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View Full Version : birdshot is not the answer


sloguy
07-16-2008, 2:29 AM
an example of a guy who got hit in the face with birdshot and is not that bad off.

anyone using birdshot for defense, might want to rethink their options.

warning, the guys not pretty, but hes not that bad either. kinda looks like chicken pox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUReB32qaU4

hd0642
07-16-2008, 4:06 AM
you know your a redneck if........

dudes got flies all over those pellet holes

were his last words "its come to a head"? - yeah my head

fireblast713
07-16-2008, 5:04 AM
Guys lucky those rednecks were either cheap or ill informed on SD loads... 00B would not have left him w/ much of a head to speak of. I can't believe some people though, who would commit attempted murder over a dog?

sloguy
07-16-2008, 5:07 AM
you know your a redneck if........

dudes got flies all over those pellet holes

were his last words "its come to a head"? - yeah my head

my point is that birdshot is not an effective stopper. if a guy can take a pretty good shot in the head and be ok enough to walk around and talk to reporters..... maybe birdshot isnt the best choice for home defense, as many members here claim it to be.

sloguy
07-16-2008, 7:27 AM
Judging by the shot pattern on that guys face there must have been some distance involved.At close range say within 10 feet bird shot has the same effect as a slug

2 feet and youd be kinda right. 10 feet, no, sorry.

Ballistic043
07-16-2008, 7:28 AM
its not the same. bird shot being many small projectiles, loses energy very quickly over a short distance. a slug is a solid mass projectile that keeps more kinetic energy at a longer distance. your thinking in regards to spread, because of the distance required for the shot to 'open up' but the way it dissipates and expands once hitting an object is completely different than a slug.

loading a shotgun with birdshot for HD.. not only are you dealing with real tight close quarters and a big, cumbersome rifle; but your loading it with ammo that is only effective at a distance that would put you at a huge disadvantage. because then you have to deal with exposure, and possibly alternate physical contact with the perp.

if your really that concerned, get frangible ammo.

personally i use the best i can get; federal tactical 00 buck

packnrat
07-16-2008, 7:35 AM
you know your a redneck if........

dudes got flies all over those pellet holes

were his last words "its come to a head"? - yeah my head

the trama of the wounds might have goten the nerves a bit messed up.

some time back when my leg got crushed (works 99.99% now) the bottom of my foot had no fealing. all came back in a short time.

.

M. Sage
07-16-2008, 7:58 AM
Judging by the shot pattern on that guys face there must have been some distance involved.At close range say within 10 feet bird shot has the same effect as a slug

Nope. It hits, disperses and transfers all the energy within the first couple of inches. Birdshot, even at really close range, won't penetrate very deep. There's less force behind birdshot to begin with, too...

sargenv
07-16-2008, 8:20 AM
It really depends on what size the birdshot is and it's composition.

Lead #9's don't penetrate all that well, generally used for skeet.

Lead 7.5's are good for small game. Rabbits, dove, Quail, etc

Lead # 6's are good for small to medium sized game, Rabbits, Pheasant, Short range ducks (under 35 yards)

Lead #4's are good for longer range pheasant and ducks in general. A little light for geese.

Lead #2's are for large waterfowl. I don't know about you, but anything that can break wings and penetrate the body cavity of a goose (up to 8" deep) will certainly do a number on a human.

Unfortunately (fortunate for the birds) lead shot is no longer legal to hunt waterfowl with.

Steel shot while 70% of the weight of lead, is MUCH harder and penetrates like crazy. In fact when the changeover from lead to steel happened, they didn't understand that to make up for it's inadequacies of weight, they didn't initially launch it fast enough.

The Steel shot that I use has no problem completely penetrating smaller ducks and at least penetrating to the internal cavities of large geese. If it'll go through all that, I don't think it'll have any trouble penetrating into a human. It will at least get their attention. Steel shot also does not need much in the way of "choke" and tends to shoot best with a more open choke (Improved acts like modified, Cylinder acts like skeet or Improved).

