PDA

View Full Version : Heller's application rejected!


MolonLabe2008
07-17-2008, 9:34 AM
From article:
District residents can start registering their guns today. But at least one very high profile application was already rejected. Dick Heller is the man who brought the lawsuit against the District's 32-year-old ban on handguns. He was among the first in line Thursday morning to apply for a handgun permit. But when he tried to register his semi-automatic weapon, he says he was rejected.

DC Rejects Handgun Application
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74036&catid=158

deleted by PC police
07-17-2008, 9:36 AM
sweet, another lawsuit.

matarlegoate
07-17-2008, 9:37 AM
Well that makes sense if you read the city's interpretation: He was registering a weapon that was "bottom loading" making it a "machine gun".:rolleyes:

WTH is wrong with those folks?

Lee F. Smith
07-17-2008, 9:37 AM
Just a lazy reporter...he inquired with his counsel in tow about the process. His weapons are with friends in another state.

BroncoBob
07-17-2008, 9:40 AM
WASHINGTON (WUSA) -- District residents can start registering their guns today. But at least one very high profile application was already rejected.

Dick Heller is the man who brought the lawsuit against the District's 32-year-old ban on handguns. He was among the first in line Thursday morning to apply for a handgun permit.

But when he tried to register his semi-automatic weapon, he says he was rejected. He says his gun has seven bullet clip. Heller says the City Council legislation allows weapons with fewer than eleven bullets in the clip. A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns.
Besides obtaining paperwork to buy new handguns, residents also can register firearms they've had illegally under a 180-day amnesty period.

Though residents will be allowed to begin applying for handgun permits, city officials have said the entire process could take weeks or months.

WTF............ Bottom loading a pistol is a machine gun? Good God are these people pushing it. looks like back to court.

PatriotnMore
07-17-2008, 9:43 AM
Well that makes sense if you read the city's interpretation: He was registering a weapon that was "bottom loading" making it a "machine gun".:rolleyes:

WTH is wrong with those folks?

They are officials who don't want citizens owning guns, and are going to make it as difficult as possible for them to comply, short of another lawsuit which specifically spells out how D.C is to handle this issue. I say good, let them force another lawsuit, which forces the courts to spell out the process, leaving no room for question, or delay.

tgriffin
07-17-2008, 9:44 AM
Well dont that just beat all. HMMMMM..... you'd think they'd know better by now.

Fate
07-17-2008, 9:46 AM
DC is making this too easy. :D

M1A Rifleman
07-17-2008, 9:47 AM
I recall the court specifically directed that DC allow him to register his gun and keep it at home, and this decision did not specify that it had to be a certain type. This sounds like another suite is on its way. :D

nic
07-17-2008, 9:47 AM
I think I smell yet another smackdown brewing.

MolonLabe2008
07-17-2008, 9:48 AM
Well, it looks like there is a market for top loading weapons in DC.:rolleyes:

.22guy
07-17-2008, 9:52 AM
I guess we should have known they wouldn't roll over and make this easy. Talk about sore losers.....

CavTrooper
07-17-2008, 9:52 AM
I can see it now... "This may not be the right case/right time/right person to challenge this in court. We need to carefully choose our case to ensure the appropritate outcome...blah, blah, blah.... Especially since the narrow margin of victory....blah,blah,blah..." It could be years before this gets settled, but I hope and pray it isn't!

PatriotnMore
07-17-2008, 10:05 AM
I guess we should have known they wouldn't roll over and make this easy. Talk about sore losers.....

I see the same thing happening here in River City, with challenges in the 9th.

AJAX22
07-17-2008, 10:07 AM
So.... he already had a 1911.... he goes to apply for the registration/amnesty and they deny him?

So he's admitted to having an illegal 'machine gun' pistol.... are they going to come after him now?

how does the mandated registration without amnesty square with a right against self incrimination?

Did they take his firearm away?

PolishMike
07-17-2008, 10:11 AM
So.... he already had a 1911.... he goes to apply for the registration/amnesty and they deny him?

