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View Full Version : Rolling your own flat...registration required?


xfilterx
07-11-2008, 8:04 AM
So Adam at HKParts.net is taking preorders for HK94/MP5 style flats and I'm thinking about ordering one. Obviously since they're just flats there's no FFL required and the flats can be shipped directly to your door. My question is, once you do get it rolled and welded, it apparently becomes a gun. So my question is, what's the procedure, if any, for registering this? If it doesn't have a manufacturer or a serial number, what do you do? Is this something that you can just purchase, build, and you're good to go straight up? Any info would be appreciated before I consider buying one.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 8:44 AM
So Adam at HKParts.net is taking preorders for HK94/MP5 style flats and I'm thinking about ordering one. Obviously since they're just flats there's no FFL required and the flats can be shipped directly to your door. My question is, once you do get it rolled and welded, it apparently becomes a gun. So my question is, what's the procedure, if any, for registering this? If it doesn't have a manufacturer or a serial number, what do you do? Is this something that you can just purchase, build, and you're good to go straight up? Any info would be appreciated before I consider buying one.

You do not have to register it if you plan to build a rifle. I do believe though if you build it into a pistol then you must register. Make sure the complete rifle is legally configured for California and the Feds. (Bullet Button, 922r compliance parts, etc.) You do need to have stamped or engraved a model number and some identification number on the receiver.

EDIT to add: If you do need to register it, you can use the "out of state" registration form. Its all the same to do the DOJ. AFAIK there really isn't a document out there to just register a new handgun other than "out of state registration" or "intrafamiliar."

GenLee
07-11-2008, 8:44 AM
IIRC once you bend/roll the flat, you become the manufacturer(name of your choosing) as for the seriel its as well your choosing(# as you feel fit), As far as how to Reg. or DROS, I've got nothin', Taged for a more educated answer than mine.;)

jacques
07-11-2008, 8:49 AM
There is some info here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627

If you decide to put a SN and place of Mfg, you can use what ever SN convention you want.

Gosh, looking at your list, you sure like them HK's

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 8:54 AM
Gosh, looking at your list, you sure like them HK's

LOL! I just noiticed the list in the sig. I'm an H&K fan, but that's a hell of a list.

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 8:56 AM
There is some info here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86627

If you decide to put a SN and place of Mfg, you can use what ever SN convention you want.

Gosh, looking at your list, you sure like them HK's

Growing up H&K's were the guns/rifles in every video game I played and every "guy" movie I ever watched. All the German and South African terrorists in Die Hard, Under Siege, Air Force One, etc. had H&K's. When I was growing up I never new you could actually own one...needless to say...I'm making up for lost time. :D

Ok, I'll read through that post but to be clear, I get the flat, weld it, and then just find someone that can engrave some random manufacturer's name and some random serial number that I pick and I'm good to go?

Yes, I understand about making sure it's legally configured, I had an AR15 at one point and yes I partially understand 922r, I'm finishing up a UMP conversion right now. Thanks for the help on this guys, I've wanted an H&K 94 style rifle since I was a kid and there's nothing more fun than building/configuring your own rifles.

GenLee
07-11-2008, 9:00 AM
Growing up H&K's were the guns/rifles in every video game I played and every "guy" movie I ever watched. All the German and South African terrorists in Die Hard, Under Siege, Air Force One, etc. had H&K's. When I was growing up I never new you could actually own one...needless to say...I'm making up for lost time. :D

Ok, I'll read through that post but to be clear, I get the flat, weld it, and then just find someone that can engrave some random manufacturer's name and some random serial number that I pick and I'm good to go?

Yes, I understand about making sure it's legally configured, I had an AR15 at one point and yes I partially understand 922r, I'm finishing up a UMP conversion right now. Thanks for the help on this guys, I've wanted an H&K 94 style rifle since I was a kid and there's nothing more fun than building/configuring your own rifles.

Let us know how your build comes out. I've built several AR's now and am starting to get the wants for an AK or HK build but Gunsmith/Machinist I am most definatly not!

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 9:06 AM
Let us know how your build comes out. I've built several AR's now and am starting to get the wants for an AK or HK build but Gunsmith/Machinist I am most definatly not!

I'm no gunsmith / machinist either. I'm a software engineer. :(

I'll definately be getting someone to do this for me. I just want to make sure I'm well within the law and everything I'm doing with this build is legit. Now for 922r compliance, is it 3 US-made parts no matter what? Or does the number of US-made parts vary depending on the whether or not the serialized portion of the firearm is imported? Since my receiver will be US-made, do I just need like a US-made trigger and US-made barrel and I'm good to go?

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 9:19 AM
I'm no gunsmith / machinist either. I'm a software engineer. :(

I'll definately be getting someone to do this for me. I just want to make sure I'm well within the law and everything I'm doing with this build is legit. Now for 922r compliance, is it 3 US-made parts no matter what? Or does the number of US-made parts vary depending on the whether or not the serialized portion of the firearm is imported? Since my receiver will be US-made, do I just need like a US-made trigger and US-made barrel and I'm good to go?

