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eagleboard
07-20-2008, 9:04 PM
can you open carry with a magazine inserted with no cartridges? i did the search button, couldnt find.

eagleboard
07-20-2008, 9:15 PM
i want to try it for the first time at a local laundry mat where theres really no one there.

Decoligny
07-20-2008, 9:22 PM
Yes you can. You can even carry full magazines openly in mag holders on your belt.

See the pamphets in my signature for more info.

Guntech
07-20-2008, 9:23 PM
Better not. check PC12031

sorensen440
07-20-2008, 9:30 PM
PC 12031(g), A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. **Case law now states the ammunition must be in a position from which is can be fired (People. v. Clark)

Decoligny
07-20-2008, 9:36 PM
Better not. check PC12031

PC 12031 deals with "LOADED" firearms. Putting an "EMPTY" magazine into a firearm in no way makes it a "LOADED" firearm. Maybe you should re-read it. Specifically this portion

12031. (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

I suggest you read the attached pamphlets and actually study what the Penal Code says, not what someone else may have told you it says.

Bobula
07-20-2008, 9:41 PM
I ahve a silly question, does it only apply to belt holsters? or are thigh rigs/shoulder holsters ok?

eagleboard
07-20-2008, 9:43 PM
please give me a yes or no. i just want to try this discretley.

sorensen440
07-20-2008, 9:57 PM
please give me a yes or no. i just want to try this discretley.

what do you mean discretley? if your open carry your not descrete
also I would do alot more reading if I were you
I will say yes it is legal but you need to do your own research and not trust someone you dont know for legal advice
check out http://www.californiaopencarry.org/

bigtoe416
07-20-2008, 10:56 PM
I ahve a silly question, does it only apply to belt holsters? or are thigh rigs/shoulder holsters ok?

Belt holsters are specifically mentioned in 12025(f):

Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

Does that mean only belt holsters? Not really. Do any of us really want to try OCing using some method other than what is specifically mentioned as being exempt? Not really.

Having said that, I couldn't imagine a thigh rig being considered to be concealed. A shoulder rig might be a little bit harder to convince a judge that it is not concealed. Just my opinion.

Glock22Fan
07-21-2008, 7:56 AM
Belt holsters are specifically mentioned in 12025(f):

Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

Does that mean only belt holsters? Not really. Do any of us really want to try OCing using some method other than what is specifically mentioned as being exempt? Not really.

Having said that, I couldn't imagine a thigh rig being considered to be concealed. A shoulder rig might be a little bit harder to convince a judge that it is not concealed. Just my opinion.


There is a similar situation with knives, I think I got this off a Jim March website. In the knife laws, there is a statement something on the lines of "Knives must be openly displayed. A knife in a sheath worn on the belt is considered to be openly displayed."

There was a case where the police prosecuted someone for wearing his knife openly on his leg. The judge ruled that this was legal too, saying that the belt sheath was stated as a general example, not as an exclusive example.

I guess this would apply to thigh holsters and even shoulder holsters provided there was no coat, jacket or shirt worn over the holster.

Casual Observer
07-21-2008, 8:31 AM
There is a similar situation with knives, I think I got this off a Jim March website. In the knife laws, there is a statement something on the lines of "Knives must be openly displayed. A knife in a sheath worn on the belt is considered to be openly displayed."

There was a case where the police prosecuted someone for wearing his knife openly on his leg. The judge ruled that this was legal too, saying that the belt sheath was stated as a general example, not as an exclusive example.

I guess this would apply to thigh holsters and even shoulder holsters provided there was no coat, jacket or shirt worn over the holster.

Have a case name to go with that story?

Glock22Fan
07-21-2008, 8:42 AM
Have a case name to go with that story?

No, sorry, but I pointed you the way to go if you want to do the search I haven't got time to do.

I think it's a Jim March site, but there's definitely a site that describes the Cal knife laws, and I'm pretty sure that I got it off there. However, nobody should take my word for this without following up and checking for themselves.

Casual Observer
07-21-2008, 9:29 AM
No, sorry, but I pointed you the way to go if you want to do the search I haven't got time to do.

I think it's a Jim March site, but there's definitely a site that describes the Cal knife laws, and I'm pretty sure that I got it off there. However, nobody should take my word for this without following up and checking for themselves.

That's cool. I was just curious if you had it available. I'll do some searching this morning if I have time and update the thread with the case if I find it.

Decoligny
07-21-2008, 10:15 AM
That's cool. I was just curious if you had it available. I'll do some searching this morning if I have time and update the thread with the case if I find it.

I also don't have the case in front of me, but IIRC it had to do with a Rennaissance Faire. One of the participants as part of his costume had a long dagger secured to his boot (outside of it) fully visible for all to see, and they arrested him for carrying a concealed dagger. Judge ruled in his favor that the "on the belt" was an example, not an exclusive exception.

Glock22Fan
07-21-2008, 10:33 AM
http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html#SECTION%20TWO

This is where I remember it from. No case name I'm afraid.

25(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

Most of it is pretty clear. I've added the bold to section 24; note how, in the case of folding knives, legality is "cross-tied" to PC653k.
Part 25(d) applies to "dirks or daggers" that must be open carried. It is VERY confusing in that it is an example of legal open carry, but not the only possible "recipe".

I know of one case in which a guy was at a public event in costume, and was legally open carrying a bunch of cutlery as part of the costume. Without going into details, let me say that the circumstances were appropriate and nobody was threatened in any way. He had a legally-open-carry sword, another belt knife, a belt pouch, and due to the type of jacket worn he ran out of open-carry belt "real estate". So he specially mounted his last double-edge dagger on his ankle, completely visible (not shoved down the boot or up under the pants cuff). For this, he was charged with felony concealed carry of a dirk or dagger.

The DA tried to paint 25(d) as a "waist area requirement" - but as I pointed out to his public defender, it's an example of what's legal but not a strict requirement. As a result, this guy was fully acquitted at a jury trial and has no criminal record to this day.

hoffmang
07-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Everything you need to know about what defines "loaded" in California:
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

-Gene