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View Full Version : just took delivery of a non-Rostered S&W revolver per 12133PC


bwiese
07-17-2008, 11:34 PM
Just took delivery after DROS of a beautiful S&W Model 14-3 factory single-action revolver, with labelled factory box.

Despite its outward appearance, this wheelgun requires separate user actions to operate - one for cocking, the other for firing. Given its capacity (6 rounds) and phyiscal size it is large enough to be dimensionally compliant and thus exempt from Rostering requirements under 12133PC.

In a very short time, a recipe will be verified and documented so that a fleet of non-Rostered S&W wheelguns can be modified while outside CA and then imported into CA as single-action revolvers (due to some uncertainty about prefatory wording in 12125PC Unsafe Handgun introduction). It is up to the owner, after he takes delivery, whether or not he wishes to convert his new S&W single-action revolver into a double-action revolver.

Recall that the 12133PC single-action exemption does NOT relate to overall design or architecture or style or 'design intent' of the revolver. The only thing that matters is that the moment before DROS (and poss. importation into CA for transfer), the gun exists in a single-action only configuration, and stays that way until the microsecond after pick-up 10 days later).

Due to caution about some phrasing in introductory wording in 12125PC, if the gun is outside CA, it should be rendered into 12133PC-compliant single-action status before entering CA. (Folks importing AR & AK pistols into by exploiting the 12133PC "single-shot exemption" already are aware of these cautions.) Note that there is no inferrable legal expression here of concepts relating to "permanence of design" or "original design intent" or "this doesn't look like a cowboy gun". You are indeed allowed to modify and remodify a handgun into any other legal configuration (i.e, non-AW, non-unconventional pistol, etc. - things like caliber changes, bbl changes, action type changes are all legal). Note also that the term 'single-action' revolver' is not defined: as long as separate cocking action and firing action occur, that's sufficient. A roomful of expert witnesses can come up with 'industry standard' definition.

To be 12133PC compliant per single-action exemption, a revolver must:

be able to hold 5 or more rounds;
have minimum 3" barrel length;
have min. 7.5" overall length measured parallel to bore when gun assembled;


If all the above are true, the gun is functionally equivalent to other Roster-exempt single-action guns - like a Ruger Blackhawk or Colt SAA.

This method can also be used to do Roster-free "remote transfers" of such guns in CA (without trying to deal with arranging "remote PPTs" btwn CA FFLs using 'gunshow transaction').

I'm sorry that nothing seems workable for the 2" to 2-3/4" snubbies unless there's a barrel change/swap, so those hoping for old Model 60s and the like will have to hold out some more...

Stay tuned for more info over the next week... apres moi, le deluge.

-Bill




[Hi, Alison: I know you can't send Iggy to kick my door down
any more, since he's now a Detachable Tool. But before you
ask another minion in your basement to do that (I know you're
reviewing DROS & voluntary reg paperwork on the single-shot ARs),
would you please have the courtesy to call Don & Jason? Please,
think of the kitties: I'm not worried about the door per se, just
don't want Pastel and Jenny to get out as they really aren't
street-smart.]

jdberger
07-17-2008, 11:46 PM
I think I just wet my pants!

An answer to the door kicking thing might to just get a paper mache' door. That way the foot goes right through!

ke6guj
07-17-2008, 11:50 PM
An answer to the door kicking thing might to just get a paper mache' door. That way the foot goes right through!

If SWAT were to attempt to battering ram the "door" and flew right through it and got hurt falling down, would that be considered a booby trap :D

bwiese
07-17-2008, 11:52 PM
I think I just wet my pants!

Yeah, it's so much easier to clean up wearing a unitard :)

leelaw
07-17-2008, 11:53 PM
Glad to hear you got it....

Now, man, PICTURES!

hoffmang
07-17-2008, 11:54 PM
I do find it quite amusing that Alison's own bill is now subject to much more precise readings...

What's really funny is even though she wrote it, she routinely forgets what it says. And it's also funny that handguns are currently the most protected firearms in America. Thanks Justice Scalia.

-Gene

bwiese
07-17-2008, 11:55 PM
Glad to hear you got it....
Now, man, PICTURES!

OK man, OK, but I have to tell you that expecting digital pix from a guy that makes digital cameras is a real stretch, y'know? Cobbler's kids & all that...

leelaw
07-17-2008, 11:56 PM
OK man, OK, but I have to tell you that expecting digital pix from a guy that makes digital cameras is a real stretch, y'know? Jerry's kids & all that...