Then we can talk about some of the more exotic non toxic shot.. Tungsten polymer or Tungsten/Iron. Supposed to be as heavy as lead and as hard as steel.. I think with that kind of material it probably retains sufficient energy and penetrates pretty well, the drawbacks are cost.

In most cases, a lot of people will likely use a shotgun with little to no choke. In those cases, anything out to any kind of distance is going to be less effective than a similar shotgun with some kind of choke. Even improved is better than none at all and slugs will pass through my modified choke (you need to figure out if they will in your gun since not all shotguns and chokes are the same). I've seen people who cannot effectively knock down a pepper popper at 12 yards using heavy duck loads (4's @ 1330 fps) using a typical open choked riot shotgun. I've seen the same popper knocked over effectively with an improved choked shotgun with 7.5's. Modified choked guns point almost like a rifle on static targets. You will generally have no slop in that pattern and the popper goes down right NOW!

In general, I dislike general statements about shotguns since there are too many variables. Unlike a rifle with it's single known projectile (which could be a varmint bullet, explosive but generally a shallow wound, or a solid which usually punches right through), it pays to know what your shotgun can do at different distances with different kinds of payloads.

sargenv
07-16-2008, 8:35 AM
personally i use the best i can get; federal tactical 00 buck

Um, why would tactical buck be the best? If it were me I'd be loading full power hunting buckshot. Tactical buck is like 9 pellets at 1200 fps. Hunting buck on the other hand is 9 pellets at 1400 fps. Definitely a bit more punch :)

roughly 8 pellets per ounce = 55 gr per pellet

@ 1200 fps = 175 Ft/# energy
@ 1400 fps = 239 Ft/# energy

9 pellets @ 1200 = 1575 ft/# @ the muzzle
9 pellets @ 1400 = 2154 ft/# @ the muzzle

To give an example:
223 rem
55 gr @ 3300 fps = 1330 Ft/# energy @ muzzle

308 Win
150 gr @ 2700 fps = 2428 ft/# energy @ muzzle

Interesting eh?

sloguy
07-16-2008, 8:45 AM
Um, why would tactical buck be the best? If it were me I'd be loading full power hunting buckshot. Tactical buck is like 9 pellets at 1200 fps. Hunting buck on the other hand is 9 pellets at 1400 fps. Definitely a bit more punch :)

roughly 8 pellets per ounce = 55 gr per pellet

@ 1200 fps = 175 Ft/# energy
@ 1400 fps = 239 Ft/# energy

9 pellets @ 1200 = 1575 ft/# @ the muzzle
9 pellets @ 1400 = 2154 ft/# @ the muzzle

To give an example:
223 rem
55 gr @ 3300 fps = 1330 Ft/# energy @ muzzle

308 Win
150 gr @ 2700 fps = 2428 ft/# energy @ muzzle

Interesting eh?

i think the lesser buckshot has less felt recoil and is easier to follow up shoot than with the heavier or faster loads. how much deeper does the 1400fps stuff get into gelatin tests than the 1200 fps stuff? whats the actual trade off? how much extra kick for how much extra penetration? and buckshot is a good penetrator, is that extra penetration even needed?

M. Sage
07-16-2008, 1:21 PM
It really depends on what size the birdshot is and it's composition.

Lead #9's don't penetrate all that well, generally used for skeet.

Lead 7.5's are good for small game. Rabbits, dove, Quail, etc

Lead # 6's are good for small to medium sized game, Rabbits, Pheasant, Short range ducks (under 35 yards)

Lead #4's are good for longer range pheasant and ducks in general. A little light for geese.

Lead #2's are for large waterfowl. I don't know about you, but anything that can break wings and penetrate the body cavity of a goose (up to 8" deep) will certainly do a number on a human.

Unfortunately (fortunate for the birds) lead shot is no longer legal to hunt waterfowl with.

