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BlackReef
07-21-2008, 6:31 PM
Brought home my new Addax Tactical Gas Piston Upper Receiver yesterday.

I currently have a MagPul UBR Stock on order, so I thought I would throw an old Carbine Stock on it so I can take some pictures.

Anyways, I am just blown away by the way the Addax Gas-Piston system functions. It is smooth, solid and I don't think I will EVER go back to a Gas impingement system again. (Except for the Armalite AR-10 I am building, moohahaha)

Here is the current setup for the Upper Receiver:

EOTech 512
Daniel Defense 12.0 Rail
Midwest Industries BUIS
YHM Diamond Fluted Barrel
PWS Compensator
VLTOR MUR Stripped Upper

Lower:
Spike's Tactical ST-15
DPMS Parts Kit
Magpul MIAD Grip

On Order:
Magpul UBR Stock
Magpul Trigger Guard
KNS Anti-Rotation Pins
Tangodown Vertical Foregrip w/ pressure pad pouch.

http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU7.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU5.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU4.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU3.png

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 6:32 PM
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU2.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU1.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU6.png
http://www.blackreefdesigns.com/misc/AR/GPU.png

Guntech
07-21-2008, 6:36 PM
Looks good man! Been thinking about getting a piston system

dd03
07-21-2008, 6:41 PM
Dang, that looks sweet!

Give us a range report when you can.

X-NewYawker
07-21-2008, 6:42 PM
I'm going to meet the fine folks at ADDAX tomorrow to discuss...

aplinker
07-21-2008, 6:43 PM
Looks nice.

I just don't think there's any advantage to a gas piston system besides the reduced cleaning.

SuperSet
07-21-2008, 6:47 PM
That upper looks sweet! I'd love to get a piston but two questions remain in my mind:

1. Accuracy. Can it successfully and consistently hold 1 MOA? I've seen some reports of other piston uppers' performance resembling a shotgun. Is the Addax upper different?

2. Any signs of carrier tilt? I'm looking forward to someone posting a 1000 rd torture test for this new setup.

m24armorer
07-21-2008, 6:48 PM
Keeps the crap out of your face when you are shooting left handed suppressed.

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 6:50 PM
Looks nice.

I just don't think there's any advantage to a gas piston system besides the reduced cleaning.

Is there any advantage to owning a 600 HP Exotic Sports Car? What about owning a Hayabusa that will do over 200MPH? What about owning an iPhone? What's the point? Its to have the latest, greatest product. I put 100rds through it yesterday, and I have never shot anything quite like it. It is so smooth, little or no recoil (granted, I have a PWS Brake on it) and it was so addicting to shoot. More addicting than anything else I have ever shot before.

Plus, it's the new mainstream technology for the AR Platform. The impingement system has been around since the 50's.

I'm happy with it. If you don't think the GPU serves a purpose - you don't need to spend your money on it. No need to come into a thread I started showing off my new toy and tell me that there is no advantage to owning a product like this.

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 6:52 PM
Many people got to shoot multiple Addax GPU's at Angeles yesterday. YES, it is very accurate. Me, my brother and a good friend were hitting the metal plate at 100+ yards with iron sights, consistently, from a standing position. And we are nowhere near good marksmen, but the GPU upper made us look like expert shots. I have NEVER been that accurate before


That upper looks sweet! I'd love to get a piston but two questions remain in my mind:

1. Accuracy. Can it successfully and consistently hold 1 MOA? I've seen some reports of other piston uppers' performance resembling a shotgun. Is the Addax upper different?

2. Any signs of carrier tilt? I'm looking forward to someone posting a 1000 rd torture test for this new setup.

tankerman
07-21-2008, 6:55 PM
Looks nice.

I just don't think there's any advantage to a gas piston system besides the reduced cleaning.
Are you now an ex-proponent of the gas piston system? Seem to recall a few months back you were talking about all the upsides to owning one.

J_Rock
07-21-2008, 7:02 PM
Are you now an ex-proponent of the gas piston system? Seem to recall a few months back you were talking about all the upsides to owning one.

There are upsides and downsides to an overhead gas piston. But there is no real advantage to having one other than less cleaning for a civilian use gun

aplinker
07-21-2008, 7:09 PM
I'm sorry but I wasn't aware that a thread where you're touting the marvel of gas piston ARs and attempting to proselytize newbs to how great they are is reserved solely for piston leg-humpers and somehow not the place to mention that there are essentially no advantages to an AR (read: NON-NFA enabled) with a gas piston.

