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surfinguru
07-14-2008, 12:45 PM
So I'm surfing the net trying to find 911 response times for my county and end up perusing my local LE web site and here's their recommendations if you're on the receiving end of a robbery:

Robbery

Robbery is the felonious taking of personal property in the possession of another, from his person or immediate presence, and against his will, accomplished by means of force or fear.

During a robbery:

* Remain calm and listen to the robber's demands. If you panic, you increase the possibility of violence.
* Avoid making sudden movements.
* Do not resist a robber's efforts to take your property.
* Do not offer items which are not specifically requested.
* Observe the suspect's physical description (i.e. sex, race, age, and clothing worn.)
* Without placing yourself in danger, attempt to notice the license plate number and description of the suspect's car, if one is seen.


After a robbery has occurred:

* Go to a safe location as close as possible to the robbery scene and call 911.
* Keep all witnesses at the scene until the police can interview them. If a witness has to leave, get their name, address, and phone number.
* Don't touch or move any evidence.
* Write down a complete description of the suspect, weapon, if any, and vehicle used.
List all property taken, along with serial numbers, when possible.

Wow, thanks for that helpful info! Really makes me feel so safe and secure. Just drives home the point once again that we really are on our own for protection. Just have to keep saving my $ for my first HD gun. (Anyone in Santa Cruz want to sell me a good 9mm?)

Clodbuster
07-14-2008, 12:50 PM
Sounds similar to recommendations a few years back on what to do if you were getting raped.... :eek:

I think they changed that after some public outcry.

Clod

So I'm surfing the net trying to find 911 response times for my county and end up perusing my local LE web site and here's their recommendations if you're on the receiving end of a robbery:



Wow, thanks for that helpful info! Really makes me feel so safe and secure. Just drives home the point once again that we really are on our own for protection. Just have to keep saving my $ for my first HD gun. (Anyone in Santa Cruz want to sell me a good 9mm?)

CA_Libertarian
07-14-2008, 12:54 PM
My advice:
*Remain calm
*Draw your weapon
*Aim center of mass
*Discharge firearm until threat is nuetralized
*Reload if needed (you never know if he had a 'lookout' that could come running in to help your assailant)
*As soon as it can safely be done, inform LE of the situation (or have an unarmed bystander do it while you stay alert for further threats).
*Immediately contact the attorney you keep on speed dial.

CSACANNONEER
07-14-2008, 12:57 PM
My advice:
*Remain calm
*Draw your weapon
*Aim center of mass
*Discharge firearm until threat is nuetralized
*Reload if needed (you never know if he had a 'lookout' that could come running in to help your assailant)
*As soon as it can safely be done, inform LE of the situation (or have an unarmed bystander do it while you stay alert for further threats).
*Immediately contact the attorney you keep on speed dial.

You forgot

*pick up your brass and relocate to a safe place!

M. Sage
07-14-2008, 1:44 PM
You forgot

*pick up your brass and relocate to a safe place!

Evidence tampering. Brass stays down...

chris
07-14-2008, 1:47 PM
the police are there just in time to draw the chalk line around your now dead body by following that advice.

remain calm
aim center mass
squeeze the trigger
and above all don't miss the B*stard.

tgun
07-14-2008, 1:48 PM
My local police website says to yell "FIRE" in case of rape.

yellowfin
07-14-2008, 1:52 PM
I wonder how those who write such policies would react to their doctors treating disease the same way as they recommend treating criminals.

ibanezfoo
07-14-2008, 1:56 PM
Holy crap who's side are they on anyway? Seems like they are encouraging robbery with BS like that.

-Bryan

GuyW
07-14-2008, 1:58 PM
Holy crap who's side are they on anyway? Seems like they are encouraging robbery with BS like that.

-Bryan


...its a protection racket...

CrippledPidgeon
07-14-2008, 2:16 PM
Evidence tampering. Brass stays down...

Use a revolver. And spread some microstamped brass just in case.

