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1lostinspace
07-18-2008, 8:25 PM
I am looking for real world shooting data for the following rounds

Safety slugs or any kind of frangible rounds in 9mm and 45ACP

40vMax .223 or other entry team light weight rounds.

Any kind of hand gun or rifle round that penetrates less then the FBI 12" requirement.

Please do not post telling us that we want a round that penetrates more the 12" we all know that, thank you. I am trying to get data to compare a few things.

Please list data not opinions on how what you carry is the best,:cool: thank you.

1lostinspace
07-18-2008, 10:59 PM
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

lazyworm
07-18-2008, 11:11 PM
Probably not representative, but a data point regardless
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot30.htm

oaklander
07-18-2008, 11:13 PM
Who is "we?"

:D

J_Rock
07-19-2008, 12:02 AM
I am looking for real world shooting data for the following rounds

Safety slugs or any kind of frangible rounds in 9mm and 45ACP

40vMax .223 or other entry team light weight rounds.

Any kind of hand gun or rifle round that penetrates less then the FBI 12" requirement.

Please do not post telling us that we want a round that penetrates more the 12" we all know that, thank you. I am trying to get data to compare a few things.

Please list data not opinions on how what you carry is the best,:cool: thank you.

The 40gr Vmax bullet will NOT meet the 12" min. penetration and is not recommended as a self defense round

tunder
07-19-2008, 4:34 AM
Here you go.


http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html

1lostinspace
07-23-2008, 9:10 AM
The 40gr Vmax bullet will NOT meet the 12" min. penetration and is not recommended as a self defense round

are you serious? did you not read above?


Please do not post telling us that we want a round that penetrates more the 12" we all know that, thank you. I am trying to get data to compare a few things.

J_Rock
07-23-2008, 10:19 AM
40 gr TAP 3335 fps 16" (side)
Total Pen. 5.13", Max. Cav. 3.13"
Depth to Max. Cav. 2.38", Entry .5"
Retained weight: 0 gr.

-hanko
07-23-2008, 10:47 AM
Please do not post telling us that we want a round that penetrates more the 12" we all know that, thank you. I am trying to get data to compare a few things.

Please list data not opinions on how what you carry is the best,:cool: thank you.
I'd echo the info on the 40gr tap round; very accurate but watch the wind.

How many of you are "us"??:confused: Or are you trying to sound like Jeff Cooper??;)

-hanko

1lostinspace
07-23-2008, 10:40 PM
I am aware of the ballistics of the 40gr I am looking for actual shootings.

aplinker
07-24-2008, 1:48 AM
I am aware of the ballistics of the 40gr I am looking for actual shootings.

If you provide ammo and sign a disclaimer I'll be happy to provide data.... Though it might be only one or two data points. :p

J_Rock
07-24-2008, 7:04 AM
I am aware of the ballistics of the 40gr I am looking for actual shootings.

None that Im aware of. Probably because no one in their right mind would actually use this stuff for self defense or LE work. The only report I have that comes close to the 40gr vmax is one involving the 60gr vmax

1lostinspace
07-24-2008, 6:57 PM
None that Im aware of. Probably because no one in their right mind would actually use this stuff for actual use this stuff for self defense or LE work. The only report I have that comes close to the 40gr vmax is one involving the 60gr vmax

And what happen with the 60gr?

I read that entry teams would use them it was called swift round or something like that, due to the fact it would not over penetrate through walls and so forth, but don't think you can't kill with a 40gr. I don't know why everyone thinks if a round does not penetrate 12" you will not hit vitals, they are only about 2-3" away. The 12" is in case you have to hit from a weird angle or there is an arm in the way.

aplinker
07-24-2008, 7:18 PM
And what happen with the 60gr?

I read that entry teams would use them it was called swift round or something like that, due to the fact it would not over penetrate through walls and so forth, but don't think you can't kill with a 40gr. I don't know why everyone thinks if a round does not penetrate 12" you will not hit vitals, they are only about 2-3" away. The 12" is in case you have to hit from a weird angle or there is an arm in the way.

Of course. You can kill with a Red Ryder BB gun if you put the shot in the right spot. The reason for selecting 12" of penetration is so you can hit them anywhere in the center of mass and have it be effective.

sloguy
07-24-2008, 7:41 PM
are you serious? did you not read above?

yeah, he did read, and answered your exact question.

I am looking for real world shooting data for the following rounds
............................................

..........................................