You gain what from it? Your analogy is hardly accurate. It's more like saying, "You don't see the advantage of putting a Chevy engine in a Ford?" There's no remarkable performance enhancement with a gas piston. Unlike all of your analogies. If you want to drink piston kool-aid, that's fine with me, but don't try to tout it as something better than it is.

There is absolutely no way a gas piston system on an AR will do anything but reduce accuracy. Period. Facts are facts.

Is there any advantage to owning a 600 HP Exotic Sports Car? What about owning a Hayabusa that will do over 200MPH? What about owning an iPhone? What's the point? Its to have the latest, greatest product. I put 100rds through it yesterday, and I have never shot anything quite like it. It is so smooth, little or no recoil (granted, I have a PWS Brake on it) and it was so addicting to shoot. More addicting than anything else I have ever shot before.

Plus, it's the new mainstream technology for the AR Platform. The impingement system has been around since the 50's.

I'm happy with it. If you don't think the GPU serves a purpose - you don't need to spend your money on it. No need to come into a thread I started showing off my new toy and tell me that there is no advantage to owning a product like this.


Now that's a real advantage and legitimate. I'd also like to point out you suck for being able to take advantage of it :p

Keeps the crap out of your face when you are shooting left handed suppressed.


Accuracy will not improve with a gas piston. However, most shooters don't shoot at a level or use ammunition capable of shooting what their gun can. We're talking about 1MOA turning into 1.5MOA, nothing like a shotgun, with match ammo.

Also, 1000rds isn't really a "torture test" ;)


That upper looks sweet! I'd love to get a piston but two questions remain in my mind:

1. Accuracy. Can it successfully and consistently hold 1 MOA? I've seen some reports of other piston uppers' performance resembling a shotgun. Is the Addax upper different?

2. Any signs of carrier tilt? I'm looking forward to someone posting a 1000 rd torture test for this new setup.



I'm a middle-roader on nearly all things. I like them just fine, but I don't think they are worth the money. Some people want new and different because it's just that - and because it's easy to make an argument about the AR that sounds like it needs to be "fixed" (a-la "craps where it eats", etc.)

Are you now an ex-proponent of the gas piston system? Seem to recall a few months back you were talking about all the upsides to owning one.

Guntech
07-21-2008, 7:10 PM
Is there any advantage to owning a 600 HP Exotic Sports Car? What about owning a Hayabusa that will do over 200MPH? What about owning an iPhone? What's the point? Its to have the latest, greatest product. I put 100rds through it yesterday, and I have never shot anything quite like it. It is so smooth, little or no recoil (granted, I have a PWS Brake on it) and it was so addicting to shoot. More addicting than anything else I have ever shot before.

Plus, it's the new mainstream technology for the AR Platform. The impingement system has been around since the 50's.

I'm happy with it. If you don't think the GPU serves a purpose - you don't need to spend your money on it. No need to come into a thread I started showing off my new toy and tell me that there is no advantage to owning a product like this.


Not trying to be an *** or anything but he was just stating his opinion...:confused:

TonyM
07-21-2008, 7:16 PM
I got a gas piston gun this month too, but mine looks like this:

http://www.picturesbytony.com/July/3.jpg

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 7:19 PM
I got a gas piston gun this month too, but mine looks like this:

http://www.picturesbytony.com/July/3.jpg

thats a beautiful SIG556! how does it shoot?

aplinker
07-21-2008, 7:20 PM
Not trying to be an *** or anything but he was just stating his opinion...:confused:

I wouldn't have said anything about it if it weren't for his arguing how great it is.

The boards are for information dissemination. Without the contrary opinion many new shooters would mistakenly think the latest and greatest is the only way to go.

I got a gas piston gun this month too, but mine looks like this:

http://www.picturesbytony.com/July/3.jpg



Sigs shoot nice. I like their feel. Their little dangly substitute for a BUIS makes me chuckle though.... Why even bother, Sig?!