No more than 10 parts of the rifle can be imported. When I built my Romy AK I used 6 US made parts. The trigger group(3), receiver(1), slant break(1), and pistol grip (1). There are 16 countable parts on an AK47. (I believe the mag can be 3 parts, but i'm not sure if once the mag is attached that now means you have 3 added total countable parts to the rifle. I just went with 6 parts on the rifle itself to be safe.)

I would assume for an MP5 build it would be right about the same, but I would deffinately do some research on that first.

Heavyhits
07-11-2008, 9:23 AM
You do not have to register it if you plan to build a rifle. I do believe though if you build it into a pistol then you must register. Make sure the complete rifle is legally configured for California and the Feds. (Bullet Button, 922r compliance parts, etc.) You do need to have stamped or engraved a model number and some identification number on the receiver.

EDIT to add: If you do need to register it, you can use the "out of state" registration form. Its all the same to do the DOJ. AFAIK there really isn't a document out there to just register a new handgun other than "out of state registration" or "intrafamiliar."

If that's the case and you register it as an out of state firearm(rifle in this case) could you then turn around and sell it ppt through an FFL1 under the idea that it's now registered in California?

EDIT: Is there any way someone with this info could PM me in addition to replying on the forum? Thanks.

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 9:29 AM
If that's the case and you register it as an out of state firearm(rifle in this case) could you then turn around and sell it ppt through an FFL1 under the idea that it's now registered in California?

Not quite sure I understand the question but, a rifle does not require registration when brought into the state. A rifle doesn't not require registration to sell. If you wanted to register a rifle in that way you could, but why would you want to?

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 9:52 AM
Found this little nugget over on HKPro:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w115/wordsofwarrecords/mp5partscount.jpg

So based on the diagram, I would need to replace 6 of the parts with US-made parts. That would leave 10 imported parts.

Maybe replace receiver, trigger, follower, floorplate, and a couple of others. Sheesh, I'm beginning to think that I might be better off getting a CA94. :mad:

bwiese
07-11-2008, 9:57 AM
Are we absolutely sure this is "way far away" from a working receiver even by a competent metalworker/smith with good tools?

If they're too easy to bend up and drill a few holes in, it's greay.

Remember THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN 80% RECEIVER. That's all BS since there's no way to quantify percentage - by amount of metal removed? by time required? by individual machining steps involved for a given set of tools?

One man's 81% is an idiot's 49% or a skilled machinst w/good tools 90+%.

This is as much a BATF/Fed issue as a state issue: if the metal is regarded as being "close enough" to a receiver then it'll have been illegally transferred across state lines without an FFL.

AJAX22
07-11-2008, 9:57 AM
Registration is not required on homebuilt pistols, only pistols which are purchased, imported, or transfered need to be registered.

you can register it if you prefer (it is not a bad idea) but it is not required.

Heavyhits
07-11-2008, 10:05 AM
Not quite sure I understand the question but, a rifle does not require registration when brought into the state. A rifle doesn't not require registration to sell. If you wanted to register a rifle in that way you could, but why would you want to?

If that's the case...why do you need to register your receiver for an AK-47 or an AR-15 build?

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 10:09 AM
If that's the case...why do you need to register your receiver for an AK-47 or an AR-15 build?

You don't register it, you DROS it. There are no records on file with the DOJ for long rifle purchases. (At least there shouldn't be.) All the DOJ knows is that you are buying a long rifle. In fact the FFL doesn't have to put the make or model number of the long rifle on the paperwork they send to the DOJ.

Registration and DROS are two different things.

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 10:10 AM
Are we absolutely sure this is "way far away" from a working receiver even by a competent metalworker/smith with good tools?

If they're too easy to bend up and drill a few holes in, it's greay.

Remember THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN 80% RECEIVER. That's all BS since there's no way to quantify percentage - by amount of metal removed? by time required? by individual machining steps involved for a given set of tools?

One man's 81% is an idiot's 49% or a skilled machinst w/good tools 90+%.

This is as much a BATF/Fed issue as a state issue: if the metal is regarded as being "close enough" to a receiver then it'll have been illegally transferred across state lines without an FFL.

Bill, here's a picture of the flats:

http://www.hkparts.net/Pictures/HK%2093%2033%2053/Flat%202.JPG

I would figure that this far removed from a working receiver. Especially since the rear stock pin bushing, rear site base, and shelf are separate pieces that would also have to be welded on.
http://www.hkparts.net/Pictures/HK%2093%2033%2053/Weldment%20kit%2093%201.JPG

GenLee
07-11-2008, 10:10 AM
If that's the case...why do you need to register your receiver for an AK-47 or an AR-15 build?

You don't register your AR, All that is known is a DROS (dealer record of sale) on a long gun, Type is not disclosed as I understand. and lends no long term "Registration" of the lower/reciever.

Heavyhits
07-11-2008, 10:14 AM
ok...I'm clear on that now...so with that in mind...can I legally ppt an ak-47 build on a flat receiver..through an FFL1? Because there still has to be a 10 day waiting period, right? Even if it IS a private transfer...I'm sorry to sound so scattered about this, but I hope you understand what I'm asking/ getting at....

