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kstrongsyj
07-15-2008, 8:03 AM
Hey guys, curious if you can help me with the RV laws. I want to mount a shotgun in the back of my motor home. I know you can drink in the back while moving, but can you have a loaded firearm so long as it is not in the driver area?

ZapThyCat
07-15-2008, 8:20 AM
Locked container? Unloaded?

I think when the RV stops, it's considered a campsite or home-base... so you can have loaded weapons there.

I'll have to look it up...

MudCamper
07-15-2008, 8:34 AM
Long guns can be transported concealed or unconcealed. No locked case necessary. Must be unloaded. In a school zone you may need it to be locked (locking rack OK). Once you camp your RV is your home, so loaded is OK if not otherwise prohibited. (This means 12025/12031 do not apply, but for example if you are in a State Park it must remain locked up.)

kstrongsyj
07-15-2008, 11:55 AM
But about loaded? Since it is an extension of the home, and open containers are an example of a difference in the law, can a firearm be loaded in the back?

MFortie
07-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Can't quote any statutes or codes, however from actually owning a RV, my understanding is simply:

1) When it's being driven, automobile laws apply

2) When it's parked, home laws apply

Think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to make the loaded gun thing fly while on the road...

thefifthspeed
07-15-2008, 12:24 PM
From what I understand is you treat an RV as a regular car in the eyes of the law since it's readily available to be mobile. I forgot which case law applies.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2008, 1:23 PM
Health and Safety code. Motor home and travel trailers are homes when not on the road. The exception to the drinking while driving is that the area behind the drivers area is part of the home, not the vehicle. Just as they need a warrant to search your RV if you do not consent. (with exceptions)

As to loaded guns, the PC describes that while a vehicle (an RV is a vehicle while it is on the road) is on a public street (I'm paraphrasing here), your long gun must be unloaded, and locked up if in a school zone.

Now, does anyone I know do different? :rolleyes:

CSACANNONEER
07-15-2008, 5:29 PM
Also, be aware that when travelling over indian owned land you might have problems if you get caught.

Shotgun Man
07-15-2008, 5:35 PM
From an earlier thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=73865&highlight=school&page=4

Then, we were talking about a handgun, but I think that the school zone firearm prohibition pertains to all firearms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smogcity
What about an RV or a VW campervan? would both be considered as "a second home" and a pistol be allowed? Would locked and loaded be legal like in your primarey home or a campsite?

Shotgun Man responds:

In my research on 12026.1 I came across a case where a guy had his camper parked within some specified distance of a school ground. The camper was his residence. The cops found a loaded semiauto handgun behind the coach. Trial judge found him guilty of carrying a gun within a "Gun-Free School Zone."

The appeals courts held that the camper did not qualify under the residential exemption. So the guy was hosed. Doesn't seem right, because the vehicle was not even moving, and it was stipulated it was the guy's residence.

So with the camper scenario, you got to be real careful.

People v. Anson
105 Cal.App.4th 22, 129 Cal.Rptr.2d 124
Cal.App. 4 Dist.,2002.


BTW, West's annotated statutes doesn't reveal a single case under 12026.1.

Casual Observer
07-15-2008, 5:41 PM
So just don't park your camper / RV within 1000' of a school.

kstrongsyj
07-15-2008, 6:05 PM
Yeah, School Zone means nothing to me. if my camper isnt in my backyard (miles from any school) then it is camping ;) I have a CCW so I am not worried about handgun, I just wanted to be legal with the shotgun. Sounds like I need to rack 6 shells in the side saddle and leave the tube empty.

tyrist
07-15-2008, 7:39 PM
As soon as you hook up your RV to utilities at a camp site you can load your shotgun. While the RV is in motion it is considered a vehicle. When it is parted and connected to utilities it is considered a home.

E Pluribus Unum
07-16-2008, 1:15 AM
As soon as you hook up your RV to utilities at a camp site you can load your shotgun. While the RV is in motion it is considered a vehicle. When it is parted and connected to utilities it is considered a home.

It need not be hooked to utilities. My RV is as hooked to utilities as it ever is while parked. I have a 6500 watt Onan and the places I camp have no further "utilities" except for the running water in Alder Creek.

The "open container" thing needs to be discussed as well. As I understood it, while driving down the road, in order for alcohol consumption in the passenger compartment to be legal, the driver's compartment must be separate. This was the logic explained to me when asking why it is legal to consume alcohol in a limo but not a van.

randy
07-16-2008, 5:26 AM
It's not a home going down the road. It's not a home at a rest stop. It's a home in a campsite or campground.

tyrist
07-16-2008, 7:58 PM
It need not be hooked to utilities. My RV is as hooked to utilities as it ever is while parked. I have a 6500 watt Onan and the places I camp have no further "utilities" except for the running water in Alder Creek.