So he's admitted to having an illegal 'machine gun' pistol.... are they going to come after him now?

how does the mandated registration without amnesty square with a right against self incrimination?

Did they take his firearm away?


here are the amnesty regs.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/final-dc-gun-amnesty-7-16-08.pdf

cybersurveyor
07-17-2008, 10:26 AM
Shouldn't somebody be held in Contempt? What does it take to enforce a decision by the highest court in the Land? Making Heller wait another year or more, I think we should grant the Mayor a speedy trial of his own...

pwall
07-17-2008, 10:35 AM
He says his gun has seven bullet clip. Heller says the City Council legislation allows weapons with fewer than eleven bullets in the clip.

clip huh?

berto
07-17-2008, 10:42 AM
If the local DC politicos had any kind of clue DC wouldn't have half the problems it does.

This isn't surprising. The only thing they about guns is that they don't like them.

383green
07-17-2008, 10:46 AM
Cool. DC's new laws were bad enough, but by blatantly violating a direct command from SCOTUS, they're really setting themselves up for a reaming. At this point, does Heller even need to file suit in order for SCOTUS to say "We told you to do X, and you did the exact opposite of X. Go get me my belt."?

p7m8jg
07-17-2008, 10:47 AM
Well that makes sense if you read the city's interpretation: He was registering a weapon that was "bottom loading" making it a "machine gun".:rolleyes:

WTH is wrong with those folks?

C'mon! Read the location, its D.C.! They have to leave their brains at the border....outside the city limits...:)

jammer2k
07-17-2008, 10:48 AM
clip huh?

at least they didn't call it an 'fully automatic assault 1911 revolver' :D

6172crew
07-17-2008, 10:54 AM
DC is making this too easy. :D

Those guys could wreck a junkyard.:)

1911su16b870
07-17-2008, 10:59 AM
Isn't now the time for Heller to file a mega-million civil rights violation law suit against DC and maybe they'll start to understand the 2nd is an individual right?

gotgunz
07-17-2008, 11:00 AM
Just a lazy reporter...he inquired with his counsel in tow about the process. His weapons are with friends in another state.

Not to threadjack but, ummmmmm

Didn't you die last week?

tgriffin
07-17-2008, 11:10 AM
^ I wouldnt doubt it. I'd be very surprised if he wasn't there represented by counsel. I'm suspecting this was forseen LONG in advance of this morning.

Shane916
07-17-2008, 11:10 AM
Well since they are not allowing the "bottom loading" handguns.. then everyone should go out and buy one of these...

http://www.fmft.net/Sub%20Machine%20Gun%20Sten%20Gun%20Mark%202.jpg

Saigon1965
07-17-2008, 11:15 AM
Well since they are not allowing the "bottom loading" handguns.. then everyone should go out and buy one of these...

http://www.fmft.net/Sub%20Machine%20Gun%20Sten%20Gun%20Mark%202.jpg


LOL. :party:

berto
07-17-2008, 11:15 AM
Cool. DC's new laws were bad enough, but by blatantly violating a direct command from SCOTUS, they're really setting themselves up for a reaming. At this point, does Heller even need to file suit in order for SCOTUS to say "We told you to do X, and you did the exact opposite of X. Go get me my belt."?

The Supreme Court doesn't possess the power to enforce its decisions. Enforcement is left to the other branches of government. President Jackson ignored one of their decisions and didn't face any consequences and Ike had to send the 101st Airborne to integrate schools in Little Rock after the Arkansas governor refused.

AEC1
07-17-2008, 11:16 AM
I to smell a big lawsuit. To get hos rights and also to make him a very wealthy man, I say we make him the Jessie Jackson of the gun world!!!

mymonkeyman
07-17-2008, 11:19 AM
The Supreme Court doesn't possess the power to enforce its decisions. Enforcement is left to the other branches of government. President Jackson ignored one of their decisions and didn't face any consequences and Ike had to send the 101st Airborne to integrate schools in Little Rock after the Arkansas governor refused.

