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View Full Version : Stag Arms 2HT upper problem: UPDATED


Heiko
07-21-2008, 8:23 AM
Hello! I'm a brand new member here. I'm a long time CA gun owner but never knew about this forum until I started researching an AR build. I'm lucky to have beaten the AW ban but it was time for another AR so I'm embarking upon my first AR build. This place is a great resource and it's nice to have a site specifically for us here in the worst gun law state in the country.

Here is my problem:

I just bought a Stag 2HT upper assembly from CWS. It is actually the second one. I bought one and after getting it home, noticed that the barrel or front sight was canted to the right. I also noticed that the included Samson handguard was a little lower than the rail on the top of the receiver. I returned that example and got a replacement. All looked okay in the store but I was pressed for time so I had to leave. They were very nice and I want to avoid having to return the thing. The store happens to be an hour each way drive away from home too.

This second 2HT had the same issue with the Samson rail being lower than the rail on the receiver. The result is pictured below. The rails do not sit flush. The first picture shows it pretty clearly. The second picture shows the gap under a straight edge. The problem that causes is that my EOTech will not mount properly. I would like, and should be able to mount it so that the front sits at or just over where the delta ring would be. The height difference with the rails prevents that from being possible. The EOTech rails do not sit properly due to the height difference. I can mount it all the way on the handguard but I do not like that position. I cannot mount it all the way to the rear because the ARMS BUIS doesn't give enough room for the EOTech to be locked in the rail. If the EOTech is all the way forward, it cannot slide back farther than where the receiver begins. It butts up against the height difference. Likewise for aft to front. The slight difference in height is too much for the tolerance of the EOTech.

Bottom line is that I am really unhappy and frustrated. I was really expecting more from Stag after reading so many good things about their products. What's the use of having a continuous rail if I can't mount my optic of choice in the position I want? Is this typical of Stag? Has anyone else seen this? I have now seen it on two 2HT's. Is there a simple fix for this? If I can't get this squared away, I'm returning it and starting over.

Any help is appreciated.

tenpercentfirearms
07-21-2008, 9:35 AM
I really don't see much of a difference.

You appear to be the anal type of customer (no flame intended and I completely respect your position). I would step it up if I were you to something else. I personally like LMT MRPs and then you wouldn't have that issue. I was never really that impressed with the Stag 2HT. I sell them and guys seem to like them, but I am not a huge fan of that rail. It just doesn't seem right to me.

You can also try buying your own upper and getting Daniel Defense rails for it. Those are the only type of high end rails I have handled, so I know there are other good ones out there. If I was going to spend my money on something nice, Daniel Defense would work for me.

It just sounds like you are the type of customer who demands exact and precise products, so you really ought to spend the money on something more. If that is the way the rail is on two units, the I suspect it isn't a problem, but the way it was designed. A customer with less exacting standards wouldn't probably mind it and shoot it just fine. CWS should have plenty of other higher end goodies for you to trade out with, so you will be happy.

Again no flame intended and I say you are anal with respect. Your type of customer exists and that is why a retail location like mine or CWS in Highland is where you should do your business instead of mail order. That way you can come in and spend a bunch of time looking at the difference in products and choosing exactly what you need, want, and expect then walk out the door with it.

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 9:57 AM
You can't bridge the gap with optical sights.
The continous top rail is just for looks or to mount a flip-up front sight.
Get a shorter eotech.

sb_pete
07-21-2008, 10:39 AM
You can't bridge the gap with optical sights...
Get a shorter eotech.
+1. Bridging that gap is a recipe for a wandering zero anyways. You need either a smaller Eotech or something like this (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=149767) (or cheaper here (http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=UR-ER)).

Heiko
07-21-2008, 11:33 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. Yes, I am a little conscientious about these things and I can accept that I'm not spending top dollar for top quality but this little thing just struck me as a major design/build flaw. I can live with certain things considering the relatively low price but something that causes a decrease in functionality is unacceptable. Stag ought to have anticipated a situation like this. The height difference might seem almost imperceptible but it's there and is the root of the problem.