Clodbuster
07-14-2008, 2:21 PM
So do they tell you to yell "Rape" in case of a fire???? :D

Clod

My local police website says to yell "FIRE" in case of rape.

Subvertz
07-14-2008, 2:27 PM
http://www.sandiego.gov/police/prevention/robbery.shtml
San diego, all the way at bottom of page

What to Do If You Are Robbed
The first thing to do is to train your employees on what to do in the event of a robbery. Every robbery is different. You will need to assess yourself, the robber, and the situation to determine what you should do. Here are some general tips:

Act calmly. Do exactly what the robber says. Keep your movements short and smooth to avoid startling the robber.
Do not resist. Cooperate for you own safety and the safety of others. Robbers usually are excited and easily provoked. Tell the robber about any movements you plan to make.
Activate an alarm if it can be done safely without alerting the robber.
Observe carefully. Study the robber's face and clothing, note any other distinguishing features, observe the direction of escape, record the license, make, and color of any vehicle used in the robbery, etc. Write down everything you can remember about the robber and the crime itself.
Lock the door and call 911 immediately after the robber leaves. Call the police before you call the owner or anyone else.
Preserve the scene. Discontinue regular business until officers have searched the scene. Cover any surfaces the robber may have touched and keep away from areas where the robber may have been.
Ask witnesses to remain. Get names and phone numbers if they are unable to remain. Ask to see their driver's licenses or other ID to verify this information.
Don't discuss the robbery with others until all statements have been taken.

Clodbuster
07-14-2008, 2:50 PM
Sounds like the general tips should be re-written:

Act calmly. If you have a firearm behind the counter, move it into a position to startle the robber and pacify the situation. If you don't own a firearm, bend over and take it with a smile.:rolleyes:



Clod


http://www.sandiego.gov/police/prevention/robbery.shtml
San diego, all the way at bottom of page

What to Do If You Are Robbed
The first thing to do is to train your employees on what to do in the event of a robbery. Every robbery is different. You will need to assess yourself, the robber, and the situation to determine what you should do. Here are some general tips:

Act calmly. Do exactly what the robber says. Keep your movements short and smooth to avoid startling the robber.
Do not resist. Cooperate for you own safety and the safety of others. Robbers usually are excited and easily provoked. Tell the robber about any movements you plan to make.
Activate an alarm if it can be done safely without alerting the robber.
Observe carefully. Study the robber's face and clothing, note any other distinguishing features, observe the direction of escape, record the license, make, and color of any vehicle used in the robbery, etc. Write down everything you can remember about the robber and the crime itself.
Lock the door and call 911 immediately after the robber leaves. Call the police before you call the owner or anyone else.
Preserve the scene. Discontinue regular business until officers have searched the scene. Cover any surfaces the robber may have touched and keep away from areas where the robber may have been.
Ask witnesses to remain. Get names and phone numbers if they are unable to remain. Ask to see their driver's licenses or other ID to verify this information.
Don't discuss the robbery with others until all statements have been taken.

Piper
07-14-2008, 3:02 PM
This bit of "wisdom" didn't exactly work for the victim of a home invasion robery this morning in Ontario. She was shot in the back with a shotgun by a very large male black as she was trying to run away. Maybe some should tell LE everytime they spout this trash that it's Bravo Sierra, and stats have proven that defenseless victims have a greater chance of dieing.

bulgron
07-14-2008, 3:32 PM
Now I want to see the recommendations that LEO follows if HE'S being robbed.

For that matter, I wonder what these guys tell their kids as they're leaving home to start a life of their own? Do they say:

a) "Suzie, now that you're an adult out in the world on your own, I want you to realize that should someone rob you, or even rape you, the best thing you can do is let them do and take whatever they want without resistance"

b) "Suzie, now that you're an adult out in the world on your own, some people might try to rob or even rape you. Here's a 9mm Glock. Make sure to stay calm and aim for center of mass."

