this second, the thought is that all of those folks and their associated support folks are focused on the various incorporation cases (as we either want to win them all or very quickly drive a circuit split back to SCOTUS.) NRA beleives they can end DC's foolishness around keep very shortly. Read between the lines on this article (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-pressured-on-guns-2008-07-22.html).

If the legislative side can't come through, then I can gaurantee you that the keep side of DC will be challenged very quickly. Using DC for bear is probably not as wise as using the 5th or 9th. You'll win in the 5th and you have stronger odds of winning in the 9th than you do in DC. That's partially because DC still has the Seegars issue that was on appeal in Parker v. DC which is whether Parker has standing to sue. Arguably she does, but that clouds it up a bit and I'm not sure there is a CCW to apply for in DC.

-Gene

chris
07-23-2008, 1:54 PM
Sobriquet,

Shall issue CCW is one of the top 3 issues in my book. The other two are AWs, and the handgun list. I put AWs this high because getting that right is going to take finesse and there are larger downside risk. The issue that almost gets that high for me is the magazine capacity limitations, but my point is that with way too much to do, there is a puzzle set of how best in time to go about things. Getting incorporation on cases that are simpler - complete ban on guns in housing, complete ban on guns at a gunshow - makes it easier to make the less widely loved points about CCW, open carry, "safe" handguns, etc.

-Gene

gene i have to say the AW issues we have are on my list as too the magazine size that is just stupid to have. as if it had any impact on violence in the first place. but i understand with most here what is on the table now should be finished then move on to bigger and better things. again the great work you have done is outstanding to say the least.

Paladin
07-24-2008, 12:35 AM
Using DC for bear is probably not as wise as using the 5th or 9th. You'll win in the 5th and you have stronger odds of winning in the 9th than you do in DC.Thanks for your informative reply, Gene.

So should CGN and/or OC.org start seeking plaintiffs/defendants in HI for the 9th (HI rarely (never?) issues CCWs or licenses for OC), or TX for the 5th (TX has anti-OC laws)? I'm sure many of us in CA have contacts w/those states, esp HI.

As TBJ will tell you, tracking down and sifting out suitable plaintiffs is a major hurdle. Any reason to not start now?

hoffmang
07-24-2008, 11:57 AM
I would say that attempting to find support and a plaintiff in Texas for open carry would make a lot of sense.

The 9th Circuit plaintiffs are getting much easier to put together strictly do to this and the other complimentary forums.

-Gene

CCWFacts
07-24-2008, 12:31 PM
So should CGN and/or OC.org start seeking plaintiffs/defendants in HI for the 9th (HI rarely (never?) issues CCWs or licenses for OC), or TX for the 5th (TX has anti-OC laws)?

Well, now that we're talking about the 9th, let's talk about the 9th.

HI has a racist permit system much like California's, only worse. It says, right there in the statute, "must be a US citizen". That's quite hilarious. They are "may issue" just like CA, but they issue fewer permits. I've heard that they "never" issue, and I've heard that they issue for professional needs to PIs. I'm not sure which is accurate.

HI's system also gives a county permit only, so someone who isn't a resident of Honolulu county doesn't have any option at all for bearing arms in Honolulu.

But HI isn't the only island in the 9th. No, indeed it isn't. The 9th also covers:


Guam
Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNMI)


And indeed, Guam and Saipan (CNMI) have gun laws even more restrictive than Hawaii, and issue even fewer permits (if they even have permits) and have cultures which are even more anti-gun and corrupt and in need of a good firm slap to the forehead.

And they're not states.

Paladin
07-24-2008, 12:41 PM
I would say that attempting to find support and a plaintiff in Texas for open carry would make a lot of sense.Unless someone here beats me to it, tonight I'll go over to OCDO's forum and make a posting in their TX subforum.

swhatb
07-25-2008, 10:13 AM
bump.... good thread.