If the federal courts really wanted to, they could issue an arrest warrant to the US marshals and put the DC mayor and council in jail indefinitely until they complied. Or more likely they could fine the city $1,000,000 a day.

yellowfin
07-17-2008, 11:22 AM
^ Now that's more like it!

CCWFacts
07-17-2008, 11:30 AM
If the federal courts really wanted to, they could issue an arrest warrant to the US marshals and put the DC mayor and council in jail indefinitely until they complied. Or more likely they could fine the city $1,000,000 a day.

Either way would be cool with me!

spencerhut
07-17-2008, 11:40 AM
I really hope he tried to register a 1911. How much more common can a gun get in the USA? And just how stupid can the DC mayor be?

braskin
07-17-2008, 11:41 AM
Dick Heller knew exactly what would happen when he tried to register a semi-auto handgun this morning! :D

Californio
07-17-2008, 11:57 AM
If the federal courts really wanted to, they could issue an arrest warrant to the US marshals and put the DC mayor and council in jail indefinitely until they complied. Or more likely they could fine the city $1,000,000 a day.

Now we are talking! Someone has to take the bull by the horns and put it on the ground.

If DC gets away with this Pure Contempt of the American Judicial System without a timely smack down we are all toast because it will be done in every liberal State as well, this is truly a line in the sand.

bwiese
07-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Dick Heller knew exactly what would happen
when he tried to register a semi-auto handgun this morning! :D

So do his lawyers :)

I couldn't imagine DC was stupid enough to step into this, esp post-Heller.

It appears now that they don't care about the outcomes, and just want the political credit & emotional self-validation for "fighting the fight" - even back when Fenty "took the bait".

DC gun politics gives me the image of crazed rabid dogs with a piece of meat hung behind a barbed wire fence, and the dogs tearing themselves to death on the fence to even get near the meat.

nhanson
07-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Anybody running a pool on exactly when Heller will file law suit 2?

Clearly, this is orchestrated to take another pound out of DC. I'm assuming they already had the motion drawn up and ready to file!......the sooner the better.

Enjoy

IGOTDIRT4U
07-17-2008, 12:10 PM
The Supreme Court doesn't possess the power to enforce its decisions. Enforcement is left to the other branches of government. President Jackson ignored one of their decisions and didn't face any consequences and Ike had to send the 101st Airborne to integrate schools in Little Rock after the Arkansas governor refused.

Correct. As there is nowhere to appeal from in regard to the SC, the District Court would uphold the terms of any found injunctive relief, allowing further appeals on THAT issue if needed. Heller may also bring a later, seperate civil action if the terms fit (At this point I do not think they do).

It should be noted that Heller did not order DC to register Heller's gun(s) in a manner they chose, but simply to register them within a reasonable period of time. The semi-auto thing is going to go down in flames.

"According to well-established principles of equity, a
plaintiff seeking a permanent injunction must satisfy a
four-factor test before a court may grant such relief. A
plaintiff must demonstrate: (1) that it has suffered an
irreparable injury; (2) that remedies available at law, such
as monetary damages, are inadequate to compensate for
that injury; (3) that, considering the balance of hardships
between the plaintiff and defendant, a remedy in equity is
warranted; and (4) that the public interest would not be
disserved by a permanent injunction. See, e.g., Weinberger
v. Romero-Barcelo, 456 U. S. 305, 311–313 (1982); Amoco
Production Co. v. Gambell, 480 U. S. 531, 542 (1987). The
decision to grant or deny permanent injunctive relief is an
act of equitable discretion by the district court, reviewable
on appeal for abuse of discretion."

Librarian
07-17-2008, 12:11 PM
If the federal courts really wanted to, they could issue an arrest warrant to the US marshals and put the DC mayor and council in jail indefinitely until they complied. Or more likely they could fine the city $1,000,000 a day.
I'd prefer the arrest (most likely for contempt). Who provides that million bucks will not be the politicians...

Probably time to take home rule away from DC; maybe they can try again in the next century. The time Congress would spend mis-managing DC would come out of their time spent mis-managing the whole country. I see that as a net win for both DC and the US.