I will have to make another drive out to CWS and start over. They're going to think I'm nuts. My first preference is to keep it if it worked and save myself the hassle of driving a couple of hours. Do you think that they would consider allowing me to swap out a DD 7.0 tube and pay any difference? Perhaps that rail will line up better. Either that I get a Stag without the Samson and sub in a DD rail handguard.

Thanks again guys!

domokun
07-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. Yes, I am a little conscientious about these things and I can accept that I'm not spending top dollar for top quality but this little thing just struck me as a major design/build flaw. I can live with certain things considering the relatively low price but something that causes a decrease in functionality is unacceptable. Stag ought to have anticipated a situation like this. The height difference might seem almost imperceptible but it's there and is the root of the problem.

I will have to make another drive out to CWS and start over. They're going to think I'm nuts. My first preference is to keep it if it worked and save myself the hassle of driving a couple of hours. Do you think that they would consider allowing me to swap out a DD 7.0 tube and pay any difference? Perhaps that rail will line up better. Either that I get a Stag without the Samson and sub in a DD rail handguard.

Thanks again guys!

Bring your EOTech and the mount(s) for it with you to the store so you can test mount it on the uppers they have in stock to find one that works for you.

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 11:56 AM
this little thing just struck me as a major design/build flaw. I can live with certain things considering the relatively low price but something that causes a decrease in functionality is unacceptable. Stag ought to have anticipated a situation like this. The height difference might seem almost imperceptible but it's there and is the root of the problem.

You still have not accepted that you are not supposed to bridge the optic on to the handguard.
Once you accept that, you will realize that the step you see does not matter in reality.

This is much like complaining that your Corvette ZR-1 gets stuck in the mud.
Guess what, it does not have mud tires so it's no suprise that it gets stuck in the mud...

Heiko
07-21-2008, 12:01 PM
Bring your EOTech and the mount(s) for it with you to the store so you can test mount it on the uppers they have in stock to find one that works for you.

That is what I will have to do.

You still have not accepted that you are not supposed to bridge the optic on to the handguard.
Once you accept that, you will realize that the step you see does not matter in reality.

This is much like complaining that your Corvette ZR-1 gets stuck in the mud.
Guess what, it does not have mud tires so it's no suprise that it gets stuck in the mud...

I get it. I'm just bummed that my EOTech doesn't fit. I already had it so I can't switch directions on that. The only way it will fit is if I mount it all the way to the rear and that would mean removing the ARMS BUIS, or all the way to the front where I don't really like it. (I know, I sound like Goldilocks and her damn porridge being too hot or cold.)

It's a learning process and I'm learning the hard way.

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 12:03 PM
I get it. I'm just bummed that my EOTech doesn't fit. I already had it so I can't switch directions on that. The only way it will fit is if I mount it all the way to the rear and that would mean removing the ARMS BUIS, or all the way to the front where I don't really like it. (I know, I sound like Goldilocks and her damn porridge being too hot or cold.)

It's a learning process and I'm learning the hard way.

Have no fear.
There is still an easy solution...

Look into YHM, GG&G or PRI scout mounts.
They will clamp only to the receiver and they will raise the Eotech about 1/2" or so.
They reach forward of the receiver a few inches.
This will also make it so that your irons sit lower in the eotech's window, giving you a less obstructed view through the eotech.

http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/media/YHM-220_big.jpg

jandmtv
07-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Another happy customer for Stag, LOL

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 12:23 PM
Another happy customer for Stag, LOL

Actually, he's mad that his Samson rail is out of spec.
If any other rail were put on there, they would probably align better.

jandmtv
07-21-2008, 12:25 PM
I was talking about the front sight being canted. As for the rail, its DD or nothing!

Addax
07-21-2008, 1:02 PM
Exactly what Randall said!

Keep your optics mounted to the upper receiver, that is the most solid part of your upper receiver.

Do not mount it on the bridge (between the upper and the free float rail).

This is a flex point when you shoot, and you will not be able to maintain proper zero.


You still have not accepted that you are not supposed to bridge the optic on to the handguard.
Once you accept that, you will realize that the step you see does not matter in reality.

This is much like complaining that your Corvette ZR-1 gets stuck in the mud.
Guess what, it does not have mud tires so it's no suprise that it gets stuck in the mud...

