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View Full Version : Reloaded HD ammo?


sammy
07-11-2008, 8:23 PM
I am most profecent with my Les Baer TRS at the moment. The gun only sees my 200g LSWC reloads and runs 100% with them. I don't want to spend the $200 or so bucks finding a self defense round that will run in the gun. Am I loosing anything by running a warm (950 fps.) 200g LSWC in the gun that I know will run, or do I need to spend the coin to get a dedicated HD round? Thanks, Sammy

1lostinspace
07-11-2008, 8:40 PM
stick with what works

tiko
07-11-2008, 9:34 PM
For home defense, you want hollow point to expand the bullet and stay inside the body, not over penetrated, also you want low speed and heavy grains, so all the kinetic energy will transfer to the body and knock it down.

ldivinag
07-11-2008, 9:40 PM
i forget which tv show that runs on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL, but they recommend for HOME DEFENSE, or any CCW ammo, that you buy store bought ammo.

reason?

if you do HAVE to use it, and it goes to court, you can be questioned on so many things like, did you use too much powder, did you use the right bullet, etc...

in fact, the show even recommend you keep like 5 rounds from the box, and save the box too.

that way, you cant get into trouble due to your ammo use...


personally, i find that to be a good advice. reload all your range and practice ammo. but when it comes time to actually use for defense... i'd want factory stuff...

JTROKS
07-11-2008, 9:44 PM
If your gun can feed LSWC it should be able to feed most hollow points. I'd stick to store bought stuff, unless you run out and have to use home brewed stuff. To tell you the truth I'd rather use my own handloads since I know they will work.

What Just Happened?
07-11-2008, 9:44 PM
I would go with a hollowpoint round. You want a round that will expand when it hits the target to increase the wounding capability and decrease the chance of overpenetration. That's why hollowpoints are used.

But do make sure that you test out the rounds in your home defense gun. You don't want the rounds to hangup on the feed ramp or something when you depend on 100% functioning.

CalNRA
07-11-2008, 9:52 PM
buy whatever your local store carries and you find reliable, preferrably a box of ammo that says "personal defense", and like others said keep 4-5 rounds of the stock rounds in the box just in case.

J-cat
07-11-2008, 10:50 PM
For home defense, you want hollow point to expand the bullet and stay inside the body, not over penetrated, also you want low speed and heavy grains, so all the kinetic energy will transfer to the body and knock it down.

Lightweight bullets penetrate less than heavy bullets.

mblat
07-11-2008, 10:56 PM
Hey, he is running .45! Why does he needs special HD round? I thought .45 kills on touch!!!! :D

Here list of the "good bullets":

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

Spend $50 for on couple boxes - run one though to make sure that it runs flawlessly in you gun - you found your cartridge.
Then it is only matter of finding "cheaper" version with similar recoil.

J-cat
07-11-2008, 11:02 PM
i forget which tv show that runs on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL, but they recommend for HOME DEFENSE, or any CCW ammo, that you buy store bought ammo.

reason?

if you do HAVE to use it, and it goes to court, you can be questioned on so many things like, did you use too much powder, did you use the right bullet, etc...

in fact, the show even recommend you keep like 5 rounds from the box, and save the box too.

that way, you cant get into trouble due to your ammo use...


personally, i find that to be a good advice. reload all your range and practice ammo. but when it comes time to actually use for defense... i'd want factory stuff...



It is really naive to think that the use of politically correct ammunition will improve your chances of winning a self-defense argument.

Spyder
07-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Use what works. If your home loaded ammo is flawless and you've fired thousands of rounds of it, use it. Unless you want to buy and fire an equal number of rounds of factory stuff, that is...

mblat
07-12-2008, 12:02 AM
It is really naive to think that the use of politically correct ammunition will improve your chances of winning a self-defense argument.

No it is really naive to think that modern jury will be smart enough to throw away "gun nut producing his own deadly variety of ammo" argument away. If you WILL get in court why give prosecutor one more argument, no matter how ridiculous it sounds to you and me?

1lostinspace
07-12-2008, 12:07 AM
For home defense, you want hollow point to expand the bullet and stay inside the body, not over penetrated, also you want low speed and heavy grains, so all the kinetic energy will transfer to the body and knock it down.



