NFA Trusts (EDIT: Fee Added)

[oaklander]

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.

:)

EDIT: the fee for these will be $600.

[6172crew]

Do you need a LE sign off for a trust? As a class 3 holder I think you do but not 100%.

Plus I know the ATF wont give you a stamp if its not allowed in your state.

Just some things you prolly already know.:)

[ke6guj]

Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.

[furryrabbit]

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.

:)

Thanks for your effort!

[DesertGunner]

Thats one of the main points of a trust, no LE sign off. No fingerprints or photos either.

ATF has given CA trusts tax stamps for CA-legal NFA items.

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

[Diabolus]

I think you can make a short bbl shotgun.

[thedrickel]

:Ivan:

[JeffM]

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

There is a thread about this if you search.

Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.

[ptoguy2002]

Ooh.
What is the approx cost, normal NFA trust set up, standard, no outside issues, etc to set up a trust for NFA guns?
Thanks

[mauritz45]

good to know, thanks for tackling this.-cam

[ke6guj]

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

Technically, just about everything is CA legal if you have CLEO sign-off and a CADOJ permit.

Practically, only C&R SBS/SBR, DDs under .60", and AOWs (except pen-guns). They also need to comply with the AW regs.

I'd take any more specific NFA firearms questions to the AOW/SBS/SBR thread, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82693 so we don't further hi-jack oaklander's NFA trust thread.

[thedrickel]

Did somebody say "AOW"??? :D

http://i30.tinypic.com/1zzno15.jpg

[ke6guj]

As is, that AK pistol is not an AOW. Planning on putting the forward grip back on? There is another calgunner planning on the same thing, getting an AOW form 1 so he can put the forward grip back on.

[thedrickel]

Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess ;)

[LOW2000]

Mmm, serbu super shorty sounds mighty appealing. Would be nice to have a 12ga in the dresser drawer :43:

ETA: Oh my, I just got giddy at the thought of OCing a serbu super shorty since is not classified as a shotgun and i think there may be no prohibition on the OC of an AOW. :tt1:

[hoffmang]

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[Richy]

Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.

[oaklander]

Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[oaklander]

Hello, also wondering how much would you be charging for your service? I know there are programs that you can buy that will draft a quick Trust for you.

There are some people doing it that way. I would not advise it. Based on my preliminary research, there appear to be some issues specific to NFA Trusts that the off-the-shelf programs do not accommodate. Without going into specifics, you do not want a situation where the operation of a trust could later create an illegality.

I will have more details in a couple of days.

[blackberg]

Not sure yet. I will know in a couple of days. . .

Looking forward for the info.


How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get :D

-bb

[ke6guj]

How about someone coming up with a list of ideas of what to buy. Kind of like a shopping cart...err..wishlist of what to get :D

-bb

Basically any AOW that is not a pen-gun and does not run afoul of the pistol AW regs. AR-pistol AOWs should be ok, but they still need to be fixed-mag.

And C&R SBS/SBRs are ok as well.

And I gues if you really wanted a big boomer, you could make something in 14.5mm Russian or find one of these, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD .

[M. Sage]

Yep, I'd like to put the front grip back on. Still have to keep the BB, but oh well. I'll live I guess ;)

I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?

[ke6guj]

I thought that AOW was exempt from CA's dumb bans?Remember, a federally registered AOW is exempt from only 12020 prohibitions. All other sections of the PC may still apply.

The pistol AW regs may apply per 12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

[M. Sage]

Ah, that's it. I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

[Telperion]

I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?

[adamsreeftank]

PM Sent.
:notworthy:

[oaklander]

The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

If you, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to use commercially available software to generate a revocable living "NFA trust" - by all means, give it a shot - and let me know how it works. . .

:)

BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.

I would be interested, but I would like to know specifics about the "value added" over Quicken Willmaker trusts, which have shown to be perfectly adequate as NFA ownership vehicles in other states.

I understand some lawyers who have advertised specialized NFA trusts have highlighted the issues regarding transfer after the grantor's death. It seems to me that leaving a detailed letter of instruction to the successor trustee along with a partly completed form 5 would take care of these issues. Am I mistaken, and are there other concerns?