Addax
07-21-2008, 1:05 PM
DD is the way to go with rails, I have yet to have one misalign like the Samson one pictured on the Stag.

I was talking about the front sight being canted. As for the rail, its DD or nothing!

Heiko
07-21-2008, 2:01 PM
Thanks again to everyone. You all know what it's like to get a new toy and be all giddy and then have a let down. It sucks.

Thanks Randall for the recommendation. I will go that route if all else fails. My other option is to see if CWS might give me credit for the Samson towards a DD. Somehow I think they won't do that. In that case I'll either get something with regular M4 handguards and buy a DD seperately.

As another option, would you recommend Del-Ton or steer clear of their uppers?

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 2:29 PM
I think the better solution is a riser.
That ultimately gives you a better field of view.

shark92651
07-21-2008, 2:30 PM
Heiko,

That Sampson rail is made for the Stag and would probably have no use to CWS on it's own. FWIW, I just checked a Stag 2HT I have in my display case and I put an EOTech 512 on it and it fits fine on the flat-top upper with the ARMS #40L on it. I'm not sure why you say there is no room to fit it. You do not have to allow a gap between the #40L and the EOTech in order to still be able to reach the buttons, unless your fingers are a lot thicker then mine.

tenpercentfirearms
07-21-2008, 2:57 PM
I too am trying to figure out what the EOTech doesn't just fit over the rear of the rail. It looked to me like that rail was lower than the upper. Was I wrong?

I just looked at it again. Is there something about that heighth difference that keeps the EOTech from clamping down? I will have to take a look at a couple of my 2HTs when I get into the shop tomorrow.

Heiko
07-21-2008, 3:00 PM
Heiko,

That Sampson rail is made for the Stag and would probably have no use to CWS on it's own. FWIW, I just checked a Stag 2HT I have in my display case and I put an EOTech 512 on it and it fits fine on the flat-top upper with the ARMS #40L on it. I'm not sure why you say there is no room to fit it. You do not have to allow a gap between the #40L and the EOTech in order to still be able to reach the buttons, unless your fingers are a lot thicker then mine.

Thanks for checking that for me. My ARMS 40L is mounted as far back as possible. The rounded end matches up with the rounded part of the receiver where the charging handle is. My EOTech 512 will fit but I cannot get the bolt through. It is not lined up with a rail slot. Moving up a bit is not possible because the EOTech hits the jacked up rail of the Samson. Moving back is not possible because the ARMS gets in the way and the EOTech is butted right against it. Does your displace 2HT have a height difference as illustrated in my first post?

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 3:10 PM
I too am trying to figure out what the EOTech doesn't just fit over the rear of the rail. It looked to me like that rail was lower than the upper.

The extrusion used for the eotech base runs the full length of the eotech, but the clamp area is only a small pad on one side.
What happens is that extrusion needs to fit UNDER the rail.
The handguard being lower does not allow the eotech to fit under it because it's hanging forward from the receiver.

http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/product/512.jpg

The new Eotech 557 solves for this.
Note how the front part of the base is relieved?

http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/product/557.jpg

Also note that the control buttons are moved to the side so that a BUIS can be placed right against it.

Heiko
07-21-2008, 3:10 PM
Here is part of the problem. With the EOTech located as illustrated in the first attachment here, the front of the EOTech bumps up against the leading edge of the Samson rail as illustrated in the next two attached pics. If I try to slide the EOTech forward even a couple of millimeters, it hits the Samson rail because it's lower.

Where the EOTech is shown cannot be clamped down because the bolt isn't near a rail "T" slot to slide through. The EOTech sits flat and would be clamped down properly if a slot was clear for the bolt to go through.

EDIT: What Randall said. ;)

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 3:16 PM
This problem was specifically addressed by the creation of N-battery models.

ironcross
07-21-2008, 4:31 PM
I just got done looking at mine and mine is not that bad...

I got a 2mm gap, but it seems 99% level.

Heres the picture.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f353/ironcross420/Sootin/Guns/Rifles/Marks%20CA%20Legal%20%20AR-15/Stag2HTRail.png

Im thinking just to buy a riser with an Eotech... Safe than sorry.