Any kind of hand gun or rifle round that penetrates less then the FBI 12" requirement.



i have a hornady booklet that talks about all the different tap rounds. ask hornady for that, it covers all important info. hard to find real world info, too many variables. that is why they use gelatin for tests, its uniform and able to be calibrated.

sloguy
07-24-2008, 7:43 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

read this and most of your questions will be answered

jc_stecker
07-25-2008, 9:04 AM
Results from 55gr TAP in an actual shooting
Warning Very Graphic NSFW (http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf)

1lostinspace
07-25-2008, 11:36 AM
yeah I saw that I love how Gold dots performed like crap, everyone has their data all mixed up 12" of penetration is too much 11 out of 17 rounds over penetrated and the Gold dots were stopped by the jacket penetrating 1"
I loaded my RBCD 90 Fragmenting/AP doing over 2000 fps back in as soon as I saw this no denim or any other material is stopping a 90 SP doing over 2000 fps I have tested that my self also with full fragmentation it would hit vitals or he would have bleed out.

I read reports where regular JHP don't even make it through car doors or car seats fail to expand or penetrate heavy clothing. The 12" in my opinion is a bunch of crap and it early 90's theory.
11 out of the 17 rounds over penetrated and the rest penetrated 1" hell one even hit him on the neck.

J_Rock
07-25-2008, 2:09 PM
The 60gr TAP round performed very well, according to the medical examiner, he said something to the effect, "The wound was so bad that you could've put him on the operating table and then shot him. There was nothing they could have done to save him". The guy was hit in the liver and went down instantly(pretty much any liver shot would do that mind you). Considering the 60gr TAP load penetrates about 8-10" is well within range to get to the vitals from a good frontal or side shot, the 12" penetration minimum is there to take bad shot angles in account to make sure there is enough penetration to reach the vitals.

One more thing about the 1986 FBI Miami gun battle is that a 9mm STHP bullet one of the FBI agents fired into one of the bad guys penetrated roughly 10", going by memory of the AAR. That bullet, had it gone just a couple of inches farther before stopping would have ruptured the bad guy's Aorta. If that had happened, he would have been down in a matter of seconds. He would not have been up walking around, going on the offensive and maneuvering against the FBI agents. And there would have been at least 1 agent who went home to his family that day rather than taking a trip to the morgue in a plastic bag.

So knowing this, why would any reasonable, thinking adult who has a choice in the matter elect to carry bullets that may penetrate deep enough 90% of the time (55 gr BTHP's, 55 gr ballistic tips, etc) when they can just as easily and just as cost effectively obtain 68 or 75 gr OTM match loads that fragment with the same devastating effect in humans, but will reach minimum penetration standards nearly 100% of the time? Folks, if you THINK, the answer should be apparent. Don't buy ammo with the best possible scenarios as your guide (straight in frontal shot to the chest) because the bad guy likely isn't going to just stand around and present himself as a nice silhouette target for you. If he is smart, he'll be moving and using cover. Therefore you need a bullet that will also work in the less than ideal scenarios.

Also think about if you have to engage someone through various barriers. For example auto glass is very tough barrier for bullets. They will lose much of their terminal penetration effects after going through auto glass.

Lost, I;m not telling you what to carry but to merely present you with the facts so you can make an informed decision for yourself. This is fact: It's when you don't have the clear-cut COM shot that inadequate ammo will show its limitations.

1lostinspace
07-25-2008, 4:12 PM
The 60gr TAP round performed very well, according to the medical examiner, he said something to the effect, "The wound was so bad that you could've put him on the operating table and then shot him. There was nothing they could have done to save him". The guy was hit in the liver and went down instantly(pretty much any liver shot would do that mind you). Considering the 60gr TAP load penetrates about 8-10" is well within range to get to the vitals from a good frontal or side shot, the 12" penetration minimum is there to take bad shot angles in account to make sure there is enough penetration to reach the vitals.

One more thing about the 1986 FBI Miami gun battle is that a 9mm STHP bullet one of the FBI agents fired into one of the bad guys penetrated roughly 10", going by memory of the AAR. That bullet, had it gone just a couple of inches farther before stopping would have ruptured the bad guy's Aorta. If that had happened, he would have been down in a matter of seconds. He would not have been up walking around, going on the offensive and maneuvering against the FBI agents. And there would have been at least 1 agent who went home to his family that day rather than taking a trip to the morgue in a plastic bag.

