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View Full Version : Tell Me Why An OLL Is "Not" A Loophole


Fantasma
07-19-2008, 2:48 PM
~loophole~

"A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance."


Some members say that an oll is not a loophole but it is the law :confused:

I just cannot understand why it is not a loophole, please help me understand before i buy one. Some say it is some say its not a loophole... What is it?

If it is the law why are some so scared about going to oll friendly ranges and scared of cops..? this would imply its a loophole to me... Whatever it is i am gonna take advantage of it :D

Whats your opinion?

CSACANNONEER
07-19-2008, 2:52 PM
A loophole is a way of getting around the law. OLLs are not that, they are complying with the law. The term "loophole" tends to be used by those that don't like the fact that it's within the law or rules or terms of a contract etc. If Barb and Diane didn't want us to have OLLs, they would have written the law in such a way that we wouldn't be able to have them.

Guntech
07-19-2008, 2:55 PM
It can be considered a loophole, but what we are really doing is researching the law thoroughly enough to make sure we are being compliant not trying to go around the law. The law says we can own them as long as they don't have certain features and by complying with that we are obeying the law not finding a loophole. People say its a loophole because they don't know the law well enough to know how to legally obtain an AR-15

Crazed_SS
07-19-2008, 2:57 PM
If Barb and Diane didn't want us to have OLLs, they would have written the law in such a way that we wouldn't be able to have them.

Well they kinda did with the "series" language.. It seems to me that the spirit of the law was to ban all AR-15s and their clones. Gun owners got a lucky break with Harrott though.

Then again, an argument can be made that a fixed mag or gripless AR is sufficiently gimped enough such that it's no longer a "clone" of a real AR and therefore should be legal.

oaklander
07-19-2008, 3:02 PM
There's no "evasion of compliance" with OLLs.

OLL receivers are legal to possess and import because of the Harrot v. County of Kings ruling that stated that AWs must be named by make and model (no more "series" AWs).

Not only that, but the DOJ's own Alison Merrilees actually wrote a letter saying that the OLL receivers were legal to own and import.

When PROPERLY built into a rifle, they are legal either because there are (1) no evil features, or (2) no detachable magazine.

The word loophole implies that we are trying to somehow "skirt" the law. This is entirely wrong. Under the code and case law - properly "built" OLLs are completely legal. The problem is that (1) the DOJ doesn't want to admit this, and (2) because of that, *some* local law enforcement agencies have made mistakes.

Setting that aside, the vast majority of Calgunners proudly take their OLLs out to just about any shooting range. I personally have heard of very few ranges that are not OLL friendly. If some Calgunners are paranoid, that is a problem on their end, and NOT a reflection on the legality of OLLs.

I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE the use of the word "loophole" to describe a legal activity. And I would STRONGLY DISCOURAGE Calgunners from using this phrase to describe what we do with respect to OLLs.

RobG
07-19-2008, 3:06 PM
There is a long list of what cannot be had. Certain brands are not on that list and can be had. If one builds it to follow CA law, I do not see how its a "loophole." IMO, a "loophole" would be building a listed model lower and somehow skirting the law.

Fantasma
07-19-2008, 3:17 PM
I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE the use of the word "loophole" to describe a legal activity. And I would STRONGLY DISCOURAGE Calgunners from using this phrase to describe what we do with respect to OLLs.


Yes i agree! it confuses the legality of oll and puts them in dark light when we use that word, some use the word loop hole and others say its the law. Some reporters coming here for info might be confused also... They could probably say
"owners of OLL's acknowledge Loopholes and question legality"

oaklander
07-19-2008, 3:24 PM
Exactly right.

When people ask me about this, I say that I am following the law "to the letter."

:)

Yes i agree! it confuses the legality of oll and puts them in dark light when we use that word, some use the word loop hole and others say its the law. Some reporters coming here for info might be confused also... They could probably say
"owners of OLL's acknowledge Loopholes and question legality"

CCWFacts
07-19-2008, 3:32 PM
~loophole~

"A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance."

Laws don't have loopholes. Let's say that the speed limit on a certain road is 65, and someone is driving down that road at 65 miles per hour (not any faster). Is that person exploiting a loophole? Should he really get a speeding ticket because really some people wish he were going less than 65? No, of course not; he's following the law.

Putting it another way, the concept of a loophole relies on the idea that there's the law, and then there's some "spirit of the law" or legislative intent or something else outside the law. Sorry, but there isn't. It's hard enough to comply with all the written laws as they are written. If you start worrying about intents and so on, which are not written and which we have no way of knowing, it's madness and it's impossible.

And if we did take into account intents, then it's obviously the intent of the California legislature that we don't own any guns at all. You could say that laws that allows to own any gun are loopholes.

I'm just making the point that when you go looking for meaning beyond what is written in the law, it's total madness.

hoffmang
07-19-2008, 3:33 PM
Calling an OLL a loophole as calling Dick Heller owning a handgun in DC a loophole.

Both are now legal activities because a court of last resort ruled that the current law couldn't be interpreted as written due to constitutional infirmity.