[Telperion]

I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

[oaklander]

It is not proper for me to answer specific legal questions here. Nor do I wish to debate the relative costs vs. benefits of using a real lawyer versus using a "lawyer-in-a-box."

The purpose of this thread was simply to give a "status update" to the people who have contacted me in the past about NFA trusts. I'd like to stay on topic.

You sound like you have done a lot of research on NFA trusts. That's a good thing. I would still strongly recommend that you have an experienced attorney look over the resulting document that you create.


I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

[oaklander]

OK - the waiting is over - the fee is $600.

:)

Anyone who is interested is welcome to PM me - I can start immediately!

Hey Oak - how much you charging per?

-Gene

[ptoguy2002]

Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?

[asymmetricalwarfar3]

Do income tax returns need to be filed on trusts, even if there is no money made?

Not necessary.... (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=97303&highlight=aow&page=2)

[ldivinag]

[crying mode]

but i want a supressor...

[/crying mode]

[Stormfeather]

ok, here goes the bank account again. . . .
first it was OLL's. . . .
then it was ammo. . .
now its NFA. . . . . .

my kids didnt need a college education anyways. . . . :D

[Stormfeather]

PM in bound Kev

[artherd]

Guys, if you want to own an NFA weapon in CA this is the way to do it. Kevin knows what he's doing, and will see that you don't get into trouble.

This is actually pretty complex, and things like Quicken Will Maker and the like can quite easily create accidental felons out of you and your loved ones. (infact, they will...) they are not built with the NFA in mind and do not take into account state law either.

Kevin's done the DD.

[ptoguy2002]

After setting up the trust, will you reveiw the NFA paperwork, form 1, form 4, whatever it is?
Or is this even needed?

[asymmetricalwarfar3]

Is that what the fees are for O? A review/look-over to make sure everything is kosher?

[m24armorer]

Tomorrow I will give you guys a link to NFA trusts, it's on a favorite silencer forum. And it works.

[383green]

Basically AOWs, and C&R SBSs/SBRs are CA legal NFA items.

Sound suppressors, MGs, and non-C&R SBSs/SBRs are not.

Hmm, so does this mean that with:

1) $600 NFA trust
2) $250 NFA tax stamp
3) $50 80 year old rusty POS shotgun with a ringed barrel

it would then be legal to cut on the dotted lines?

http://www.nf6x.net/tmp/shotgun2.jpg

Assuming this would be legal, would the resulting very short 80 year old POS shotgun then be considered "transferrable" under NFA rules?

And would the POS be worth the $900 invested until/unless NFA gets overturned, thus immensely de-valuing it along with all of those $10k Sten tube guns? :)

Please forgive me if these are dumb questions. I haven't seen much reason to seriously look into NFA weapons before.

[ke6guj]

It should be legal to cut it as marked. ATF has been approving Form 1's in CA to do exactly that. Nobody's tried to transfer a Form 1'ed C&R SBS/SBR on a Form 4 yet, but I don't know why it wouldn't be transferrable later on. I'm not even thinking about that, could you imagine trying to do a PPT on it that the dealer would have to hold for 2-3months? Easiest is to just plan on it being permanently yours.

I think you may be thinking about "transferrable" as it applies to MG's and if they were made pre/post 86, and that is a different situation there.

If its worth $900, thats a question you have to decide for yourself. If the NFA were to be overturned (doesn't look like that will happen per Heller) then who knows. The devaluing of tube guns is more likely to a overturning of 922(o), the "new MG" ban, which does have a chance of being overturned. That would not affect your SBS.


Remember, that $600 trust can be cost-averaged over multiple NFA items, reducing the "cost" of each gun. And watch out, "tax stamp disease" is just as bad as black rifle disease, so your first tax stamp may not be your last.

Oh, and the tax stamp is $200 to make or transfer an NFA item, except for an AOW Form 4 transfer, which is $5.

[383green]

Thanks for the information, Jack!

Yes, I was thinking of the MG kind of "transferrable", and I wasn't sure if that also applied to other kinds of NFA weapons. Since it appears that it's possible to catch the NFA sickness in CA for a bit south of a grand, I guess I should read up on the details now! :)

That POS shotgun would still be a POS if I threw $800 and a hacksaw at it, but at least it would take up less room in the safe. :rofl2:

ETA: Would I need to travel to Oakland to use your service, Oaklander? I was born there, but I escaped! ;)

[arster]

A lot of basic info, but some of the things discussed such as tax return etc. are addressd and this is an official CA State document.