So knowing this, why would any reasonable, thinking adult who has a choice in the matter elect to carry bullets that may penetrate deep enough 90% of the time (55 gr BTHP's, 55 gr ballistic tips, etc) when they can just as easily and just as cost effectively obtain 68 or 75 gr OTM match loads that fragment with the same devastating effect in humans, but will reach minimum penetration standards nearly 100% of the time? Folks, if you THINK, the answer should be apparent. Don't buy ammo with the best possible scenarios as your guide (straight in frontal shot to the chest) because the bad guy likely isn't going to just stand around and present himself as a nice silhouette target for you. If he is smart, he'll be moving and using cover. Therefore you need a bullet that will also work in the less than ideal scenarios.

Also think about if you have to engage someone through various barriers. For example auto glass is very tough barrier for bullets. They will lose much of their terminal penetration effects after going through auto glass.

Lost, I;m not telling you what to carry but to merely present you with the facts so you can make an informed decision for yourself. This is fact: It's when you don't have the clear-cut COM shot that inadequate ammo will show its limitations.

Did you see the guy that was hit 17 times with Gold dots 55gr 75gr TAP? 11 out of 17 over penetrated the Gold dots with the so called 12" minimum penetration could berrly make it through a jacket. I ll stick with works for me.
I have shot plenty of animals and can tell you RBCD blows the life out of them.:43:

J_Rock
07-25-2008, 4:45 PM
Did you see the guy that was hit 17 times with Gold dots 55gr 75gr TAP? 11 out of 17 over penetrated the Gold dots with the so called 12" minimum penetration could berrly make it through a jacket. I ll stick with works for me.
I have shot plenty of animals and can tell you RBCD blows the life out of them.:43:

I;m very familiar with this report so look at it again. Many of the hits were peripheral hits or grazing shots that simply never traveled through enough tissue to allow the bullets to do their thing. A bullet that grazes a guy from an angle and only passes through an inch of fatty tissue before exiting again isn't going to create a whole lot of damage, even with a varmint bullet. That is why the 55 gr BST or 75 gr OTM loads didn't "fragment violently as expected". Actually, who would expect that given the circumstances? It sure wouldn't be me. I certainly don't believe that many .223 55 gr BST and 75 gr OTM bullets struck that guy solidly and failed to fragment, that is for sure.

1lostinspace
07-25-2008, 4:50 PM
I;m very familiar with this report so look at it again. Many of the hits were peripheral hits or grazing shots that simply never traveled through enough tissue to allow the bullets to do their thing. A bullet that grazes a guy from an angle and only passes through an inch of fatty tissue before exiting again isn't going to create a whole lot of damage, even with a varmint bullet. That is why the 55 gr BST or 75 gr OTM loads didn't "fragment violently as expected". Actually, who would expect that given the circumstances? It sure wouldn't be me. I certainly don't believe that many .223 55 gr BST and 75 gr OTM bullets struck that guy solidly and failed to fragment, that is for sure.

I can tell you RBCD explodes on impact The .223 your talking about went through his whole body and out his butt with out fragmenting.

here is a test I did


I have shot them through metal with no deformation I have shot them into pork and it destroyed it. Penetrating about 10" and fragmenting all over place.

look at this video they go through thick doors with out fragmenting and then exploding into the clay .Not even FMJ penetrated the door.:cool:
You load what you want I have seen coyotes get hit with it and blow them apart, insides are turned into soup and fragments from front to back:43:
I have shot coyotes with 230 Hydro and had to shoot them again. The RBCD stuff shoots frag everywhere killing them even if I did not get a clean shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea2es1K7QsQ

Like in the shooting I posted above most rounds that penetrate 12" in gelatin over penetrate. 10" of penetration with full fragmentation and due to high velocity cavitation simply spells death.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/100_0839.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/100_0846.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/100_0852-2.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/100_0850-1.jpg

sloguy
07-25-2008, 11:12 PM
lost, why do you consider complete penetration to be a bad thing?

sloguy
07-25-2008, 11:23 PM
i just watched that youtube video. utter crap. how is a 45 fmj not penetrating the door but the frangible is?

J_Rock
07-25-2008, 11:42 PM
I have shot plenty of animals and can tell you RBCD blows the life out of them.

Thats because its a varmint round. If I told you .223 36gr varmint grenade was a good self defense load you would probably think I was high. Just because the round 'blows the life' outta some squirrel doesn't mean its good defensive ammo.