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 7:35 PM
uclaplinker - say what you want about my new rifle, but I have never said anything derogatory about any of your rifles. I got a new toy, I'm excited about, impressed with the way it shoots. Nobody is forcing you to spend your money on a GPU, so why so negative on it? Enjoy your rifles, I'll enjoy mine, But don't be critical about how others enjoy spending their money, on whatever they choose to purchase. Its a fine product, just ask anyone who was at Angeles Range yesterday shooting them. I feel it is money well spent - as I'm sure others will who purchase these Addax GPU's. I challenge you to come out to the next Addax meet and try the GPU. I know of a few nay-sayers that were converted yesterday after shooting it. Hopefully I'll see you there and you'll have a different opinion after you put a few rounds downrange.

aplinker
07-21-2008, 7:41 PM
I'm glad you're enjoying your rifle and it looks nice.

I've shot the PWS piston system.

Their comp is very nice.

uclaplinker - say what you want about my new rifle, but I have never said anything derogatory about any of your rifles. I got a new toy, I'm excited about, impressed with the way it shoots. Nobody is forcing you to spend your money on a GPU, so why so negative on it? Enjoy your rifles, I'll enjoy mine, But don't be critical about how others enjoy spending their money, on whatever they choose to purchase. Its a fine product, just ask anyone who was at Angeles Range yesterday shooting them. I feel it is money well spent - as I'm sure others will who purchase these Addax GPU's. I challenge you to come out to the next Addax meet and try the GPU. I know of a few nay-sayers that were converted yesterday after shooting it. Hopefully I'll see you there and you'll have a different opinion after you put a few rounds downrange.

Guntech
07-21-2008, 7:43 PM
I wouldn't have said anything about it if it weren't for his arguing how great it is.

The boards are for information dissemination. Without the contrary opinion many new shooters would mistakenly think the latest and greatest is the only way to go.





Sigs shoot nice. I like their feel. Their little dangly substitute for a BUIS makes me chuckle though.... Why even bother, Sig?!


Uh... I meant you were stating your opinion uclaplinker..I was trying to justify what you said...

viras
07-21-2008, 7:50 PM
you guys all need to hug it out :grouphug:

jandmtv
07-21-2008, 8:02 PM
Nice GPU, glad you like it so much. I really like the FSC556, I just cant justify the price tag at the moment. Keep us updated on how the GPU holds up.

norcal-ar
07-21-2008, 8:05 PM
that upper looks sick!!

elSquid
07-21-2008, 8:17 PM
Plus, it's the new mainstream technology for the AR Platform. The impingement system has been around since the 50's.


I finally picked up a copy of Stevens/Ezell's "The Black Rifle" (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rifle-Retrospective-Modern-Military/dp/0889351155/) a little while ago. The Colt 703 seemed pretty interesting.

http://sqidbait.googlepages.com/colt703003.jpg/colt703003-custom;size:840,630.jpg

http://sqidbait.googlepages.com/colt703002.jpg/colt703002-custom;size:840,630.jpg

Circa 1968.

-- Michael

J_Rock
07-21-2008, 8:21 PM
Many people got to shoot multiple Addax GPU's at Angeles yesterday. YES, it is very accurate. Me, my brother and a good friend were hitting the metal plate at 100+ yards with iron sights, consistently, from a standing position. And we are nowhere near good marksmen, but the GPU upper made us look like expert shots. I have NEVER been that accurate before

This is statement VERY subjective. Gas pistons DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT increase the accuracy of your gun.

King I'm sure the gun is great and I;m not knocking it but I cannot tolerate misinformation. You may convince noobies that gas pistons increase accuracy.

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 8:49 PM
This is statement VERY subjective. Gas pistons DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT increase the accuracy of your gun.

King I'm sure the gun is great and I;m not knocking it but I cannot tolerate misinformation. You may convince noobies that gas pistons increase accuracy.

Maybe I made it sound like it was the actual Gas-Piston that was making the rifle shoot accurately. Not what I meant. The upper as a whole uses quality parts, including the barrel. The upper is very accurate

BlackReef
07-21-2008, 8:52 PM
"It's the new mainstream technology for the AR Platform."



I finally picked up a copy of Stevens/Ezell's "The Black Rifle" (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rifle-Retrospective-Modern-Military/dp/0889351155/) a little while ago. The Colt 703 seemed pretty interesting.

http://sqidbait.googlepages.com/colt703003.jpg/colt703003-custom;size:840,630.jpg

http://sqidbait.googlepages.com/colt703002.jpg/colt703002-custom;size:840,630.jpg

Circa 1968.

