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View Full Version : Is a rifle with a Ceiner kit in it legally a rimfire rifle?


mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 8:44 AM
These question addresses using a Ceiner .22LR kit in a pistol gripped AR-15.

1. Would it be illegal to have a pistol gripped, detachable magazine lower attached to a 5.56mm upper with no BCG installed?

(you'll see where I'm going with this)

2. What can one say to prove (to an LEO or the DOJ) that a Ceiner .22LR kit installed in a "featured" rifle is legal under the rimfire exemption, even though the chamber is still a centerfire chamber?


At this point I'm still too cautious to use my Ceiner kit in a featured rifle; meaning I do not remove my magazine locks or swap out the MM grip when using a Ceiner kit.

.22guy
07-18-2008, 8:46 AM
I don't know if that is illegal or not, but I think you would be asking for trouble.

JBird33
07-18-2008, 8:48 AM
I think the cost of MAYBE winning such a court battle are more than it would be worth risking.

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 8:49 AM
That's exactly what I think, but I thought it was routine for calgunner's to run Ceiner kits in features rifles?

I know a lot of people are buying B-15 bullet buttons for that purpose.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-18-2008, 8:50 AM
These question addresses using a Ceiner .22LR kit in a pistol gripped AR-15.

1. Would it be illegal to have a pistol gripped, detachable magazine lower attached to a 5.56mm upper with no BCG installed?

(you'll see where I'm going with this)

2. What can one say to prove (to an LEO or the DOJ) that a Ceiner .22LR kit installed in a "featured" rifle is legal under the rimfire exemption, even though the chamber is still a centerfire chamber?


At this point I'm still too cautious to use my Ceiner kit in a featured rifle; meaning I do not remove my magazine locks or swap out the MM grip when using a Ceiner kit.

To be on the safer side, you may want to invest in a .22lr marked lower receiver. Just like anything else, according to the letter of the law you are legal, but an LEO may not see it that way. In its current configuration with the Ceiner kit it is not capable of shooting a centerfire cartidge.

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 9:02 AM
It's not the marking of the receiver that matters, it's the fact that the barrel and chamber of the weapon are still centerfire.

A .22LR market lower doesn't hurt (Certainly would help with an uniformed LEO..."see, it's says .22LR")

Gator Monroe
07-18-2008, 9:09 AM
A MAK 90 with a Ciener kit is not a (Rimfire AK) WASR 22 ...

CSACANNONEER
07-18-2008, 9:10 AM
A .22LR market lower doesn't hurt (Certainly would help with an uniformed LEO..."see, it's says .22LR")

lol, that would mean, that an uniformed LEO might mistake my 50BMG for a .223 because, my 50BMG upper is on a Fab10 lower that's marked ".223."

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 9:15 AM
lol, that would mean, that an uniformed LEO might mistake my 50BMG for a .223 because, my 50BMG upper is on a Fab10 lower that's marked ".223."

All I said was that what is written on the lower is immaterial, but it certainly can't hurt if you're going the .22LR featured rifle route. The other poster seemed to think whether the lower said ".22LR" or not was the key.

My point is that if you're on the side of the road, with an LEO who can barely tell which end the bullet comes out of, and he/she is trying to tell you it's an illegal assault weapon, being able to show her the letter of the law with the rimfire exemption and then show her the lower marked ".22LR" is certainly easier than trying to explain that the upper is a .22LR even though the lower is marked "5.56mm". Not all LEO's are gun people, and not all LEO's think citizens should be allowed to guns. Plan for the worst, hope for the best (that LEO who will inspect it and say "hey man, where do I get that Aimpoint T-1. That thing is awesome!").

Essentially, the marking of the lower is immaterial in the technical aspect but could come in handy in a practical aspect.

CSACANNONEER
07-18-2008, 9:36 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you and actually, I agree with you about getting a .22lr marked lower. When I read your post about markings, I had a flashback to some newbee that was at the range once and asked me what caliber my rifle was. I said, ".223, it says so right here." His eyes just got big as he stared at my 34+ pound monster and then he walked off.

BTT, I would be inclined to call the rifle in question a ceter fire rifle with a conversion kit. A dedicated .22lr upper would make it a real rimfire rifle. Again, this is just my opinion.

Ironchef
07-18-2008, 9:42 AM
Tis why I got the Spike's SL-15 lower..it's marked with "CAL. 'MULTI'" instead of .223/5.56. BUt of course I have to buy the full .22lr upper to stay safe and avoid the possible pitfall this OP has.

A question. So does this ceiner .22lr kit just include the bolt and bolt carrier? And do you use a .223/5.56 barreled action? What about barrel twists and the gas port getting clogged? Guess I'm asking what the kit includes.

Harbinger
07-18-2008, 9:51 AM
I've modified an old beat down Vulcan to be my .22LR Lower. I run it with an open magwell and standard mag release, but I've inserted (read: permanently wedged) a dowel into the buffer tube.

I've never been harassed any any of the ranges I patronize. I HAVE, however, scared a few ROs at San Leandro when un-casing it in the indoor range. :p

Perhaps I should get the lower engraved/etched with ".22lr ONLY", as well.

Mike

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you and actually, I agree with you about getting a .22lr marked lower. When I read your post about markings, I had a flashback to some newbee that was at the range once and asked me what caliber my rifle was. I said, ".223, it says so right here." His eyes just got big as he stared at my 34+ pound monster and then he walked off.

BTT, I would be inclined to call the rifle in question a ceter fire rifle with a conversion kit. A dedicated .22lr upper would make it a real rimfire rifle. Again, this is just my opinion.

No offense taken. :)

That's my opinion too, but just in the interest of "progress" (pushing the limits of what is legal), I started the thread.

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 10:03 AM
Tis why I got the Spike's SL-15 lower..it's marked with "CAL. 'MULTI'" instead of .223/5.56. BUt of course I have to buy the full .22lr upper to stay safe and avoid the possible pitfall this OP has.

A question. So does this ceiner .22lr kit just include the bolt and bolt carrier? And do you use a .223/5.56 barreled action? What about barrel twists and the gas port getting clogged? Guess I'm asking what the kit includes.

Yep, it just replaced the bolt and carrier.

Barrel twist isn't ideal The slower twist AR-15 barrels are generally more accurate when using a Ceiner barrel (1:9 and 1:12 twists), since .22LR is normally a 1:16 twist.

But, I get 1.5'' groups at 25 yards out of an 18'' 1:7. Definitely accurate enough for what I use it for (practicing hosing for 3 gun)

mxpatriot51
07-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I've modified an old beat down Vulcan to be my .22LR Lower. I run it with an open magwell and standard mag release, but I've inserted (read: permanently wedged) a dowel into the buffer tube.

I've never been harassed any any of the ranges I patronize. I HAVE, however, scared a few ROs at San Leandro when un-casing it in the indoor range. :p

Perhaps I should get the lower engraved/etched with ".22lr ONLY", as well.

Mike

I bet that Ceiner is a little more reliable with something solid to recoil against instead of a carbine buffer. Have you noticed that?

Army
07-18-2008, 10:39 AM
I've a 1-14" heavy stainless on one lower, and my conversion kit works great in the slow twist.

But now, I have a dedicated Spikes upper so I can put all my Tactical Mall Ninja gear on :)

ar15barrels
07-18-2008, 11:01 AM
While it may be legal to have a ceiner kit installed in the gun and have a full featured build, it would also be easily possible for that ceiner kit to magically dissappear in the evidence locker, leaving a rifle that's clearly centerfire.

The safest method to do a full featured rimfire build would be with a dedicated 22 upper that could never accept centerfire ammo.