Dont buy into the snake oil of the 'blended metal' bullets. These bullets have been debunked many times by wound ballistics experts. Basically anything thats light and fast will have 'spectacular' fragmentation. Pretty much any varmint load will do what RBCD ammo does. Notice how the RBCD is half the weight of the ranger ammo and loaded very hot.

Another test of the 'magic' ammo.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38_2.htm

I'm not against you using this ammo because, hey its your life. But you may persuade others on this forum that lightweight fragmenting rounds are good for self-defense. This highly erroneous and might actually cost the life of someone who follows your advice. The FBI 12" min penetration exists for a reason. This wasnt just something someone made up. It took some officers to be put in body bags before they realized they needed to have a minium standard for ammo performance and RBCD ammo just does not meet that standard.

J_Rock
07-25-2008, 11:53 PM
Here is another metric ton of info about why you shouldnt use this ammo

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

In summary, all of the above rounds have the same common traits: Very light weight projectiles pushed to very high velocities. This is coupled with some fantastic claims about bullet performance in a very slick marketing campaign and outlandish claims.

I have thought long and hard about how to present a FAQ on these controversial types of ammunition. The problem is that there is so little available in the way of hard data that being objective is a very difficult proposition. Let me start by saying that I am an adherent of the Dr. Martin Fackler school of wound ballistics, which may be summed up by the phrase "slow, heavy bullets are better than fast, lightweight bullets." This is certainly an oversimplification, but describes the basic premise fairly well. The bullets made by these companies go directly counter to this idea. But why are slow, heavy bullets better?

Please refer to my collected posts of scanned Fackler articles in the ammunition forum for some background reading. I consider myself to be a very logically thinking person, and my beliefs are rooted in the scientific method.

The most important points can be summarized in his article entitled "The Ideal Police Bullet."
Those factors are as follows:
1) The only reliable means of stopping the aggression of a determined adversary is by disrupting vital body structures.
2) The heart and major blood vessels are the vital structures of the torso.
3) Bullets penetrate by crushing the tissue they hit.
4) Ideal penetration depth is between 30cm and 50cm in 10% ordnance gelatin at 4deg C.
5) Provided that they reach the necessary penetration depth, those bullets with the largest expanded diameter are the most effective.

J_Rock
07-25-2008, 11:54 PM
So please lost if you like the ammo, great but dont try to the sell the snake oil around here. You might actually get someone killed doing stuff like this

1lostinspace
07-26-2008, 7:04 AM
So please lost if you like the ammo, great but dont try to the sell the snake oil around here. You might actually get someone killed doing stuff like this

No one is trying to sell anything, get killed kind of like how Gold dot a well respected round did in the shooting posted above?

This round performed allot like 60gr V max 10" penetration with full fragmentation

1lostinspace
07-26-2008, 7:06 AM
i just watched that youtube video. utter crap. how is a 45 fmj not penetrating the door but the frangible is?

it's not a frangible that's what I have been trying to tell you guys did you see what it did to the metal plate?


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/100_0850-1.jpg

1lostinspace
07-26-2008, 7:10 AM
lost, why do you consider complete penetration to be a bad thing?

because you loose energy the guy in the shooting posted above was hit 17 times most of the rounds went in and out the ones that hit and fragmented killed him.


I am big a believer of velocity and fragmentation

look at this http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875

This is the Military/LE version that is AP. this is the rounded tested they measured the diameter and penetration minus the huge fragmentation! It's funny how the best things are always misunderstood and discredited.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/GaryRoberts9mmgelatinpicandcomments.jpg

J_Rock
07-26-2008, 11:53 AM
ITS GIMMICK AMMO! DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Think about it, this stuff has been around since 2001 so why do no LE agencies use or why hasnt it gained wide spread use as viable self defense ammo?


A preliminary SEM Elemental Analysis of RBCD/LeMas/Blended Metal ammunition has been completed on .45 ACP bullets sent to us from two different colleagues who had received ammunition samples from Stan Bulmer of LeMas.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/RBCD_SEM_analysis_1.jpg
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/RBCD_SEM_analysis_2.jpg
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/RBCD_SEM_analysis_3.jpg
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/RBCD_SEM_analysis_4.jpg
As can be seen above, in addition to a typical copper jacket, the RBCD/LeMas bullets analyzed were fabricated with a nylon core (that gets variably squished and deformed during manufacture, resulting in inconsistent bullet CG) and metal nose portion that turns out to be composed of LEAD, with slight amounts of antimony. In other words, the RBCD/LeMas bullets are lightweight, high-velocity, lead nosed JSP’s—so much for lead-free, programmable, heat sensitive “blended metal technology”…

