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View Full Version : Storing bullets in an AR while transporting.


FlyingPen
07-09-2008, 9:18 PM
With things like LMT SOPMODS, Tango Down Battle grips, and Magpul MIADs which allow storage of emergency bullets within the rifle, would this be considered a "loaded" weapon while in storage?

Are the laws specific that that a "loaded" weapon is one which has bullets in a magazine on the firearm or could a storage device like a MIAD which is designed to hold 3-4 bullets within the pistol grip be irrationally interpreted as loaded?

5150Marcelo
07-09-2008, 9:21 PM
Yes, it would be considered loaded. Your firearm is supposed to be locked seperately from ammunition.

FEDUPWBS
07-09-2008, 9:24 PM
Yes, it would be considered loaded. Your firearm is supposed to be locked seperately from ammunition.

Wrong. As long as the loaded mag is not inserted in the gun and no round is chambered it is not considered loaded.

Suvorov
07-09-2008, 9:28 PM
If it was me, I'd be putting spare cartridges in the stock for emergency instead of bullets, but that's just me...... ;)


Sorry, couldn't resist.

BroncoBob
07-09-2008, 9:29 PM
Yep, no ammo with firearm while transporting.

M. Sage
07-09-2008, 9:37 PM
Wrong. As long as the loaded mag is not inserted in the gun and no round is chambered it is not considered loaded.

Exactly.

5150Marcelo
07-09-2008, 9:45 PM
Wrong. As long as the loaded mag is not inserted in the gun and no round is chambered it is not considered loaded.

I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. a loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.

blackberg
07-09-2008, 9:55 PM
Wrong. As long as the loaded mag is not inserted in the gun and no round is chambered it is not considered loaded.

This is what is considered correct. Although Ive read that if you are considered a "gangmember" there is a special classification where it does not apply
-bb

tombinghamthegreat
07-09-2008, 10:00 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Also People v. Clark (1996)

USE the search button;) Also read it all there are exemptions to this, such as commiting a crime and the state capital.

Spelunker
07-09-2008, 10:21 PM
From what I understand with an AR you cannot have the bullets in the same case, but handguns and other rifles you can have the bullets in the same case as the gun.

tombinghamthegreat
07-09-2008, 10:44 PM
From what I understand with an AR you cannot have the bullets in the same case, but handguns and other rifles you can have the bullets in the same case as the gun.

Where does it say that in the penal code?

ghettoshecky
07-09-2008, 10:46 PM
From what I understand with an AR you cannot have the bullets in the same case, but handguns and other rifles you can have the bullets in the same case as the gun.

perhaps you mean a registered AR or any other registered assault weapon? For the rest of us off listers our ARs are just as good as other long guns, so the same rule should apply. If that rule really only did apply to "AR"s then I would name mine a "BS-15" as an AR would only really be a name. Also it is a definite no to have ammo in the same case as handguns. Handguns for sure have to be in separate locked cases from ammo. I believe OP would be okay to travel with a bullet hidden snugly in his VLTOR stock or any of his grips.

FlyingPen
07-09-2008, 10:47 PM
unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm;

This seems to imply that something like a Mapgul MIAD which stores bullets attached inside the pistol grip is loaded. However it seems People v Clark set the precedent that loaded means magazine in. However I also heard of another piece of case law that was much more oppressive?

fleegman
07-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Handguns for sure have to be in separate locked cases from ammo.

Not my understanding of the law, and as I have previously posted, I regularly transport a pistol in a lock-box, along with 2 fully loaded mags in the same lock-box, all in the passenger compartment. I will take forced disarmament only so far.

ghettoshecky
07-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Not my understanding of the law, and as I have previously posted, I regularly transport a pistol in a lock-box, along with 2 fully loaded mags in the same lock-box, all in the passenger compartment. I will take forced disarmament only so far.

ahh my mistake, you are correct looking at page 49 of the California firearms law book http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf, it seems to only apply within a 1000 ft of a school.

nazgulnarsil
07-09-2008, 11:13 PM
so what's the verdict on this?
it applies to the kel tec su16 as well since the su16 stores magazines in the stock.
can a longarm and ammo be stored in the same case?

aplinker
07-09-2008, 11:32 PM
What has happened to this place?