Fixed it for ya... ;)

oaklander
07-18-2008, 12:04 AM
They'll be stopping by my Oakland house any time now. . .

:)

hoffmang
07-18-2008, 12:05 AM
They'll be stopping by my Oakland house any time now. . .

:)

You sure they have the guts to go into that kind of neighborhood? :43:

It's things like this that remind me why Calguns.net is so much fun!

-Gene

oaklander
07-18-2008, 12:08 AM
LOL - as long as they don't shoot my dog Sam, I'll be happy. . .

:chris:

You sure they have the guts to go into that kind of neighborhood? :43:

It's things like this that remind me why Calguns.net is so much fun!

-Gene

berto
07-18-2008, 12:09 AM
I like this. Thanks for getting this ball rolling.

bwiese
07-18-2008, 12:10 AM
I like this. Thanks for getting this ball rolling.

Hah, been way too long, sorry. I left the gun sitting at Kansas FFL since beginning of year because we kept playing phone tag about the fuzzy fax from the FFL... finally got it squared away before CFLC stuff kicked in.

grammaton76
07-18-2008, 3:55 AM
LOL - as long as they don't shoot my dog Sam, I'll be happy. . .

:chris:

You don't have to worry about that. However, due to some new ATF joint-training, you DO need to worry about them stomping on him...

Heatseeker
07-18-2008, 5:46 AM
bwiese, you never cease to amaze me! It's moments like this that I'm glad I found Calguns. It makes me feel proud and privileged to be a part of it.

Keep it up and ol' Allison is liable to pack it in...

ivanimal
07-18-2008, 6:28 AM
Bill do you know of antone making a single action 50 BMG revolver?:p

Thanks again, you mind is a thing of beauty.

trashman
07-18-2008, 6:40 AM
Great news and congrats Bill!! Looking forward to exercising your new recipe soon.

Too bad we can't get any S&W snubs in here; there are lots of Model 19 2.5"-ers calling my name.

But that still leaves a healthy menu to choose from!...

--Neill

Spelunker
07-18-2008, 6:41 AM
Your post about doing this quite a few months (a year?) ago was the first post I read on calguns after searching about how to get my first revolver that was "unsafe". I am glad it is finally about to start happening for all of us. Thanks Bweise

dfletcher
07-18-2008, 7:59 AM
Just took delivery after DROS of a beautiful S&W Model 14-3 factory single-action revolver, with labelled factory box.

Despite its outward appearance, this wheelgun requires separate user actions to operate - one for cocking, the other for firing. Given its capacity (6 rounds) and phyiscal size it is large enough to be dimensionally compliant and thus exempt from Rostering requirements under 12133PC.

apres moi, le deluge.

-Bill




[Hi, Alison: I know you can't send Iggy to kick my door down
any more, since he's now a Detachable Tool. But before you
ask another minion in your basement to do that (I know you're
reviewing DROS & voluntary reg paperwork on the single-shot ARs),
would you please have the courtesy to call Don & Jason? Please,
think of the kitties: I'm not worried about the door per se, just
don't want Pastel and Jenny to get out as they really aren't
street-smart.]

Bill - I know you bought that gun primarily to prove a point, I will of course be happy to swap with you my fully functional S & W Model 14. What - no deal? :rolleyes:

Actually, I think a Smith presentation case with a little area for the fitted DA hammer would be a nice touch, you could also get a Roy Jinks letter on it.

gose
07-18-2008, 8:36 AM
Bill do you know of antone making a single action 50 BMG revolver?:p
Thanks again, you mind is a thing of beauty.

Pfeifer Waffen in Austria makes a .600 NE revolver, maybe they could custom-build a BMG for you? ;)

Saigon1965
07-18-2008, 8:37 AM
Awesome, now lets start buying.

fun2none
07-18-2008, 8:56 AM
:clap: Thanks for leading the way.

Can a similar method work for 12133(b) ?

Hypothetically, it should be possible to purchase a non-rostered single shot pistol with barrel not less than 6" & overall length of at least 10.5" and converted to single shot by installing a block in the magazine well which (a) operates the slide lock, and (b) allows a single cartridge to be loaded through ejection port. The magazine catch would be replaced with a fastener to retain the block.