1lostinspace
07-26-2008, 1:09 PM
I have seen all the stuff you have posted a million times.
Now let me ask you have you ever shot the stuff?
It's funny how people do a google search and think they found the answer.
Until you hunt and test it your self you really can't have an opinion on it.
Tell me this why will it penetrate with no deformation through car doors that not even FMJ can go through?
Velocity? so be it. Why does it frag violently makes huge wholes into things? Velocity? so be it.
Like I said get some and test it against any other ammo.
As far as LE using it at $2 a round it's a bit much, have you ever wondered why ammunition companies are now experimenting with the light fast bullet theory?
Did you see what it did to that metal? The Winchester +P 230 T series scratched it to where the RBCD almost made it through and it's not even the AP version. Did you know that it has been tested and has penetrated not only armor but armor prof glass that no other ammo could penetrate? You are choosing to avoid a real life shoot out posted previously where the Gold dots failed to penetrate clothing. You have to shoot it to believe it is all I am saying.

J_Rock
07-26-2008, 3:55 PM
I have seen all the stuff you have posted a million times.
Now let me ask you have you ever shot the stuff?
It's funny how people do a google search and think they found the answer.
Until you hunt and test it your self you really can't have an opinion on it.
Tell me this why will it penetrate with no deformation through car doors that not even FMJ can go through?
Velocity? so be it. Why does it frag violently makes huge wholes into things? Velocity? so be it.
Like I said get some and test it against any other ammo.
As far as LE using it at $2 a round it's a bit much, have you ever wondered why ammunition companies are now experimenting with the light fast bullet theory?
Did you see what it did to that metal? The Winchester +P 230 T series scratched it to where the RBCD almost made it through and it's not even the AP version. Did you know that it has been tested and has penetrated not only armor but armor prof glass that no other ammo could penetrate? You are choosing to avoid a real life shoot out posted previously where the Gold dots failed to penetrate clothing. You have to shoot it to believe it is all I am saying.

Um yeah... I was at their demonstration back in 2005. I WAS a believer in their ammo and I have to admit they did put on a really good show. Enough to make anyone a believer until I saw the independent testing results by Doc Roberts. Trust me when you shoot this stuff at steel and warmed mutton the results look spectacular. Now I;m alittle more learned in the area of terminal ballistics and know I know how a bullet can look great on paper and in demonstrations and still fail at being an effective performer.

1lostinspace
07-27-2008, 8:50 AM
Um yeah... I was at their demonstration back in 2005. I WAS a believer in their ammo and I have to admit they did put on a really good show. Enough to make anyone a believer until I saw the independent testing results by Doc Roberts. Trust me when you shoot this stuff at steel and warmed mutton the results look spectacular. Now I;m alittle more learned in the area of terminal ballistics and know I know how a bullet can look great on paper and in demonstrations and still fail at being an effective performer.

What round to you use? Why did the Gold dots fail to stop the threat?Why did 11 out of 17 rounds.223 over penetrate through his whole body?

ar15barrels
07-27-2008, 9:39 AM
Watching un-educated people argue with professionls is funny.
Kinda like hiring the handicapped because they are fun to watch.

I have Dr. Robert's number in my cell phone.
I defer to experts when I'm not qualified on a topic.
That's a better source that marketing materials put out by Bulmer's fan boys...

J_Rock
07-27-2008, 2:48 PM
Watching un-educated people argue with professionls is funny.
Kinda like hiring the handicapped because they are fun to watch.

I have Dr. Robert's number in my cell phone.
I defer to experts when I'm not qualified on a topic.
That's a better source that marketing materials put out by Bulmer's fan boys...

I guess there are some people you just can convince, even if told by experts in the field that they are wrong.

aplinker
07-27-2008, 2:51 PM
I guess there are some people you just can convince, even if told by experts in the field that they are wrong.

Why believe experts when you can shoot a ham sandwich?

1lostinspace
07-27-2008, 3:42 PM
Watching un-educated people argue with professionls is funny.
Kinda like hiring the handicapped because they are fun to watch.

I have Dr. Robert's number in my cell phone.
I defer to experts when I'm not qualified on a topic.
That's a better source that marketing materials put out by Bulmer's fan boys...


I am far from un-educated,ask Dr Robert's why the Gold dots did not penetrate more than 1" after hitting the jacket?