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 10:22 AM
ok...I'm clear on that now...so with that in mind...can I legally ppt an ak-47 build on a flat receiver..through an FFL1? Because there still has to be a 10 day waiting period, right? Even if it IS a private transfer...I'm sorry to sound so scattered about this, but I hope you understand what I'm asking/ getting at....

If you build the rifle yourself from a flat and want to sell it to someone else, you can. I do believe it has to have the proper markings on the receiver. There is a 10 day waiting period for any firearm person to person except for 50+ year old long guns or ATF listed C&R long guns.

D.R.O.S. means Dealer Record of Sale (obviously), but when most people say "I started my DROS on my AK-47" they really mean "I started my backround check and I'm waiting 10 days."

gn3hz3ku1*
07-11-2008, 10:23 AM
i believe and please correct me if im wrong... if you are bending/welding a flat, YOU have to be the one doing the work right?

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 10:34 AM
i believe and please correct me if im wrong... if you are bending/welding a flat, YOU have to be the one doing the work right?

If that's the case, forget it. I got no skills to be able to do this myself.

GenLee
07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
ok...I'm clear on that now...so with that in mind...can I legally ppt an ak-47 build on a flat receiver..through an FFL1? Because there still has to be a 10 day waiting period, right? Even if it IS a private transfer...I'm sorry to sound so scattered about this, but I hope you understand what I'm asking/ getting at....

If you buy a flat, Bend/roll it, YOU are the manufacturer, There is no DROS. (Dealer Rocord of Sale) as there is no dealer or ppt, as there is no transfer, You put what you want as manufacturer markings and seriel #'s ie your b-date, Lucky # etc. If you later sell it it will be eligable for a ppt and dros. IIRC

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 10:42 AM
If that's the case, forget it. I got no skills to be able to do this myself.

The "build parties" people have are for the purpose of doing it yourself, with someone's help. ;)

GenLee
07-11-2008, 10:44 AM
i believe and please correct me if im wrong... if you are bending/welding a flat, YOU have to be the one doing the work right?

You have to be present.

justinLB
07-11-2008, 10:57 AM
Does anyone have a link to the registration form?

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 11:03 AM
You have to be present.

I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this whole situation, like it's not worth it. I may just go buy a clone and be done with it.

GenLee
07-11-2008, 11:10 AM
I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this whole situation, like it's not worth it. I may just go buy a clone and be done with it.

My feelings exactly, I want an AK, but no build parties in the near future, I seem to be late on the complete one's for sale hear. So hint hint on complete AK's in or near San Diego.:D Thread Jacked...oops

caliboy1321
07-11-2008, 11:25 AM
The flats from hkflats.com looks easier to bend, they are included tabs so that you can easily line up the center, so it just a matter of some welding

AYEAREFIFTEEN
07-11-2008, 11:28 AM
Does anyone have a link to the registration form?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 11:31 AM
The flats from hkflats.com looks easier to bend, they are included tabs so that you can easily line up the center, so it just a matter of some welding

Yeah lemme go down to Sears and see about some welding gear. That'll go over real well with the Mrs. Man, I hang around nerds all day...I'm a software engineer...I wouldn't even know the first place to start to find a welder that would do this for me. As dumb as I am with this stuff, I'd end up at Meineke or Aamco asking about welding my receiver. :D

domokun
07-11-2008, 11:47 AM
Look at Harbor Freight Tools. They'll do the job and they don't cost you an arm and a leg. Find your closest store here:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/retail_stores.taf#CA

ke6guj
07-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Does anyone have a link to the registration form?


To voluntarily register a handgun that you made, you would use http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

xfilterx
07-11-2008, 12:31 PM
Look at Harbor Freight Tools. They'll do the job and they don't cost you an arm and a leg. Find your closest store here:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/retail_stores.taf#CA

There's a Harbor Freight right down the road from me. That might be an option. Will they freak once they know what they're welding?

caliboy1321
07-11-2008, 2:37 PM
shhhhhh who is telling

Heavyhits
07-11-2008, 2:57 PM
Do I have to register a rifle I made in order to PPT it later to someone else? Or do I just make up my own serial# on it and that's what is used when I PPT it? (Assuming I'm using a flat)

GenLee
07-11-2008, 2:59 PM
Do I have to register a rifle I made in order to PPT it later to someone else? Or do I just make up my own serial# on it and that's what is used when I PPT it? (Assuming I'm using a flat)

Please see my post 13 post's ago.

Heavyhits
07-11-2008, 3:04 PM
If you buy a flat, Bend/roll it, YOU are the manufacturer, There is no DROS. (Dealer Rocord of Sale) as there is no dealer or ppt, as there is no transfer, You put what you want as manufacturer markings and seriel #'s ie your b-date, Lucky # etc. If you later sell it it will be eligable for a ppt and dros. IIRC



Ummm....glasses for a reason:oops:

Thank you...