I know how you feel when you buy new toys and there some times a down side...

Had to learn that the hard way with a gas pwr RC truck, my tranny (Steel 2 speed) would always blow and @ $80 a pop...

I would think you should call Stag Arms and see if they can get you another rail or something... Yes I know DD is the way to go, But right now I and others got to make the best with what we got.

PIRATE14
07-21-2008, 5:02 PM
Just bring it back.....we might be able to tweak it and make it better....or we'll send'em off to STAG for a RW....

That style of Railed Forend isn't always spot on w/ the upper.....doesn't matter who made it......we usually have enough stock on our installs to find some that match very closely.....

If you want one that's true and flat.....LMT MRP or VLTOR VIS....

Oh, and bring all of your stuff......so we can see what's up....

Heiko
07-21-2008, 6:03 PM
I just got done looking at mine and mine is not that bad...

I got a 2mm gap, but it seems 99% level.

Heres the picture.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f353/ironcross420/Sootin/Guns/Rifles/Marks%20CA%20Legal%20%20AR-15/Stag2HTRail.png

Im thinking just to buy a riser with an Eotech... Safe than sorry.

I know how you feel when you buy new toys and there some times a down side...

Had to learn that the hard way with a gas pwr RC truck, my tranny (Steel 2 speed) would always blow and @ $80 a pop...

I would think you should call Stag Arms and see if they can get you another rail or something... Yes I know DD is the way to go, But right now I and others got to make the best with what we got.

From what I can see in your pic, you'll have the same problem I have. Either you get a newer N EOTech as Randall suggested or the YHM riser is only about $35. I will consider that option.

I plan on going back to CWS and working it out with them. I'll let you know how it is resolved.

Heiko
07-21-2008, 6:06 PM
Just bring it back.....we might be able to tweak it and make it better....or we'll send'em off to STAG for a RW....

That style of Railed Forend isn't always spot on w/ the upper.....doesn't matter who made it......we usually have enough stock on our installs to find some that match very closely.....

If you want one that's true and flat.....LMT MRP or VLTOR VIS....

Oh, and bring all of your stuff......so we can see what's up....

Thanks for the support! I'll be back but not for a couple of weeks if that's okay. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow and won't be able to get out to Highland for a little while. I do have my receipt and maybe Bethany will remember me. A younger guy there (Hector Jr.?) might also remember me.

You guys were great and I just wish I lived closer to your shop.

sardaukar
07-21-2008, 6:14 PM
What you need is a riser that will allow your Eotech to clear the handguard:

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/sdrkrelt/ar-15/IMG_5070b.jpg

ETA: Ar15barrels beat me to it.

Stanze
07-21-2008, 6:17 PM
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7907/0529081017avg5.jpg

I have a EoTech 512, Stag 2HT upper and YHM riser (Thanks Jicko!).

It's mounted on the receiver as forward as possible to make room for my clone magnifier, mount and BUIS (ARMS 40L). The riser keeps the zero on the EoTech, keeps it forward in "bridge" area without any problems and co-witness'es the BUIS to my liking (need to remove the mag for close up shooting).

The YHM is a new and improved model for a good price.

LaRue also makes a nice riser, but you're gonna pay a premium.

If you prefer to mount the EoTech on the "bridge" area without a riser, I don't think you'll ever be happy. I tried it to experiment, my zero was way off, I mounted it back on the riser and was back in business, zero right were I left it.

Heiko
07-21-2008, 6:21 PM
You guys are all great. I'm so glad I found this forum. I moderate a BMW forum with over 27,000 members so I can appreciate your patience when a noob like me posts.

THANK YOU!

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 7:49 PM
It's mounted on the receiver as forward as possible to make room for my clone magnifier, mount and BUIS (ARMS 40L). The riser keeps the zero on the EoTech, keeps it forward in "bridge" area without any problems and co-witness'es the BUIS to my liking

So the riser is only mounted to the receiver and just cantilevers out over the handguard right?

aplinker
07-21-2008, 7:58 PM
If you prefer to mount the EoTech on the "bridge" area without a riser, I don't think you'll ever be happy. I tried it to experiment, my zero was way off, I mounted it back on the riser and was back in business, zero right were I left it.