1lostinspace
07-27-2008, 3:46 PM
Why believe experts when you can shoot a ham sandwich?

same question goes to you why will Gold dots and other well known 12" penetrating rounds be stopped by a jacket and T shirt? Did you see the shooting posted above, it's a human not jello.

aplinker
07-27-2008, 4:11 PM
same question goes to you why will Gold dots and other well known 12" penetrating rounds be stopped by a jacket and T shirt? Did you see the shooting posted above, it's a human not jello.

Do you know what happened to that round prior to impact? Was it deflected? Did it hit another object? Traverse another body part? What else happened?

I don't. I can't look at where a bullet is solely in an x-ray and determine what happened. I will rely upon experts who have examined bodies and bullets.

Look, let me put it this way... if you set up a test in one way you can get behavior that's seemingly completely contradictory. Hell, I can run a test that proves a single metal atom can go through two holes simultaneously. That doesn't mean that it won't behave in a different way under different conditions.

Bottom line, if it really worked as touted, more people who actually put their life on the line day in and day out would be using it, as they would be advised to do so by those chartered to protect them.

There's no great "conspiracy of bullet manufacturers."

1lostinspace
07-27-2008, 4:20 PM
Do you know what happened to that round prior to impact? Was it deflected? Did it hit another object? Traverse another body part? What else happened?

I don't. I can't look at where a bullet is solely in an x-ray and determine what happened. I will rely upon experts who have examined bodies and bullets.

Look, let me put it this way... if you set up a test in one way you can get behavior that's seemingly completely contradictory. Hell, I can run a test that proves a single metal atom can go through two holes simultaneously. That doesn't mean that it won't behave in a different way under different conditions.

Bottom line, if it really worked as touted, more people who actually put their life on the line day in and day out would be using it, as they would be advised to do so by those chartered to protect them.

There's no great "conspiracy of bullet manufacturers."


If you read the artical there was nothing stopping the round but a jacket and Tshirt. Also 11-17 rounds went in and out! I have shot at thick metal doors with 45ACP in Hydro GD and FMJ and it did not penetrate.
The snake oil POS round RBCD went right through and blew up the gallon of water on the other side.

one is 77SMK one is RBCD they sure look a like

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/77grmain-1.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/gelati3-1.jpg


look at this


http://www.brassfetcher.com/230gr%20Federal%20Hydra-Shok%20(From%20a%20Derringer).html

I have test Hydro with the same results

J_Rock
07-27-2008, 5:14 PM
What round to you use? Why did the Gold dots fail to stop the threat?Why did 11 out of 17 rounds.223 over penetrate through his whole body?

DID YOU NOT READ MY PREVIOUS POST WHERE I SAY WHY THOSE ROUNDS MERELY WENT THROUGH THE GUY?

I;m very familiar with this report so look at it again. Many of the hits were peripheral hits or grazing shots that simply never traveled through enough tissue to allow the bullets to do their thing. A bullet that grazes a guy from an angle and only passes through an inch of fatty tissue before exiting again isn't going to create a whole lot of damage, even with a varmint bullet. That is why the 55 gr BST or 75 gr OTM loads didn't "fragment violently as expected". Actually, who would expect that given the circumstances? It sure wouldn't be me. I certainly don't believe that many .223 55 gr BST and 75 gr OTM bullets struck that guy solidly and failed to fragment, that is for sure.

J_Rock
07-27-2008, 5:27 PM
Also read the pdf again. It states "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body."

1lostinspace
07-27-2008, 10:10 PM
Also read the pdf again. It states "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body."

that is actually the guys opinion he also said 72 gr TAP.
You can see the rounds in the X ray. There are a lot of rounds that do not perform right with jackets denim cotton and other things in the way.


Look I am not saying the RBCD is the Answer to everything.
Here is what I like about it.

Huge permanent and temporary cavity. Frag and a Bigger wound area are more likely to hit vitals. Everyone hates the stuff because it penetrates 10-11" instead of 12"
penetration is not the problem FMJ penetrates with out a problem but has had a bad street record at around 50%. A guy at my gym was hit 5 times with a 45ACP in FMJ, lost some of his stomach but is still alive. 4 out of 5 rounds exited and one is stuck in his hip. If it was RBCD he would not have a stomach and not Be here.

Low recoil the follow up shots are fast.

Great feeding, because it's shaped like FMJ

100% expansion and fragmentation I don't have to worry about a JHP clogging up and acting like FMJ.