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/publications/Pamphlets_Living-Trust-English.pdf

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

Hmm, so does this mean that with:

1) $600 NFA trust
2) $250 NFA tax stamp
3) $50 80 year old rusty POS shotgun with a ringed barrel

it would then be legal to cut on the dotted lines?

http://www.nf6x.net/tmp/shotgun2.jpg

Why stop at the dotted line in front? Get that puppy right down to the end of the wood. ;)

BTW, do you have any more rusty $50 shotguns lying around? :)

[383green]

Why stop at the dotted line in front? Get that puppy right down to the end of the wood. ;)

Hmm, now that you mention it, I could probably cut off some of the wood, too! It ain't done until there's a 1/4" of shell hanging out beyond each muzzle! :D

BTW, do you have any more rusty $50 shotguns lying around? :)

Nope, just the one. I think I overpaid, though. :rolleyes:

[oaklander]

Many of you have contacted me with questions about NFA trusts. . .

To answer your questions, I will be be setting up a FREE conference call next week in which interested Calgunners can call in and speak with me, and the attorney I am working with.

Together we will answer your questions about NFA trusts, and NFA law in general.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THIS CONFERENCE CALL IS FOR GENERAL INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY, AND DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE.

The call will be @ 7pm PST this coming Wednesday (7/23/08).

Please EMAIL me if you are interested, and I will give you the conference call "bridge" number and passcode. Please include your real name and your Calguns handle, so I know who you are.

My email address is kevin (at) thomasonlawoffice (dot) com.

Please don't PM me about this, since my PM box is almost full!!!

:)

The conference call bridge can handle up to about 15 callers - so the first 15 people to contact me will be in on this call. I will also be doing subsequent calls, if the interest is high enough on this one.

Kevin

[paco ramirez]

I should really start giving people the RLT that only needs to be filled out and signed. It works too :)

I'll finally be able to buy that PVS-14 and DBAL-A2 I've always wanted after only 10 trust :rolleyes:

[Sam1]

hmm, so does this mean I still can't own a select fire m4?

[bdsmchs]

hmm, so does this mean I still can't own a select fire m4?

Technically, you CAN.

But you won't get the permit from the DOJ that will allow you to posess one. And of course it has to be pre-may 1986.

[GunSlut]

Pre-86 MP-5, 18,000.00, Post 86 dealer sample 1,100.00.

Three post 86 were just purchased in OC.

[ke6guj]

And?

NFA trusts are not a way to get MGs in CA, and expecially not dealer samples.

Who just purchased some DS's in OC?

[Sam1]

And?

NFA trusts are not a way to get MGs in CA, and expecially not dealer samples.

Who just purchased some DS's in OC?

is there any way to actually get a mg if you're not a leo? lol

so if you want a sbr or aow it has to be c&r?

[ke6guj]

is there any way to actually get a mg if you're not a leo? lol For normal people, no. You gotta become a NFA dealer or have a movie studio. Might be a couple other unobtainium options out there.

so if you want a sbr or aow it has to be c&r?Yes, an SBS or SBR would have to be C&R, but an AOW only has to be a non-AW and not a pen gun. Read the AOW/SBS/SBR thread for more info.

[GunSlut]

Who just purchased some DS's in OC?

He has own and posses CA-DOJ Permits: MG, SB, DD and AW and the Fed NFA. Most NFA's in this state are dealers, they can't own. He can, one of three in the state. Good friend to have.

He's high profile, takes about 30 seconds to search him out. You'll never see him posting here though. He does post a lot on a local ccw site.

[ar15barrels]

I have a friend in OC that has all the state permits for MG, SBR, Suppressor, DD etc...

[383green]

I have a friend in OC that has all the state permits for MG, SBR, Suppressor, DD etc...

Jealous of your friend, I am. :)

[woodey]

What if we bought into or built a "war" or "weapons" museum. We could all get Curator statis. We would of corse need to live fire the weapons to gain a better understanding of then. At least I think museums can own NFA items?