I don't understand what this means. If you mounted the EOTech on a different base, of course it will have a different zero. The issue Randall is referring to is flex causing zero to change.

Personally, an EOTech is the one optic I wouldn't care about bridging the receiver/handguard gap with.

Addax
07-21-2008, 8:15 PM
Stag 2HT I took out of stock

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9503-1.jpg

Close up of the Upper and Rail, you can see a slight drop with the rail

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9502.jpg

M4 Riser Mount that mounts to the upper receiver, even though a very small area over laps on top of the railed forend. (The splotches are from some oil I used so nothing gets marred since this is all new products).

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9497.jpg

Close up of where the riser mount overlaps over to the rail, but the riser is firmly mounted to the upper.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9501.jpg

The other side.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/addax/IMG_9499.jpg

Addax
07-21-2008, 8:22 PM
Guys,

Do you think that the small part of the M4 Riser Mount (I pictured) that sits on top of the railed forend will affect anything during shooting, since this is a flex point, even if it is bolted down on the Upper receiver?

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 8:23 PM
The riser pictured above is too long to be used with that sight if it's in contact with the Samson rail in any way.
That riser was probably designed to be run with standard or M4 handguards where the extra section hanging over the delta ring would not matter.
If that riser contacts the samson rail, I would mill out that area of the riser to eliminate that contact.

Flat Broke
07-21-2008, 8:26 PM
Randal or one of the other smiths, could the OP use some brass shim stock between the upper half of the rail and the barrel nut? This might allow him to raise the top half of the rail to even with the receiver. The only downside might be a small gap (same thickness as whatever shim stock is used) where the rail bolts together. If there is any kind of overlap between the top and bottom halves of the rail, it might not matter. I realize he shouldn't be bridging the gap in the first place, but would it work if he chose to pursue that route?

Just an idea,
Chris

ar15barrels
07-21-2008, 8:45 PM
Randal or one of the other smiths, could the OP use some brass shim stock between the upper half of the rail and the barrel nut? This might allow him to raise the top half of the rail to even with the receiver. The only downside might be a small gap (same thickness as whatever shim stock is used) where the rail bolts together. If there is any kind of overlap between the top and bottom halves of the rail, it might not matter.

I thought about that as a possible solution, but it creates a new problem.
The bottom rail won't be able to be installed correctly once the top rail has been shimmed upwards.

Flat Broke
07-21-2008, 9:25 PM
Damn circles having to be perfect elipses and all ;)

Chris

Stanze
07-21-2008, 10:24 PM
So the riser is only mounted to the receiver and just cantilevers out over the handguard right?

Yep.

aplinker
07-21-2008, 10:28 PM
Yep.

not quite... it does contact the rail, but it doesn't "squeeze" it. You can see the forward 1/2 mount to the left in this pic:
http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/media/YHM-220_big.jpg

Stanze
07-21-2008, 10:35 PM
I don't understand what this means. If you mounted the EOTech on a different base, of course it will have a different zero. The issue Randall is referring to is flex causing zero to change.

Personally, an EOTech is the one optic I wouldn't care about bridging the receiver/handguard gap with.

I guess what I was trying to say was that the Stag 2HT upper has a monolithic appearance, but even though it looks like it would work (assuming your ff rail has no issues), you can't just zero the EoTech on the receiver then move it on to the railed fore end area without loosing zero.

doughboy334
07-21-2008, 10:36 PM
will i have this problem with a daniel defense omega 7.0 rail and still require a riser?

sardaukar
07-23-2008, 4:32 PM
will i have this problem with a daniel defense omega 7.0 rail and still require a riser?

As far as I know, a riser is still required. Unless the rail is truly monolithic (ie. LMT MRP), you will not be able to attach an optic partially to the upper and the rail.

Stanze
07-23-2008, 4:48 PM
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7907/0529081017avg5.jpg

My setup rocks! Since my magnifier sits so low(not really a big deal when looking through it, the EoTech reticle is in the center), I discovered yesterday when I cant my rifle to the left I can use the EoTech reticle without magnification with both eyes open. Hold it straight and I'm back on 3X.:cool:

Heiko
08-11-2008, 9:30 PM
Here's the latest on my 2HT upper. Hector from CWS offered to work it out with me and maybe get a better alignment from some other Samson handguards. I haven't been able to get out to Highland but thanks to UPS, parts can come to me for a possible solution. :) I couldn't help myself.