Hans Gruber
07-17-2008, 12:12 PM
If they were smart they would have found a way to approve his application or only start enforcing the "machine gun" bit in a few days weeks after Heller and others came through. Now they just stepped in a huge bear trap.

My question, if the new DC law gets smacked down in court, how high does it have to go in the system in order for it to set a precedent against bans by feature rather than function? "loaded from the bottom" is about as asinine as pistol grip = AW = ban here in Cali.

Liberty1
07-17-2008, 12:27 PM
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/07/dick_heller_sho.php

UPDATE: I've heard that Heller will be back to register a revolver tomorrow.

Gene,

Time to fly to DC and try to do a non-resident registration!:D

383green
07-17-2008, 12:32 PM
Won't it hurt his ability to file a new suit based on the M1911 permit rejection if they issue him a permit for a revolver?

AJAX22
07-17-2008, 12:36 PM
Won't it hurt his ability to file a new suit based on the M1911 permit rejection if they issue him a permit for a revolver?

I think his legal team is sharp enough that they won't be filing for a revolver permit in the interim ;)

tiki
07-17-2008, 12:39 PM
Anybody running a pool on exactly when Heller will file law suit 2?

Clearly, this is orchestrated to take another pound out of DC. I'm assuming they already had the motion drawn up and ready to file!......the sooner the better.

Enjoy

I'm quite certain the documents have already been drawn and going down to register was just the step needed to have cause to sue.

Liberty1
07-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Won't it hurt his ability to file a new suit based on the M1911 permit rejection if they issue him a permit for a revolver?

So if they give you a license to buy a magazine they can deny one for a book? ;)

PolishMike
07-17-2008, 12:50 PM
So if they give you a license to buy a magazine they can deny one for a book? ;)

If there is a limit of 1 piece of literature for 90 days as there is with handguns in DC now then yes, they can

CCWFacts
07-17-2008, 1:36 PM
Time to fly to DC and try to do a non-resident registration!:D

That's a great idea! The 2A is an individual right (ah, I love saying that, I couldn't say that without qualification a few weeks ago) so it applies to all US residents, in every part of the US, so they need to have a non-burdensome opportunity for non-DC-residents to possess guns there.

MudCamper
07-17-2008, 2:01 PM
Is there such a crime as being in contempt of the United States Supreme Court? Does the court have any teeth with which to enforce it's rulings?

Subvertz
07-17-2008, 2:10 PM
I wonder if Brady will pull Fenty and DC aside and tell them that they are making the rest of the anti's look bad?

gazzavc
07-17-2008, 2:13 PM
If bottom loading is no good, how about a top loader....http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc/editingjunk/bren.gif

savageevo
07-17-2008, 2:25 PM
dammit here we go again

ibanezfoo
07-17-2008, 2:30 PM
Well, it looks like there is a market for top loading weapons in DC.:rolleyes:

Or Sten clones :)

-Bryan

ibanezfoo
07-17-2008, 2:32 PM
Is there such a crime as being in contempt of the United States Supreme Court? Does the court have any teeth with which to enforce it's rulings?

I kinda think that was part of the intent of the 2nd Amendment to begin with......................................... Just sayin'


-Bryan

Liberty1
07-17-2008, 2:49 PM
I wonder if Brady will pull Fenty and DC aside and tell them that they are making the rest of the anti's look bad?

No this is part of their plan, fight tooth and nail until they can get a different USSC to reverse Heller. We'll see if they can afford the losses. After all its only our money.

I expect California to do the same when they re-write laws after any are struck down post Heller. For instance if 12031 is struck down (mags have to be separate from firearm), I expect them to pass a law saying no round in the chamber (like UT's loaded prohibited law) and then the vicious litigation cycle starts all over again. Same with the school zone law. Once a 1000' prohibition is overturned they'll pass a 999' foot law:mad:.

jacques
07-17-2008, 2:56 PM
When do these become civil rights violations and the feds step in and start arresting people?

heavyrecoil
07-17-2008, 3:05 PM
...sounds like Kel-Tec needs to start making the Grendel P-10 again.