[xxG3xx]

so has anyone tried this yet and if so

:useless:

[tonelar]

i'll try it- is one NFA Trust applicable to more than one weapon?

[hoffmang]

i'll try it- is one NFA Trust applicable to more than one weapon?

You can use the trust to hold as many NFA arms as are legal in your place of possession.

-Gene

[AaronHorrocks]

Enlighten me: what NFA items would be CA-legal?

Federally, anything over .50 cal is a "Destructive Device".
In California, anything over .60 cal is a "Destructive Device".

This has me drooling over the idea of picking something up that's under .60 cal, but over .50 cal! :D

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

PM Sent. ;)

[CABilly]

Federally, anything over .50 cal is a "Destructive Device".
In California, anything over .60 cal is a "Destructive Device".

This has me drooling over the idea of picking something up that's under .60 cal, but over .50 cal! :D

So, with the stamp I can legally own and possess a .50 BMG rifle?

[ke6guj]

nope. A .50BMG is not an NFA destructive device, so you can't get a stamp for it. And even then, there is no exemption the CA .50BMG rifle ban for those with tax stamps. Now, there is an exemption for C&R rifles. So, a Boys Rifle rebarreled with a .50BMG barrel should still be C&R and would be exempt.

What Aaron was talking about was stuff between .51" and .60" that is legal in CA. You'd need a DD tax stamp to satisfy federal law, but be unregulated in CA. And, there are some items that are between .51" and .60" that have federal DD-exemptions due to "sporting purposes". Such as the 14.5mm JDJ, a necked up .50BMG with a 14.5mm bullet, around .58".

[luchador768]

Can NFA trusts be used to transfer registered California AW's to your children? My friend is wondering where his Bushmaster will go when he dies.

[MotorT]

Can a trust be done for multiple people? Say my friend, his wife, me and my wife?

[pullnshoot25]

Can a trust be done for multiple people? Say my friend, his wife, me and my wife?

+1, I am curious about this too.

[ElToro]

yes, can I name my wife and 1 year old boy as trustees / beneficiarys so they can shoot and not worry? will you help with completing appropriate forms after trust is created ? can it be amended if i have another child ? can i add a brother /father/ friend ? what happens if i die. i dont want anybody getting in trouble for posession, but i dont my stuff detroyed

regarding SBS..so i can hack my beater A5 thats older than 50 years down to just past the end of the mag tube and cut the stock way down for that Clyde Barrow commemorative look or a old beater double barrell as described above, but i cn not put a pistol grip and a 14 inch barrell on my 870 or 11-87 ?

[COBRA MASTER]

i'll be calling u

I have been approached by quite a few people interested in NFA Trusts. I am currently researching the issue and expect to be able to draw these up very soon.

Just wanted to put this out there so that people didn't think I had forgotten about them.

:)

EDIT: the fee for these will be $600.

[HkUSP45]

whats the point of having a trust if you can't own a suppressor.

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

whats the point of having a trust if you can't own a suppressor.

Short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, AOWs

[HkUSP45]

Short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, AOWs

With this trust, would you be able to get a suppressor out of state (AZ). If you have a home there? Or is this trust for CA only

[lunde]

I bought an AAC Aviator suppressor two years ago. I live in California, and used my California address on the Form 4. I obviously keep it out of state, and attached a letter to my Form 4 that specifiied the storage address. This letter became an attachment to my Form 4 when it came back (approved). If the out-of-state storage location happens to be NFA-friendly, meaning that the CLEO of the county will sign off on the reverse side of the Form 4, there is no need to set up a trust. In my case, I was able to get the CLEO sign off quite easily. Of course, I needed to have the FBI fingerprint cards code, and submit photos, but that is simply part of the process.

If you plan to purchase multiple NFA items, or if the CLEO of the county where it will be stored is not NFA-friendly, setting up a trust probably has some value. For the limited number of NFA items that can be kept in-state, and given that for many of us the chance of the CLEO signing off on the Form 4 is somewhere between zero and none, the trust may be your only venue.

Anyway, just my $0.02 from my own experience...