Steel shot while 70% of the weight of lead, is MUCH harder and penetrates like crazy. In fact when the changeover from lead to steel happened, they didn't understand that to make up for it's inadequacies of weight, they didn't initially launch it fast enough.

The Steel shot that I use has no problem completely penetrating smaller ducks and at least penetrating to the internal cavities of large geese. If it'll go through all that, I don't think it'll have any trouble penetrating into a human. It will at least get their attention. Steel shot also does not need much in the way of "choke" and tends to shoot best with a more open choke (Improved acts like modified, Cylinder acts like skeet or Improved).

I wouldn't put too much weight on performance vs birds. Birds aren't exactly "tough" animals. Their bones are very weak for one thing. Bird flesh isn't anything like people. 2 bird might be enough for people, but I don't think I'll take my chances on anything smaller than 4 buck.

Ditto with knocking down poppers. Shot size isn't going to make a huge difference at that, not nearly as much as getting all the shot on the popper to give it enough of a push.

Um, why would tactical buck be the best? If it were me I'd be loading full power hunting buckshot. Tactical buck is like 9 pellets at 1200 fps. Hunting buck on the other hand is 9 pellets at 1400 fps. Definitely a bit more punch

Full-power hunting buckshot can kill a deer (bit bigger and a lot tougher than a person) out to 50 yards or so. Do you need the extra penetration and recoil for defense? Not really. The extra velocity isn't going to make the 9 .32" holes any bigger, and I'd expect total penetration from tactical buckshot, so penetration isn't an issue...

AJD
07-16-2008, 1:59 PM
Btw, something to consider is that when using higher velocity buck vs. low recoil, you actually get more penatration with the low recoil. It is same reason you generally get tighter patterns with the lower recoil buck. Less blast equals less deformation to the pellets before they strike their target. The full power loads deform the shot much more prior to impact making the pellets lose some of their round shape making them less aeorodynamic (wider patterns) and less ability to penetrate as round objects flow through tissue faster than not as round objects. Also, the harder the pellet strikes the body the more deformation of the pellet resulting in less penatration. This is somewhat similar to a hollowpoint or other expanding ammo only on a smaller scale. Hardened or plated buckshot is much more resistant to this and it also generally patterns tighter as well.

sargenv
07-16-2008, 1:59 PM
Fair enough, though if you do your part, a follow up shot should be un-neccesary. As a friend used to say, "you can never kill anything too dead".

GuyW
07-16-2008, 3:54 PM
Mmmm, isn't there a current thread about the guy killed at the skeet range with birdshot??

...it's not what I'd choose, but I don't want to get shot with it, either....

M. Sage
07-16-2008, 4:52 PM
Well, yeah... it's not impossible. People get killed by "non-lethal" stuff like Tasers and beanbag rounds, too. Point is, it's a lot less likely.

BroncoBob
07-16-2008, 5:06 PM
I'm sorry over a f****** dog? OMG what the heck is this sad world coming too? I wonder if the guy even could feel the fly's on his head? Might be pretty fricken numb after getting blasted.

spitter3
07-16-2008, 5:11 PM
I wouldn't put too much weight on performance vs birds. Birds aren't exactly "tough" animals. Their bones are very weak for one thing. Bird flesh isn't anything like people. 2 bird might be enough for people, but I don't think I'll take my chances on anything smaller than 4 buck.

Ditto with knocking down poppers. Shot size isn't going to make a huge difference at that, not nearly as much as getting all the shot on the popper to give it enough of a push.



Full-power hunting buckshot can kill a deer (bit bigger and a lot tougher than a person) out to 50 yards or so. Do you need the extra penetration and recoil for defense? Not really. The extra velocity isn't going to make the 9 .32" holes any bigger, and I'd expect total penetration from tactical buckshot, so penetration isn't an issue...