-- Michael

Addax
07-21-2008, 9:05 PM
There are those who appreciate a system like ours and others that do not.

Kingsnake is very excited and happy and he appreciates what we built him, as are all of our Addax GPU customers.

The Addax GPU provides a viable option for the AR owner that wants a cleaner running and easier to maintain system, while retaining the AR's ergonomics and maintaining the AR's well known accuracy.

I will maintain that our Gas Piston Uppers are accurate, and I do not see a loss of any serious accuracy or people experiencing accuracy issues with our builds, and I know this is due to how we build them and that we use only quality components and quality barrels in our builds.

J_Rock
07-21-2008, 9:27 PM
There are those who appreciate a system like ours and others that do not.

Kingsnake is very excited and happy and he appreciates what we built him, as are all of our Addax GPU customers.

The Addax GPU provides a viable option for the AR owner that wants a cleaner running and easier to maintain system, while retaining the AR's ergonomics and maintaining the AR's well known accuracy.

I will maintain that our Gas Piston Uppers are accurate, and I do not see a loss of any serious accuracy or people experiencing accuracy issues with our builds, and I know this is due to how we build them and that we use only quality components and quality barrels in our builds.

I never said your piston uppers were not accurate. I just said gas pistons dont increase the accuracy over a DI system. I;m sure your uppers a plenty accurate enough for your average user.

BroncoBob
07-21-2008, 9:38 PM
That is one beautiful rifle you have King$nake. Very impressive I must say. Congradulations for such a good build. :Ivan:

Toolbox X
07-21-2008, 9:51 PM
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/Forum%20Pictures/funny-pictures-goats-discuss-spider.jpg

s2000news
07-21-2008, 9:56 PM
Puuurrrrtttyyyy. :)

Love that barrel. It looks great! Nice buy!

dd03
07-21-2008, 10:12 PM
Looks nice.

I just don't think there's any advantage to a gas piston system besides the reduced cleaning.

I spent four years in the Corps cleaning the hell out of my M16. I welcome a system where I don't have to scrub, scrub, and scrub the hell out of it.

But before I put my money into I would like to know the accuracy. So far I heard that POF is about 1/2MOA. What about PWS?

nic
07-21-2008, 10:12 PM
The barrel flutes look kinda snazzy :D

aplinker
07-21-2008, 10:25 PM
I spent four years in the Corps cleaning the hell out of my M16. I welcome a system where I don't have to scrub, scrub, and scrub the hell out of it.

But before I put my money into I would like to know the accuracy. So far I heard that POF is about 1/2MOA. What about PWS?

All internet rifles are sub-MOA.

Shooter, barrel, ammo, trigger - that's what makes a rifle accurate.

Also, a lot of the cleaning you did in the corps was BS and the AR doesn't need to be kept particularly "clean" - just lubed.

You'll still need to clean the chamber/bore. However, if you just hate swabbing out the upper, then yeah, the pistons will definitely reduce receiver fouling.

J_Rock
07-21-2008, 10:37 PM
So far I heard that POF is about 1/2MOA.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I;m gonna have to call BS on that. Even match grade ARs would be very hard pressed to do that consistently unless the ammo is handloaded and specifcally tuned for that rifle.

X-NewYawker
07-21-2008, 10:59 PM
The GPU was designed to solve PROBLEMS the AR series had. They do. The Cleaning issue is not minor, it's about propellent gasses and crap having to blow back into parts of your rifle's action they should NOT be. Poor maintenance is the #1 reason for AR-type failure (yes, yes, all you guys treat your ARs like vestal virgins and they are 100% reliable, I know)

Also, the military is interesting in GPUs, especially SEALS and such, for reliability issues. Folding stocks, and the ability to fire the gun with everything south of the ejection port underwater. Regular ARs just can't do that. If you're a SEAl or SOCOM and you think you may have to empty a mag half submerged, the GPU isn't just "having the latest toy." It's necessary.

And if you don't want to buy one, don't -- but to say it reduces your saintly AR to Shotgun accuracy -- based on what, with the same barrels, sights, ammo?

And as I said shooting the clanky XCR last week, the absence of a giant recoil spring next to my cheek was noted and appreciated.