123133(b) just says "single-shot pistol" with no mention of the type of action.

bwiese
07-18-2008, 9:06 AM
Hypothetically, it should be possible to purchase a non-rostered single shot pistol with barrel not less than 6" & overall length of at least 10.5" and converted to single shot by installing a block in the magazine well which (a) operates the slide lock, and (b) allows a single cartridge to be loaded through ejection port. The magazine catch would be replaced with a fastener to retain the block.

123133(b) just says "single-shot pistol" with no mention of the type of action.


Correct, and this is already being used to bring in single-shot off-list AR pistols into CA.

(Providing these are are 'dimensionally compliant', as you mentioned.)

Single-shot status is created outside CA by using a single-shot "sled" from Brownell's that's typically used to shoot 80gr VLD 223 rounds which can't feed from AR mags.

This 'sled' is locked in place with any common CA-compliant mag lock kit. Once DROSed and after 10 day wait, such a single-shot AR pistol can be taken possession of and converted to any other legal (i.e, non-AW and not any other prohibited status) firearm.

bwiese
07-18-2008, 9:07 AM
Pfeifer Waffen in Austria makes a .600 NE revolver, maybe they could custom-build a BMG for you? ;)

50BMG handguns are illegal DDs under BATF standards, due to differing way caliber is measured on pistols (btwn grooves) vs. long guns (btwn lands).

swhatb
07-18-2008, 11:23 AM
tag... i see a bright future :D

IGOTDIRT4U
07-18-2008, 1:16 PM
Bill, interesting news (OP).

This may then answer a question I have had for awhile.

I want to buy a factory new Colt SAA. Like the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk, the SAA is not on the DOJ Roster. Yet I bought the Blackhawk new in CA. Can I buy a new Colt SAA in CA even if it is not on the list? Are single action revolvers not subject to the list?

Thanks for any help.

Matt C
07-18-2008, 1:22 PM
BRAVO!

bwiese
07-18-2008, 1:28 PM
This may then answer a question I have had for awhile.

I want to buy a factory new Colt SAA. Like the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk, the SAA is not on the DOJ Roster. Yet I bought the Blackhawk new in CA. Can I buy a new Colt SAA in CA even if it is not on the list? Are single action revolvers not subject to the list?

Single-action revolvers - which most assuredly covers most all Colt SAAs and all Ruger Blackhawk/Vaqueros etc. - are 'immune' from Rostering & drop test matters, etc.

The Roster only applies to handguns that are not exempt from the Roster (single actions & single shots that are dimensionally compliant and C&R, as well as lineal intrafamily and inheritance transfers).

Even if there's not one at a store, you can buy a Colt SAA out of state and have it shipped to your CA FFL without any Roster worries.

Just make sure that a single action revolver is 'dimensionally compliant':
(1) min. 3" barrel length; (unsure if some 'Sheriff's models' are shorter?)
(2) min 7.5" overall length measured parallel to bore when fully assembled;
(3) has a min. 5 shot capacity.

hiyabrad
04-04-2009, 10:09 PM
"In a very short time, a recipe will be verified and documented so that a fleet of non-Rostered S&W wheelguns can be modified while outside CA and then imported into CA as single-action revolvers "

What happened to the recipe?

pullnshoot25
04-04-2009, 10:38 PM
Reading Calguns is like watching Comedy Central on crack. The hilarity that ensues with each post is priceless.

lioneaglegriffin
04-04-2009, 11:16 PM
bwiese, you never cease to amaze me! It's moments like this that I'm glad I found Calguns. It makes me feel proud and privileged to be a part of it.

Keep it up and ol' Allison is liable to pack it in...

i would like to know who this allison?

Monte
04-04-2009, 11:28 PM
I absolutely love this kind of news. You guys are fantastic.

Congrats on the new baby, Bill. I'll bet she's a beauty. :thumbsup:

CapS
04-04-2009, 11:33 PM
What's really funny is even though she wrote it, she routinely forgets what it says.

-Gene
She wrote this?
That is just precious. My precious, I mean.

Recipe, please.

I have to say that I am so proud to be a member of this group. When I reflect that I've been involved in RKBA! for so many years and have only recently discovered CalGuns, it is a continual source of surprise & delight to me. A truly remarkable assemblage.

Surprise: :eek: Delight: :thumbsup: Remarkable: :TFH:

/Cap

Soldier415
04-05-2009, 12:10 AM
Good going my man!