I know which one I'm raising MY kids to do....

fairfaxjim
07-14-2008, 7:17 PM
http://www.sandiego.gov/police/prevention/robbery.shtml
San diego, all the way at bottom of page

What to Do If You Are Robbed
The first thing to do is to train your employees on what to do in the event of a robbery. Every robbery is different. You will need to assess yourself, the robber, and the situation to determine what you should do. Here are some general tips:

Act calmly. Do exactly what the robber says. Keep your movements short and smooth to avoid startling the robber.
Do not resist. Cooperate for you own safety and the safety of others. Robbers usually are excited and easily provoked. Tell the robber about any movements you plan to make.
Activate an alarm if it can be done safely without alerting the robber.
Observe carefully. Study the robber's face and clothing, note any other distinguishing features, observe the direction of escape, record the license, make, and color of any vehicle used in the robbery, etc. Write down everything you can remember about the robber and the crime itself.
Lock the door and call 911 immediately after the robber leaves. Call the police before you call the owner or anyone else.
Preserve the scene. Discontinue regular business until officers have searched the scene. Cover any surfaces the robber may have touched and keep away from areas where the robber may have been.
Ask witnesses to remain. Get names and phone numbers if they are unable to remain. Ask to see their driver's licenses or other ID to verify this information.
Don't discuss the robbery with others until all statements have been taken.

Wow, you're getting robbed, and most of the suggestion are for making their job easier.

My favorite part is: "Lock the door and call 911 immediately after the robber leaves." F*****g Genius!!

6172crew
07-14-2008, 7:23 PM
LOL this needs to be forwarded back to the PD after we are done with it....who writes this stuff?:chris:

BlueOvalBruin
07-14-2008, 8:20 PM
Evidence tampering. Brass stays down...

What if you reload? I'm kind of a brass whore.

CitaDeL
07-14-2008, 8:28 PM
This text reminds me a little of various movies depicting futuristic scenarios...

Placcidly soothing automated messages issue suggestions while violent carnage unfolds:

Staccato of automatic gunfire
Remain calm.
The whine of near misses...KA-BOOM!
Help is imminent.
People screaming...
Please follow the white line.
People running franticaly- seeking escape...
Proceed in an orderly fashion.
Unarmed victims drop like sacks of potatoes...
Your cooperation is appreciated.

It is advice like this that encourages criminals and their behavior. If a crime is made easy by pushover victims there are fewer disincentives for a criminal to overcome. I say raise the stakes for the criminals- arm everyone, tell people to defend themselves and others within the law. In my opinion, this might make a fair fight in the struggle to survive.

Ding126
07-14-2008, 8:31 PM
The sad thing about this...is if you were robbed and the robber was armed. You should have the right to shoot and kill the intruder. Instead you will spend days in jail.Have to hire an attorney..go to court to TRY and prove you had just cause and go into financial ruin.

It should be,, armed robber enters home, is shot and killed by home owner, police give home owner verbal comments on shot placement, shakes his/her hand. Call the coroners office..Over & done with.

DVLDOC
07-14-2008, 8:52 PM
My advice:
*Remain calm
*Draw your weapon
*Aim center of mass
*Discharge firearm until threat is nuetralized
*Reload if needed (you never know if he had a 'lookout' that could come running in to help your assailant)
*As soon as it can safely be done, inform LE of the situation (or have an unarmed bystander do it while you stay alert for further threats).
*Immediately contact the attorney you keep on speed dial.

+1 :banghead::37:

dilligaffrn
07-15-2008, 10:33 AM
You are on your own...

Thank god for Heller!


The Right to Self-Defense
Monday, July 18, 2005
By Wendy McElroy

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162325,00.html

On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales,
the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not
have a constitutional right to police protection, even
in the presence of a restraining order.

By a vote of 7-to-2, the Supreme Court ruled that
Gonzales has no right to sue her local police
department for failing to protect her and her children
from her estranged husband.