20 posts and two short correct answers and a bunch of people with "I think it's....." This same question has been asked thousands of times. It couldn't be closer to the actual case involved in People v Clark.

The bottom line is People v Clark determines that a firearm is loaded only if there are cartridges attached to the firearm in such a way that it's capable of being fired.

This means, for an AR, in a magazine in the firearm or in the chamber. Period.

bwiese
07-09-2008, 11:38 PM
5150Marcelo must've had a discount lawyer.

jacques
07-09-2008, 11:54 PM
5150Marcelo must've had a discount lawyer.

Or just got arrested by someone who does not know the law or interpreted it differently than what it really is.

I fear this. I do not carry ammo in my gun case. It just flops around in there anyway. I carry it in an ammo can, along with the mags. That way there is no question.

Spelunker
07-10-2008, 12:02 AM
Since I am wrong and happy to admit it let me ask another question. Can you have an AR, unloaded, sitting in your passenger seat just like a rifle or a shotgun?

fleegman
07-10-2008, 12:11 AM
Since I am wrong and happy to admit it let me ask another question. Can you have an AR, unloaded, sitting in your passenger seat just like a rifle or a shotgun?
Assuming it's a lawfully configured OLL, you betcha! You can even cradle it lovingly in your lap while you drive. It's just another "long gun".

Librarian
07-10-2008, 1:09 AM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. I loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.
That really is horrible. People v Clark was a 1996 case - did your lawyer bring it up in 2002?

What level of court was it? Is the record available somewhere?

Sounds like you got screwed, unless the prosecution found a way to work around Clark - and if so, we really ought to know how that happened.

sorensen440
07-10-2008, 1:17 AM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. I loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.

Did you have a lawyer that specialized in firearms?

Moonclip
07-10-2008, 1:44 AM
5150Marcelo must've had a discount lawyer.

Or he is a gangsta, lol!

M. Sage
07-10-2008, 7:27 AM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. I loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.

It can be considered loaded, but it only will be considered loaded if you're a gang member or if you had the firearm with you during the commission of a crime. Police reports can interpret the law however they want, we all know the police never misinterpret the law... :rolleyes:

People Vs Clark is the case law on this point. In fact, Clark would apply more to the OP's question than anything else. A judge found that a single-shot shotgun with shell storage in the stock was not loaded when shells were being stored in the stock.

so what's the verdict on this?
it applies to the kel tec su16 as well since the su16 stores magazines in the stock.
can a longarm and ammo be stored in the same case?

Longarms and ammo can be transported in the same case. Handguns and ammo can be, too. There is nothing in PC to keep you from doing this.

Magazines in stock is Ok with the Clark decision. Search for People vs Clark and read the decision for yourself.

MudCamper
07-10-2008, 10:04 AM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded.

Of course it CAN. If you also violate 12023/12001(j). But for normal folks, it ain't loaded this way.

Why hasn't anyone linked to Librarians' sticky on this: What is Loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660).

USN CHIEF
07-10-2008, 10:32 AM
Before I became a Member of Cal Guns, I was pulled over by the High Way Patrol back in September of 07. The Officer saw that I had locked rifle containers in the back of my truck. he asked me if I would give him permission to inspect the guns. I said sure, I gave him the keys to unlock the cases. He then instructed me to step out of the vehicle and placed hand cuffs on me:eek: I was like WTF?, he then informed me that I was being arrested for carrying my guns loaded. I had the guns and mags in the same locked container for each gun. He called for back up and this more senior guy showed up and went to check out the guns and he came back about 5 minutes later apologizing and took off the hand cuffs. I ain't going to lie, I was a lil bit scared. He then informed the Officer that placed hand cuffs on me that none of my guns were loaded because the mags were not inserted on the guns.
The initial stop was for speeding. I did not get a ticket, my guns were not taken away and ended up shooting the **** with the senior guy for about 30 minutes and I went on my way after that. I still carry the guns/ammo in the same locked containers.

jacques
07-10-2008, 10:33 AM
The sticky is obvious, all you have to do is look up.