J_Rock
07-21-2008, 11:20 PM
Let me spell it out for you, overhead gas pistons have advantages and drawbacks. It doesnt FIX anything, merely compromises to get what the end user requires. Sure you get a cleaner receiver but you also start sacrificing shooting performance beginning with round number one because the accuracy and controllability is reduced while complexity and weight is increased with the overhead gas piston.

Thats not to say there are advantages to the overhead gas piston. The only way you will see tangible benefits of the overhead gas piston is if you are
-firing a suppressed weapon
-using your rifle like a light machine gun
-using a very short barreled weapon

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 12:11 AM
Let me spell it out for you, overhead gas pistons have advantages and drawbacks. It doesnt FIX anything, merely compromises to get what the end user requires. Sure you get a cleaner receiver but you also start sacrificing shooting performance beginning with round number one because the accuracy and controllability is reduced while complexity and weight is increased with the overhead gas piston.

Thats not to say there are advantages to the overhead gas piston. The only way you will see tangible benefits of the overhead gas piston is if you are
-firing a suppressed weapon
-using your rifle like a light machine gun
-using a very short barreled weapon

Who are you trying to convince that a GPU isnt what its cracked to be, everyone else or yourself?

you are getting heated up over nothing! If you dont like GPU's, dont buy it. But dont try to convince others that it does nothing good to the AR design.

Any gun/rifle that runs cleaner will be more reliable, thats a fact that was proven when they did the HK416 vs M16 test. The GP fixes the one and only weakness the AR series of rifles have.


So I guess what Im trying to say is, if you dont like it, dont buy it! and dont flame those who do.

Just my .02c

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 12:21 AM
Let me spell it out for you, overhead gas pistons have advantages and drawbacks. It doesnt FIX anything, merely compromises to get what the end user requires. Sure you get a cleaner receiver but you also start sacrificing shooting performance beginning with round number one because the accuracy and controllability is reduced while complexity and weight is increased with the overhead gas piston.

Thats not to say there are advantages to the overhead gas piston. The only way you will see tangible benefits of the overhead gas piston is if you are
-firing a suppressed weapon
-using your rifle like a light machine gun
-using a very short barreled weapon

Forgot to address this comment in the previous post.

this comment made me laugh. Are you for real?

lets see here,

standard Carbine length uppers have all kinds of problems including extraction issues. the GP system solves this problem.

Carbon fouling in the action from the DI system will gum up or dry up the lube in a AR15/M16 and cause it to malfunction, this is also fixed by the GP system.

see where im going with this?

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 12:35 AM
If the overhead gas pistons FIXES carbon in the receiver then DI FIXES the issue of having moving parts above the bore line. see where im going with this? What I want people to understand is an overhead gas piston system is a compromise. The direct impingement system is a compromise. You are sacrificing one thing to get another. Or did you think that having an overhead gas piston system is a free lunch?

This does not mean that I think that there's no place for overhead piston guns. I think they are fine. If a person likes some aspects of the overhead piston guns, and it makes them happy, and they clean less, and enjoy the gun, then there's no reason on Earth that they shouldn't buy one and have fun with it.
My intent is not to throw a wet blanket on everybody's fun.
My intent is to clarify the muddy waters that have resulted from oceans of hype that have been thrown around on the internet and media, in order to help people see thru it, and understand that there's more to it than they're being shown, in most cases.

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 12:45 AM
I understand what you are saying. But you need to understand that the GP systems benefits outweigh the downside of overhead moving parts 10 to 1.

That is why I find your argument pointless. No offence, this is just my opinion.

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 12:53 AM
I understand what you are saying. But you need to understand that the GP systems benefits outweigh the downside of overhead moving parts 10 to 1.

That is why I find your argument pointless. No offence, this is just my opinion.

I dont think you are getting it. The point is you are sacrificing alot just to have less carbon and your lube burned off in the receiver. Your argument would go better if you stated the advantages of the overhead gas piston vs DI

BlackReef
07-22-2008, 12:54 AM
My intent is to clarify the muddy waters that have resulted from oceans of hype that have been thrown around on the internet and media, in order to help people see thru it, and understand that there's more to it than they're being shown, in most cases.