[bwiese]

I bought an AAC Aviator suppressor two years ago. I live in California, and used my California address on the Form 4. I obviously keep it out of state, and attached a letter to my Form 4 that specifiied the storage address. This letter became an attachment to my Form 4 when it came back (approved). If the out-of-state storage location happens to be NFA-friendly, meaning that the CLEO of the county will sign off on the reverse side of the Form 4, there is no need to set up a trust. In my case, I was able to get the CLEO sign off quite easily. Of course, I needed to have the FBI fingerprint cards code, and submit photos, but that is simply part of the process.

If you plan to purchase multiple NFA items, or if the CLEO of the county where it will be stored is not NFA-friendly, setting up a trust probably has some value. For the limited number of NFA items that can be kept in-state, and given that for many of us the chance of the CLEO signing off on the Form 4 is somewhere between zero and none, the trust may be your only venue.


Dr Ken,

This is interesting. Do you have 'residency' in the other state, or did you just file Form 4 as "Hi, I'm a Californian but won't bring this back into CA."?

[lunde]

I did the latter. I spoke with the NFA branch of the ATF who advised that I should use my California address on the Form 4, but that the CLEO signoff should be from the county of the other state where it is intended to be stored. Because there is no place on a Form 4 to specify that the storage location is somewhere other than my physical address, I included the following in a letter that became an attachment to my Form 4:

Attachment to ATF Form 4 (5320.4) for <full name here>
Weapon Serial Number: weapon serial number here>

The firearm being transferred by this Form 4 shall be stored at the physical address below, in accordance with ATF regulations:

<physical address and phone number here>
The process was remarkably simple. I sent the Form 4 to the ATF on 05/16/2007, and it was approved on 06/11/2007.

[lunde]

Oh, and to clarify, I have residency only in California. When purchasing NFA items, the residency requirement that we know (and hate) for handguns simply does not apply. But, you need to have an out-of-state storage location if your state of residency does allow NFA items to be possessed. For some people, this is no small task.

[trashman]

Wow...this *is* an interesting wrinkle. Suddenly the transition manager job I might have a shot at in South Dakota looks really interesting...

--Neill

[evollep3]

to bring this back alive would the trust allow SBR's such as ak's and ar's? or is it just shotguns?

[ke6guj]

No, a trust does not allow for modern SBS/SBRs. A trust only exempts you from needing CLEO sign-off. It does not exempt you from any needed CADOJ permits. Basically only CA-legal NFA items such AOWs, C&R SBx, and DDs between .51" and .60" are available with a trust. Those same items are available to people without a trust, if their CLEO was willing to sign off on it.

[oaklander]

Folks, I am getting swamped with 2A work, and thus need to refocus my time on the 2A work. I have contacted another "trusted" (pun intended) lawyer who is located in California, and can do these trusts. It appears that he will do them at the same price.

IF you are interested in an NFA trust, please contact:

David Duringer
1-888-929-9455
info@lawnews.tv
GunTrust.org

[joefrank64k]

Thanks for the update!

[Notorious]

Tomorrow I will give you guys a link to NFA trusts, it's on a favorite silencer forum. And it works.

Updates?

The main idea is to make sure that the trust, by its operation, never creates an illegal situation. This has to remain true now, 20 years from now, 40 years from now, etc. . .

BUT, please, please, please make sure that you have a lawyer who is familiar with NFA issues review the completed document before you submit it to the ATF.

There is simply too much at risk to attempt to save a few bucks on something like this.

True. Too many people try to save a buck only to end up spending more bucks to clean up the mess they made. Then they expect a lawyer to work miracles to save them from themselves.

I've read into the use of NFA trusts since they became widely known. It seems the common places where the legality of ownership comes into question are:

- someone other than trustee in possession
- trustee unable to serve, or legally disabled from possession
- beneficiary legally disabled from possession
- situations arising from a trust merger

Again, I've seen a lot of innuendo from lawyers, but I'd like to hear specifics of why Willmaker trusts are deficient.

Pretty much where you pointed it out... Willmaker and those fill in the blank trusts do not take into account the 3rd party or 4th party actions that may arise when the trust is exercised by operation of law. Not to get into specfics but the way a trust operates, sometimes people who are not covered in your original intent becomes involved, which can be tricky when it comes to NFA items.