I ordered a Yankee Hill Machine EOTech riser as suggested in this thread. A note on that part: There seems to be some pictures of an older version that lacks a front claw and only has a slot to fit in a T-slot. The one I got is what I assume is the newer version with one claw on the left side. The part is solidly made and just functional. It is reasonably priced too.

Here are some pictures of it on my Stag 2HT with my EOTech 512. The YHM EOTech riser has solved my problem. (Compare to previously posted pictures.) It is solidly mounted via one screw on the rear claws where one side locks in while the other is fixed. The front is held steady by a single claw on the left side. The EOTech slides right on and mounts securely in the one position provided for by the riser. The riser is not on the bridge area so there should be no issues with flex. I can't say for sure how I'll like the higher location of the reticle until I shoot it but from what I can tell now, I like it. The reticle now clears the front sight and sort of sits on top of the front post.

The pictured rifle is not the finished product. I don't have either of the OLL's I ordered (Double Star and Spike's) and being an impatient sort, I installed the new FDE pieces for the new build on to an older lower. (That explains the pistol grip and no BB or Prince50. It's a registered AW lower.) I can't decide if that's where I want my vertical pistol grip but it feels pretty good where I have it. I've got another rail cover to go on once I make my final decision. When I get my OLL's I'll take the FDE bits furniture off and put it on the new lower and my registered AW will be reunited with its former parts.

So what do you think of the YHM riser setup? Other comments welcomed.


http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd280/PNG_x5world/YHMriser.jpg
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd280/PNG_x5world/YHMriser2.jpg
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd280/PNG_x5world/YHMriser3.jpg
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd280/PNG_x5world/YHMriser4.jpg

ar15barrels
08-11-2008, 10:31 PM
I can't say for sure how I'll like the higher location of the reticle until I shoot it but from what I can tell now, I like it.
The reticle now clears the front sight and sort of sits on top of the front post.

That's exactly what it's supposed to do. ;)
That's the biggest reason to buy the riser.

SanSacto
08-11-2008, 10:41 PM
That's it! Not anymore! I have been in the process of putting together my first OLL and I have had a complete Stag lower for a while now. I have been set on matching it with a Stag upper because some stupid need for me to have a matching rifle. Not anymore! After reading these stories there is no way I am going for a Stag upper.....sorry to hear about your Stag problem too.

Heiko
08-11-2008, 11:31 PM
That's it! Not anymore! I have been in the process of putting together my first OLL and I have had a complete Stag lower for a while now. I have been set on matching it with a Stag upper because some stupid need for me to have a matching rifle. Not anymore! After reading these stories there is no way I am going for a Stag upper.....sorry to hear about your Stag problem too.

I don't think you should abandon the idea of a Stag upper. The problem I had to address might be unique to the Samson free float handguard, or maybe just a particular run of them. As Randall suggested, the YHM riser not only cures the problem I had but actually make the EOTech a little more functional.

I still think that for $700, the Stag 2HT is a great complete upper.

SanSacto
08-11-2008, 11:36 PM
I still think that for $700, the Stag 2HT is a great complete upper.

When it comes down to it you are probably right. However, I will feel a lot more comfortable knowing that the upper I am going to get has a better reputation than Stag. Plus I am past the need to have a matching upper and lower. Not that big of a deal to me anymore.

Monticore
09-26-2008, 12:15 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread to pose cowitnessing questions about the Arms 40 BUIS with an Eotech. The upper will be the Stag 2HT, in case it matters.

Paraphrasing what Randall was saying, the ARMS 40 BUIS would match up well with the Eotech 557. No worries about spanning the bridge.

Are all Eotech "crosshairs" set at the same height?
Here's where I'll lead the witness for the answer I am looking for on this one:
I'm pretty sure that I will want an absolute cowitness.
I will most likely leave the ARMS 40 locked down until I need to pop it up.
I like the idea of having the "crosshairs" right on top of the front sight.

Now, if I were to go to a store and slap every Eotech model on there, one at a time, would all of them be centered on top of the front sight?

I would assume that if I added a riser like the OP did, I would have a lower 1/3 cowitness. Is that an accurate statement? Can someone give me their reason for preferring this? Is it field of view?


Let's now assume I have the Stag 2HT with the Eotech 557, and now I want a magnifier. Do I get a riser to mount them both securely to the upper? Do my BUIS become lower 1/3 or useless? If I can get a mount for the magnifier to swing out of the way, do I need another riser to bring up the Eotech even further?

I guess I could have summed this up better by saying:
With a Stag 2 HT and an Eotech 557, what issues in regards to attaining an absolute cowitness might I run into with and without a magnifier?

ar15barrels
09-26-2008, 12:32 PM
Are all Eotech "crosshairs" set at the same height?

You don't fully understand how eotechs and aimpoints work.
The reticle is NOT set at any given height.
It moves around with your eye to stay on target where it's zeroed.
If you raise your eye up, but don't move the gun, the reticle will come up as well.
So, where the reticle will be depends on where you put your eye.
If the irons are zeroed and you can see the front sight through the rear sight and the optic, then the optic will be zeroed on the front sight when you turn it on.
It does not matter if the irons happen to be in the middle or lower 1/3 of the optic sight, as long as everything is zeroed to hit where you aim.
It just makes the most sense to have the optic higher to get the irons out of the way more when you are not using them.
Alternatively, run flip-up front and rear sights and you won't need to raise the optic as much as you just leave the sights down most of the time.

Monticore
09-26-2008, 12:54 PM
I guess I was thinking that the reticle would be centered on the window you are looking through. I've seen an Eotech at a show and liked the way it follows you while still being on target when looking at the lens. In a nose to the charging handle firing position, with no riser, is it absolute cowitness? My thought is that if I'm using the irons anyway, the front sight will be in the way as much as if I had the Eotech on in cowitness.

I guess between absolute and 1/3, it is a preference thing.
I wanted to be sure that if I found a good deal on an Eotech that I could get at least get absolute and get a riser if I changed my mind.

RECCE556
09-26-2008, 12:55 PM
I don't think you should abandon the idea of a Stag upper. The problem I had to address might be unique to the Samson free float handguard, or maybe just a particular run of them. As Randall suggested, the YHM riser not only cures the problem I had but actually make the EOTech a little more functional.

I still think that for $700, the Stag 2HT is a great complete upper.
I don't know about you guys, but for me, it's not about "the deal", it's about getting a QUALITY item. Stag is NOT quality. Stag is mediocre AT BEST. Yes, you'll spend a little more for a better quality product but when it's chugging along nicely years down the line (and many rounds down the line), you'll see that it's worth it. If you're just going to leave it in your safe and show it off to friends when they come over (where actual function and realibity aren't a concern), sure, get a Stag...hell, just get a Blackthorne and save yourself even more money.

Kooter
09-26-2008, 2:28 PM
I don't know about you guys, but for me, it's not about "the deal", it's about getting a QUALITY item. Stag is NOT quality. Stag is mediocre AT BEST. Yes, you'll spend a little more for a better quality product but when it's chugging along nicely years down the line (and many rounds down the line), you'll see that it's worth it. If you're just going to leave it in your safe and show it off to friends when they come over (where actual function and realibity aren't a concern), sure, get a Stag...hell, just get a Blackthorne and save yourself even more money.

So after 200 rounds of the same remington ammo, my CMMG suffers a jam, and my stag hasn't had a single problem yet, I guess I should leave the CMMG in the safe and use it only to show it off to friends...

Just to add my opinion btw, I believe mil-spec is mil-spec, if you want high quality, like others have said, get a MUR-1A or equal.

RECCE556
09-26-2008, 2:41 PM
So after 200 rounds of the same remington ammo, my CMMG suffers a jam, and my stag hasn't had a single problem yet, I guess I should leave the CMMG in the safe and use it only to show it off to friends...