The "open container" thing needs to be discussed as well. As I understood it, while driving down the road, in order for alcohol consumption in the passenger compartment to be legal, the driver's compartment must be separate. This was the logic explained to me when asking why it is legal to consume alcohol in a limo but not a van.

I was taught in the police academy it had to be hooked up to utilities to be considered a residence. This would have come from case law I am sure but they never told us the cases. If it is not hooked up to utilities it is considred a parked car. You can consume alcohol in a limo when the divider between the driver and the passengers is up.

MudCamper
07-16-2008, 9:06 PM
Sounds like this is another area where there is a lot of myth and not a lot of fact. Let's look at the PC.

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply... ...anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence

12031 (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

So clearly you are exempt from 12031 (loaded) when in your "temporary residence or campsite". Your RV does not need to be "hooked up" to anything to be your temprary residence or campsite.

12025 (concealed) is less clear. Is one's RV his "place of residence"? Maybe.

I wonder if there is any case law that helps clarify this.

Casual Observer
07-16-2008, 11:29 PM
I was taught in the police academy it had to be hooked up to utilities to be considered a residence. This would have come from case law I am sure but they never told us the cases. If it is not hooked up to utilities it is considred a parked car. You can consume alcohol in a limo when the divider between the driver and the passengers is up.

What if your RV is in a place where there are no utilities?

You can have a gun in a tent at a campsite. How is that any different from a parked RV?

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 12:17 AM
I was taught in the police academy it had to be hooked up to utilities to be considered a residence. This would have come from case law I am sure but they never told us the cases. If it is not hooked up to utilities it is considred a parked car. You can consume alcohol in a limo when the divider between the driver and the passengers is up.

They also teach in the academy that 12031 prevents ammo and gun to be in reach of the driver. Some academies teach that a handgun must be in a locked case when transported. Both of these things are incorrect. Just because they "teach it in academy" doesn't mean it is the law.

What if your RV is in a place where there are no utilities?

You can have a gun in a tent at a campsite. How is that any different from a parked RV?

There is no difference. One's RV does not have to be hooked to utilities to qualify for the loaded/concealed exemption. If you are at Lake Lopez, the fact that your camper is parked in a camp site is good enough. If you are ANYWHERE on private property, you are probably safe. Arguing that your RV parked on a public street is a temporary residence wont work.

It comes down to what a jury will believe. One cannot really say he is "camping" in the Walmart parking lot. If however he is off the public highways, say, on BLM land where camping is legal, the presence of utilities is not required.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-17-2008, 9:42 AM
I'm a Life Member of Good Sam and FMCA. This has been hashed over a few thousand times at least (so I may exaggerate) on this GS forum. Since many members are current LEO and attorneys, the info there is sound. So far, most of the responses on this thread have been only partially correct. Once again, I direct you to the Health and Safety Code of CA for the definition of a home as it pertains to an RV. From their you can apply the proper PC code in regard to firearms.

In case you want to ask for yourselves, here is a GS link to the forum:

http:// www.goodsamclub.com/forums/default.aspx

(I added a space before "www" to keep this from being a link back)

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 10:29 AM
I'm a Life Member of Good Sam and FMCA. This has been hashed over a few thousand times at least (so I may exaggerate) on this GS forum. Since many members are current LEO and attorneys, the info there is sound. So far, most of the responses on this thread have been only partially correct. Once again, I direct you to the Health and Safety Code of CA for the definition of a home as it pertains to an RV. From their you can apply the proper PC code in regard to firearms.

In case you want to ask for yourselves, here is a GS link to the forum:

http:// www.goodsamclub.com/forums/default.aspx

(I added a space before "www" to keep this from being a link back)

I hope you are not referring to the "utilities" comment. That is the main thing I have issue with. Many people who live in the mountains only have generator power for their homes. I doubt you will get anyone to say that a double wide in the mountains with no utilities is not a "home". The RV is no different. The fact that it has a kitchen, shower, and a bed makes it a temporary home whenever it is off the public roadway.

P.S.
It is a little too much to expect the users of this forum to search another looking for a relevant post. If you are going to post a link to another forum the least you can do is find the thread that is related and post a link to that thread... ;)

IGOTDIRT4U
07-17-2008, 10:43 AM
I hope you are not referring to the "utilities" comment. That is the main thing I have issue with. Many people who live in the mountains only have generator power for their homes. I doubt you will get anyone to say that a double wide in the mountains with no utilities is not a "home". The RV is no different. The fact that it has a kitchen, shower, and a bed makes it a temporary home whenever it is off the public roadway.