If you are looking for a good and cheap round the Golden Saber in 185+P is a great choice and will not break the bank. Gold dots, Winchester Ranger ammo, hell even Hydrashock. I choose 90gr RBCD ammo. I prefer a light fast fragmenting round instead of the deep penetrating round ( Got kids in the house) Everyone will tell you that the round must penetrate 12" for me 10" with a huge fragmenting hole is all I need. And yes it's a snake oil round but after my own personal tests I am sold on it.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/gelati4.jpg

i like the 110 gr version as well

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff166/ar15reloader/gelati3-1.jpg

for me it would be the last round I would want to get hit with, kind of hard to put you back together after one of those.:43:

gd-bh
07-12-2008, 6:47 AM
It is really naive to think that the use of politically correct ammunition will improve your chances of winning a self-defense argument.

I don't think the concept of using commercially purchased ammunition for self defense is designed to improve your chances of successfully defending your actions. The overall question whether you use your hands or an RPG to take out the attacker is going to remain the same.

However, in the myriad of details, and the over analysis of often unqualified and ignorant "monday morning quarterbacks" that will have months and months to think about and analyze your life changing, split-second decision to use deadly force, I believe it's a wise idea to limit their options as much as possible. By using factory loads, you have zero control over how those bullets performed.

Let the lottery winn.....oops...grieving family of your attacker have a go at the ammunition company's lawyers as they argue that the round was cruel and designed to kill poor Johnnie (who by the way was a good boy and would never hurt a fly, and I'm sure him being in your house at 3 am uninvited and armed was just a mistake) instead of you. I suspect they have much deeper pockets and a lot of scientific data that those MMQb's would be impressed by.

Given the morally corrupt environment we exist in, this seems like a very logical strategy to minimize the pain in a painful situation. But as you suggest, don't think for a split second think the ammo in the gun will change the ultimate question regarding justification.

Sobriquet
07-12-2008, 6:53 AM
Save yourself a lot of hassle and research. I have an 18 page thread on .45acp JHP ammo for home defense on another forum.

Go on Ammo To Go and buy Federal HST 230gr jhp ammo. Standard pressure is my choice, but there's a +P variant.

Stay safe.

elsolo
07-12-2008, 7:21 AM
Chances are you will never need to use your HD ammo anyway.
If you want to justify not buying a few boxes of commercial ammo for piece of mind over this issue; just remind yourself that your choice of ammo is the least important part of surviving a HD situation, and that's the most important thing.

CSACANNONEER
07-12-2008, 7:40 AM
Isn't it funny that all the experts here are telling the OP to use HPs? The OP has already stated that he didn't want to burn up a lot of cash to find a HP/HDR that is 100% reliable in his gun. I'd rather shoot ammo that feeds and fires flawlessly than have a jammed gun full of expensive HD ammo. I'm torn between the "factory" load and home load thing. Yes, using factory ammo could help you in court. But, using your trusted hard cast ammo also has benefits. A little birdie once told me that it is impossible for a crime lab (he works in a government balistic crime lab) to trace a lead bullet back to the gun it came from. Although I've got nothing to hide and am not worried about any bullet I fire being traced back to me, it's an interesting piece of information.

Citadelgrad87
07-12-2008, 7:45 AM
I think a decent attorney could keep the focus on the real question a jury faces: was it reasonable to use deadly force to protect the shooter or his/her family.

What means you use once the answer to that question is "yes" is really irrelevent.

Plus, this particular OP is asking about avoiding HPs, and using Semi Wads, NOBODY is going to trip over themselves to be an expert witness that those are designed to do anythiung particularly nasty to the human body. I wouldn't be worried any more than if I had used Ranger or whatever in an identical shoot.

Two Shots
07-12-2008, 8:21 AM
Stick with the LSWC they'll work fine, Remember the military used Hardball for thier 45 and it worked fine for years. LSWC will cause enough damage, if you can't get it done in seven shots with a 45 then it's time to run. What looks better in court? A guy that target shoots with his own target load or a guy that went out and bought special rounds for protection, Which a lawyer will say he had bought the ammo with the intent to be able to kill a person with it. As long as the rounds and pistol function 100% stick with the LSWC's, your not undergunned with this combo.

-hanko
07-12-2008, 2:55 PM
i forget which tv show that runs on the OUTDOOR CHANNEL, but they recommend for HOME DEFENSE, or any CCW ammo, that you buy store bought ammo.

reason?

if you do HAVE to use it, and it goes to court, you can be questioned on so many things like, did you use too much powder, did you use the right bullet, etc...

in fact, the show even recommend you keep like 5 rounds from the box, and save the box too.

that way, you cant get into trouble due to your ammo use...


personally, i find that to be a good advice. reload all your range and practice ammo. but when it comes time to actually use for defense... i'd want factory stuff...
Personally, I find that to be an Internet rumor;). A better idea is to find a bullet that is reliable, practice with it, and know that it will take care of you if the threat arises.