Why didn't you create a new thread to do this? Why did you wait until someone started a thread and show off their new rifle and completely ruin the thread? I was pretty damn excited to post this rifle up on here. It's not everyday I get to buy a new AR-15, especially a Gas-Piston setup, and all you could is mumble about a "useless system" (Gov't tests show otherwise) and steer this thread completely off-topic. Thanks Bro!

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 12:59 AM
I dont think you are getting it. The point is you are sacrificing alot just to have less carbon and your lube burned off in the receiver. Your argument would go better if you stated the advantages of the overhead gas piston vs DI

hmmmm. maybe you just type without reading, i dont know.

I thought i pointed out the advantage of having a GP over DI when i posted this

Forgot to address this comment in the previous post.

this comment made me laugh. Are you for real?

lets see here,

standard Carbine length uppers have all kinds of problems including extraction issues. the GP system solves this problem.

Carbon fouling in the action from the DI system will gum up or dry up the lube in a AR15/M16 and cause it to malfunction, this is also fixed by the GP system.

see where im going with this?


and thats just a part of them problems the GP fixes in a carbine.

and yet, you have failed to point out the down side of having a overhead piston, besides more moving parts!

Please tell us what you are sacrificing with a GP over a DI.

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 1:09 AM
hmmmm. maybe you just type without reading, i dont know.

I thought i pointed out the advantage of having a GP over DI when i posted this




and thats just a part of them problems the GP fixes in a carbine.

and yet, you have failed to point out the down side of having a overhead piston, besides more moving parts!

The extraction issues of the carbine gas system is not the direct result of the DI system. Its the fact that they moved away from the original design parameters of the stoner system. Essentially they chopped the original gun down without adequately addressing the problems the design change would have.

Sure the overhead piston is cleaner but its not like the DI system cant handle being dirty. As long as you lube the weapon you can go thousands of rounds without cleaning before the gunk starts affecting the action. I mean think about it, if someone has enough time to fire thousands of rounds(considering doing this continuously would burst your barrel) that they dont have time to put a few spurts of lube in bolt?

Once you have a overhead piston system you lose the inline operating forces of the DI system. You get decreased accuracy, more muzzle rise meaning less controllability. This decreases the recovery time from shot to shot slowing the amount of time needed engage target after target. Also you increase complexity meaning more things can break, and yes piston rods can break. More parts = more weight.

To summarize you are sacrificing accuracy, controllability, simplicity and less weight for less carbon in the receiver.

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 1:11 AM
Why didn't you create a new thread to do this? Why did you wait until someone started a thread and show off their new rifle and completely ruin the thread? I was pretty damn excited to post this rifle up on here. It's not everyday I get to buy a new AR-15, especially a Gas-Piston setup, and all you could is mumble about a "useless system" (Gov't tests show otherwise) and steer this thread completely off-topic. Thanks Bro!

where did I say useless system? if you notice my other posts I clearly state that overhead gas pistons have their uses and I list them

Mr. Joshua
07-22-2008, 1:13 AM
Addax-

Is this a gas piston design that you came up with, completely different than what else is out there? Or is it another company's conversion that you're selling?

Not thread bashing, just curious.

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 1:14 AM
Its the PWS gas piston system which is IMO one of better piston conversion kits out there.

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 1:16 AM
The extraction issues of the carbine gas system is not the direct result of the DI system. Its the fact that they moved away from the original design parameters of the stoner system. Essentially they chopped the original gun down without adequately addressing the problems the design change would have.

Sure the overhead piston is cleaner but its not like the DI system cant handle being dirty. As long as you lube the weapon you can go thousands of rounds without cleaning before the gunk starts affecting the action. I mean think about it, if someone has enough time to fire thousands of rounds(considering doing this continuously would burst your barrel) that they dint have time to put a few spurts of lube in bolt?

Once you have a overhead piston system you lose the inline operating forces of the DI system. You get decreased accuracy, more muzzle rise meaning less controllability. This increases the recovery time from shot to shot slowing the amount of time needed engage target after target. Also you increase complexity meaning more things can break, and yes piston rods can break. More parts = more weight.

To summarize you are sacrificing accuracy, controllability, simplicity and less weight for less carbon in the receiver.

I would sacrifice all of those for more reliability!

I run MedCon barrels on my AR's so i dint think a GP will reduce the accuracy of my AR, I just wish I could afford a GP upgrade to prove most of what you said above wrong.