-Gene

BroncoBob
07-19-2008, 3:51 PM
There's no "evasion of compliance" with OLLs.

OLL receivers are legal to possess and import because of the Harrot v. County of Kings ruling that stated that AWs must be named by make and model (no more "series" AWs).

Not only that, but the DOJ's own Alison Merrilees actually wrote a letter saying that the OLL receivers were legal to own and import.

When PROPERLY built into a rifle, they are legal either because there are (1) no evil features, or (2) no detachable magazine.

The word loophole implies that we are trying to somehow "skirt" the law. This is entirely wrong. Under the code and case law - properly "built" OLLs are completely legal. The problem is that (1) the DOJ doesn't want to admit this, and (2) because of that, *some* local law enforcement agencies have made mistakes.

Setting that aside, the vast majority of Calgunners proudly take their OLLs out to just about any shooting range. I personally have heard of very few ranges that are not OLL friendly. If some Calgunners are paranoid, that is a problem on their end, and NOT a reflection on the legality of OLLs.

I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE the use of the word "loophole" to describe a legal activity. And I would STRONGLY DISCOURAGE Calgunners from using this phrase to describe what we do with respect to OLLs.

Oaklander: You mentioned that MS Merrilees wrote a letter stating that OLL were legal to own and import, would you be so kind to post that letter or a link to that letter as I would like to have a copy of it for my files.

Bob

Librarian
07-19-2008, 4:20 PM
BTW, Barb and Diane are US Senators, and actually have nothing directly to do with California 'assault weapons', though they are enthusiastic supporters. Say, rather, "Dave" (Roberti) and "Don" (Perata).

Diane, however, certainly does call obeying the law a 'loophole', as she so characterized the 'black rifle' manufacturers for selling guns that avoided the specifications of the Federal AW-Ban.

Shane916
07-19-2008, 4:29 PM
Oaklander: You mentioned that MS Merrilees wrote a letter stating that OLL were legal to own and import, would you be so kind to post that letter or a link to that letter as I would like to have a copy of it for my files.

Bob

Heres a good list of letters provided by one of the previous replies:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/AR-AK-Approval-Letters/

hoffmang

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=7151

FreshTapCoke
07-19-2008, 5:36 PM
The only loophole found in the OLL story is the one where legislators evaded making constitutional laws by introducing the 'series' language.

AngelDecoys
07-19-2008, 5:38 PM
OLL's a loophole? This would be like saying my deductions are a tax loophole. So deducting my mortgage is a loophole? Nope. I am complying with the law and taking as many deductions possible.

bohoki
07-19-2008, 6:07 PM
i guess if loophole means "a situation in which someting remains legal despite the intentions of the writers of the law"

sure you may have a point

its like car companies calling a stationwagon a "light truck" so they don't have to comply with the stringent emmisions standards for a passenger car


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loophole

Anthonysmanifesto
07-19-2008, 6:22 PM
The only loophole found in the OLL story is the one where legislators evaded making constitutional laws by introducing the 'series' language.

and then validated gun owners with AB 2728.

there will never be another named lower

M. Sage
07-19-2008, 6:28 PM
i guess if loophole means "a situation in which someting remains legal despite the intentions of the writers of the law"

sure you may have a point

its like car companies calling a stationwagon a "light truck" so they don't have to comply with the stringent emmisions standards for a passenger car


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loophole

Station wagon/light truck is an odd thing. It actually goes both ways. Our Bronco is a light truck in every way except that it's registered as a station wagon.

dfletcher
07-19-2008, 7:42 PM
~loophole~

"A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance."


Some members say that an oll is not a loophole but it is the law :confused:

I just cannot understand why it is not a loophole, please help me understand before i buy one. Some say it is some say its not a loophole... What is it?

If it is the law why are some so scared about going to oll friendly ranges and scared of cops..? this would imply its a loophole to me... Whatever it is i am gonna take advantage of it :D

Whats your opinion?

The term loophole bespeaks taking advantage of an error in the drafting of legislation. I view the AW laws having been written as accurate and deliberate and as such, no loophole can exist. There is a presumption in law that where a list exists any omission is deliberate. Since CA listed specific AWs and listed specific configurations as not legal, any configuration or condition which is not specifically listed is legal and I would contend, represents legislative intent.

They're probably wondering what the hell took us so long!

truthseeker
07-19-2008, 9:29 PM
After reading multiple court rulings on this website, in my opinion it is not a loophole. The reason I think this is because of the way that laws are written. What if the law was written to state that all AR15 and AK47's that are BLACK are AW. Well if you make one that is available in any color other than BLACK than by the law it is not an AW. What are your thoughts?

adamsreeftank
07-19-2008, 9:31 PM
Definition of a loophole: someone either too stupid or too lazy to fully research and understand the subject matter of the laws they are writing.

I.E. "can your believe the law that loophole just wrote."

Hopi
07-19-2008, 9:32 PM
and then validated gun owners with AB 2728.

there will never be another named lower

AB 2728.......the touchdown dance at the conclusion of a 99-yard drive in your opponents stadium.....