Glock22Fan
07-17-2008, 3:12 PM
...sounds like Kel-Tec needs to start making the Grendel P-10 again.


I've got one; wonder what it is worth in D.C.?

truthseeker
07-17-2008, 3:14 PM
Same with the school zone law. Once a 1000' prohibition is overturned they'll pass a 999' foot law:mad:.

And this is what I don't understand about Judges or Politicians. If the 1000' was overturned then the final decision should state what the amount of feet should be in black and white, not just rule it is overturned. Then more people have to spend more money and taxpayer dollars to set a specified length. If I was a judge I would kill 2 birds with one stone and spell out what the legal limit for feet from a school zone should be to ensure that there would be no further need for lawsuits concerning that matter.

GuyW
07-17-2008, 3:34 PM
And this is what I don't understand about Judges or Politicians. If the 1000' was overturned then the final decision should state what the amount of feet should be in black and white, not just rule it is overturned. Then more people have to spend more money and taxpayer dollars to set a specified length. If I was a judge I would kill 2 birds with one stone and spell out what the legal limit for feet from a school zone should be to ensure that there would be no further need for lawsuits concerning that matter.

As I understand it, Judges can share a philosophy or analysis method about how to determine X that passes Constitutional or legal muster, but giving an exact answer is legislating, not judging...

MrBi11
07-17-2008, 4:10 PM
repost... sorry

tiki
07-17-2008, 4:12 PM
:dupe:

JimmyD
07-17-2008, 4:17 PM
what if you shoot the gun sideways like a gangsta?

Hopi
07-17-2008, 4:20 PM
Is there such a crime as being in contempt of the United States Supreme Court? Does the court have any teeth with which to enforce it's rulings?

I kinda think that was part of the intent of the 2nd Amendment to begin
with......................................... Just sayin'


-Bryan

Amen.

chris
07-17-2008, 4:21 PM
Well that makes sense if you read the city's interpretation: He was registering a weapon that was "bottom loading" making it a "machine gun".:rolleyes:

WTH is wrong with those folks?

that makes about as much sense as Iggy's interpration of a trigger group!

Gray Peterson
07-17-2008, 4:22 PM
A few things.

First, Heller and the rest of the plaintiffs did not challenge the "machine gun 12 round" thing. This was intentionally as they wanted the cleanest case possible.

Second, as far as I know, by the rules of the US court system, this got remanded down to the lower court. So the Gura could file further motions to enforce the Supreme Court decision and the US Court of Appeals.

GuyW
07-17-2008, 4:27 PM
Time for a federal Judge to take control of DC and bring in the federal troops - it obviously can't govern itself, and is engaged in a conspiracy to violate fundamental Constitutional rights of citizen residents....

CSACANNONEER
07-17-2008, 4:28 PM
I see a big market for broomhandles!

dfletcher
07-17-2008, 4:29 PM
So do his lawyers :)

I couldn't imagine DC was stupid enough to step into this, esp post-Heller.
It appears now that they don't care about the outcomes, and just want the political credit & emotional self-validation for "fighting the fight" - even back when Fenty "took the bait".

DC gun politics gives me the image of crazed rabid dogs with a piece of meat hung behind a barbed wire fence, and the dogs tearing themselves to death on the fence to even get near the meat.

Perhaps the term "Hobson's Choice" can be replaced by the phrase "Fenty's Choice". And yes, I think this is now about positioning themselves for the blame game to come.

Hopi
07-17-2008, 4:32 PM
I see a big market for broomhandles!

and break-open fixed-magazine AR pistols....with a fixed-10 round magazine, loaded from the top, we have the perfect DC personal defense handgun.

sunborder
07-17-2008, 4:49 PM
But wouldn't those pistols have to be built on off-list receivers?

j/k

Subvertz
07-17-2008, 4:59 PM
Nope, cali holds the patent on the "list"

dasmi
07-17-2008, 5:01 PM
I wonder if Mr. Heller's lawyers are salivating at this point.