I dont see how you sacrifice simplicity? I think the GP design is a lot more simple than the DI.

as for loosing controllability, I call total BS on that one.

I am available any time to go to the range with you so you can prove me wrong on any of these things. EDIT: just noticed you are up north.

You do have a GP upper, and you were talking from experience when you were listing all the things you sacrifice with the GP right?

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 1:22 AM
I would sacrifice all of those for more reliability!

I run MedCon barrels on my AR's so i dint think a GP will reduce the accuracy of my AR, I just wish I could afford a GP upgrade to prove most of what you said above wrong.

I dont see how you sacrifice simplicity? I think the GP design is a lot more simple than the DI.

as for loosing controllability, I call total BS on that one.

I am available any time to go to the range with you so you can prove me wrong on any of these things. EDIT: just noticed you are up north.

You do have a GP upper, and you were talking from experience when you were listing all the things you sacrifice with the GP right?

Think about it, what happens when the op-rod strikes the carrier key at the top of the bolt carrier and how those forces act on the rest of the gun. As for simplicity I dont think that can really be argued, all you need to do is strip both down and count the parts. As for accuracy once you induce moving forces around the barrel you start to interfere with the barrel harmonics. Why do you think competition shooters go to great lengths to free float the barrel?

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 1:27 AM
The force of the strike will not be greater than the recoil so.......think about it.

jandmtv
07-22-2008, 1:28 AM
I've said all I need to on this subject. Im off to bed.

Addax
07-22-2008, 1:29 AM
Addax-

Is this a gas piston design that you came up with, completely different than what else is out there? Or is it another company's conversion that you're selling?

Not thread bashing, just curious.

Thanks for asking.

We are partnered with Primary Weapons Systems and we have been working with them on developing our Addax GPU for approx. 6 months utilizing their Gas Piston System Design.

They have been fantastic to work with, and we have also provided some input into design improvements that were a result from field testing over the past 6 months, and some of our design improvement input has helped them with design improvements.

We have also worked with PWS on testing out different types of barrel designs with our uppers.

PWS manufacturers the Gas Piston Systems for us, and our next batch of Gas Piston Systems will also have our logo engraved on them.

doughboy334
07-22-2008, 1:33 AM
you cannot use a standard AR-15 fixed F sight blade to run a PWS, can you?

ricknadine1111
07-22-2008, 1:40 AM
M14 in space cloths.:willy_nilly:

Addax
07-22-2008, 1:40 AM
Your description fits that of a POF Gas Piston System, not the Addax GPU.

The Addax GPU utilizes PWS's Gas Piston System. We have only 2 moving parts, the piston and the BCG that utilizes a fixed Op-Rod design much like the SIG556 or the AK.

We have a fixed op rod and a small diameter piston that only travels 3/4".

Our system minimizes bolt tilt and deflection, and the smaller piston design helps to minimize piston push on the barrel.

Piston Push is also further minimized by the use of higher quality barrels of medium contour and weight that we use on our builds.

POF's have much of the problems you described, thus that is why they are also much bulkier and heavier.

They needed to install a heavier barrel nut / heat sink and a taller rail to incorporate these parts to help minimize their uppers from excessive piston push. They are pushing a larger diameter piston vs. our system.




Think about it, what happens when the op-rod strikes the carrier key at the top of the bolt carrier and how those forces act on the rest of the gun. As for simplicity I dont think that can really be argued, all you need to do is strip both down and count the parts. As for accuracy once you induce moving forces around the barrel you start to interfere with the barrel harmonics. Why do you think competition shooters go to great lengths to free float the barrel?

Addax
07-22-2008, 1:42 AM
No, the PWS design utilizes a specially engineered gas block, piston and piston tube.

you cannot use a standard AR-15 fixed F sight blade to run a PWS, can you?

Addax
07-22-2008, 1:43 AM
That is the best quote!

Mind if I use it?

M14 in space cloths.:willy_nilly:

J_Rock
07-22-2008, 1:46 AM
Your description fits that of a POF Gas Piston System, not the Addax GPU.

The Addax GPU utilizes PWS's Gas Piston System. We have only 2 moving parts, the piston and the BCG that utilizes a fixed Op-Rod design much like the SIG556 or the AK.

We have a fixed op rod and a small diameter piston that only travels 3/4".