Usually when this thead pops up (about once every 3 weeks or so) a standard response concerns worrying about a trial right after you use your gun for self-defense.

Can you cite a single case where reloaded ammo was used against the shooter??:confused:

-hanko

J-cat
07-12-2008, 10:08 PM
I don't think the concept of using commercially purchased ammunition for self defense is designed to improve your chances of successfully defending your actions. The overall question whether you use your hands or an RPG to take out the attacker is going to remain the same.

However, in the myriad of details, and the over analysis of often unqualified and ignorant "monday morning quarterbacks" that will have months and months to think about and analyze your life changing, split-second decision to use deadly force, I believe it's a wise idea to limit their options as much as possible. By using factory loads, you have zero control over how those bullets performed.

Let the lottery winn.....oops...grieving family of your attacker have a go at the ammunition company's lawyers as they argue that the round was cruel and designed to kill poor Johnnie (who by the way was a good boy and would never hurt a fly, and I'm sure him being in your house at 3 am uninvited and armed was just a mistake) instead of you. I suspect they have much deeper pockets and a lot of scientific data that those MMQb's would be impressed by.

Given the morally corrupt environment we exist in, this seems like a very logical strategy to minimize the pain in a painful situation. But as you suggest, don't think for a split second think the ammo in the gun will change the ultimate question regarding justification.

So what's more politically correct:

A target load consisting of a cast SWC at a moderate velocity?

Or

Pure evil +P+ JHP doing 200 FPS above norm as marketed by Double-Tap Ammo?

What would an ignorant jury find more offensive?

dgey
07-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Stay with store bought ammo. The lawyers will have an easier time with it. How many of of us have been in court and have had to deal with lawyers...?
It's not what the lawyer says but what the jury will believe. Have you seen jurors today...? They are suppose to be your peers... fat chance...

gd-bh
07-13-2008, 7:54 AM
So what's more politically correct:

A target load consisting of a cast SWC at a moderate velocity?

Or

Pure evil +P+ JHP doing 200 FPS above norm as marketed by Double-Tap Ammo?

What would an ignorant jury find more offensive?

I'm neither a lawyer or a reloading expert. My experience with the court system has been limited to a few speeding tickets, a divorce, and 3 or 4 trips to jury duty. I have however served on a jury in a criminal case where 10 of 12 people completely IGNORED physical evidence and two different and conflicting stories from the arresting officer (cops MDT records made it physically impossible for him to have done as he described in either of the two conflicting stories he told on the stand) for various personal reasons. One guy wanted to go on vacation, another girl had a nail appointment, and just said "guilty" to be done with it, etc. There was very open hostility towards the two of us that wanted to look at the facts as presented rather than the "he did something, or the cops wouldn't have arrested him" mentality. And the judge herself was surprised as we took 3 days to get to the hung jury point on this minor crime, and said most murder trial juries take way less than that. That experience really opened my eyes to just how things can go from bad to worse in a bad situation.

Given that juries often have other personal agendas, and may not be made up of the brightest bulbs in the box, ask yourself which scenario is going to be easier for 12 people who may not be technically proficient to ALL agree on as a fact:

"I bought these rounds because XYZ company sells them for "home defense", and I figured they know these work best because they print it on the box, and that's all I wanted them for was to defend myself."

-OR-

"I worked up this load with moderate velocity in mind because I think it'll be less of a problem if I had to use it for home defense".

Now it's the prosecutors turn to start asking questions like what is your profession? What training do you have that would qualify you to know what load make up would be the least lethal or most effective in a home defense situation. Have you ever accidentally overcharged a round? In your experience, does overcharging happen more in reloads than factory ammo? Why do you think no firearm manufacturer warranty's their product with reloaded ammo? How many rounds of ammo do you produce in one day versus how many company XYZ makes? Etc, etc, etc.

Now that's just the criminal trial where the jury has to all agree...In the civil trial, you don't have to have a unanimous verdict...Which gamble do you want to take?

As with anything in life, you must make the decision you feel most comfortable with. Simply because I'm not an expert on ballistics and ammunition, in my case, it makes sense to stay away from personal reloaded ammo in a self defense situation. Yours may be different, and if so, Godspeed!!

JTROKS
07-13-2008, 8:02 AM
If you have to shoot anyone, make sure you shoot to stop, not shoot to injure. You were in fear for your life and your family's safety, not the Blue Ray player nor the super HD LCD screen. I've read that in court the less witness against you the better. I wonder what they mean by that?...

J-cat
07-13-2008, 9:53 AM
California Penal Code:

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

---------------------------

So this reload issue probably won't even come up.