The post-mortem discussion on Gonzales has been fiery
but it has missed an obvious point. If the government
won't protect you, then you have to take
responsibility for your own self-defense and that of
your family. The court's ruling is a sad decision, but
one that every victim and/or potential victim of
violence must note: calling the police is not enough.
You must also be ready to defend yourself.

In 1999, Gonzales obtained a restraining order against
her estranged husband Simon, which limited his access
to their children. On June 22, 1999, Simon abducted
their three daughters. Though the Castle Rock police
department disputes some of the details of what
happened next, the two sides are in basic agreement:
After her daughters' abduction, Gonzales repeatedly
phoned the police for assistance. Officers visited the
home. Believing Simon to be non-violent and, arguably,
in compliance with the limited access granted by the
restraining order, the police did nothing.

The next morning, Simon committed "suicide by cop." He
shot a gun repeatedly through a police station window
and was killed by returned fire. The murdered bodies
of Leslie, 7, Katheryn, 9 and Rebecca, 10 were found
in Simon's pickup truck.

In her lawsuit, Gonzales claimed the police violated
her 14th Amendment right to due process and sued them
for $30 million. She won at the Appeals level.

What were the arguments that won and lost in the
Supreme Court?

Winners: local officials fell back upon a rich history
of court decisions that found the police to have no
constitutional obligation to protect individuals from
private individuals. In 1856, the U.S. Supreme Court
(South v. Maryland) found that law enforcement
officers had no affirmative duty to provide such
protection. In 1982 (Bowers v. DeVito), the Court of
Appeals, Seventh Circuit held, "...there is no
Constitutional right to be protected by the state
against being murdered by criminals or madmen."

Later court decisions have concurred.

Losers: anti-domestic violence advocates and women's
groups, such as the National Association of Women
Lawyers, failed to establish that restraining orders
were constitutional entitlements. If they had
succeeded, the enforcement of such orders would have
been guaranteed by due process. Failure to enforce
them would have been grounds for a lawsuit against the
police, a precedent that local officials feared would
flood them with expensive litigation.

Public analysis of Rock v. Gonzales has been largely
defined by these two opposing positions.

A third position cries out: Given the court's position
that the police are not obliged to protect us,
responsible adults need the ability to defend
themselves. Thus, no law or policy should impede the
access to gun ownership.

Responsible adults — both male and female — have both
a right and a need to defend themselves and their
families, with lethal force if necessary. If domestic
violence advocates had focused on putting a gun in
Jessica's hand and training her to use it, then the
three Gonzales children might still be alive. After
all, Jessica knew where her husband was. Indeed, she
informed the police repeatedly of his location.

Of course, the Gonzales case — in and of itself —
presents difficulties for the use of armed force by
private citizens. Would the same police who believed
Simon Gonzales was not dangerous have believed Jessica
to be justified in picking up a gun to protect her
children from him? Would the police have charged her
for use of a weapon? Regardless, these sticky debates
would probably be taking place in the presence of
three living children and not three dead ones.

Nevertheless, most anti-domestic violence advocates
strenuously avoid gun ownership as a possible solution
to domestic violence. Instead, they appeal for more
police intervention even though the police have no
obligation to provide protection.

When groups like the National Organization for Women
(NOW) do focus on gun ownership, it is to make such
statements as, "Guns and domestic violence make a
lethal combination, injuring and killing women every
day."

In short, NOW addresses the issue of gun ownership and
domestic violence only in order to demand a
prohibition on the ability of abusers — always defined
as men — to own weapons.

That position may be defensible. But it ignores half
of the equation. It ignores the need of potential
victims to defend themselves and their families.
Anti-domestic violence and women's groups create the
impression that guns are always part of the problem
and never part of the solution.

The current mainstream of feminism — from which most
anti-domestic violence advocates proceed — is an
expression of left liberalism. It rejects private
solutions based on individual rights in favor of laws
aimed at achieving social goals. A responsible
individual holding a gun in self-defense does not fit
their vision of society.