Our system minimizes bolt tilt and deflection, and the smaller piston design helps to minimize piston push on the barrel.

Piston Push is also further minimized by the use of higher quality barrels of medium contour and weight that we use on our builds.

POF's have much of the problems you described, thus that is why they are also much bulkier and heavier.

They needed to install a heavier barrel nut / heat sink and a taller rail to incorporate these parts to help minimize their uppers from excessive piston push. They are pushing a larger diameter piston vs. our system.

Thats why I said this. ;)
Its the PWS gas piston system which is IMO one of better piston conversion kits out there.

I talking about piston systems in general BTW. Some seem to better at fixing carrier tilt issues than others

Addax
07-22-2008, 2:17 AM
That is my marketing hype for tonight..;)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9358-1.jpg

Osprey
07-22-2008, 7:23 AM
Beautiful pics, King$nake. I thought that I'd found a BRD cure called "M14" but you're making me reconsider :43:

ricknadine1111
07-22-2008, 7:40 AM
That is the best quote!

Mind if I use it?

No, go ahead.;)

Addax
07-22-2008, 4:18 PM
:D My new GPU Gas Block arrived today..

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/06739f7c.jpg

Richy
07-22-2008, 4:27 PM
very cool, who makes the barrel?

trinydex
07-22-2008, 5:30 PM
I got a gas piston gun this month too, but mine looks like this:

http://www.picturesbytony.com/July/3.jpg

put some prvi partisan match through it. you'll smile for sure!

ChrisXD45T
07-22-2008, 5:38 PM
Any word on price and availability?

trinydex
07-22-2008, 5:49 PM
Once you have a overhead piston system you lose the inline operating forces of the DI system.

so i've been thinking about this inline forces thing. apparently it is the case that having a piston held in place by a spring can deflect the barrel with some "newton's second law" stuff going on. or at least that's always the way it's explained.

i'd like someone to give me a more in depth physics lesson on this... mainly because i don't see how you can push the bolt back using the gases in the gas tube and not exert any bordon tube like forces on the tube or consequently the barrel.

it is this factor that is cited as making the ar accurate right? the bcg going back inline makes the reciprocating mass more manageable. the additional mass of a piston and or the barrel deflections created are what make the gpu system slightly less accurate...

the question is why isn't the di system inaccurate for the same reason? why isn't the barrel deflected also in a bordon tube like force?

xcrunner805
07-22-2008, 10:49 PM
this gun dominates...badass build !

BHPFan
07-24-2008, 2:35 PM
King$nake,

Congrats on your Addax GPU.

That's one thing I'm planning to buy sometime later in the year.

To those who think that GP is not necessary in an AR, that's fine. It's your prerrogative.

In that same case, it's also my prerrogative (and those who like GP systems)to buy a GP system.

A DI more accurate and less recoil than GP system? Well, let's test them out.
A GP more reliable than DI? Let's test them out.
A GP is cleaner than DI? Let's test them out.

Mr. Joshua
08-02-2008, 5:12 AM
Addax-

Is it me or does the top rail of the gas block seem to sit lower than the top of the upper receiver rail does? Any issues with needing a taller front sight? Is it ok to install a front sight on top of the gas block?

I'm very interested in this system, just want to get all of the q's out of the way before I drop some $$$ on it.

ChrisXD45T
08-02-2008, 3:05 PM
Addax-

Is it me or does the top rail of the gas block seem to sit lower than the top of the upper receiver rail does? Any issues with needing a taller front sight? Is it ok to install a front sight on top of the gas block?

I'm very interested in this system, just want to get all of the q's out of the way before I drop some $$$ on it.
There are front sights that are made specifically for gas blocks; pay close attention when buying a front sight to be sure you have what you need.

aplinker
08-02-2008, 9:15 PM
There are front sights that are made specifically for gas blocks; pay close attention when buying a front sight to be sure you have what you need.

<nods> front sights are sold either as "rail" or "gas block" height.

mikecro1
08-02-2008, 9:47 PM
direct from PWS' mouth: The gas block on the pws system is the same height as the m4 flat top...

a pic of one of my PWS rifles...this is my newest PWS-KISS build...or at least as "kiss" as I can get
10/30 pmag and Bullet button friendly!!!
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/urban_jedi/IMG_0807.jpg

swerv512
09-06-2009, 10:35 AM
ADDAX = :King: