PDA

View Full Version : Do I need a large or small primer pocket uniformer for .308?


Solidsnake87
07-16-2008, 5:37 PM
Do I need a large or small primer pocket uniformer for .308?

jandmtv
07-16-2008, 5:39 PM
large, but why dont you buy the possum hollow uniformer? one side is for large, one side is for small.

here is a link, http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=445053&t=11082005

the cutters are fully adjustable for length individually, and they are carbide, so they will last forever.

Jicko
07-16-2008, 5:40 PM
Do I need a large or small primer pocket uniformer for .308?

Do you use LARGE rifle primers or SMALL rifle primers for your .308?

That would be your answer to your question too.

Solidsnake87
07-16-2008, 6:03 PM
I do not know, thats why I'm asking. I was told to purchase a primer pocket uniformer--Never the size.

scfast
07-16-2008, 6:11 PM
Large

Pthfndr
07-16-2008, 8:33 PM
Do I need a large or small primer pocket uniformer for .308?

You need to buy a reloading manual and READ IT first.

jandmtv
07-16-2008, 8:53 PM
while you are at it, pick up one of these too

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=729748&t=11082005

Solidsnake87
07-16-2008, 9:19 PM
I purchased a sinclair flash hole deburring tool.

An NRA high power shoot was kind enough to invite me over and show me the main points of reloading and gave me a list of equipment to get. We did not go through brass prep but he detailed the importance of the pocket uniformers and so forth. He just never mentioned which size applied to .308. I have the Sierra reloading manual on order.

PistolPete75
07-16-2008, 9:33 PM
no need for a primer pocket uniformer. it's a waste of money. if you have good brass that shouldn't be an issue. if anything save up money for a giraud trimmer. i wish i had that. that thing does everything at once, trims, deburs, and champhers. only thing that you might want to do is clean the primer pockets, that's pretty much all you should do.

jandmtv
07-16-2008, 9:53 PM
no need for a primer pocket uniformer. it's a waste of money. if you have good brass that shouldn't be an issue. if anything save up money for a giraud trimmer. i wish i had that. that thing does everything at once, trims, deburs, and champhers. only thing that you might want to do is clean the primer pockets, that's pretty much all you should do.

A primer pocket uniformer doubles as great primer pocket cleaner too. And uniforming primer pockets has never hurt accuracy, the opposite of that statement can not be said.

Solidsnake87
07-16-2008, 10:46 PM
Dude, after i saw the ginormous wall of trophies and winnings, I'm more inclined to trust the NRA high power shooter. lol.

bohoki
07-16-2008, 11:07 PM
this wouldnt be a bad idea though

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=467111

rksimple
07-17-2008, 6:46 AM
Dude, after i saw the ginormous wall of trophies and winnings, I'm more inclined to trust the NRA high power shooter. lol.

Ask 10 different high power guys with ginormous walls of trophies how to reload, and you'll probably get 10 different ways to do it.

30Cal
07-17-2008, 8:03 AM
Dude, after i saw the ginormous wall of trophies and winnings, I'm more inclined to trust the NRA high power shooter. lol.

Cutting pockets probably didn't earn him one single point. It's a realy PITA (as is any case prep task that involves a cutter) and I've seen good data which shows it's benefits are zilch at 200yds.

If you're shooting a gasgun and want to buy a little extra insurance against slamfire, then go right ahead. Make sure your cutter (and this goes for any other sort of cutter you might be tempted to apply) can be spun by a drill/drill press/other working motor you have in your possession.

Otherwise, buy decent brass (win or LC) and save yourself a lot of effort spent for pretty much zero gain.

jandmtv
07-17-2008, 10:13 AM
Uniforming pockets with the Possum Hollow uniformer takes about 3-4seconds per case. I just chuck the cutter on my drill and go at it. I did the same thing with the Lyman flash hole deburring tool. With a drill, its pretty quick and painless.

30Cal
07-17-2008, 10:58 AM
Uniforming pockets with the Possum Hollow uniformer takes about 3-4seconds per case. I just chuck the cutter on my drill and go at it. I did the same thing with the Lyman flash hole deburring tool. With a drill, its pretty quick and painless.

Depends on how many cases you need to run through really. 100 isn't all that bad, even if you make the mistake of doing them by hand. 500+ cases and you start to ask whether it's worthwhile.

I generally work with batches of 1000-2500 pieces of brass.

Beelzy
07-17-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't use a pocket uniformer either. I believe in removing as little brass
from a case as possible, especially when it comes to a primer pocket.
They get loose over time anyway, no need to rush the process.

Timberwolf
07-17-2008, 11:52 AM
I uniform primer pockets everytime I prime - chuck the cutter in my drill and here we go. I have the depth set so I never go deeper than wanted. Its important to have a uniform pocket to square the primer and important to clean the pocket to get uniform ignition (ergo low ES and SD = reduced verticle stringing when ya shootin a fer peice) But to each his own (as I dust my trophies and plaques)

Solidsnake87
07-17-2008, 12:20 PM
Cutting pockets probably didn't earn him one single point. It's a realy PITA (as is any case prep task that involves a cutter) and I've seen good data which shows it's benefits are zilch at 200yds.

I'm not shooting out to 200. I'm shooting out to 1000.

Beelzy
07-17-2008, 12:49 PM
LOL! At 1000yds, I would think wind doping would be far more important than
pocket uniforming. :33:

rksimple
07-17-2008, 1:01 PM
LOL! At 1000yds, I would think wind doping would be far more important than
pocket uniforming. :33:

At 1k, time spent on the range would be more beneficial than performing trivial tasks behind a bench. Once you've burned up a few barrels and you're at the top of your game, then the little things make a difference.

Timberwolf
07-17-2008, 1:02 PM
LOL! At 1000yds, I would think wind doping would be far more important than
pocket uniforming. :33:

both are equally important - at 1K low ES and SD are essentail unless you want a nice verticle string - the key to low ES and SD is, amoung other things, uniform ignition.

From 100 to 600 it matter little but that and beyond it comes into play.

m1match
07-17-2008, 2:29 PM
If I were you, I'd make an honest evaluation of my skills and ask if the possible extra work in primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburring is going to give any meaningful return. In my opinion you have to be a Master or High Master class long range shooter before you'd see a difference in scores. I shoot NRA Highpower out to 600 and have a Master classification. I don't uniform primer pockets or debur flashholes and I load my rounds progressively through a Dillon 550 with metered powder loads and I don't see that the ammo is holding my scores back.

Ahhnother8
07-18-2008, 11:48 AM
Ask 10 different high power guys with ginormous walls of trophies how to reload, and you'll probably get 10 different ways to do it.

True story!! But the other 9 of them are competing for second place or worse!!! :p

Does cutting primer pockets help? Maybe
Does cutting primer pockets hurt? No

If it keeps just one X from being a 10, or one 10 from being a 9, it was worth it. We are talking about .01" or maybe even .001".

Agreed, range time is critical and precious. With that said, it is not generally a trade-off of range time -vs- reloading time. Reloading can be done in small time segments, at night, and when ranges are not available. Load the best ammo you can, so when at the range you don't question your ammo or rifle. It is a HUGE waste of time to finally get out to the range and shoot marginal ammo. You learn almost nothing about: your ammo, your rifle, your shooting ability, your wind reading skills, etc. Why EXACTLY did that bullet impact where it did?!

I have no problem with people who don't: weight sort and prep brass, weight sort bullets, weigh powder charges, and ammo test. It just makes them SO much easier to defeat on the range. We shoot with a tough crowd at Sac Valley. Present at last weekends matches were the 2008 State Champions for: Palma, Fullbore, Highpower Match Rifle, and Highpower Service Rifle. Also had team members from the U.S. Veterans Team and the U.S. Palma Team, and the #3 shooter in the Long-Range World Championships.

Bottom line - cutting primer pockets never HURTS anything.

Lane

30Cal
07-18-2008, 12:10 PM
True story!! But the other 9 of them are competing for second place or worse!!! :p

Does cutting primer pockets help? Maybe
Does cutting primer pockets hurt? No

If it keeps just one X from being a 10, or one 10 from being a 9, it was worth it. We are talking about .01" or maybe even .001".

Agreed, range time is critical and precious. With that said, it is not generally a trade-off of range time -vs- reloading time. Reloading can be done in small time segments, at night, and when ranges are not available. Load the best ammo you can, so when at the range you don't question your ammo or rifle. It is a HUGE waste of time to finally get out to the range and shoot marginal ammo. You learn almost nothing about: your ammo, your rifle, your shooting ability, your wind reading skills, etc. Why EXACTLY did that bullet impact where it did?!

I have no problem with people who don't: weight sort and prep brass, weight sort bullets, weigh powder charges, and ammo test. It just makes them SO much easier to defeat on the range. We shoot with a tough crowd at Sac Valley. Present at last weekends matches were the 2008 State Champions for: Palma, Fullbore, Highpower Match Rifle, and Highpower Service Rifle. Also had team members from the U.S. Veterans Team and the U.S. Palma Team, and the #3 shooter in the Long-Range World Championships.

Bottom line - cutting primer pockets never HURTS anything.

Lane

I asked Jim O' one time what he does. His response was that he just pulls the blue handle. Even for 600yds? Yep. This was WRT to service rifle. I don't know if he does the same for long range, but it wouldn't surprise me.

To each his own. The match is won between the earmuffs. If you need to spend time at the reloading bench to get your mental right, then so be it.

rksimple
07-18-2008, 12:17 PM
True story!! But the other 9 of them are competing for second place or worse!!! :p

Does cutting primer pockets help? Maybe
Does cutting primer pockets hurt? No

If it keeps just one X from being a 10, or one 10 from being a 9, it was worth it. We are talking about .01" or maybe even .001".

Agreed, range time is critical and precious. With that said, it is not generally a trade-off of range time -vs- reloading time. Reloading can be done in small time segments, at night, and when ranges are not available. Load the best ammo you can, so when at the range you don't question your ammo or rifle. It is a HUGE waste of time to finally get out to the range and shoot marginal ammo. You learn almost nothing about: your ammo, your rifle, your shooting ability, your wind reading skills, etc. Why EXACTLY did that bullet impact where it did?!

I have no problem with people who don't: weight sort and prep brass, weight sort bullets, weigh powder charges, and ammo test. It just makes them SO much easier to defeat on the range. We shoot with a tough crowd at Sac Valley. Present at last weekends matches were the 2008 State Champions for: Palma, Fullbore, Highpower Match Rifle, and Highpower Service Rifle. Also had team members from the U.S. Veterans Team and the U.S. Palma Team, and the #3 shooter in the Long-Range World Championships.

Bottom line - cutting primer pockets never HURTS anything.

Lane

I have a long way to go before uniforming primer pockets is holding my scores back. I think some people need to realize that. Not saying it wont help, but where do you draw the line? Weight sort everything into .5 grain batches? Measure each bullet base to ojive? Turn necks? Trim or point meplats? I've seen a lot of guys do all of that and get beat by the guy that shot factory. Doesn't happen all the time, but then again, the guys who brass prep like crazy are usually the best trigger pullers anyway.

Pthfndr
07-18-2008, 4:44 PM
I have a long way to go before uniforming primer pockets is holding my scores back. I think some people need to realize that. Not saying it wont help, but where do you draw the line?

When the level of your competition dictates that the rifle and ammo be capable of 1/4 moa accuracy out to 1000 yards, for 12 to 22 shots in as many minutes, and the shooter be capable of a sub 1/2 moa hold for the same. Palma matches are often won on X count, not cleans.

Lane is at that level. Me, not so much. Last Sunday Lane only dropped 1 point out of 60 shots fired for record in a prone match, with better than 50% X count. I scored 2 of his strings of fire and I would say that 75% or more of his shots were inside 1 moa.

rksimple
07-18-2008, 7:36 PM
When the level of your competition dictates that the rifle and ammo be capable of 1/4 moa accuracy out to 1000 yards, for 12 to 22 shots in as many minutes, and the shooter be capable of a sub 1/2 moa hold for the same. Palma matches are often won on X count, not cleans.

Lane is at that level. Me, not so much. Last Sunday Lane only dropped 1 point out of 60 shots fired for record in a prone match, with better than 50% X count. I scored 2 of his strings of fire and I would say that 75% or more of his shots were inside 1 moa.

I agree completely. If I had that level of skill, my reloading practices may be much different.

Ahhnother8
07-18-2008, 8:22 PM
Thanks Pthfndr, but don't sell yourself short. If you shot a gun made this century, it would help!! :eek: I believe that many people sell themselves short on trigger pulling ability. It isn't that difficult.

Many of the brass prep and loading "tricks" are not expensive, just time consuming. But range time is expensive AND time consuming. As previously stated, "to each his own", but with suggestions from people on this and other boards, the learning curve can be shortened considerably!! This is a great sport where there really are no secrets, one just has to ask the right questions to the right people. And watch out for all the knuckledraggers out there, who spend more time on the keyboard than on the trigger. :D

Not saying it wont help, but where do you draw the line? Weight sort everything into .5 grain batches? Measure each bullet base to ojive? Turn necks? Trim or point meplats? That is the ultimate question. Personal perspective - hold the bar very high with regards to ammo and rifle, and learn to shoot. Then start ELIMINATING brass prep and loading techniques, and see if it makes a difference. In the meantime, any shot that does not hit center is due to the wind or the shooter. Fix that by learning to read the wind and how to pull the trigger. Now, was that so difficult? :p

Lane

rksimple
07-18-2008, 9:42 PM
Lane-are you shooting Vu's big norcal match? I'm sure there are tons of questions I have that you could answer. :)

PistolPete75
07-18-2008, 10:44 PM
to each his own on the reloading game. i don't know about y'all, but i rather shoot then sit at home and reload. just use good brass, trim after every 4 firings, and clean primer pockets every other firing. if you use solid, quality components your es and sd should be within reasonable tolerances. good enough for tactical shooting.

ar15barrels
07-18-2008, 10:47 PM
Lane-are you shooting Vu's big norcal match? I'm sure there are tons of questions I have that you could answer. :)

I don't think Lane likes those tubular things with the glass in them to be on top of his rifle...

PistolPete75
07-18-2008, 10:52 PM
A primer pocket uniformer doubles as great primer pocket cleaner too. And uniforming primer pockets has never hurt accuracy, the opposite of that statement can not be said.

a primer pocket uniformer will also shave brass off the primer pocket. do it too much and you'll ruin the brass.

rksimple
07-18-2008, 11:42 PM
I don't think Lane likes those tubular things with the glass in them to be on top of his rifle...

Unless he shot this match with peeps:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=109793

Looks like #27.

ar15barrels
07-18-2008, 11:55 PM
Unless he shot this match with peeps:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=109793

Looks like #27.

He may have. :eek:

rksimple
07-19-2008, 12:04 AM
He may have. :eek:

And if so he's the man. I'll never be that good!

jandmtv
07-19-2008, 12:23 AM
a primer pocket uniformer will also shave brass off the primer pocket. do it too much and you'll ruin the brass.

Sorry but, how would you "do it too much" if the tool is adjusted to a certain dept, and it stops cutting once it touches the head? :rolleyes:

Ahhnother8
07-19-2008, 7:47 PM
Lane-are you shooting Vu's big norcal match? I'm sure there are tons of questions I have that you could answer. No - I sucked at the ONE match I tried!! :(

I threw a Leopold 6.5x20 on my Palma rifle, with a tapered base. I use this scope on various rifles for load testing, and have shot MANY groups under 1/4" with it, so I know it doesn't drift. I fired a few shots at each yard line a couple of weeks before the match, for my zeros. Turns out that at each line the day of the match, the scope would be 1-3 minutes off of my zeros. I just don't think it was tracking true. Also noticed that a 1/4 MOA click didn't seem true either. With iron sights, my zeros are dead on, so it was VERY discouraging to say the least. And in the match program they forgot to mention the 2 shots in 6 seconds stages - kinda tough for a single shot rifle with no ejector!! :D

I think I learned enough to be dangerous next time though. Might have to throw a taped base on the AR, and borrow a better scope. Precision Shooting had an article on breaking-in scopes that I just read, so I have started on that process too. Will be preparing for the America's Match in Raton, New Mexico in September, so will be spending all available time on the bolt-gun until then. The weather will be nicer in the Fall/Winter also.

Unless he shot this match with peeps: - No. Have not figured out how to do it with the silhouette target. Would also have to carry a spotting scope around - no thanks. Am still trying to figure out how best to compete without spending a ton of money. Will be back in due course...

Lane

ar15barrels
07-19-2008, 7:51 PM
Am still trying to figure out how best to compete without spending a ton of money.

We all are...

rksimple
07-19-2008, 8:03 PM
Lane-I'm sure you could kick a** with a stock 700p and bushnell 3200 10x. I guess the rapid fire stages would be hard without an ejector! Good job nonetheless.

Pthfndr
07-19-2008, 8:35 PM
Lane

Talk to me when you get back from the Spirit matches. I'm going to be taking my USO off my Tikka for a bit while I give the irons a try. You can borrow it (the scope) if you want. Both the elevation dial and reticle are in MOA.


Guys, we threw Lane an unintentional twist. The COF he read was not the currently used one. We had 2 timed exposure stages where the target would come up at 3 times random intervals, for 6 seconds each time, and you had to put 2 shots on target each time. He was shooting a single shot rifle with no ejector and had to remove the fired case by hand for each shot. At 800,900,1000 yards the original COF called for 6 shots, with each shot being marked with a spotter. It was changed so only the first shot was spotted because too many guys had "issues" pulling the targets that many times in 3 minutes.

That said, in his first match, with only rough zeros and a questionable scope, he shot just a hair under 50%. There were several guys who shot worse than him that have been shooting the match for a long time with the same rifle. Some of them just shot the match down south and did pretty good there. That might tell you something.

Believe me when I say Vu was sweating bullets that a regular LR/HP iron sight shooter might come in and clean up in his first match.

Ahhnother8
07-19-2008, 8:36 PM
a primer pocket uniformer will also shave brass off the primer pocket. do it too much and you'll ruin the brass. - Beg to differ.

The cutter ONLY cuts on the bottom of the pocket. With new brass it will likely not touch the bottom at all. After firing, it will touch. That tells me the pocket is moving back. And each time they are cut, more brass is taken off the BOTTOM of the pocket. Now, shooting light loads may be different, but we all shoot at least 3000 fps with a 155 bullet in .308.

The Sinclair cutter is solid carbide, and not adjustable. Just chuck it in a drill and go to work. If you bother to clean a primer pocket, you may as well just recut it instead.

just use good brass, trim after every 4 firings, and clean primer pockets every other firing. if you use solid, quality components your es and sd should be within reasonable tolerances. good enough for tactical shooting. - Not if you EXPECT to win EVERY time!!

Example - yesterday I tested some 155 Cartiruccio bullets (custom). A friend gave me 500+- of them.

Grains.....Group..........ES......... SD
46.50..... .600 ........ 24.2 ...... 12.2
46.75..... .415 ......... 9.8 ........ 5.7
47......... .750 ........ 21.1 ...... 10.9
47.25..... .110 ........ 25.1 ...... 13.9
47.5....... .860 ......... 8.8 ........ 4.4
47.75..... .170 ........ 14.0 ........ 7.8
48......... .630 ........ 14.1 ........ 7.5

The group sizes, ES, and SD are too erratic to be comfortable with any of these loads. The smallest group loads would probably shoot fine out to 800 yards, but who knows what would happen beyond that. Not worth the risk!! Got another offer for a whole bunch more of these same bullets from another friend, for free. Why bother??

The same thing is going on with current production of Lapua 155's. They suck!! The only way to know is test them all with the best possible techniques.

MINIMAL elevation is extremely important. It makes missing a wind change not quite so devastating. Conversely, nailing a wind call and having the bullet impact quite high or low bites too.

Lane

30Cal
07-19-2008, 9:12 PM
- Beg to differ....

The same thing is going on with current production of Lapua 155's. They suck!!
...

That makes me feel better. I thought I may have been going crazy. I was a little disappointed in them.

PistolPete75
07-20-2008, 9:57 AM
if your shooting 155s at 3000fps, then i can understand that your putting your brass through alot of abuse. i shoot 168s with lupua brass, br2 primers, and 42.5gr of rl15 powder. i'm getting 2705fps, and consider it a pretty light load. it works for me, and i'm happy with the load. in reguards to taking brass off the primer pocket, i prefer not to take any off. i wouldn't notice a difference, and my primers go in evenly each time without it being loose in the primer pocket. my es and sd are within very reasonable tolerances, and even good enough to go past 600yards to 1k (not ideal but it does well). most shooters won't use 168s past 600yards, but i do as well as a few other socal shooters. again, to each his own.

if i was shooting 1k f-class, then that would be a total different story. everything must be super consistant, like benchresting. for tactical, i would say it's good enough for shooters that aren't loading it super hot and shooting a good quality brass like lupua. again, to each his own but one should know how much to spend time on reloading for his own purposes. for most typical shooters, i don't think it's necessary. for the typical shooter like myself, i rather drink a beer than spend all my time reloading.

NRAhighpowershooter
07-21-2008, 6:50 PM
I'm kinda late chiming in here... but I uniform all my rifle primer pockets just to make sure my primers are all seated .003" below flush. I also go one step further on my 600yd loads. I de-burr the flash holes... just to elimate one varible when I screw up a shot... you'd be suprised at the amount of brass that remains behind as burrs when they punch the flash hole.

jandmtv
07-21-2008, 7:08 PM
I'm kinda late chiming in here... but I uniform all my rifle primer pockets just to make sure my primers are all seated .003" below flush. I also go one step further on my 600yd loads. I de-burr the flash holes... just to elimate one varible when I screw up a shot... you'd be suprised at the amount of brass that remains behind as burrs when they punch the flash hole.


+1

I also hear that uniforming primer pockets and deburring flash holes on Lapua brass is a waste of time because the flash holes are drilled and the primer pockets are already uniform. I just cant seem to find any .308 Lapua brass in stock.