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View Full Version : Locked, enclosed handgun cases... on the hip? Concealed or not?


grammaton76
07-18-2008, 5:05 AM
This is a mental exercise for the future - please, I don't want to see any lunatics take this idea and run around using it right away. Let things percolate a bit first.

But anyway, I couldn't sleep tonight, and my mind was wandering somewhere between bullet buttons, CA legal handgun transit in vehicles, and open carry. That's when I realized that you might be able to combine the three. I've already determined that the Blackhawk SERPA wouldn't work (for those who don't know, these holsters have a push-button which locks the handgun in place, and will only relinquish it if you press the button whilst pulling the handgun out), but it seems the core idea would apply to a fully enclosed locked container on your hip.

A pic of the SERPA... now envision something like it, but with a transparent material completely enclosing it.

http://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/44H1_0.JPG

Now, if a qualified as a locked container, might that also satisfy vehicular transport requirements, thus rendering it perfectly safe to drive around with without checking for school zones?

Here's the PC section which rules out the SERPA but wouldn't necessarily rule out a custom-built container:

(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

It seems to me that a holster-shaped container attached to the hip and made of a completely transparent material (lexan?) would qualify as a locked container, and the weapon wouldn't be concealed. A small key lock would work to unlock it.

Another, even crazier idea - even if it weren't transparent, if the gun is locked up inside of a mini-safe with a key, would it actually be illegal to conceal the mini-safe? After all, I'm pretty sure that transporting a pistol inside of a standard gun lockbox in a backpack is legal. How large does a lockbox have to be? ;)

If there were a kydex or carbon fiber total-enclosure container for a gun, which required a key to open, I imagine this would pass muster as a locking device, and thus the handgun wouldn't be "concealed", but simply legally transported... the case only happens to have a small-of-the-back clip or so. If girls can learn to undo bra clasps behind them, surely CA gun nuts can learn to get a key into a lock and turn it...

Liberty1
07-18-2008, 7:29 AM
Keep that idea in your back pocket if the 2nd A. fails to get us loaded open carry with no 1000' school victim disarmament zones. ;)

Librarian
07-18-2008, 11:33 AM
The issue in the law is that the locked case is a legal way to transport a concealable handgun concealed without CCW.

Seems to me if the case is transparent, the contents are not concealed. With a lock, I'm sure it would be just as good for handgun transport as one that is opaque.

But I'm also sure you'd get police officers scratching their heads with that "what now?" look on their faces.

InvictusManeo
07-18-2008, 11:47 AM
I have seen nothing in any law* stating that the locked container can't be slung on a belt. I personally would prefer a push-button combo lock, or biometric system. Using a key on your hip seems ungainly to me.

*I do not, however, claim to have read and understood every piece of federal, state, county, and city firearm law.

Liberty1
07-18-2008, 11:52 AM
The issue in the law is that the locked case is a legal way to transport a concealable handgun concealed without CCW.

Seems to me if the case is transparent, the contents are not concealed. With a lock, I'm sure it would be just as good for handgun transport as one that is opaque.

But I'm also sure you'd get police officers scratching their heads with that "what now?" look on their faces.

What this does do by making 12025 irrelevant, is allow a sort of open carry through a school zone with none of the travel limitations imposed by the 12026.1a &2a exemptions! ;) :D

Blue
07-18-2008, 11:54 AM
You could take something like a Lifejacket and put a belt loop on it too right?

MudCamper
07-18-2008, 11:57 AM
Interesting.

So you only want the "fully enclosed locked case" part for when you must comply with the 626.9 "school zones", which reference the 12026.2 for the definition of the locked case.

Otherwise you are just open carrying per 12025(f) and it doesn't even need to be locked.

Seems legal to me.

WokMaster1
07-18-2008, 1:26 PM
Instead of a key, maybe a push button combo lock. I have in mind something along the line of RoboCop's holster where at the push of the right buttons, the panels open up & out comes the pistola in a Serpa-type holster.

grammaton76
07-19-2008, 1:20 AM
Ya know, the more I think about this... the less I think it actually needs to be transparent. Transparent and on the hip is just kind of a nicety.

Opaque and concealed under jacket/whatnot for the win. It's not a concealed weapon, just an inconspicuously transported lockbox...

grammaton76
07-19-2008, 1:24 AM
Instead of a key, maybe a push button combo lock. I have in mind something along the line of RoboCop's holster where at the push of the right buttons, the panels open up & out comes the pistola in a Serpa-type holster.

As long as it's one of the listed example mechanisms, I think it's pretty solid. "Key lock" is pretty airtight. Combination... well, they may consider a pushbutton not to be combination-ish enough, if you're thinking of the mechanical pushbutton variety.

(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

That having been said, I would ***LOVE*** to have a Robo-ish holster. Minus, of course, the huge gaping hole in my leg.

For practical reasons though, I'm thinking something made of fiberglass or some other cast material in the small of the back might be the best bet. Form fitting, won't rattle around, and a simple locking mechanism can be used.

weezil_boi
07-19-2008, 1:31 PM
wow, cool idea.

A lock box for a P-3AT would be the size of my blackberry holster and nealry un-noticeable!

I agree... if the open carry doesnt pan out as a common, then this idea is slick. Either way, it'd would be cool to have holsters that doubled as one side of a "clamshell" to lock up the pistol when going through school zones... kind of like a plastic molded lid that key locked in the trigger or something.

Man, if it get to it... maybe we can protest the nuttiness of all this by wearing big 'ol gun vaults on our hips :)

grammaton76
07-19-2008, 11:23 PM
I've also gotta say, I like the idea of a key lock for a few reasons.