In the final analysis, such advocates do not trust the
judgment of the women they claim to be defending. They
do not believe that Jessica Gonzales' three children
would have been safer with a mother who was armed and
educated in gun use.

The clear message of Gonzales bears repeating because
you will not hear it elsewhere. The police have no
obligation to protect individuals who, therefore,
should defend themselves. The content of state laws
does not matter; by Colorado State law, the police are
required to "use every reasonable means to enforce a
protection order." The Supreme Court has ruled and
that's that.

In the wake of Gonzales, every anti-domestic violence
advocate should advise victims — male or female — to
learn self-defense. They should lobby for the repeal
of any law or policy that hinders responsible gun
ownership.

The true meaning of being anti-domestic violence means
is to help victims out of their victimhood and into a
position of power.

USN 1986-1997

What Is A Veteran?

A "Veteran" -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to, and including his or her life."

domokun
07-15-2008, 11:01 AM
My advice:
*Remain calm
*Draw your weapon
*Aim center of mass
*Discharge firearm until threat is nuetralized
*Reload if needed (you never know if he had a 'lookout' that could come running in to help your assailant)
*As soon as it can safely be done, inform LE of the situation (or have an unarmed bystander do it while you stay alert for further threats).
*Immediately contact the attorney you keep on speed dial.

Yep. If there's a bad guy, he's always has a friend hiding somewhere. Gotta find them before they find you! :)

domokun
07-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Sounds similar to recommendations a few years back on what to do if you were getting raped.... :eek:

I think they changed that after some public outcry.

Clod

Based on the what Clodbuster said...Here's what it might look when you substitute rape/rapist for robbery/robber with the same text.

Rape

Rape is the felonious sexual assault on another individual and against his will, accomplished by means of force or fear.

During a rape:

* Remain calm and listen to the rapist's demands. If you panic, you increase the possibility of violence.
* Avoid making sudden movements.
* Do not resist a rapist's efforts to take you sexually against your will.
* Do not offer items which are not specifically requested.
* Observe the suspect's physical description (i.e. sex, race, age, and clothing worn.)
* Without placing yourself in danger, attempt to notice the license plate number and description of the suspect's car, if one is seen.


After a rape has occurred:

* Go to a safe location as close as possible to the rape scene and call 911.
* Keep all witnesses at the scene until the police can interview them. If a witness has to leave, get their name, address, and phone number.
* Don't touch or move any evidence.
* Write down a complete description of the suspect, weapon, if any, and vehicle used.


Either way, I too am tired of having the police train us to be obedient victims so people won't fight back and cause a mess for them to clean up.

surfinguru
07-15-2008, 11:53 AM
Glad I could spark such debate.

dilligaffrn, thanks for the excellent post! Really solidifies how the "victim" mentality is perpetuated.

Alan Block
07-15-2008, 12:05 PM
after yelling Ready, Aim....

Clodbuster
07-15-2008, 12:34 PM
Actually by running away, she didn't exactly provide the loyal slave (to live and die at the Master's beckon call) mentality that's being outlined for people who chose to be un-armed.
Courses on correct kneeling and begging for mercy techniques should be offered to train people properly.

Clod



This bit of "wisdom" didn't exactly work for the victim of a home invasion robery this morning in Ontario. She was shot in the back with a shotgun by a very large male black as she was trying to run away. Maybe some should tell LE everytime they spout this trash that it's Bravo Sierra, and stats have proven that defenseless victims have a greater chance of dieing.

Clodbuster
07-15-2008, 12:42 PM
That's pretty close to what was being rambled about a few years back. A woman (forgot if she was a politician or just a spokesperson ) was going around the news and talk show circuit saying that resisting a rape will only get you hurt or killed so don't resist....just focus on collecting as much info for the cops to identify the rapist.

Clod


Based on the what Clodbuster said...Here's what it might look when you substitute rape/rapist for robbery/robber with the same text.