Sorry guys isn't reduced recoil loads just that, I recently purchased 3" mag buck 00 15 pellet and it is advertised as the same velocity as the reduced recoil. The reduced recoil just uses less powder to propel less shot than than the standard 2 3/4" shell of 12 pellets.

wilit
07-16-2008, 5:48 PM
The victim made a critical error (i'm surprised no one mentioned it). After the perp shot the vic's dog, the vic pulled out his pistol and fired a warning shot. Like I just learned in the Utah CCW class, never fire a warning shot. If the gun comes out, someone is going on the ground.

BroncoBob
07-16-2008, 5:54 PM
The victim made a critical error (i'm surprised no one mentioned it). After the perp shot the vic's dog, the vic pulled out his pistol and fired a warning shot. Like I just learned in the Utah CCW class, never fire a warning shot. If the gun comes out, someone is going on the ground.

Excellent point, never pull out a gun unless you're going to shoot them.
Thanks for pointing that out.

sloguy
07-17-2008, 1:18 AM
The victim made a critical error (i'm surprised no one mentioned it). After the perp shot the vic's dog, the vic pulled out his pistol and fired a warning shot. Like I just learned in the Utah CCW class, never fire a warning shot. If the gun comes out, someone is going on the ground.


that was the first thing i noticed when i saw the clip. your absolutely right. prior to the shooting he should have called his dogs into the house and locked em up, and waited for the police. if someone threatened my dog id move the dog out of sight till the cops arrived.

the guys poor decisions are not what i wanted to show you guys. i wanted to show what a poor man-stopper bird shot is. maybe save a fellow calgunner s butt if they ever need to shoot.


Fair enough, though if you do your part, a follow up shot should be un-neccesary. As a friend used to say, "you can never kill anything too dead".

your quote could also be used for the other side of the argument. that 'you can never kill anything too dead' could translate to say 'you can never kill anything dead enough'. i take the quote as 'make sure, and shoot twice on principle' sort of thing.

sloguy
07-17-2008, 1:23 AM
I'm sorry over a f****** dog? OMG what the heck is this sad world coming too? I wonder if the guy even could feel the fly's on his head? Might be pretty fricken numb after getting blasted.

many people love their dogs like children. they are a part of the family. i cant fault fly-guy for protecting his dog. i do fault him for being dumb.

what i find the saddest is the father and son who would do a driveby on a guys dog. the dog being locked up inside the yard no less. those guys are scum to me.

technique
07-17-2008, 1:40 AM
Poor dog.....:(

ZOMBIEHUNTER
07-17-2008, 4:05 PM
BB shot is deadly its the biggest before you get to buck

M. Sage
07-17-2008, 5:18 PM
your quote could also be used for the other side of the argument. that 'you can never kill anything too dead' could translate to say 'you can never kill anything dead enough'. i take the quote as 'make sure, and shoot twice on principle' sort of thing.

If it's worth one round, it's worth two.

elsolo
07-18-2008, 8:57 AM
Birdshot bridges the gap between defensive ammo and a tazer. Less lethal, yet still a pretty good encouragement to get the hell away from the person shooting at you.

tankerman
07-18-2008, 3:44 PM
Birdshot bridges the gap between defensive ammo and a tazer. Less lethal, yet still a pretty good encouragement to get the hell away from the person shooting at you.
Poor auttempt at logic. If the dude wants to kill you birdshot will not do squat.

tankerman
07-18-2008, 3:50 PM
Btw, something to consider is that when using higher velocity buck vs. low recoil, you actually get more penatration with the low recoil. It is same reason you generally get tighter patterns with the lower recoil buck. Less blast equals less deformation to the pellets before they strike their target. The full power loads deform the shot much more prior to impact making the pellets lose some of their round shape making them less aeorodynamic (wider patterns) and less ability to penetrate as round objects flow through tissue faster than not as round objects. Also, the harder the pellet strikes the body the more deformation of the pellet resulting in less penatration. This is somewhat similar to a hollowpoint or other expanding ammo only on a smaller scale. Hardened or plated buckshot is much more resistant to this and it also generally patterns tighter as well.

Perhaps you could share some of these human penetration studies where at close range lower velocity pellets pentrate more than high velocity pellets?