P.S.
It is a little too much to expect the users of this forum to search another looking for a relevant post. If you are going to post a link to another forum the least you can do is find the thread that is related and post a link to that thread... ;)


That forum is so huge, it makes this one look like it has 5 members. The subject comes up enough that a search would reveal any number of related topics of a recent nature. Plus, the topic here is twofold. What is a "home" as related to an RV, and when is a loaded firearm legal. (nevermind the drinking analogies) You can find threads on both topics and seperately addressing the two topics, as well.

that aside, no, I was not referring to the utilities comment. Utilities is not even a question in determining a "home" per H&S Code.

jamesob
07-17-2008, 3:56 PM
not all laws apply to r.v's that apply to a standard automobile. such as not everybody has to wear seatbelts and open whisky bottles in the cabinets.

tyrist
07-17-2008, 7:31 PM
I hope you are not referring to the "utilities" comment. That is the main thing I have issue with. Many people who live in the mountains only have generator power for their homes. I doubt you will get anyone to say that a double wide in the mountains with no utilities is not a "home". The RV is no different. The fact that it has a kitchen, shower, and a bed makes it a temporary home whenever it is off the public roadway.

P.S.
It is a little too much to expect the users of this forum to search another looking for a relevant post. If you are going to post a link to another forum the least you can do is find the thread that is related and post a link to that thread... ;)

When you are on private property you can pretty much have a loaded gun anywhere as long as the owner consents. A double wide is not classified as a motor vehicle nor is a tent. The RV pretty much has to be set up at a campsite and hooked up to utilities to be considered a home. This means if you were parked on public land where you were not allowed to have a firearm in your vehicle, you could have it in your RV when it was hooked up to utilities. There are too many variables from your analogies. I will e-mail the law unit and get clarification.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 8:54 PM
When you are on private property you can pretty much have a loaded gun anywhere as long as the owner consents. A double wide is not classified as a motor vehicle nor is a tent. The RV pretty much has to be set up at a campsite and hooked up to utilities to be considered a home. This means if you were parked on public land where you were not allowed to have a firearm in your vehicle, you could have it in your RV when it was hooked up to utilities. There are too many variables from your analogies. I will e-mail the law unit and get clarification.

You are gravely mistaken. I CAN have a loaded, concealed weapon in a tent at a campsite. I don't have to have a motorhome or a camper to qualify for the exemption.

When you contact the "law unit" to get clarification ask for the the LAW, not just opinion. I don't trust things like "I emailed the law unit and they said, this".

I trust, "the penal code and case law says this: and this is the name of the case".

For whatever reason, much of law enforcement does not like anyone else to have guns. For this reason, they often quote rumor and conjecture regardless of what the law says.

The law says I can have a concealed, loaded, weapon at my campsite; it does not say that I have to have utilities at that camp site.

tyrist
07-17-2008, 9:06 PM
You are gravely mistaken. I CAN have a loaded, concealed weapon in a tent at a campsite. I don't have to have a motorhome or a camper to qualify for the exemption.

When you contact the "law unit" to get clarification ask for the the LAW, not just opinion. I don't trust things like "I emailed the law unit and they said, this".

I trust, "the penal code and case law says this: and this is the name of the case".

For whatever reason, much of law enforcement does not like anyone else to have guns. For this reason, they often quote rumor and conjecture regardless of what the law says.

The law says I can have a concealed, loaded, weapon at my campsite; it does not say that I have to have utilities at that camp site.

I think we are having a communication issue here since I never said you could'nt have a firearm in a tent at a campsite. A campsite is going to be treated differently than a street. I understand at a campsite inside a tent you can have a loaded firearm. What I am saying is on the street or other area which you would normally be prohibited to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle; if your RV is hooked up to utilities it becomes a residence and therefor is no longer a vehicle. Perhaps saying it that way will help bridge the gap.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 9:16 PM
I think we are having a communication issue here. A campsite is going to be treated differently than a street. I understand at a campsite inside a tent you can have a loaded firearm. What I am saying is on the street or other area which you would normally be prohibited to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle; if your RV is hooked up to utilities it becomes a residence and therefor is no longer a vehicle.

I think you have the wrong idea of what is exempted. The presence of utilities really doesn't matter. It has to do with the location of the motorhome; and nothing else.

Case in point: A man parks his motorhome on the street in front of his house and runs an extension cord to his house, and a hose to his facet. In this case, the motorhome would be hooked to utilities, but a loaded weapon in the vehicle would still be illegal because it is on a public roadway.

One cannot camp on a public road. Nor can one camp in a private parking lot. In these locations the motorhome is a vehicle and bound by the VC. In off-road areas, in the act of camping, they are no longer vehicles.

The fact that it is a motorhome doesn't matter either; it is all about location. If I pitch a tent in the Walmart parking lot, I cannot have a loaded weapon in that tent.

tyrist
07-17-2008, 9:22 PM
I think you have the wrong idea of what is exempted. The presence of utilities really doesn't matter. It has to do with the location of the motorhome; and nothing else.

Case in point: A man parks his motorhome on the street in front of his house and runs an extension cord to his house, and a hose to his facet. In this case, the motorhome would be hooked to utilities, but a loaded weapon in the vehicle would still be illegal because it is on a public roadway.

One cannot camp on a public road. Nor can one camp in a private parking lot. In these locations the motorhome is a vehicle and bound by the VC. In off-road areas, in the act of camping, they are no longer vehicles.

The fact that it is a motorhome doesn't matter either; it is all about location. If I pitch a tent in the Walmart parking lot, I cannot have a loaded weapon in that tent.

When the motorhome is hooked to utilites it becomes a residence. If the motorhome is illegally residing in a prohibited area its a violation of 647(J) pc illegal lodging. Its a seperate issue. I am merely dealing with the issue of when the vehicle becomes a residence outside of any other issue.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 9:30 PM
When the motorhome is hooked to utilites it becomes a residence. If the motorhome is illegally residing in a prohibited area its a violation of 647(J) pc illegal lodging. Its a seperate issue. I am merely dealing with the issue of when the vehicle becomes a residence outside of any other issue.

647(j) is a whole other issue. In reading the PC, whether it is attached to utilities is never mentioned. That wording comes from various articles written about the law but I have yet to see it in the penal code or in case law; if you can show me where it does, I will concede that point an apologize.

In reading it myself, a motorhome parked on the street is a vehicle regardless of utilities. If my mustang is parked on my private property I can have a concealed loaded weapon because it is my property so whether a motorhome is parked there or not is moot.

As far as 647(j) is concerned, it is legal to park a vehicle on a street for three days. Without probable cause to search, there is no way to prove there is a human in that legally parked vehicle. Wear ear plugs and the most they can do is knock; if no one answers, they have no evidence of a violation of 647(j) unless they sit and wait.

tyrist
07-17-2008, 9:33 PM
US supreme court ruling on California V. Carney is what you want to read.

It refers to "appointments" as establishing the RV as a residence....Parking and living out of an RV are not enough

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 9:41 PM
US supreme court ruling on California V. Carney is what you want to read.


I found this regarding the subject; while it does list utilities as one of the criteria, its not the determining factor; there are one of many factors to be considered.

http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/legdec94.htm

It refers to "appointments" as establishing the RV as a residence....Parking and living out of an RV are not enough

I never said it was.... I am simply arguing that a motorhome parked at a campsite is exempted even in the case where it is not connected to utilities.

tyrist
07-17-2008, 9:45 PM
Like I said we were having miscommunication. If the RV is in a place normally used as a place of residence it can be a residence. I was just trying to keep the poster completely safe because once you hook up utilities you are a residence and guaranteed 4th amendment protection no ifs ands or buts. Unless he wants to make another supreme court case on the issue of RVs as homes. While it uses the term probably reguarding utilities it was taught to us that utilities make it a residence.

E Pluribus Unum
07-17-2008, 10:13 PM
While it uses the term probably reguarding utilities it was taught to us that utilities make it a residence.

That is not what the decision said, but I could see the generalization. So I guess a drug dealer who trades sex for marijuana is safe against search if he runs an extension cord to a power outlet. :)

I guess I could fire up my external generator anytime I don't want the cops searching my coach.... :)

fairfaxjim
07-18-2008, 7:45 AM
This discussion points out very clearly that, when it pertains to firearms, the LE Administration, playing to the highly leftist influenced run governments, has established training and operational parameters that are more suited to "toeing the party line" than fairly and impassionatly enforcing the law. Coupled with the fact that gun law in CA has been subverted and made citizen unfriendly by those same governments, respect of constitutional rights and even handed treatment of armed citizens is nearly impossible for the rank and file LEO. They are not "anti-gun" personally so much as they are taught a very special brand of law and justice, puntuated by fear of "officer safety" issues. In CA, having a firearm during an interaction with LE is very dangerous to your personal safety, freedom, and financial well being. Having a loaded firearm ups that danger significantly.

The answer is not to run and hide with your firearms. It is to be very knowledgable about the laws and the case law. It also means, as evidenced in this thread, that depending upon LE, local or state, to provide you with that knowledge is not a viable option. Everyone has to establish their own level of comfort, and that should be based on your OWN PERSONAL knowlege. It is good to get an idea about where to look and what you need to know on boards like this, but in the end, Do your own research, and then make your own decisions. Carry safe and sane out there.