Penetrating heavy clothing due to it's high velocity it will penetrate clothing with out a problem.
I am soon getting the LE version because my girls dad owns a security company I can umbrella under
so now were are talking about AP and 18" of penetration.

Penetrating car doors it zips through them like butter having enough energy to kill on the other side.


Here is what I don't like


The price sucks

Not a lot of people have been shot with it yet.

J_Rock
07-28-2008, 1:30 AM
OK I Just saw your posts in the handgun forums and have concluded that you have completely bought into the false claims of the lemas/rbcd ammo and nothing can change your mind. But please keep it to yourself, there is no reason why you shouldnt enjoy blowing up pork with these magical bullets. Just dont spread the BS around these forums because god forbid some newbie uneducated in the realm of terminal ballistics might actually believe the false claims you have presented which might actually get them killed because the magical/fairy dust coated ammo failed to stop an aggressor.

AGAIN RBCD IS GIMMICK AMMO AND IT NOT A VIABLE SELF DEFENSE ROUND

cheesypoof
07-28-2008, 2:20 AM
AGAIN RBCD IS GIMMICK AMMO AND IT NOT A VIABLE SELF DEFENSE ROUND

If you had to choose 1 specific commercial .223 round for self/home defense what would it be? If you hinted towards this in your previous posts sorry, I got lost in all the talk about fragmentation and penetration. What about http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=118191 or http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=438029 for a 1/7 twist 14.5" carbine?

1lostinspace
07-28-2008, 8:52 AM
If you had to choose 1 specific commercial .223 round for self/home defense what would it be? If you hinted towards this in your previous posts sorry, I got lost in all the talk about fragmentation and penetration. What about http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=118191 or http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=438029 for a 1/7 twist 14.5" carbine?


Well since I know nothing here is what I know.

1/7 twist would more likely lean towards a 77SMK but due to a shorter barrel you might want to look at the 75TAP or even 60-55TAP. They are good proven loads.

1lostinspace
07-28-2008, 8:54 AM
OK I Just saw your posts in the handgun forums and have concluded that you have completely bought into the false claims of the lemas/rbcd ammo and nothing can change your mind. But please keep it to yourself, there is no reason why you shouldnt enjoy blowing up pork with these magical bullets. Just dont spread the BS around these forums because god forbid some newbie uneducated in the realm of terminal ballistics might actually believe the false claims you have presented which might actually get them killed because the magical/fairy dust coated ammo failed to stop an aggressor.

AGAIN RBCD IS GIMMICK AMMO AND IT NOT A VIABLE SELF DEFENSE ROUND


Yeah the other major companies and paid off doctors don't approve. :cool:

J_Rock
07-28-2008, 10:44 AM
If you had to choose 1 specific commercial .223 round for self/home defense what would it be? If you hinted towards this in your previous posts sorry, I got lost in all the talk about fragmentation and penetration. What about http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=118191 or http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=438029 for a 1/7 twist 14.5" carbine?

Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, These bullets require 1:8 or tighter twist barrels, though they may work in SOME 1:9 barrels.

- Hornady 75gr TAP (5.56 load) http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-556-hornady-tap-75gr-bthp-t2-ammo&cName=223-556-hollow-point-ammo
- Hornady 75gr TAP or TAP-PD (.223 load)
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-223-hornady-tap-fpd-75gr-ammo&cName=223-556-hollow-point-ammo
- Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=438029

The first choice 75gr TAP 5.56 is difficult to find because sales are restricted to LEOs only. Ammo to go is the only place that sells this stuff to civilians that I know of. If you have a LEO friend or family member you can get them to order it for you. TAP PD black box is pretty common and so is the BH loads. I personally use the BH 75gr match loads for self defense

J_Rock
07-28-2008, 11:04 AM
Yeah the other major companies and paid off doctors don't approve. :cool:

Great, you lose the argument and dismiss wound ballistics experts as being "paid off". You just lost the little credibility you had.

sloguy
07-28-2008, 2:16 PM
Why believe experts when you can shoot a ham sandwich?

thats rather signature worthy.

JUNTURA
07-28-2008, 3:08 PM
Great, you lose the argument and dismiss wound ballistics experts as being "paid off". You just lost the little credibility you had.

ouch!;)

IceMan711
07-28-2008, 3:22 PM
Yeah the other major companies and paid off doctors don't approve. :cool:

God, this guy fricken kills me sometimes. Reminds me of his Glock threads that went in a similar fashion.

ar15barrels
07-28-2008, 3:32 PM
God, this guy fricken kills me sometimes.