Marcelo was obviously railroaded. Anybody can be arrested for "intent" to commit a felony if the arresting person thinks you are. And if they decide you "look" like a "gang member" well then you are even more screwed.

Correct me if I am wrong Marcello but I do not think you are in jail right now. So charges were probably dropped or some plea bargain reached. But I am sure they did stick it to you and it cost dearly. Details would be good. This is a loop hole so the police can arrest you if they want. Anybody can assume "intent" to commit a felony. Or decide you look like a gang member.

If I am driving in my car and get pulled over with my gun in my front seat and a loaded mag in the back seat, and I happen to be across the street from the bank, any LEO could "assume" I am going to rob that bank. I do not "look" like a gang member, but what does a bank robber look like?

Look what happened to Matt. If they want to arrest you they will. It will cost you exorbinant amounts of money, they will take away your gun and it isn't worth it.


Chief, you were lucky, could you imagine if there was not a senior officer there who actually knew the law?

FlyingPen
07-10-2008, 11:02 AM
If I am driving in my car and get pulled over with my gun in my front seat and a loaded mag in the back seat, and I happen to be across the street from the bank, any LEO could "assume" I am going to rob that bank. I do not "look" like a gang member, but what does a bank robber look like?

http://images.art.com/images/-/Robert-DeNiro---Heat--C10104000.jpeg

jacques
07-10-2008, 11:03 AM
http://images.art.com/images/-/Robert-DeNiro---Heat--C10104000.jpeg

See, that kinda looks like me.

Nodda Duma
07-10-2008, 11:11 AM
I had a mental picture of a shooter running out of ammo and popping a couple of bullets out of the grip to fling at the target.

You meant cartridges, not bullets right? :P

-Jason

Decoligny
07-10-2008, 11:12 AM
Anybody can assume "intent" to commit a felony. Or decide you look like a gang member.

The penal code doesn't have anything in it that criminalizes someone "looking like a gang member".

It specifically addresses "during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22"

So, technically, unless you are actually commiting or attempting to commit the actual crime, the standard 12031 definition of loaded applies.

Guntech
07-10-2008, 11:15 AM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. I loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.\


NO! The DESERT EAGLE!!!!! I'LL GET IT BACK! and keep it:D

jacques
07-10-2008, 11:20 AM
The penal code doesn't have anything in it that criminalizes someone "looking like a gang member".

It specifically addresses "during the commission or attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 186.22"

So, technically, unless you are actually commiting or attempting to commit the actual crime, the standard 12031 definition of loaded applies.

Good links on the bottom of your sig.

tombinghamthegreat
07-10-2008, 1:45 PM
Since I am wrong and happy to admit it let me ask another question. Can you have an AR, unloaded, sitting in your passenger seat just like a rifle or a shotgun?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

Just be careful of the school gun free zone.

artherd
07-10-2008, 1:51 PM
You ought to appeal, the lower court erred on a matter of law and it is easy to prove.

I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. I loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.

Matt C
07-10-2008, 2:15 PM
You ought to appeal, the lower court erred on a matter of law and it is easy to prove.

He probably pled guilty = no appeal.

jacques
07-10-2008, 2:53 PM
He probably pled guilty = no appeal.

He is not blogging from prison and owns firearms now. So that is not the case. He just said

"Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002."

Matt C
07-10-2008, 3:06 PM
He is not blogging from prison and owns firearms now. So that is not the case. He just said

"Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002."