Either way, I too am tired of having the police train us to be obedient victims so people won't fight back and cause a mess for them to clean up.

SkyStorm82
07-15-2008, 3:33 PM
It should be,, armed robber enters home, is shot and killed by home owner, police give home owner verbal comments on shot placement, shakes his/her hand. Call the coroners office..Over & done with.

That happened in my area several years back....before I was on. I did meet the woman though and asked her about it. No one on my dept gave her a hard time and everyone basically said nice shot. She became a mini-celebrity on her street with her neighbors too.

ZapThyCat
07-15-2008, 4:21 PM
I remember when I was into snakes... you always had to kill the mice before you fed them to the snakes, otherwise the snakes could get injured while getting their meal. Made me wonder how they survived in the wild...

It made me realize that people that choose the occupation of victimizing others have to be REAL careful whom they choose. If there is a CHANCE that their victim could fight back, they would rather not attack in the first place. Remember: they are only after their next meal. You are defending your life. Your motivations are much stronger than theirs.

rjf
07-16-2008, 7:09 AM
Killing mice is only to protect your snake investment. They eat live ones just fine.

ZapThyCat
07-16-2008, 7:19 AM
Snakes as an investment. Sheesh. The forums I went to were trading them back and forth for hundreds of dollars. What the heck! I just wanted a snake...

Salty
07-16-2008, 4:09 PM
Remember, it’s one thing to talk about self defense here, but don’t forget to tell your friends and loved ones how important self defense is. For every story I read in the newspaper of an obedient victim coming out alright, I read another where they gave up the money or what not and still got shot/stabbed/killed.

Guntech
07-16-2008, 5:25 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

GuyW
07-16-2008, 5:46 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

Sorry - this all smells like FUD. Got any backup on this?

AJAX22
07-16-2008, 5:50 PM
[QUOTE=Guntech;1364688] the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. QUOTE]

There are rights, and then there are abilities. I'd rather be able to do what I have to do than be unable to perform though I have an acknowledged right to do so.

eta34
07-16-2008, 5:52 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

FUD

SkyStorm82
07-16-2008, 5:54 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

If you're in a situation where you have to use a firearm to save your life, you shoot until the threat stops. Nothing more, nothing less.

It used to be in in training (military/LEO) that if you were hit, you were out of the game. That just sets you up for failure. Now it's if you get hit, you fight through and stay in the game.

Just because someone takes a bullet, doesn't mean they still can't kill you.

Nose Nuggets
07-16-2008, 6:22 PM
"why did you shoot the guy 8 times"

"i didn't think 7 would be enough and i though 9 would be too many"

DesertGunner
07-16-2008, 6:39 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

Maybe you should take off the tinfoil hat, work on your grammar and not give legal advice when you don't have a clue.

M. Sage
07-16-2008, 6:40 PM
This bit of "wisdom" didn't exactly work for the victim of a home invasion robery this morning in Ontario. She was shot in the back with a shotgun by a very large male black as she was trying to run away. Maybe some should tell LE everytime they spout this trash that it's Bravo Sierra, and stats have proven that defenseless victims have a greater chance of dieing.

Turning to run is one of the worst things you can do. I was just read Grossman's book, and he says that turning and running actually can trigger your death. It only makes an attacker bolder, and they don't have to see your face while they kill you...

GuyW
07-16-2008, 8:56 PM
Yeah but you will probably lose in court since were in Kali, the DA will say you did not have the right to take his/her life even though they would/could have taken yours. Follow up shots could be iffy. For example if you already shoot them and you shoot them again and kill them they could say it was unauthorized force since they were already shot, even if they were still coming at you. But then again probably have a better chance of not going in the slammer if you leave no one to testify against you.

FUD indeed:

"A sample, from the California Constitution, which California courts have indeed found to secure a constitutional right to self-defense (emphasis added): 'All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.'"

http://volokh.com/posts/1216216736.shtml