I put him on my ignore list a while ago.
Makes him much easier to take.

JUNTURA
07-28-2008, 4:27 PM
I put him on my ignore list a while ago.
Makes him much easier to take.


Dbl ouch....

Maybe harsh, but necessary at times.

AJD
07-28-2008, 5:01 PM
Reminds me of his Glock threads that went in a similar fashion.

....And his claims that longer barrels will ALWAYS be more accurate than short barrels even at very short distances, despite clear overwhelming evidence by many very knowlegeable individuals that his claims may not be correct.

aplinker
07-28-2008, 5:43 PM
This whole thread is a troll...

"I'm looking for information about these rounds."

Then, when information is given, it's all just a big argument and advertisement for snake oil.

The purpose of arguing isn't to argue with him, but to keep others from being led astray.

1lostinspace
07-28-2008, 8:42 PM
....And his claims that longer barrels will ALWAYS be more accurate than short barrels even at very short distances, despite clear overwhelming evidence by many very knowlegeable individuals that his claims may not be correct.

shorter barrels are more accurate at 100 from there on velocity is needed there for the long barrels come into their own.:cool:

and where is this overwhelming evidence show me data where a short barrel held any world record past 100:TFH:

1lostinspace
07-28-2008, 8:42 PM
This whole thread is a troll...

"I'm looking for information about these rounds."

Then, when information is given, it's all just a big argument and advertisement for snake oil.

The purpose of arguing isn't to argue with him, but to keep others from being led astray.

Look we have different views on stopping power, that been said there is no reason for you to start disrespecting me on my own thread.

I have been reloading and testing and researching ammo longer then some of the guys on here have been a live.

My HD load had always been Winchester T series +P 230 gr and 127 +P+ in 9mm. Then I came across this stuff, now I am well educated in ballistics the Miami shoot out and the 12". I started testing this stuff about a year ago. Is it the best ammo in the world I don't know, here is what I know it penetrated past 10" in pork hitting bone and penetrating denim before doing so. It penetrates through metal like no other hand gun round I have ever seen. I have shot coyotes and deer with it and seen my friend put his dog down:( I am not a troll trying to sale anything.

Kestryll
07-28-2008, 10:01 PM
Knock off the personal comments and little shots.

I will never understand why some people seem compelled to say, I think this post is BS. I know, I'll spend the next two days picking at it!

It's real simple, if you don't think a thread is valid DON'T REPLY TO IT!!
Damn that was easy wasn't it??

ar15barrels
07-28-2008, 10:25 PM
It's real simple, if you don't think a thread is valid DON'T REPLY TO IT!!

Have you ever seen a dog wandering in the street?
Some people drive by and think "gee, that dog might get hit".
Others stop traffic while the dog wanders across to the other side.
And some people actually get out, retrieve the dog to the side of the road and figure out where he belongs and takes him there to be sure he gets home safe.

This thread is a dog wandering in the street.
By posting threads about this ammo's supposed performance, the OP is hoping that people will wander in and believe what they are reading by the OP.
He's basically a shill for RBCD if you look at what he's trying to do in all these recent threads.
The people that actually know about the topic are here simply to debunk what we know is false from the start and protect the un-educated folks from getting bad info by giving them more of the whole story.

1lostinspace
07-29-2008, 8:19 AM
Have you ever seen a dog wandering in the street?
Some people drive by and think "gee, that dog might get hit".
Others stop traffic while the dog wanders across to the other side.
And some people actually get out, retrieve the dog to the side of the road and figure out where he belongs and takes him there to be sure he gets home safe.

This thread is a dog wandering in the street.
By posting threads about this ammo's supposed performance, the OP is hoping that people will wander in and believe what they are reading by the OP.
He's basically a shill for RBCD if you look at what he's trying to do in all these recent threads.
The people that actually know about the topic are here simply to debunk what we know is false from the start and protect the un-educated folks from getting bad info by giving them more of the whole story.

I thought you had me on your ignore list?

Kestryll
07-29-2008, 9:12 AM
*sigh*

This thread just made my ignore list.

And this is thread on a web forum, not a dog in the street.
As long as it does not violate the rules everyone is allowed to voice their opinion.
Do you have to agree with it? No.
Do you have to feel it is correct? No.
Do you have to reply? No.

Do you have to follow the rules and leave the personal comments at the door? Yes.

Again, and finally, if you don't like the post, don't reply.