Subvertz
07-17-2008, 5:17 PM
No, they're saying "I love it when a plan comes together!"

Glock22Fan
07-17-2008, 5:25 PM
But wouldn't those pistols have to be built on off-list receivers?

j/k


Only in California, Heller would be fine in D.C.

hoffmang
07-17-2008, 5:30 PM
First, here is the DC Code section that's causing this:

(10) “Machine gun” means any firearm which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily converted or restored to shoot:

(A) Automatically, more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger;

(B) Semiautomatically, more than 12 shots without manual reloading.


Don't expect this to be challenged out of the remand. This will instead be a race between congress stripping DC's home rule authority to regulate guns and our side's legal folks to challenge the semiautomatic restriction. That's why Heller's 1911 was attempted to be registered today. Note that Heller has a storage place for his guns outside of the District so he's breaking no laws.

Rumor is that Congress thinks they can strip DC first and that's where the current bet is, but I know for a fact that DC will face pain if that doesn't happen or they don't streamline their law and fix the semiauto issue.

-Gene

40caldeserteagle
07-17-2008, 5:43 PM
If only this (http://www.topglock.com/images/hnsbig.jpg) was a real product.

David F.

Guntech
07-17-2008, 5:44 PM
Saying a semi or even fully auto Ar-15 is a machine gun is ignorant, but a pistol?

CHS
07-17-2008, 5:50 PM
Saying a semi or even fully auto Ar-15 is a machine gun is ignorant, but a pistol?

Um..

A fully-auto AR15 is, in fact, a machinegun by federal law. There are also actual full-auto pistols that are machineguns.

The problem here is that DC's 2nd definition of a machinegun is flat out wrong.

Moonclip
07-17-2008, 5:51 PM
I see a big market for broomhandles!

I was just going to post that! I handled one of them today also. Or maybe a Grendel P10.

Glock22Fan
07-17-2008, 6:10 PM
. . . This will instead be a race between congress stripping DC's home rule authority to regulate guns and our side's legal folks to challenge the semiautomatic restriction. . . . -Gene

What's this about Congress stripping DC's home rule authority? Is this real? I've heard a couple of rumors but thought it was pie in the sky wishfull thinking. But from Gene, I have to take it more seriously.

Do I take it that it's better for our side for us to get a win to establish precedents than let it slide away because Congress beat us to it?

bwiese
07-17-2008, 6:16 PM
Do I take it that it's better for our side for us to get a win to establish precedents than let it slide away because Congress beat us to it?


Yes, of course it's better for us, but there's a lotta reasons Congress doesn't like DC - gun law issues are just one of many issues.

Remember, Congress has to *live* there for at least part of the year. So it's clear to many that whatever's happening ain't working:
"There is a sort of an unwritten code in Washington, among
the underworld and the hustlers and these other guys that I am their friend."

- Marion Barry, 26 Mar '02, Washington Post


"Outside of the killings, DC has one of the lowest crime rates
in the country."

- Marion Barry, 24 Mar '89, USA Today

.

WokMaster1
07-17-2008, 6:57 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading. Can someone check & see if Fenty was dropped on his head as a baby? Something is really wrong with this guy. Oh! Check the Police Chief, too. This looks like New Orleans/Katrina Part 2.

Who is holding the leash on the other end? I wonder if any of the Democrats have anything to do with this guy or is he just a rogue cannon running around much to the dismay of the party leadership.

CrippledPidgeon
07-17-2008, 6:59 PM
But when he tried to register his semi-automatic weapon, he says he was rejected. He says his gun has seven bullet clip. Heller says the City Council legislation allows weapons with fewer than eleven bullets in the clip. A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns.
WTF............ Bottom loading a pistol is a machine gun? Good God are these people pushing it. looks like back to court.

Oh come on people. Everyone knows that the M1911 is NOT a bottom loading machine gun. They're just holding it wrong.

http://www.recoilmag.com/news/grfx/new_gangsta_trend_0902orgB.jpg


http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/First.jpg

Nope. Not bottom loading. Looks fine to me.