#1... no rule says the key can't be IN the lock when you're going around with it. If your key is squat and magnetic, it's almost more like a handle than a key.

#2... no rule says it has to be a very complicated key. It can be a handcuff key, for that matter, on a string tied to the lockbox/holster.

Also, the other big thing is that this is neat for driving in a vehicle. I believe with open carry, you have to lock up the gun when driving. When you've got a lockbox holster, you have no extra step of locking up the gun before you start driving.

MudCamper
07-20-2008, 12:52 AM
If you drop the transparent idea, then all you are doing is carrying concealed. The locked case is just part of a 12026.x exemption. It does not automatically make it legal.

12025 makes carrying concealed illegal. 12026.1 exempts you from 12025 in a motor vehicle. 12026.2 exempts you from anywhere else (besides a motor vehicle, i.e. walking), only so long as you are going to/from one of the 20 exempted places in 12026.2.

grammaton76
07-20-2008, 1:20 AM
If you drop the transparent idea, then all you are doing is carrying concealed. The locked case is just part of a 12026.x exemption. It does not automatically make it legal.

Hmm, I thought locked case (regardless of transparency) was an exemption to pretty much everything. I may however be confusing that with exemption from the otherwise general prohibition against use in a motor vehicle (i.e. everything's illegal in a car, but locked is an exemption).

12025 makes carrying concealed illegal. 12026.1 exempts you from 12025 in a motor vehicle. 12026.2 exempts you from anywhere else (besides a motor vehicle, i.e. walking), only so long as you are going to/from one of the 20 exempted places in 12026.2.

Interesting, will have to do some more reading on these things with an eye towards how transparent / not transparent would affect things. On the surface of things, from what you're saying it looks like a non-transparent "lockbox holster" would be legal if and only if a specific-destination requirement were met in addition to everything else.

Meplat
07-20-2008, 2:19 AM
This is shier genious! Combo Lock, spring loaded flip top box. keep the combo punched in all except the last number. One fluid motion and your cocked and loaded. I love it!

gunsmith
07-20-2008, 4:20 PM
It would make for great conversation starters on the bus in SF

Theseus
07-20-2008, 5:07 PM
My understanding of the cars concealment language - the locked box would then make the weapon not fall under the definition of concealed because the understanding is that the weapon being locked in a case thus makes it unable to be concealed. The idea being that the lock box prevents it from being readably available for use as a firearm.

PC12025 (a)A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:

(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

This also does not state that it has to be opaque, transparent or otherwise. Locked is locked and thus unconcealed. The important thing to not is that you are still not allowed loaded.

To the locking mechanism. It could be a ring worn on the hand that contains a magnet or maybe a small computer or RF chip that can send the signal to the holster the authority to release the weapon.They are locking devices. . .

As for open carry? It isn't concealed if ANY PART OF THE WEAPON OR HOLSTER CAN BE EASILY SEEN. If it is a bely holster you are also in the clear.

Liberty1
07-20-2008, 6:17 PM
I admire your enthusiasm but have to correct a few things.

My understanding of the cars concealment language - the locked box would then make the weapon not fall under the definition of concealed...

If it is concealed, it is still concealed even when in a normal locked box. When it is also unloaded one is exempt in certain circumstances (12026 1a &2a PC among other sections not included)




This also does not state that it has to be opaque, transparent or otherwise. Locked is locked and thus unconcealed. .

see above



As for open carry? It isn't concealed if ANY PART OF THE WEAPON OR HOLSTER CAN BE EASILY SEEN. If it is a bely holster you are also in the clear.

Not true. Case law says if any part of the firearm is even partially concealed it is a 12025 violation. (People v Hale 1974) I don't agree with Hale but until it is overturned it is controling.

Arizona law is that if any part of the gun or 2" of the holster are showing it is not concealed.

Theseus
07-21-2008, 12:31 AM
I admire your enthusiasm but have to correct a few things.

If it is concealed, it is still concealed even when in a normal locked box. When it is also unloaded one is exempt in certain circumstances (12026 1a &2a PC among other sections not included)

see above

Not true. Case law says if any part of the firearm is even partially concealed it is a 12025 violation. (People v Hale 1974) I don't agree with Hale but until it is overturned it is controling.

Arizona law is that if any part of the gun or 2" of the holster are showing it is not concealed.

I am partially wrong. I am guilty of trying to argue off the top of my head instead of referring back to my own pamphlet.

You can not be charged with concealed in your car if it is in a fully enclosed container in your trunk, or is in a fully enclosed locked container.

FlyingPen
07-21-2008, 1:14 AM
We've been over this very idea a few times in Calguns ;)

If you do a search, you'll see some quality posts on why this idea won't fly.

Ding126
07-21-2008, 5:42 PM
I see a skit on SNL where Gun enthusiast walking around parks and malls with a metal lock box on their belt......

sorensen440
07-21-2008, 6:48 PM
very interesting
I'll take two :)

Codelphious
07-21-2008, 9:55 PM
It's been done before:

http://robotoys.com/MMRobocop.gif

BTW, Robocop's implementation looks a helluva lot cooler than a see-thru-plastic box.

grammaton76
07-22-2008, 2:35 PM
We've been over this very idea a few times in Calguns ;)

If you do a search, you'll see some quality posts on why this idea won't fly.

I've seen plenty of stuff about leather holsters, or non-fully-enclosed holsters, sometimes with a lock.

I haven't seen anything about fully-enclosed (and maybe transparent) holsters with a lock.