Just to add my opinion btw, I believe mil-spec is mil-spec, if you want high quality, like others have said, get a MUR-1A or equal.
I'm not a CMMG fan either. And just for your info, Stag and CMMG are NOT MILSPEC despite what their marketing...and neither is the MUR-1A (but the MUR-1A is a good part).

Monticore
09-26-2008, 2:51 PM
I will be choosing a Stag 2HT as my upper as the price/reward ratio suits me just fine. This is my first rifle and I have nothing to copmpare it to. Later I can either buy a new upper or see if Randall can put a better barrel in it for me.

The OP's issue had to do with the rail and the flat-top not matching up perfectly, which may have been a blessing in disguise.

I brought this thread back up as it revolved around a lot of the same components I will have.

Once I have something to compare it to I will probably see the wisdom in your position. Until then I totally thank you for trying to lead this horse to water, I'm just not ready to drink it yet.

I'm also thinking that regardless of the brand of upper, as long as it is a flat-top with F marked FSB, my question about co-witnessing with the Eotech and an ARMS 40 BUIS is pretty much universal.

Will every Eotech be an absolute co-witness with my BUIS, unless I add a riser? Then if I choose the right riser i can move to a 1/3 co-witness instead?

RECCE556
09-26-2008, 2:56 PM
Will every Eotech be an absolute co-witness with my BUIS, unless I add a riser? Then if I choose the right riser i can move to a 1/3 co-witness instead?
More of less, the answer is YES, BUIS sights will co-wit with EOTech's...risers will give you 1/3 co-wit which, imo, is the preferred setup.

Kooter
09-26-2008, 2:56 PM
I may be mistaken, but with an Eotech 512 sitting on my 2HT with no riser, the co-witness is dead center of the reticle, I would have to check when I get home. I almost grabbed a la-rue riser at the same time as the 512 and I am glad I didn't I am happy with the witness actually.

Monticore
09-26-2008, 3:13 PM
More of less, the answer is YES, BUIS sights will co-wit with EOTech's...risers will give you 1/3 co-wit which, imo, is the preferred setup.

Do you find the front sight to be a distraction?

RECCE556
09-26-2008, 3:21 PM
Do you find the front sight to be a distraction?
For me, yes. With or w/o magnified optics, I prefer to have fold down sights front and rear...

f4ipowered
09-26-2008, 3:44 PM
It sounds like your issue is that you want to setup you eoTech right on the gap for spacing and your iron sights and such. And thier is some discussion of if that is a good idea at all. Even though that interface is pretty solid, it is still a mechanical interface and prone to shifting and possibly/probably messing with your zero. Probably even still with that bridge.

For what its worth, I would have been irritated by the mismatch too, but I do a lot of machining as part of my job and have pretty high standards.

You may want to look at the one piece upper receiver/rail that Noveske/Vltor puts out www.noveskerifleworks.com

I know that its a bunch more money, but you get a killer product and this becomes a non issue. Good Luck.

aplinker
09-26-2008, 3:47 PM
More of less, the answer is YES, BUIS sights will co-wit with EOTech's...risers will give you 1/3 co-wit which, imo, is the preferred setup.

Depends on model...

511, 512, 551, 552 will be absolute.

553, 516, 517, 557 incorporate built-in risers and are lower 1/3.

Again, it's about where the sights are within the window when you get the proper sight picture with the irons. The dot moves on top of the front sight post with either an absolute or bottom 1/3. It's just your irons will align through the bottom 1/3 of the window or straight through the center with absolute.

RECCE556
09-26-2008, 4:01 PM
Depends on model...

511, 512, 551, 552 will be absolute.

553, 516, 517, 557 incorporate built-in risers and are lower 1/3.
Yes, absolutely correct...I was only thinking about the low-end models (I haven't been into EOTech's since Rev.F :) )...

Even with a 1/3rd setup, I still prefer not having the irons in my sight picture...

ar15barrels
09-26-2008, 4:55 PM
You may want to look at the one piece upper receiver/rail that Noveske/Vltor puts out www.noveskerifleworks.com

FYI... The VIS is NOT a one piece upper/rail, even though people treat it as such.
It's two pieces, salt brazed together.

The ONLY true one piece reciever/rails are made by LMT.