You're footnote to Alison had me rolling :D

hoffmang
04-05-2009, 10:07 AM
We're holding off on the recipe only because there are even easier ways to bring any non-rostered handgun into the state (NRF, Non resident PPT).

-Gene

jdberger
04-05-2009, 11:16 AM
i would like to know who this allison?

She's our double-agent inside the BOF. A blessing to firearms (and civil rights) buffs statewide. She's our muse. She's the inventor of the OLL, the BB, the MM and the NERF. She's the inspiration behind AK/AR pistols. She's Harrott and Heller personified.

"who is this Allison?" you ask?

She's our angel....;)

Vin496
04-05-2009, 11:21 AM
I absolutely love this kind of news. You guys are fantastic.

Congrats on the new baby, Bill. I'll bet she's a beauty. :thumbsup:

Well being she's almost 1 now. Is she walking yet?

BigDogatPlay
04-05-2009, 12:43 PM
i would like to know who this allison?

She is Allison Merilees, a Deputy AG with California's DOJ. Runs the Bureau of Firearms, IIRC.

She is, as noted, the muse of several of our Calguns stalwarts. I'm sure she is a nice enough lady and probably a competent attorney, but in her attempts to try and narrow our rights she has opened so many other doors to legal exploitation by our side.

hoffmang
04-05-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm sure she is a nice enough lady and probably a competent attorney, but in her attempts to try and narrow our rights she has opened so many other doors to legal exploitation by our side.

She is a nice enough person. The second part however...

-Gene

Santa Cruz Armory
04-05-2009, 1:37 PM
You guys kill me!

Great job Bill. I love threads like this.

artherd
04-05-2009, 3:21 PM
...and probably a competent attorney...

I wouldn't want to have to pay her Professional Liability insurance bill...

RRangel
04-05-2009, 3:35 PM
LOL at CAL DOJ errors and omissions insurance.

510dat
04-05-2009, 6:22 PM
[Hi, Alison: I know you can't send Iggy to kick my door down
any more, since he's now a Detachable Tool. But before you
ask another minion in your basement to do that...

Forgive me for getting off topic, but what's the history behind this statement? I get the feeling that this wasn't just a random comment.

dwtt
04-05-2009, 6:39 PM
Forgive me for getting off topic, but what's the history behind this statement? I get the feeling that this wasn't just a random comment.

You can use the search feature and there's quite a few threads that will give a clue about this. Everyone will forgive you for being new to Calguns, but some people won't forgive you for not using the search button.

Liberty1
04-05-2009, 8:04 PM
She's our double-agent inside the BOF. A blessing to firearms (and civil rights) buffs statewide. She's our muse. She's the inventor of the OLL, the BB, the MM and the NERF. She's the inspiration behind AK/AR pistols. She's Harrott and Heller personified.

"who is this Allison?" you ask?

She's our angel....;)



:useless:

I spoke to her on the phone once (she called me;) really. It was work related). But wonder what she looks like. I hear she is a runner?

Bruce
04-05-2009, 8:41 PM
Where does the Legacy Sports "Bounty Hunter" fit into all of this? Is it 12133pc exempted too since it requires separate actions to cock and fire and has a capacity of six + one?


http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma/puma_bhunterm87shot.html

wildhawker
04-06-2009, 6:31 AM
:useless:

I spoke to her on the phone once (she called me;) really. It was work related). But wonder what she looks like. I hear she is a runner?

Just for you: http://www.wagv.org/images/DOJ.jpg
(at the podium)

WokMaster1
04-06-2009, 7:43 AM
Nice!!!!!:thumbsup:

Unitard groupbuy anyone? I think Dan can take the lead on this one...:43:

tgriffin
04-06-2009, 8:15 AM
Just for you: http://www.wagv.org/images/DOJ.jpg
(at the podium)

I always pictured her as a blonde for some reason.

dwtt
04-06-2009, 12:17 PM
Nice!!!!!:thumbsup:

Unitard groupbuy anyone? I think Dan can take the lead on this one...:43:

Uhhh... unitard? You assume we are all Ben Johnson sprinters.

quiet-wyatt
04-06-2009, 2:01 PM
We're holding off on the recipe only because there are even easier ways to bring any non-rostered handgun into the state (NRF, Non resident PPT).

-Gene

Non-resident PPT... That sounds good to me! :thumbsup:

Keep us updated!

Thanks Gene!

quiet-wyatt