How much do you think shot pattern is going to vary at 10 feet? This is self defense, not "Pot Shooting" at the trap range taking 80 yard shots.

AJD
07-18-2008, 5:07 PM
Perhaps you could share some of these human penetration studies where at close range lower velocity pellets pentrate more than high velocity pellets?

How much do you think shot pattern is going to vary at 10 feet? This is self defense, not "Pot Shooting" at the trap range taking 80 yard shots.

Well, here's a link which discusses shotgun effectivness and terminal ballistics. I know the folks who wrote that are members of the International wound ballistics Association. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Dr. Gary Roberts as well as other members have done extensive research on wound ballistics with shotgun loads. They are over at the tacticalforums website.

As far as shot spread I did NOT bring that up to try and recommend ammo based on spreads for engagement distances. I merely brought it up as another example to try an explain the dynamics of shotgun loads as an example of the point I was trying to make. But thanks for your condescending response.

1lostinspace
07-18-2008, 5:42 PM
I load 000 because when you shoot at people they do strange things like take cover.

:hide:

Blue
07-18-2008, 5:46 PM
Somebody tried to kill a family member of mine with bird shot and left him for dead. He walked several miles to a house where he got help. He was messed up, but survived and the cops nailed the 3 guys that did it to him. Birdshot isn't the right ammo to hunt people with.

-hanko
07-18-2008, 6:23 PM
my point is that birdshot is not an effective stopper. if a guy can take a pretty good shot in the head and be ok enough to walk around and talk to reporters..... maybe birdshot isnt the best choice for home defense, as many members here claim it to be.
Those who do may want to repeat high school physics;)

-hanko

sigsauer887
07-18-2008, 7:44 PM
Guy looks like beetlejuice.

Scream his name 3 times so he can make a visit

Blue
07-18-2008, 7:47 PM
Guy looks like beetlejuice.

Scream his name 3 times so he can make a visit

Yea, look at all the flies and bugs hangin out on his forehead too :eek:

ohsmily
07-21-2008, 11:44 AM
Judging by the shot pattern on that guys face there must have been some distance involved.At close range say within 10 feet bird shot has the same effect as a slug

Bzzt. No.

Surprised no one posted this yet.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

tombinghamthegreat
07-21-2008, 4:05 PM
personally i use the best i can get; federal tactical 00 buck

+1 that and i love 00 buck. bird shot is too weak for SD and i would rather use slugs than bird shot. If you are going to use a firearm for defense, it should be to kill someone so they cannot counterattack you. The Vice President shot someone in the face with birdshot and he did not die.

Kelvrick
07-21-2008, 4:07 PM
I personally use #1 buckshot.

viras
07-21-2008, 7:41 PM
The guy in the video and the perps are all idiots. If the guy had originally restrained his dog (which is how it all started), the other dude would have had no problems with him. Build a damn fence already! The numbnuts said "This has been going on for years"... well dang, Einstein...you think you coulda built your dogs a kennel by now! The other dude and his son were just stupid to pull out guns over something so insignificant in the first place.

Idiots.

Anyway, for HD, I use 00 Buck. The Box of Truth guy is usually right...

sloguy
07-21-2008, 8:42 PM
If the guy had originally restrained his dog (which is how it all started), the other dude would have had no problems with him. Build a damn fence already!


35 seconds into the video, theres the fence. your mistaken on that point.

viras
07-21-2008, 9:05 PM
35 seconds into the video, theres the fence. your mistaken on that point.

Are you talkin about that thin, rusty, chicken wire looking thing that doesn't look like it could withstand a sneeze, much less a determined dog?

Ya, that's not a proper fence...

Judge Judy would yell at them both. ;)

V8toytruck
07-21-2008, 9:37 PM
I found out how ineffective birdshot was at Angeles's pistol range. When you hit the closest steel plates with a .45 those things go flying. When you hit it with a 9mm, it swings. When you shoot it with bird shot. Nothing happens! They barely flinch. 00 buck for me please