If he plead guilty to a misdemeanor he would still be able to have guns and he would not be in prison. If he was found not guilty he would still have his DE....

jacques
07-10-2008, 3:17 PM
Hard to speculate. Where is Marcelo to esplain all this. :confused:

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 5:31 PM
5150Marcelo must've had a discount lawyer.

no, I had a judge who was a gun collector!!!

sorensen440
07-10-2008, 5:32 PM
no, I had a judge who was a gun collector!!!
That makes no sence

sorensen440
07-10-2008, 5:33 PM
With things like LMT SOPMODS, Tango Down Battle grips, and Magpul MIADs which allow storage of emergency bullets within the rifle, would this be considered a "loaded" weapon while in storage?

Are the laws specific that that a "loaded" weapon is one which has bullets in a magazine on the firearm or could a storage device like a MIAD which is designed to hold 3-4 bullets within the pistol grip be irrationally interpreted as loaded?
Just read this
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 5:36 PM
Police reports can interpret the law however they want, we all know the police never misinterpret the law... :rolleyes:

EXACTLY!!!!!!
I was gettin screwed! What really took place annd what the police report said are two diff stories. I got "F'd" by a rookie cop who half way thru the night decided to drum up some crap, and I paid for it!!!

***Thanks M.Sage... I gotta new sig line!!!***

Moonclip
07-10-2008, 5:39 PM
What PD messed with you?

sorensen440
07-10-2008, 5:39 PM
yeah give us some more details

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 5:45 PM
He probably pled guilty = no appeal.

pled guilty to a lesser charge. Disturbing the peace. *infraction* no misd. or felony... ofcourse

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 5:46 PM
That makes no sence

Ofcourse it wouldnt make sence... but it doesn make SENSE!

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 5:47 PM
Ok... i'll post full story in correct 2A forum. See ya soon.

sorensen440
07-10-2008, 6:02 PM
pled guilty to a lesser charge. Disturbing the peace. *infraction* no misd. or felony... ofcourse

That makes more sence

Matt C
07-10-2008, 6:35 PM
pled guilty to a lesser charge. Disturbing the peace. *infraction* no misd. or felony... ofcourse

That's pretty much what I figured, and IMO everybody better expect the same thing if a cop decides to screw with you while you are open carrying, unless you have REALLY deep pockets for a long legal fight. That is unless you do what I keep saying and get everything on tape. Then you might have a great civil suit.

5150Marcelo
07-10-2008, 8:27 PM
For those who speculate and those who want me to elborate... here ya go.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=110224

Sorry to the OP for the thread jack!

One Shot, One Dropped
07-10-2008, 11:13 PM
I had court dates and paperwork and a police report that says different. Trust me. Straight from judges mouth, "If ammunition is kept with the gun during transport, it CAN be considered loaded. a loaded mag not inserted into the well, but kept together with the firearm during transport, IS considered loaded.
Trust me, I paid dearly for it $$$$$$$$
Oh yeah, freedom is not free, it cost $$$$$ in some cases!
In this case, it also cost me my Desert Eagle. This happened in 2002.

Listen to Marcelo! He has been severely stricken with some knowledge on the current state of the judicial system in the PRK.

hoffmang
07-11-2008, 1:30 AM
As long as there is not a round in the chamber and the magazine with rounds in it isn't in the magazine well, an AR is not loaded per People v. Clark (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf).

sorensen440
07-11-2008, 6:56 AM
Listen to Marcelo! He has been severely stricken with some knowledge on the current state of the judicial system in the PRK.

He got railroaded
the cops lied and said the magazine was in the gun
and then he pleaded to a lesser charge ( I dont blame him for that either)
That in no way shows that it is illegal in any way to store ammo in the same container as a handgun or on a long gun
had he had the ammo in a locked box tied to his front bumper and his pistol in a locked box tied to his rear bumper he may have still had the same outcome
There are no gray areas only the law